Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Thanks Attilio. I could make a case for a number of different approaches but I wanted the correct one. Regards, P.T. Ferrance - Attilio D'Alberto Chinese Medicine Friday, January 06, 2006 3:49 PM RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Hi P.T. Sorry, just noticed this message. Here is the answer to your question: 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Editor in Chief Times 07786 198900 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of P.T. Ferrance 06 January 2006 00:51 Chinese Medicine Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Hi Attilio, Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are we tonifying or draining? P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. - Attilio D'Alberto Chinese Medicine Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Hi P.T. Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there are three depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want to work on. But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard. It's only the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal acupuncture. No moxa is used, but TENS can be. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. Company Director The Earth Health Clinic 0208 367 8378 enquiries <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> www.theearthhealthclinic.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of P.T. Ferrance 05 January 2006 22:14 Chinese Medicine Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Hi Attilio, As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the Sp and St and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger, ignorance. these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which have their equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a lot more than sticking in needles at times. Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD chusauli See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto >Chinese Medicine ><Chinese Medicine > >RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol >Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:32:53 -0000 > >Robert, > >Well, it was the protocol used in China where I first observed it and as >you >have to pay for everything in China, success is paramount. So yes, I say it >does work. If you remember a few members used it when I first described it >last year with great success. > >It would be good to test the protocol in a research study as the auricular >acupuncture that often used doesn't always work. > >As for your comments about not using Chinese medicine to loose weight. Do >you really know how weight gain occurs. Don't you think we need to >rebalance >the Spleen and Stomach? Or should be just pat people on the back for most >disorders? > >Warm regards, > >Attilio D'Alberto >Doctor of (Beijing, China) >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. >Company Director >The Earth Health Clinic >0208 367 8378 >enquiries > <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> www.theearthhealthclinic.com > > >Chinese Medicine >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Robert >Chu >06 January 2006 01:12 >Chinese Medicine >RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > >Hi Attilio, > >Nice formula, but does it really work? My opinion is 1 needle (safety >pin)threaded from Du26 to the other lip and sealed probably does more. > >But seriously, has anyone used this protocol successfully and have it work? > >What were your results? > >Personally, I think if they are willing to take in less food, exercise >more, > >stress less, have emotional support, it's better than this protocol. > > >Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD >chusauli > >See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com > > > > > > > " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto > >Chinese Medicine > ><Chinese Medicine > > >RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > >Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:15:00 -0000 > > > >Hi Andrea, > > > >This is the protocol I observed in use at Zhong Ri hospital in Beijing. > >Most > >patients were having it either every day or every two days. > > > >Here it is again. I think its still in the files section as well. > > > > > >1. Zhongwan - Ren12 > >2. Xiawan - Ren 10 > >3. Qihai - Ren 6 > >4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 > >5. Daheng - SP15 > >6. Huaroumen - ST24 > >7. Wailing - ST26 > > > >Points to be used in all weight loss cases, which reflects a 'cookbook' > >approach rather than the use of a pattern analysis. > > > > > > > >The needles are inserted, manipulated and left for 25 mins. Those on the > >larger size are given a 10 mins on the super size TENS machine. > > > > > >Warm regards, > > > >Attilio D'Alberto > >Doctor of (Beijing, China) > >B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. > >Company Director > >The Earth Health Clinic > >0208 367 8378 > >enquiries > > <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> www.theearthhealthclinic.com > > > > > >Chinese Medicine > >Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Andrea > >Beth Damsky > >05 January 2006 15:58 > >Chinese Medicine > >Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > > > > >Attilio, > > > > Would you kindly share this protocol with the list again? I have > >patients > >asking me for this sort of treatment regularly. > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > <attiliodalberto wrote: > > Hi all, > > > >Some members will remember around a year and a half ago, I posted to > >the group the 7 acupoint (10 needles) weight loss protocol. A few > >members used it and reported back with positive results. > > > >I'm thinking of writing this weight loss protocol up into an article > >and would appreciate if any members could share their case studies > >with me that used this protocol. > > > >Please contact me off list at attiliodalberto > > > >Kind regards > > > >Attilio > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > >http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > > > > and >adjust > >accordingly. > > > >Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the >group > >requires prior permission from the author. > > > >Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > >necessary. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I couldn't agree more, Robert. Too many requests for information on treating illness with Chinese medicine are for protocols and prescriptions, when what is necessary is to learn the pathomechanisms that make people ill in the first place. Robert in his last post mentioned the work of Li Dong-yuan, master of the spleen/stomach school, who teaches that the inability of the spleen and stomach to separate the clear yang and turbid yin (qi transformation) leads to many illnesses, including obesity. And, yes, emotional and mental delusion can cause serious humoral imbalances (I am also a fan of Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine). We have to deal with these issues with so many of our patients, and I have to agree with Robert than point protocols and 'weight loss' formulas will often fall short if we do not deal with these essential factors. On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > Hi Attilio, > > As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the > Sp and St > and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works > wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of > disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger, > ignorance. these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which > have their > equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a > lot more > than sticking in needles at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2006 Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 Protocols are good for research, but real clinical situations require a much deeper understanding. Obesity and weight issues are both complex and really very simple at the same time. The simple part is to eat less (and better), and exercise more. Simple, and everyone knows it. Do those two things consistently for the rest of your life, and you won't be overweight. The complex part is the " why " people eat poorly and don't exercise. Ultimately I believe that comes from " delusions of the mind " as Robert stated. That is the root, and until that is adequately addressed no herbal regime or acupuncture protocol will make any permanent change to a person's weight or most other conditions for that matter. The disease in our culture is the " quick fix " disease and the " I'm not responsible for my life " disease. I've had dozens of patients come in for weight loss and I tell them straight up that acupuncture won't help until they are ready and willing to make changes to their lifestyle. I'm not saying CM can't be a part of that process, but without their willingness the treatment is doomed to fail. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Friday, January 06, 2006 4:14 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol I couldn't agree more, Robert. Too many requests for information on treating illness with Chinese medicine are for protocols and prescriptions, when what is necessary is to learn the pathomechanisms that make people ill in the first place. Robert in his last post mentioned the work of Li Dong-yuan, master of the spleen/stomach school, who teaches that the inability of the spleen and stomach to separate the clear yang and turbid yin (qi transformation) leads to many illnesses, including obesity. And, yes, emotional and mental delusion can cause serious humoral imbalances (I am also a fan of Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine). We have to deal with these issues with so many of our patients, and I have to agree with Robert than point protocols and 'weight loss' formulas will often fall short if we do not deal with these essential factors. On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > Hi Attilio, > > As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the > Sp and St > and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works > wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of > disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger, > ignorance. these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which > have their > equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a > lot more > than sticking in needles at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 I have been asked to help some patients with weight loss and was wondering if you could post those points again for reference. I promise to send my results if I get good ones. Thank you. --- <attiliodalberto wrote: > Hi all, > > Some members will remember around a year and a half > ago, I posted to > the group the 7 acupoint (10 needles) weight loss > protocol. A few > members used it and reported back with positive > results. > > I'm thinking of writing this weight loss protocol up > into an article > and would appreciate if any members could share > their case studies > with me that used this protocol. > > Please contact me off list at > attiliodalberto > > Kind regards > > Attilio > > > > > ________ DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 would be intererested to receive protocol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I just had an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in the last issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi unfortunately died last month. I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view against a ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both part and parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off the shelf treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we would all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it doesn't always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in Chinese medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches, represents the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace this than to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Editor in Chief Times 07786 198900 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg 06 January 2006 23:14 Chinese Medicine Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol I couldn't agree more, Robert. Too many requests for information on treating illness with Chinese medicine are for protocols and prescriptions, when what is necessary is to learn the pathomechanisms that make people ill in the first place. Robert in his last post mentioned the work of Li Dong-yuan, master of the spleen/stomach school, who teaches that the inability of the spleen and stomach to separate the clear yang and turbid yin (qi transformation) leads to many illnesses, including obesity. And, yes, emotional and mental delusion can cause serious humoral imbalances (I am also a fan of Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine). We have to deal with these issues with so many of our patients, and I have to agree with Robert than point protocols and 'weight loss' formulas will often fall short if we do not deal with these essential factors. On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > Hi Attilio, > > As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the > Sp and St > and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works > wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of > disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger, > ignorance. these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which > have their > equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a > lot more > than sticking in needles at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 I think we are all on the same page - we know we have to customize to fit our patients! The cookbook approach doesn't always work! Hoping everyone can have a clear and present mind! Often the movies played in our mind control us, but we are not the movie. We have to be here and now! Great discussion for 2006! Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, AHG, PhD chusauli<chusauli See my webpages at: http://www.chusaulei.com<http://www.chusaulei.com/> - Attilio D'Alberto<attiliodalberto To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> Saturday, January 07, 2006 2:10 AM RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I just had an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in the last issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi unfortunately died last month. I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view against a ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both part and parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off the shelf treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we would all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it doesn't always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in Chinese medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches, represents the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace this than to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Editor in Chief Times 07786 198900 enquiries<enquiries (AT) chinesemedicinetimes (DOT) \ com> <http://wwwchinesemedicinetimes.com/<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/>> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com<http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @com> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg 06 January 2006 23:14 To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ @> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol I couldn't agree more, Robert. Too many requests for information on treating illness with Chinese medicine are for protocols and prescriptions, when what is necessary is to learn the pathomechanisms that make people ill in the first place. Robert in his last post mentioned the work of Li Dong-yuan, master of the spleen/stomach school, who teaches that the inability of the spleen and stomach to separate the clear yang and turbid yin (qi transformation) leads to many illnesses, including obesity. And, yes, emotional and mental delusion can cause serious humoral imbalances (I am also a fan of Ayurvedic and Tibetan medicine). We have to deal with these issues with so many of our patients, and I have to agree with Robert than point protocols and 'weight loss' formulas will often fall short if we do not deal with these essential factors. On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:04 PM, Robert Chu wrote: > Hi Attilio, > > As I said in my other email, I believe one needs to to balance the > Sp and St > and do diet, nutrition and exercise. Sometime a pat on the back works > wonders as well. Ayurveda has an interesting view on the eitiology of > disease, saying it stems from delusions of the mind - greed, anger, > ignorance these create disorders of vata, pitta, kapha, which > have their > equivalent in wind, fire, phlegm. I believe we have to do a > lot more > than sticking in needles at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Attilio, I am, of course, aware of your article, as you shared it with me several months ago. But I think you miss my point. The issue for me is not acupuncture point protocols versus tailored raw prescriptions. Either one can be useful depending on the situation. The question is that the global diagnosis and determination of pathomechanisms and patterns is what is important. One cannot understand how to help a patient without understanding where their illnesses come from and how they developed in the first place. To use a point protocol or 'weight-loss' patent is, in my opinion, a mindless shortcut with limited success unless one understands the nature of the formula or point prescription itself and how it relates to the patient. I've seen enough years of clinical practice and had enough students and former students to know this to be true. On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I > just had > an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in > the last > issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi > unfortunately died > last month. > > I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view > against a > ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both > part and > parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off > the shelf > treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we > would > all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it > doesn't > always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in > Chinese > medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches, > represents > the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace > this than > to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Zev, I translated an article on Spleen and Stomach disorders which really gets into the varying pattern analysis of combined Zangfu disharmony quotes extracts from classical texts which provides an insight into their pathology. I haven't seen another translated article so in-depth discussing these disorders. I also provided the forum with a cookbook approach to treating weight loss using acupuncture, which by-and-large, works. Both these pieces of information and protocol where obtained in China. The in-depth Spleen and Stomach pattern analysis article was obtained from a leading expert in Beijing. The acupuncture weight loss protocol was observed in a top hospital in Beijing, not in the UK or the US. What I am trying to illustrate to people is the different faces of Chinese medicine. Both exist side by side in China and that's what your attacking, its not me, the person who simply observed them, it's the state of Chinese medicine in China itself. Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it holistic perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of Chinese medicine in China. This is a part of Chinese medicine from a specific point of time and choosing to focus just upon that is to look at Chinese medicine in a certain time span of development and love a romantic part of it whilst ignoring the rest. Why not love the shamanism aspects of TCM that pre dates the use of a pattern analysis or the later ideology that incorporates the combination of western medicine and Chinese medicine together? You can't say what Chinese medicine is as its constantly developing and always has been and you can't say which part people should pick and choose to use in their clinics. Having said all that I too am romantically in love with the use of pattern analysis. It seems like the best form of treatment that Chinese medicine has produced over the years, but who am I to say that? Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor in Chief Times 07786 198900 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg 08 January 2006 01:56 Chinese Medicine Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Attilio, I am, of course, aware of your article, as you shared it with me several months ago. But I think you miss my point. The issue for me is not acupuncture point protocols versus tailored raw prescriptions. Either one can be useful depending on the situation. The question is that the global diagnosis and determination of pathomechanisms and patterns is what is important. One cannot understand how to help a patient without understanding where their illnesses come from and how they developed in the first place. To use a point protocol or 'weight-loss' patent is, in my opinion, a mindless shortcut with limited success unless one understands the nature of the formula or point prescription itself and how it relates to the patient. I've seen enough years of clinical practice and had enough students and former students to know this to be true. On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I > just had > an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in > the last > issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi > unfortunately died > last month. > > I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view > against a > ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both > part and > parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off > the shelf > treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we > would > all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it > doesn't > always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in > Chinese > medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches, > represents > the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace > this than > to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 I think I agree with both Attilio and Zev here. Not only is it quite common to use AP cookbook formulae nowadays in China and the West, but also, if I remember correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong), herbal medicine in China has for thousands of years been dominated by Taoist village practitioners who often prescribed forumulae based on simple disease categories rather than CM patterns and CM pathomechanisms. That was surely a somewhat 'cookbook' approach. And if we look within the pattern differentiation camp, could it not be said that the modern 8-principle 'bian zheng lun zhi', being a simplification of the pattern differentiation done prior to the communist revolution, is in itself a semi-cookbook approach - a sort of half-way house? So it would appear that cookbook approaches have been part of chinese medicine for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. But, chinese medicine has always had many (thousands of) schools of thought, each one championed by passionate individuals so I feel it is somewhat 'artificial' and unreasonable to insist that practitioners today should follow the whole sprectrum of practice or to prevent practitioners from championing their own view. Having said all of that, I personally feel that CM patterns and pathomechanisms are at the heart of chinese medicine (ie closest to its philosophical centre) and should be our highest goal. I am trying to deepen my understanding of these things so I can use them more effectively with patients. But when I have to, I use cookbook. That's where I am. David Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Zev, > > I translated an article on Spleen and Stomach disorders which really gets snip Why not love the shamanism aspects of TCM that pre dates > the use of a pattern analysis or the later ideology that incorporates the > combination of western medicine and Chinese medicine together? You can't say > what Chinese medicine is as its constantly developing and always has been > and you can't say which part people should pick and choose to use in their > clinics. snip > Warm regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it holistic perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of Chinese medicine in China. >>>>>> And without any evidence of being more effective. Empirical formulas have been used forever and hopefully because they work. As far as weight loss the only thing that works is life style change. Oakland, CA 94609 - Attilio D'Alberto Chinese Medicine Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:53 AM RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Zev, I translated an article on Spleen and Stomach disorders which really gets into the varying pattern analysis of combined Zangfu disharmony quotes extracts from classical texts which provides an insight into their pathology. I haven't seen another translated article so in-depth discussing these disorders. I also provided the forum with a cookbook approach to treating weight loss using acupuncture, which by-and-large, works. Both these pieces of information and protocol where obtained in China. The in-depth Spleen and Stomach pattern analysis article was obtained from a leading expert in Beijing. The acupuncture weight loss protocol was observed in a top hospital in Beijing, not in the UK or the US. What I am trying to illustrate to people is the different faces of Chinese medicine. Both exist side by side in China and that's what your attacking, its not me, the person who simply observed them, it's the state of Chinese medicine in China itself. Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it holistic perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of Chinese medicine in China. This is a part of Chinese medicine from a specific point of time and choosing to focus just upon that is to look at Chinese medicine in a certain time span of development and love a romantic part of it whilst ignoring the rest. Why not love the shamanism aspects of TCM that pre dates the use of a pattern analysis or the later ideology that incorporates the combination of western medicine and Chinese medicine together? You can't say what Chinese medicine is as its constantly developing and always has been and you can't say which part people should pick and choose to use in their clinics. Having said all that I too am romantically in love with the use of pattern analysis. It seems like the best form of treatment that Chinese medicine has produced over the years, but who am I to say that? Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. Editor in Chief Times 07786 198900 enquiries <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg 08 January 2006 01:56 Chinese Medicine Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Attilio, I am, of course, aware of your article, as you shared it with me several months ago. But I think you miss my point. The issue for me is not acupuncture point protocols versus tailored raw prescriptions. Either one can be useful depending on the situation. The question is that the global diagnosis and determination of pathomechanisms and patterns is what is important. One cannot understand how to help a patient without understanding where their illnesses come from and how they developed in the first place. To use a point protocol or 'weight-loss' patent is, in my opinion, a mindless shortcut with limited success unless one understands the nature of the formula or point prescription itself and how it relates to the patient. I've seen enough years of clinical practice and had enough students and former students to know this to be true. On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I > just had > an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in > the last > issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi > unfortunately died > last month. > > I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view > against a > ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both > part and > parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off > the shelf > treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we > would > all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it > doesn't > always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in > Chinese > medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches, > represents > the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace > this than > to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Hello Dr. DAlberto, I hope this message finds you well. Do you know of a good TCM Doctor in Vienna, Austria who could handle a lumbar disk problem ? Cheers, Dr. G. <attiliodalberto a écrit : Hi all, Some members will remember around a year and a half ago, I posted to the group the 7 acupoint (10 needles) weight loss protocol. A few members used it and reported back with positive results. I'm thinking of writing this weight loss protocol up into an article and would appreciate if any members could share their case studies with me that used this protocol. Please contact me off list at attiliodalberto Kind regards Attilio Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 I think generalizing about anything to do with China is just that, generalization, and overlooks the complexities of actual practice. Just as the realities of what is actually 'evidence-based', or what 'evidence-based' is, or how authoritative it is, is actually quite complex as well. A discussion of this nature would require, in my opinion, a forum open to different points of view, historical perspectives, clinical data, and a review of trends in China, Asia and the West. On Jan 8, 2006, at 9:32 AM, wrote: > Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it holistic > perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of > Chinese > medicine in China. >>>>>>> > And without any evidence of being more effective. Empirical > formulas have been used forever and hopefully because they work. As > far as weight loss the only thing that works is life style change. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Attilio, You shouldn't feel that I am attacking you in any way. As you point out, you are just reporting a small piece of what is practiced in China. More of my concern is that too many practitioners are just looking for point prescriptions cookbook-style to use. When seeing such a prescription, it may be a better idea to critically examine it and then vary it according to individual patients, add distal points to improve qi flow, etc. We should always try to understand what the authors of the protocol were trying to accomplish, and why they chose this combination of points, otherwise, we don't really have a clue as to what we are doing. The same with herbal prescriptions. Every prescription is designed with a purpose, and if we understand the intention of the prescription, we can use it much more flexibly and tailor it for our needs. On Jan 8, 2006, at 1:53 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > Zev, > > I translated an article on Spleen and Stomach disorders which > really gets > into the varying pattern analysis of combined Zangfu disharmony quotes > extracts from classical texts which provides an insight into their > pathology. I haven't seen another translated article so in-depth > discussing > these disorders. I also provided the forum with a cookbook approach to > treating weight loss using acupuncture, which by-and-large, works. > Both > these pieces of information and protocol where obtained in China. The > in-depth Spleen and Stomach pattern analysis article was obtained > from a > leading expert in Beijing. The acupuncture weight loss protocol was > observed > in a top hospital in Beijing, not in the UK or the US. What I am > trying to > illustrate to people is the different faces of Chinese medicine. > Both exist > side by side in China and that's what your attacking, its not me, > the person > who simply observed them, it's the state of Chinese medicine in China > itself. Here in the West, many people have fallen in love with it > holistic > perspective using a pattern analysis, but this is not the state of > Chinese > medicine in China. This is a part of Chinese medicine from a > specific point > of time and choosing to focus just upon that is to look at Chinese > medicine > in a certain time span of development and love a romantic part of > it whilst > ignoring the rest. Why not love the shamanism aspects of TCM that > pre dates > the use of a pattern analysis or the later ideology that > incorporates the > combination of western medicine and Chinese medicine together? You > can't say > what Chinese medicine is as its constantly developing and always > has been > and you can't say which part people should pick and choose to use > in their > clinics. Having said all that I too am romantically in love with > the use of > pattern analysis. It seems like the best form of treatment that > Chinese > medicine has produced over the years, but who am I to say that? > > Warm regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M. M.A.T.C.M. > Editor in Chief > Times > 07786 198900 > enquiries > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Z'ev > Rosenberg > 08 January 2006 01:56 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > > Attilio, > I am, of course, aware of your article, as you shared it with me > several months ago. But I think you miss my point. The issue for me > is not acupuncture point protocols versus tailored raw > prescriptions. Either one can be useful depending on the situation. > The question is that the global diagnosis and determination of > pathomechanisms and patterns is what is important. One cannot > understand how to help a patient without understanding where their > illnesses come from and how they developed in the first place. To > use a point protocol or 'weight-loss' patent is, in my opinion, a > mindless shortcut with limited success unless one understands the > nature of the formula or point prescription itself and how it relates > to the patient. I've seen enough years of clinical practice and had > enough students and former students to know this to be true. > > > On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Attilio D'Alberto wrote: > >> Yes, I'm aware of Li Dong Yuan's views on the Spleen and Stomach. I >> just had >> an 8000 word article on Spleen and Stomach disorders published in >> the last >> issue of The Lantern. The author of that article Prof Shi >> unfortunately died >> last month. >> >> I don't fully support either a pattern analysis view-raw herb view >> against a >> ready made-cookbook patent-off the shelf treatment. They are both >> part and >> parcel of Chinese medicine and there's no getting around that. Off >> the shelf >> treatments are just as important as tailor made ones. Of course, we >> would >> all like to prescribe tailor made raw herbs to everyone, but it >> doesn't >> always happen or will happen. We have to accept that some things in >> Chinese >> medicine, such as off the shelf patents and cookbook approaches, >> represents >> the level and activity of our modern world. It's better to embrace >> this than >> to fight against it. If your in it, you can change it. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2006 Report Share Posted January 13, 2006 Hi group! I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an email about it. Anyway hope this gets posted. The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence different then the final sentence? If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is on the right track. According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you must tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With that you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the Nan Jing To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen what earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north). Acubeach Chinese Medicine , " Attilio D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > > Hi P.T. > > Sorry, just noticed this message. > > Here is the answer to your question: > > 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even > 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even > 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even > 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even > 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce > 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce > 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce > > Warm regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Editor in Chief > Times > 07786 198900 > enquiries@c... > <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of P.T. > Ferrance > 06 January 2006 00:51 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > > Hi Attilio, > Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are we > tonifying or draining? > P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. > - > Attilio D'Alberto > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM > RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > > Hi P.T. > > Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there are three > depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want to work on. > But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard. It's only > the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal acupuncture. No > moxa > is used, but TENS can be. > > Warm regards, > > Attilio D'Alberto > Doctor of (Beijing, China) > B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. > Company Director > The Earth Health Clinic > 0208 367 8378 > enquiries@t... > <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> www.theearthhealthclinic.com > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of P.T. > Ferrance > 05 January 2006 22:14 > Chinese Medicine > Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit perplexed at your analysis. 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach is prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is usually vacuous. 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its practitioners to technicians. 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda. No Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as a translation of xie4, in my opinion. On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > Hi group! > I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an email > about it. Anyway hope this gets posted. > > The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is > a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why > things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may > not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game > effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into > each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence > different then the final sentence? > > If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this > prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is on > the right track. > > According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you must > tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With that > you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the Nan > Jing > To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the > controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen what > earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north). > > > > Acubeach > > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: >> >> Hi P.T. >> >> Sorry, just noticed this message. >> >> Here is the answer to your question: >> >> 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even >> 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even >> 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even >> 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even >> 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce >> 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce >> 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce >> >> Warm regards, >> >> Attilio D'Alberto >> Editor in Chief >> Times >> 07786 198900 >> enquiries@c... >> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > P.T. >> Ferrance >> 06 January 2006 00:51 >> Chinese Medicine >> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol >> >> >> Hi Attilio, >> Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are > we >> tonifying or draining? >> P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. >> - >> Attilio D'Alberto >> Chinese Medicine >> Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM >> RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol >> >> >> Hi P.T. >> >> Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there > are three >> depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want > to work on. >> But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard. > It's only >> the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal > acupuncture. No >> moxa >> is used, but TENS can be. >> >> Warm regards, >> >> Attilio D'Alberto >> Doctor of (Beijing, China) >> B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. >> Company Director >> The Earth Health Clinic >> 0208 367 8378 >> enquiries@t... >> <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> > www.theearthhealthclinic.com >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> Chinese Medicine On Behalf > Of P.T. >> Ferrance >> 05 January 2006 22:14 >> Chinese Medicine >> Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 Thanks for the kind welcome, Z'ev. Yes, it can be perplexing. 1) Earth is the area from the upper border of pubic bone to lower border of the ribs and between the lines that devide the sides. In obese people these are replete, excess, round, acumulated, etc. There is no differentiation needed in this at least none noted in Chapeter 75. Bringing the organs into it is a different ball game. But sp qi xu leeds to dampness (an excess)and abdominal distention (again excess). Just an aside, you know that weight loss is a sign of sp qi xu? 2)That's jumping to conclusions. Never said that this was the only way to go. I'm just trying to show you how this protocol may have developed. That being said, maybe in China it is the more relevant way to treat the overweight. In the US I mostly see obesity due to damp heat. 3) Now your just picking nits to try and look cool. J/K, Z'ev. Thanks for your reply Acubeach Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit > perplexed at your analysis. > > 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially > without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach is > prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is > usually vacuous. > > 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many > strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is > insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single > point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that > enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the > elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its > practitioners to technicians. > > 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of > xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda. No > Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as > wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by > sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as a > translation of xie4, in my opinion. > > > On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > Hi group! > > I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an email > > about it. Anyway hope this gets posted. > > > > The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is > > a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why > > things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may > > not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game > > effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into > > each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence > > different then the final sentence? > > > > If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this > > prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is on > > the right track. > > > > According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you must > > tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With that > > you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the Nan > > Jing > > To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the > > controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen what > > earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north). > > > > > > > > Acubeach > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > > D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > >> > >> Hi P.T. > >> > >> Sorry, just noticed this message. > >> > >> Here is the answer to your question: > >> > >> 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even > >> 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even > >> 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even > >> 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even > >> 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce > >> 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce > >> 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce > >> > >> Warm regards, > >> > >> Attilio D'Alberto > >> Editor in Chief > >> Times > >> 07786 198900 > >> enquiries@c... > >> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> > > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > >> > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > > P.T. > >> Ferrance > >> 06 January 2006 00:51 > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > >> > >> > >> Hi Attilio, > >> Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are > > we > >> tonifying or draining? > >> P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. > >> - > >> Attilio D'Alberto > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM > >> RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > >> > >> > >> Hi P.T. > >> > >> Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there > > are three > >> depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want > > to work on. > >> But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard. > > It's only > >> the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal > > acupuncture. No > >> moxa > >> is used, but TENS can be. > >> > >> Warm regards, > >> > >> Attilio D'Alberto > >> Doctor of (Beijing, China) > >> B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. > >> Company Director > >> The Earth Health Clinic > >> 0208 367 8378 > >> enquiries@t... > >> <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> > > www.theearthhealthclinic.com > >> > >> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Chinese Medicine On Behalf > > Of P.T. > >> Ferrance > >> 05 January 2006 22:14 > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2006 Report Share Posted January 14, 2006 There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its practitioners to technicians. >>>> Can you say that acupuncture treats obesity successfully? Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, January 13, 2006 4:13 PM Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit perplexed at your analysis. 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach is prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is usually vacuous. 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its practitioners to technicians. 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda. No Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as a translation of xie4, in my opinion. On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > Hi group! > I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an email > about it. Anyway hope this gets posted. > > The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is > a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why > things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may > not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game > effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into > each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence > different then the final sentence? > > If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this > prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is on > the right track. > > According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you must > tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With that > you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the Nan > Jing > To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the > controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen what > earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north). > > > > Acubeach > > Chinese Medicine , " Attilio > D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: >> >> Hi P.T. >> >> Sorry, just noticed this message. >> >> Here is the answer to your question: >> >> 1. Zhongwan - Ren12 - even >> 2. Xiawan - Ren 10 - even >> 3. Qihai - Ren 6 - even >> 4. Guanyuan - Ren 4 - even >> 5. Daheng - SP15 - reinforce >> 6. Huaroumen - ST24 - reduce >> 7. Wailing - ST26 - reduce >> >> Warm regards, >> >> Attilio D'Alberto >> Editor in Chief >> Times >> 07786 198900 >> enquiries@c... >> <http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/> > www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > P.T. >> Ferrance >> 06 January 2006 00:51 >> Chinese Medicine >> Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol >> >> >> Hi Attilio, >> Thank you for the clarification. Is all the needling even or are > we >> tonifying or draining? >> P.T. Ferrance, L.Ac. >> - >> Attilio D'Alberto >> Chinese Medicine >> Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:07 PM >> RE: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol >> >> >> Hi P.T. >> >> Yes, abdominal acupuncture uses shallow needling, actually there > are three >> depths in abdominal acupuncture depending which level you want > to work on. >> But in this weight loss protocol, the needle depth is standard. > It's only >> the points which have a strong similarity to abdominal > acupuncture. No >> moxa >> is used, but TENS can be. >> >> Warm regards, >> >> Attilio D'Alberto >> Doctor of (Beijing, China) >> B.Sc. (Hons) T.C.M., M.A.T.C.M. >> Company Director >> The Earth Health Clinic >> 0208 367 8378 >> enquiries@t... >> <http://www.theearthhealthclinic.com/> > www.theearthhealthclinic.com >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> Chinese Medicine On Behalf > Of P.T. >> Ferrance >> 05 January 2006 22:14 >> Chinese Medicine >> Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Hi to all Just some thoughts about the gain weight discussion: - The Spleen Yang comes from the Kidney Yang: so how is it posible to be in excess? None of the Old Chinese Literature talk about this, at least that I know. - The excess of weight means excess of damp...it can affect the stomach or not, but surelly affect the spleen because it deals with the damp; - The empty fire can lead to a anxiety with increase ingestion of junk food, which creats damp; since fire is the mother of earth, the element stomach and spleen will be affected and not replenish; Some thoughts about the weight loss: - it can be Spleen Yang Xu and Stomach Yin Xu- most comomm I beliave... - it can be Stomach fire - in the begging but after a time it becomes to harm spleen and damp gets acumulated transforming the pattern into weight gain.... All the best! Jean Joaquim, DVM, MS, Acupuncture and Homeopathic Veterinary Service University of State of Sao Paulo - Brazil www.fmvz.unesp.br - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Friday, January 13, 2006 11:03 PM Re: Weight Loss Acupuncture Protocol Thanks for the kind welcome, Z'ev. Yes, it can be perplexing. 1) Earth is the area from the upper border of pubic bone to lower border of the ribs and between the lines that devide the sides. In obese people these are replete, excess, round, acumulated, etc. There is no differentiation needed in this at least none noted in Chapeter 75. Bringing the organs into it is a different ball game. But sp qi xu leeds to dampness (an excess)and abdominal distention (again excess). Just an aside, you know that weight loss is a sign of sp qi xu? 2)That's jumping to conclusions. Never said that this was the only way to go. I'm just trying to show you how this protocol may have developed. That being said, maybe in China it is the more relevant way to treat the overweight. In the US I mostly see obesity due to damp heat. 3) Now your just picking nits to try and look cool. J/K, Z'ev. Thanks for your reply Acubeach Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit > perplexed at your analysis. > > 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially > without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach is > prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is > usually vacuous. > > 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many > strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is > insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single > point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that > enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the > elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its > practitioners to technicians. > > 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of > xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda. No > Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as > wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by > sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as a > translation of xie4, in my opinion. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Only when part of a comprehensive strategy include diet, herbs, exercise, perhaps behavioral therapy. On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:25 PM, wrote: > There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many > strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is > insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single > point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that > enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the > elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its > practitioners to technicians. >>>>> > Can you say that acupuncture treats obesity successfully? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:03 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > Thanks for the kind welcome, Z'ev. > > Yes, it can be perplexing. > > 1) Earth is the area from the upper border of pubic bone > to lower border of the ribs and between the lines that devide the > sides. In obese people these are replete, excess, round, > acumulated, etc. > There is no differentiation needed in this at least none noted in > Chapeter 75. > Bringing the organs into it is a different ball game. But sp qi xu > leeds to dampness (an excess)and abdominal distention (again excess). > Just an aside, you know that weight loss is a sign of sp qi xu? Thank you for your clarification. It is hard to tell what people are talking about when they don't explain it further. Earth repletion can be interpreted in different ways, from a zang fu, five phase, or channel perspective. As far as weight goes, either weight gain or loss can be the result of spleen qi vacuity. This will depend on what other factors are at play; constitution, pathomechanisms, diet, emotions,lifestyle, etc. > > 2)That's jumping to conclusions. Never said that this was the only > way to go. I'm just trying to show you how this protocol may have > developed. That being said, maybe in China it is the more relevant > way to treat the overweight. In the US I mostly see obesity due to > damp heat. I never said that you were implying it was the only way to go. I was simply saying what I said, that 'one size fits all' approaches short change what Chinese medicine can accomplish. > > 3) Now your just picking nits to try and look cool. J/K, Z'ev. If experience is a teacher, pressing the issue of accurate translation and terminology is not only uncool on lists like this (having been personally attacked several times over this issue), but it is hardly nit-picking. The accurate transmission and interpretation of Chinese medicine is a critical issue for our profession. Sorry you took it so personally. > > Thanks for your reply > > Acubeach > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: >> >> While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit >> perplexed at your analysis. >> >> 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially >> without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach > is >> prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is >> usually vacuous. >> >> 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, > many >> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it > is >> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a > single >> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that >> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces > the >> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its >> practitioners to technicians. >> >> 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of >> xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda. > No >> Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as >> wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by >> sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as > a >> translation of xie4, in my opinion. >> >> >> On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: >> >>> Hi group! >>> I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an > email >>> about it. Anyway hope this gets posted. >>> >>> The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is >>> a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why >>> things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may >>> not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game >>> effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into >>> each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence >>> different then the final sentence? >>> >>> If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this >>> prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is > on >>> the right track. >>> >>> According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you > must >>> tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With > that >>> you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the > Nan >>> Jing >>> To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the >>> controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen > what >>> earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north). >>> >>> >>> >>> Acubeach >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 Since diet, exercise, herbs and behavioral therapy on there own can each result in weight loss, what weight do you put on acupuncture if you say it can't stand on its own? Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > Only when part of a comprehensive strategy include diet, herbs, > exercise, perhaps behavioral therapy. > > > On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:25 PM, wrote: > > > There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many > > strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it is > > insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a single > > point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that > > enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces the > > elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its > > practitioners to technicians. > >>>>> > > Can you say that acupuncture treats obesity successfully? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 No prob Z'ev What was your take on Nan Jing ch75 then and can you see how the protocol Attilio D'Albertois posted, can be explained with it? Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > > On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:03 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > > > Thanks for the kind welcome, Z'ev. > > > > Yes, it can be perplexing. > > > > 1) Earth is the area from the upper border of pubic bone > > to lower border of the ribs and between the lines that devide the > > sides. In obese people these are replete, excess, round, > > acumulated, etc. > > There is no differentiation needed in this at least none noted in > > Chapeter 75. > > Bringing the organs into it is a different ball game. But sp qi xu > > leeds to dampness (an excess)and abdominal distention (again excess). > > Just an aside, you know that weight loss is a sign of sp qi xu? > > Thank you for your clarification. It is hard to tell what people are > talking about when they don't explain it further. Earth repletion > can be interpreted in different ways, from a zang fu, five phase, or > channel perspective. As far as weight goes, either weight gain or > loss can be the result of spleen qi vacuity. This will depend on > what other factors are at play; constitution, pathomechanisms, diet, > emotions,lifestyle, etc. > > > > 2)That's jumping to conclusions. Never said that this was the only > > way to go. I'm just trying to show you how this protocol may have > > developed. That being said, maybe in China it is the more relevant > > way to treat the overweight. In the US I mostly see obesity due to > > damp heat. > > I never said that you were implying it was the only way to go. I was > simply saying what I said, that 'one size fits all' approaches short > change what Chinese medicine can accomplish. > > > > 3) Now your just picking nits to try and look cool. J/K, Z'ev. > > If experience is a teacher, pressing the issue of accurate > translation and terminology is not only uncool on lists like this > (having been personally attacked several times over this issue), but > it is hardly nit-picking. The accurate transmission and > interpretation of Chinese medicine is a critical issue for our > profession. Sorry you took it so personally. > > > > > > Thanks for your reply > > > > Acubeach > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > >> > >> While I assiduously study Nan Jing on a regular basis, I am a bit > >> perplexed at your analysis. > >> > >> 1) How do you see earth as being replete with obesity, especially > >> without differentiating between spleen and stomach? The stomach > > is > >> prone to repletion, but the spleen in most obesity patients is > >> usually vacuous. > >> > >> 2) There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, > > many > >> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, it > > is > >> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a > > single > >> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that > >> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces > > the > >> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its > >> practitioners to technicians. > >> > >> 3) Finally, the term 'sedation' is not an accurate translation of > >> xie4, drain is better or shunting as recommended by Sensei Ikeda. > > No > >> Chinese dictionary lists sedate as a translation of xie4, but as > >> wen3. While some practitioners will 'know what is meant' by > >> sedation, too many get the wrong idea to continue to use this as > > a > >> translation of xie4, in my opinion. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 13, 2006, at 3:04 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > >> > >>> Hi group! > >>> I posted an intro but somehow it never got here, yet I got an > > email > >>> about it. Anyway hope this gets posted. > >>> > >>> The real problems with acupuncture protocols is not because it is > >>> a " cookie cutter approach " but if you don't know the reason why > >>> things are then you will just follow what you see. That also may > >>> not be a problem unless you take into account the " Telephone game > >>> effect. " Ever play that game when you were a kid whispering into > >>> each others ears a sentence and having the original sentence > >>> different then the final sentence? > >>> > >>> If you consider being over weight as excess earth then this > >>> prescription that Attilio D'Albertois presents for weightloss is > > on > >>> the right track. > >>> > >>> According to the Nan Jing ch75, with excess earth (center) you > > must > >>> tonify it's mother (south), and sedate it's son (West). With > > that > >>> you would tonify ren15 sedate sp15(L). This would satisfy the > > Nan > >>> Jing > >>> To add the Nie Jing to this formula you would also tonify the > >>> controller of earth (east) tonify at sp15(R-east) and strenthen > > what > >>> earth controls by tonifying ren2 (north). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Acubeach > >>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2006 Report Share Posted January 15, 2006 In some individuals, acupuncture alone can result in weight loss. I just feel that a personalized combination of techniques works best. On Jan 14, 2006, at 10:45 PM, acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > Since diet, exercise, herbs and behavioral therapy on there own can > each result in weight loss, what weight do you put on acupuncture if > you say it can't stand on its own? > > Kelvin > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: >> >> Only when part of a comprehensive strategy include diet, herbs, >> exercise, perhaps behavioral therapy. >> >> >> On Jan 13, 2006, at 5:25 PM, wrote: >> >>> There are, again, many patterns that contribute to obesity, many >>> strategies of treatment that can be considered. In my opinion, > it is >>> insufficient and misleading to suggest that one could use a > single >>> point protocol on each and every patient that is overweight that >>> enters our clinics, or even more so, one diagnosis. It reduces > the >>> elegance of Chinese/Asian medicine to a technique, and its >>> practitioners to technicians. >>>>>>> >>> Can you say that acupuncture treats obesity successfully? >>> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.