Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > In some individuals, acupuncture alone can result in weight loss. I > just feel that a personalized combination of techniques works best. > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then? Kelvin --- " on·ly " ADJECTIVE: Alone in kind or class; sole: an only child; the only one left. Standing alone by reason of superiority or excellence. ADVERB: Without anyone or anything else; alone: room for only one passenger. At the very least: If you would only come home. The story was only too true. And nothing else or more: I only work here. Exclusively; solely: facts known only to us. In the last analysis or final outcome: actions that will only make things worse. With the final result; nevertheless: received a raise only to be laid off. As recently as: called me only last month. In the immediate past: only just saw them. CONJUNCTION: Were it not that; except. With the restriction that; but: You may go, only be careful. However; and yet: The merchandise is well made, only we can't use it. --- > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > >> > >> Only when part of a comprehensive strategy include diet, herbs, > >> exercise, perhaps behavioral therapy. > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Ha! Enjoyed your sense of humor. But it has nothing to do with the issue of Chinese medical terminology, and I don't feel obligated to answer your obvious distraction from the issues at hand. On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then? > > Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then? > > > > Kelvin I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting that our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when is medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because they believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the subject matter? Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts has a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging misconceptions that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical terminology in Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so that databases and digital information can make more knowledge available. After all, we are living in an international world and we are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe and requires a consensus in many different languages. CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of tens of thousands of educated practitioners? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3) translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself? Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun " of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation but ignore that inconsistancy. Glad to meet you Eric Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then? > > > > > > Kelvin > > > I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting that > our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional > rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when is > medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? > Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of > medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because they > believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the > subject matter? > > Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke > about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts has > a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of > Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging misconceptions > that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. > > There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical terminology in > Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people > translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in China, > Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international > meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese > medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize > misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so > that databases and digital information can make more knowledge > available. After all, we are living in an international world and we > are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe and > requires a consensus in many different languages. > > CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. > The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into > English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western > authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 > technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation > of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide > professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State > Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese > Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference > standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of > these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. > > You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your > terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't > understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of > tens of thousands of educated practitioners? > > Eric > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Thought you would like that Z'ev, but isn't it you who distracted the thread with the Chinese medical terminology in a weight loss post? Hmmmmm....? Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > Ha! > > Enjoyed your sense of humor. But it has nothing to do with the issue > of Chinese medical terminology, and I don't feel obligated to answer > your obvious distraction from the issues at hand. > > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then? > > > > Kelvin > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:18 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for > there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person > is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan > Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3) > translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but > not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When > you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put > in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself? Kelvin, one of the problems of the e-mail medium is that assumptions that are made about their authors that may be incorrect. I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about you or your practice, so there is no need to get 'personal' about this. If I respond to what I perceive to be problems in how Chinese medicine is communicated, it has nothing to do with the author, who may live half-way around the world and I've never met. Now something about myself. I've studied the Nan Jing for eighteen years. In fact, I have been writing a book of commentary on the Nan Jing for the last few years. In my opinion, difficulty 75 expounds on one of the most sophisticated aspects of five phase theory in the classical literature, namely that one can treat channels other than the afflicted one in order to resolve a pattern. And further, I have been a practitioner of Chinese medicine, full time, for 24 years. My practice includes acupuncture, and the Nan Jing is one of my major texts for inspiration and ideas. Study and practice are inseparable in my mind. There are many techniques that can be used in acupuncture, and different schools of thought, some of which are based on the Nan Jing. None of them involve sedation, which means to " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . I would just like to see effective discussion on this list based on accurate terminology, that is all. > > Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for > weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun " > of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation > but ignore that inconsistancy. The point of my replies is that every case is unique, and that acupuncture is often effective, but is best practiced in conjunction with other modalities in treatment. Necessary but often insufficient. In other words, acupuncture can be very helpful for patients with obesity, but that each patient has to take responsibility for working on their own condition in order to get results. In some cases, if the patient is already eating well and following a healthy lifestyle, and is motivated to improve their health, acupuncture in and of itself may be enough to resolve their condition. Chinese medicine looks at the patient from different angles, with flexibility, and chooses treatment accordingly. > > Glad to meet you Eric > > Kelvin > > > Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " > <smilinglotus> wrote: >> >>> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: >>> >>>> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean > then? >>>> >>>> Kelvin >> >> >> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting > that >> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional >> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when > is >> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? >> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of >> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because > they >> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the >> subject matter? >> >> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke >> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts > has >> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of >> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging > misconceptions >> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. >> >> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical > terminology in >> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people >> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in > China, >> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international >> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese >> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize >> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so >> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge >> available. After all, we are living in an international world and > we >> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe > and >> requires a consensus in many different languages. >> >> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. >> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated > into >> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western >> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 >> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World > Federation >> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide >> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State >> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese >> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference >> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of >> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. >> >> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your >> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't >> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes > of >> tens of thousands of educated practitioners? >> >> Eric >> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Irrelevance is in the eyes of the beholder. I thought it was quite germane to the discussion at hand. On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:21 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > Thought you would like that Z'ev, but isn't it you who distracted > the thread with the Chinese medical terminology in a weight loss > post? Hmmmmm....? > > > Kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 In a message dated 1/16/2006 4:19:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, zrosenbe writes: Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what acupuncture does because of terms like this. I guess I missed something here, are we stuck on the term Xie Fa drainage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any difference which word one uses? Oakland, CA 94609 - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Monday, January 16, 2006 10:18 AM Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3) translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself? Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun " of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation but ignore that inconsistancy. Glad to meet you Eric Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then? > > > > > > Kelvin > > > I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting that > our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional > rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when is > medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? > Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of > medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because they > believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the > subject matter? > > Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke > about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts has > a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of > Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging misconceptions > that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. > > There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical terminology in > Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people > translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in China, > Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international > meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese > medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize > misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so > that databases and digital information can make more knowledge > available. After all, we are living in an international world and we > are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe and > requires a consensus in many different languages. > > CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. > The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into > English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western > authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 > technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation > of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide > professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State > Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese > Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference > standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of > these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. > > You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your > terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't > understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of > tens of thousands of educated practitioners? > > Eric > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what acupuncture does because of terms like this. Z'ev On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, wrote: > and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any > difference which word one uses? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what acupuncture does because of terms like this. >>>> Interesting statement, what do you think acupuncture " Does " Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 PM Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what acupuncture does because of terms like this. Z'ev On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, wrote: > and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any > difference which word one uses? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 Whatever it 'does' it doesn't sedate. Sedate: calm or put to sleep by use of a sedative drug. On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:26 PM, wrote: > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what > acupuncture does because of terms like this. >>>>> > Interesting statement, what do you think acupuncture " Does " > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 PM > Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what > acupuncture does because of terms like this. > > Z'ev > On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, wrote: > >> and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any >> difference which word one uses? >> >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . >>>>English is certainly not my subject but is that the only meaning of the word sedation? Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Monday, January 16, 2006 11:52 AM Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:18 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for > there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person > is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan > Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3) > translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but > not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When > you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put > in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself? Kelvin, one of the problems of the e-mail medium is that assumptions that are made about their authors that may be incorrect. I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about you or your practice, so there is no need to get 'personal' about this. If I respond to what I perceive to be problems in how Chinese medicine is communicated, it has nothing to do with the author, who may live half-way around the world and I've never met. Now something about myself. I've studied the Nan Jing for eighteen years. In fact, I have been writing a book of commentary on the Nan Jing for the last few years. In my opinion, difficulty 75 expounds on one of the most sophisticated aspects of five phase theory in the classical literature, namely that one can treat channels other than the afflicted one in order to resolve a pattern. And further, I have been a practitioner of Chinese medicine, full time, for 24 years. My practice includes acupuncture, and the Nan Jing is one of my major texts for inspiration and ideas. Study and practice are inseparable in my mind. There are many techniques that can be used in acupuncture, and different schools of thought, some of which are based on the Nan Jing. None of them involve sedation, which means to " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . I would just like to see effective discussion on this list based on accurate terminology, that is all. > > Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for > weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun " > of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation > but ignore that inconsistancy. The point of my replies is that every case is unique, and that acupuncture is often effective, but is best practiced in conjunction with other modalities in treatment. Necessary but often insufficient. In other words, acupuncture can be very helpful for patients with obesity, but that each patient has to take responsibility for working on their own condition in order to get results. In some cases, if the patient is already eating well and following a healthy lifestyle, and is motivated to improve their health, acupuncture in and of itself may be enough to resolve their condition. Chinese medicine looks at the patient from different angles, with flexibility, and chooses treatment accordingly. > > Glad to meet you Eric > > Kelvin > > > Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " > <smilinglotus> wrote: >> >>> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: >>> >>>> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean > then? >>>> >>>> Kelvin >> >> >> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting > that >> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional >> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when > is >> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? >> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of >> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because > they >> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the >> subject matter? >> >> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke >> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts > has >> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of >> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging > misconceptions >> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. >> >> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical > terminology in >> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people >> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in > China, >> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international >> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese >> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize >> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so >> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge >> available. After all, we are living in an international world and > we >> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe > and >> requires a consensus in many different languages. >> >> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. >> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated > into >> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western >> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 >> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World > Federation >> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide >> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State >> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese >> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference >> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of >> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. >> >> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your >> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't >> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes > of >> tens of thousands of educated practitioners? >> >> Eric >> > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > http:// > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > absolutely necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2006 Report Share Posted January 16, 2006 How about regulate or encourage of flow? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <zrosenbe >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine >Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol >Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:33:48 -0800 > >Whatever it 'does' it doesn't sedate. > >Sedate: calm or put to sleep by use of a sedative drug. > > >On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:26 PM, wrote: > > > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what > > acupuncture does because of terms like this. > >>>>> > > Interesting statement, what do you think acupuncture " Does " > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 PM > > Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > > > > > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite confused about what > > acupuncture does because of terms like this. > > > > Z'ev > > On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, wrote: > > > >> and if both know what one means by sedation does it make any > >> difference which word one uses? > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > How about regulate or encourage of flow? Too vague. Even Deadman's book, which is generally a really nice book on acupuncture, has a few issues with vague terminology like this. All the different technical nuances of moving qi are lumped under " regulating qi. " No English distinction is obvious between the Chinese terms xing, tiao, and li, which all describe different nuances of " regulating qi. " Of course, most people don't care, but I think that simplifying clinical concepts is not particularly useful to the profession. It is hard to know what concepts we are missing if someone has already dumbed-down the subject before teaching it to us. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Eric states, " Westerners who don't understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of tens of thousands of educated practitioners? " You have eluded to an important but commonly overlooked issue plaguing our profession, a lack of educational rigor or standards. The concept of OM/TCM as an education in the US has become less than ideal, which is why I think that we have such disparity w/i the profession. The schools that are CA approved vs. those who are not. Even the programs that are CA recognized are not necessarily up to Asian standards. Most of our schools try hard but few offer most of the pre-med type science courses that are taught to students even in China. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Z'ev you are absolutely right It’s amazing that in this profession people still want to use erroneous words to convey important clinical information, No Doctor in china would use jing4su4de-Sedate to convey the meaning of xie4-Drain. Practitioners need to start looking critically at their sources of information because not all sources are critical of their content. And some practitioners may think that it may not be important as long as both know , but that will mean that the student or any one else that would like to look up a term in a dictionary would not find the association that is made Because the person using the ill translated term will know the intent but they will not know the meaning either. Gabriel Fuentes --- <zrosenbe wrote: > Whatever it 'does' it doesn't sedate. > > Sedate: calm or put to sleep by use of a sedative > drug. > > > On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:26 PM, wrote: > > > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite > confused about what > > acupuncture does because of terms like this. > >>>>> > > Interesting statement, what do you think > acupuncture " Does " > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 PM > > Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture > Protocol > > > > > > Yes, it does. Most students I know are quite > confused about what > > acupuncture does because of terms like this. > > > > Z'ev > > On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:08 PM, > wrote: > > > >> and if both know what one means by sedation does > it make any > >> difference which word one uses? > >> > >> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, > click, http:// > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > http:// > > > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside > > the group requires prior permission from the > author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print > this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > -------- > > > > > > a.. Visit your group > " Chinese Medicine " on the web. > > > > b.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Thanks, Eric. I appreciate your comments on this. Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote: > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then? > > > > Kelvin I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting that our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when is medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because they believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the subject matter? Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts has a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging misconceptions that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical terminology in Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so that databases and digital information can make more knowledge available. After all, we are living in an international world and we are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe and requires a consensus in many different languages. CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of tens of thousands of educated practitioners? Eric Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Kelvin, Can we kindly put an end to this weird one-upmanship? It wastes my time and isn't what I look to this list for. Thank you, acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3) translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself? Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun " of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation but ignore that inconsistancy. Glad to meet you Eric Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean then? > > > > > > Kelvin > > > I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting that > our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional > rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when is > medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? > Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of > medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because they > believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the > subject matter? > > Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke > about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts has > a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of > Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging misconceptions > that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. > > There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical terminology in > Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people > translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in China, > Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international > meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese > medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize > misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so > that databases and digital information can make more knowledge > available. After all, we are living in an international world and we > are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe and > requires a consensus in many different languages. > > CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. > The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into > English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western > authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 > technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation > of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide > professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State > Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese > Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference > standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of > these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. > > You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your > terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't > understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes of > tens of thousands of educated practitioners? > > Eric > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Anyway, the Nang Jing ch75. Wood (east) is replete metal (west) is vacuous. Normally one uses metal to level wood but in this case it is vacuous so you drain the son of wood (east) which is fire (south) and supplement water (north)to obtain metal's leveling. Now forget about channels and think body segments. If you look on page 47 of " Five Elements and Ten Stems " by Kiiko Matsumoto and Steven Birch you will see earth at the center, metal at the west, liver at the east, fire at the south and water at the north. The abdomen is one segment of the body and it can also be divided into other segments. Every part of the body can be so divided. Take the shoulder for example, if you have shoulder pain at LI15 (the north of the arm) you needle to the east(left) and west(right). Now if you want to add a controller to this you'll add earth. Such as st38, the middle(earth)of the foot yang ming on the lower leg to control the water (north) of hand yang ming. If you put that in your book, Z'ev, you'll owe me five bucks. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:18 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > > > > > Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for > > there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person > > is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan > > Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3) > > translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but > > not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When > > you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put > > in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself? > > Kelvin, one of the problems of the e-mail medium is that assumptions > that are made about their authors that may be incorrect. I'll be the > first to admit I know nothing about you or your practice, so there is > no need to get 'personal' about this. If I respond to what I > perceive to be problems in how Chinese medicine is communicated, it > has nothing to do with the author, who may live half-way around the > world and I've never met. > > Now something about myself. I've studied the Nan Jing for eighteen > years. In fact, I have been writing a book of commentary on the Nan > Jing for the last few years. In my opinion, difficulty 75 expounds > on one of the most sophisticated aspects of five phase theory in the > classical literature, namely that one can treat channels other than > the afflicted one in order to resolve a pattern. And further, I > have been a practitioner of Chinese medicine, full time, for 24 > years. My practice includes acupuncture, and the Nan Jing is one of > my major texts for inspiration and ideas. Study and practice are > inseparable in my mind. There are many techniques that can be used > in acupuncture, and different schools of thought, some of which are > based on the Nan Jing. None of them involve sedation, which means to > " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . I would just > like to see effective discussion on this list based on accurate > terminology, that is all. > > > > Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for > > weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun " > > of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation > > but ignore that inconsistancy. > > The point of my replies is that every case is unique, and that > acupuncture is often effective, but is best practiced in conjunction > with other modalities in treatment. Necessary but often > insufficient. In other words, acupuncture can be very helpful for > patients with obesity, but that each patient has to take > responsibility for working on their own condition in order to get > results. In some cases, if the patient is already eating well and > following a healthy lifestyle, and is motivated to improve their > health, acupuncture in and of itself may be enough to resolve their > condition. Chinese medicine looks at the patient from different > angles, with flexibility, and chooses treatment accordingly. > > > > > > Glad to meet you Eric > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " > > <smilinglotus> wrote: > >> > >>> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > >>> > >>>> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean > > then? > >>>> > >>>> Kelvin > >> > >> > >> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting > > that > >> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional > >> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when > > is > >> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? > >> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of > >> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because > > they > >> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the > >> subject matter? > >> > >> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke > >> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts > > has > >> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of > >> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging > > misconceptions > >> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. > >> > >> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical > > terminology in > >> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people > >> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in > > China, > >> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international > >> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese > >> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize > >> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so > >> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge > >> available. After all, we are living in an international world and > > we > >> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe > > and > >> requires a consensus in many different languages. > >> > >> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. > >> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated > > into > >> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western > >> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 > >> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World > > Federation > >> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide > >> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State > >> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese > >> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference > >> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of > >> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. > >> > >> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your > >> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't > >> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes > > of > >> tens of thousands of educated practitioners? > >> > >> Eric > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > http:// > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Sorry to waste your time . Maybe if you can post a list for me as to what it is that you look to this list for, I can stay on topic for you. Your humble servant, Kelvin Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky <> wrote: > > Kelvin, > > Can we kindly put an end to this weird one-upmanship? It wastes my time and isn't what I look to this list for. > > Thank you, > > > acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills> wrote: > > > Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for > there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person > is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan > Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3) > translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but > not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When > you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put > in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself? > > Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for > weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun " > of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation > but ignore that inconsistancy. > > Glad to meet you Eric > > Kelvin > > > Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " > <smilinglotus> wrote: > > > > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > > > > > Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean > then? > > > > > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting > that > > our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional > > rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when > is > > medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? > > Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of > > medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because > they > > believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the > > subject matter? > > > > Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke > > about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts > has > > a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of > > Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging > misconceptions > > that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. > > > > There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical > terminology in > > Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people > > translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in > China, > > Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international > > meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese > > medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize > > misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so > > that databases and digital information can make more knowledge > > available. After all, we are living in an international world and > we > > are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe > and > > requires a consensus in many different languages. > > > > CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. > > The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated > into > > English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western > > authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 > > technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World > Federation > > of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide > > professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State > > Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese > > Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference > > standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of > > these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. > > > > You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your > > terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't > > understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes > of > > tens of thousands of educated practitioners? > > > > Eric > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 We may be onto something. Most of my patients seem calm (another meaning of sedate)after a treatment of needles but they don't look drained. If we talk endorphins, then Z'ev maybey right about sedation being drugs? Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus DOM " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . > >>>>English is certainly not my subject but is that the only meaning of the word sedation? > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, January 16, 2006 11:52 AM > Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > > > On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:18 AM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > > > > > Why? Because so many people get caught up in picking on people for > > there translation (or spellin')that they distract from what a person > > is saying. (Remember, he came chastising into my post) Take Nan > > Jing ch75 in Z'ev's case. He knew not only that xie (sorry, xie3) > > translated to drain but also the history of that translation, but > > not the meaning of Ch75. So are you a translater or a Doctor? When > > you drain a point do you use sedation techniques or do you just put > > in a needle and hope it will " drain " , like a bath tub, all by itself? > > Kelvin, one of the problems of the e-mail medium is that assumptions > that are made about their authors that may be incorrect. I'll be the > first to admit I know nothing about you or your practice, so there is > no need to get 'personal' about this. If I respond to what I > perceive to be problems in how Chinese medicine is communicated, it > has nothing to do with the author, who may live half-way around the > world and I've never met. > > Now something about myself. I've studied the Nan Jing for eighteen > years. In fact, I have been writing a book of commentary on the Nan > Jing for the last few years. In my opinion, difficulty 75 expounds > on one of the most sophisticated aspects of five phase theory in the > classical literature, namely that one can treat channels other than > the afflicted one in order to resolve a pattern. And further, I > have been a practitioner of Chinese medicine, full time, for 24 > years. My practice includes acupuncture, and the Nan Jing is one of > my major texts for inspiration and ideas. Study and practice are > inseparable in my mind. There are many techniques that can be used > in acupuncture, and different schools of thought, some of which are > based on the Nan Jing. None of them involve sedation, which means to > " administer a sedative drug to calm or put to sleep " . I would just > like to see effective discussion on this list based on accurate > terminology, that is all. > > > > Then Z'ez say's that acupuncture, by itself, DOESN'T work for > > weightloss except when it DOES, but all you get is me " Making fun " > > of Z'ev's love for translation. You want consistancy in translation > > but ignore that inconsistancy. > > The point of my replies is that every case is unique, and that > acupuncture is often effective, but is best practiced in conjunction > with other modalities in treatment. Necessary but often > insufficient. In other words, acupuncture can be very helpful for > patients with obesity, but that each patient has to take > responsibility for working on their own condition in order to get > results. In some cases, if the patient is already eating well and > following a healthy lifestyle, and is motivated to improve their > health, acupuncture in and of itself may be enough to resolve their > condition. Chinese medicine looks at the patient from different > angles, with flexibility, and chooses treatment accordingly. > > > > > > Glad to meet you Eric > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " > > <smilinglotus> wrote: > >> > >>> On Jan 15, 2006, at 2:00 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > >>> > >>>> Not to pick nits Z'ev but which " only " definition do you mean > > then? > >>>> > >>>> Kelvin > >> > >> > >> I'm a bit confused why you are making fun of Z'ev for suggesting > > that > >> our profession should have at least a slight amount of professional > >> rigor and accurate transmission of clinical concepts. Since when > > is > >> medicine something that should be practiced with minimal accuracy? > >> Even if you don't personally value the accurate transmission of > >> medical knowledge, is it necessary to mock someone just because > > they > >> believe that practitioners should have a clear knowledge of the > >> subject matter? > >> > >> Terminology in Chinese medicine is not some trivial debate to joke > >> about. The way we express and understand Chinese medical concepts > > has > >> a direct bearing on our clinical success. Poor transmission of > >> Chinese medical concepts has resulted in wide-ranging > > misconceptions > >> that divide our community and compromise our patient's health. > >> > >> There is no debate on the importance of Chinese medical > > terminology in > >> Asia. Chinese doctors laugh out loud when they hear that people > >> translate xie as sedation. The highest people in the field in > > China, > >> Japan, Korea, and Vietnam have all repeatedly held international > >> meetings via the WHO to standardize a huge body of terms in Chinese > >> medicine. Terminology needs to be consistent to minimize > >> misconceptions and translation errors, but it also is necessary so > >> that databases and digital information can make more knowledge > >> available. After all, we are living in an international world and > > we > >> are members of an enormous healthcare system that spans the globe > > and > >> requires a consensus in many different languages. > >> > >> CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. > >> The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated > > into > >> English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western > >> authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 > >> technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World > > Federation > >> of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide > >> professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State > >> Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese > >> Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference > >> standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). None of > >> these groups advocate the word sedation for xie, BTW. > >> > >> You may get a nice ego boost by making Z'ev the butt of your > >> terminology jokes. But do you realize that Westerners who don't > >> understand basic concepts in CM are actually the butt of the jokes > > of > >> tens of thousands of educated practitioners? > >> > >> Eric > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http:// > > toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > http:// > > and adjust > > accordingly. > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside > > the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if > > absolutely necessary. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Hi Kelvin, Z'ev, Alon, Eric and others. Every few months we have a foray into this topic, which I think is good because I believe it is important. I think two very good points were made in recent posts. Z'ev recently pointed out that it is difficult for *students* to understand and learn TCM when the nomenclature is so unclear. And Eric has (below) alluded to the craziness of dumbing down a subject before you teach it. I think this is critical. If everyone really was already totally versed in the nuances of distinction between all the concepts of Chinese medicine we could possibly use any mixture of systems of nomenclature and still understand each other in discusssion (though even here there would be misunderstanding in reading the written word). But for students it is sheer hell - and maybe an impossible task. In many fields of study it is common to dumb a subject down in order to write a layman's guide - and I think this is good - it can give the layman a taste of the subject, stir interest and enthusiasm and encourage further investigation. But to dumb down before you teach to serious students must be sheer madness. There is only one possible argument I can think of for dumbing down the subject before teaching it: that is if you don't believe that the historical conceptual framework of the subject is worth studying at all. If you have abandoned the theory of Chinese medicine and are looking for your own explanations of why it works. With respect, might this be your position Alon? It would explain your view on nomenclature. All the best, David Chinese Medicine , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus> wrote: > > Chinese Medicine , " mike Bowser " > <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote: > > > > How about regulate or encourage of flow? > > Too vague. Even Deadman's book, which is generally a really nice book > on acupuncture, has a few issues with vague terminology like this. > All the different technical nuances of moving qi are lumped under > " regulating qi. " No English distinction is obvious between the > Chinese terms xing, tiao, and li, which all describe different nuances > of " regulating qi. " Of course, most people don't care, but I think > that simplifying clinical concepts is not particularly useful to the > profession. It is hard to know what concepts we are missing if > someone has already dumbed-down the subject before teaching it to us. > > Eric > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Eric Brand wrote: <snip> > CM has over 30,000 terms that are defined in Chinese dictionaries. > The most commonly-used 5,500 terms have been defined, translated into > English, and extensively researched by numerous Asian and Western > authorities. Standard English terms exist for this group of 5500 > technical terms in the World Health Organization, the World Federation > of Societies (a group that coordinates worldwide > professional organizations, schools, hospitals, etc), China's State > Administration of TCM, and in the Practical Dictionary of Chinese > Medicine (a landmark English text that has provided the reference > standards for several major TCM publishers in the West). Hi Eric! Is this list of 5,500 terms on the web? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Chinese Medicine , petetheisen <petetheisen@v...> wrote: > Hi Eric! > > Is this list of 5,500 terms on the web? Nope. The World Federation of Societies is finalizing their term recommendations now. The State Administration of TCM (of the PRC) has meetings over the next few months to decide upon their standard terms. The WHO has still not released their official list. All this stuff is happening right now. The only published term list and dictionary of any size is the Practical Dictionary of , by Wiseman and Feng (Paradigm Publications). Xie Zhu-Fan has a term list published, but it lacks definitions and obscures many Chinese medical terms with biomedical nomenclature. Chen & Chen's materia medica has a nice glossary of about 160 common terms, and the new Bensky materia medica has a good glossary of about 50 terms. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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