Essential Oils

[Guest guest]

Hi Anya,

 

Thank you for the lovely post. I appreciate that you acknowledge we all have

different experiences and different levels and should respect each other as

such. I've studied and lived natural medicine all my life and I've been

fortunate to have my mother and, until recently my grandparents to teach me,

along with traditional education and experiences. I know there are people out

there who have more knowledge, more money to spend on ads, promotion and such,

and some (thankfully not you) who have truly over-blown egos and think they know

it ALL. None of us do, wished we could all just share our thoughts and

experiences without being offensive or hurting someone or their ability to have

a livelihood. I don't make perfume and wouldn't presume to try, but I would

respect someone like you who does.

 

I understand about the " red flags " , I know the person in question and many of

the problems that people have had with him/them. I don't blame you for being

cautious when anyone appears to be associated with them. I just want to be

clear that I am NOT. I do not buy anything from them, I don't use their

products, I don't promote their wares. I've been asking my web NON master to

remove their logo for 8 months and have finally contracted a new web designer

and am paying to do just that. I have no affiliation with them and none of my

oils or products come from them. What's sad is that those people have pretended

to invent and own the phrases ACAM and CAM and that's just bunk, they didn't and

don't. If you run search engines in JAMA, Harvard Health and other well known

medical journals, both ACAM and CAM come up at studies in Complimentary

Alternative Medicine and those people have nothing to do with it.

 

So, again, thank you, Anya, for your post. Have a good weekend.

 

Katherine

 

-

rastapoodle<mccoy

< >

Friday, September 30, 2005 10:15 PM

Re: Essential Oils

 

 

< >,

" Mother Earth's Apothecary "

<motherearthsapothecary@m<motherearthsapothecary@m>...> wrote:

> Sorry to rock your boat. I'm just truly shocked by some of the

> statements and want to figure out what's going on, not for me, I'm

> secure in my EO experience and usage and sources, but for the others

> reading this.

 

Hi katherine:

 

I know your heart and soul are in the right place -- that is evident

by your dedication to your education and helping others. It's just, as

I said, some assertions set off some red flags with me. Your

experience is different, and if you're happy with what you're doing,

that's great, and I hope many people benefit from your knowledge.

 

Discussion is good, and I wasn't attacking you, just what I perceived

to be some A-CAM stuff, and I've had to field complaints from folks

that have had horrible experiences with him for 10 years now. I'm not

going to fight anybody's battles, and I believe in the long story,

everything will work out. That's the nature of the aromatherapy story

in the USA.

 

Anya

http://naturalperfumery.com<http://naturalperfumery.com/><http://naturalperfumer\

y.com/<http://naturalperfumery.com/>

The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume

" The Age of the Foodie is passé. It is now the Age of the Scentie. "

<http://health.groups.yaho\

o.comNaturalPerfumery/>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jeffrey Yuen's center in New York City sells a spiral-bound manual

for its students. Maybe you can purchase one by contacting them; I

don't know for sure.

 

the website is: www.cwcherbs.com

 

 

 

On Sep 4, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus wrote:

 

> Does anyone know of any good reference on TCM properties of various

> essential oils? Thanks.

>

>

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

> Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

> medicine and acupuncture, click, http://

> www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

> http://

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside

> the group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

> absolutely necessary.

[Guest guest]

Peter Homes might have info on that.

Cara O. Frank, R. OM

Six Fishes

China Herb Company Chinese Herb Department

Tai Sophia Institute

www.carafrank.com

215-772-0770

 

On Sep 4, 2009, at 8:07 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus wrote:

 

> Does anyone know of any good reference on TCM properties of various

> essential oils? Thanks.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Either Peter Holmes or Jeffrey Yuen. Both have written books or articles

relating TCM to essential oils.

 

Frances Gander

[Guest guest]

True, but is the material peer-reviewed and/or time-tested? The value and

utility of so much of standard CM is its time-tested nature. Anyone can have an

opinion. It's a different issue of whether a significant group of others agree

with that opinion and clinical practice has confirmed it to be correct. While

it's important for some members of the profession to continue pushing the

boundaries, it is medically unethical to use an experimental procedure unless

the patient has signed an informed consent form aknowledgeing that they

understand the procedure is non-standard and experimental. I know we've been

over this issue before, but I believe it is an important one for our profession

in particular and an issue that is not well understood and considered by many of

us.

 

, " Frances L. Gander "

<threetreasures wrote:

>

> Either Peter Holmes or Jeffrey Yuen. Both have written books or articles

> relating TCM to essential oils.

>

> Frances Gander

>

[Guest guest]

I bought a set of Jeffrey Yuen tapes (remember tape cassettes?) a few years ago.

Four of the tapes discuss the application of essential oils to acupoints. They

might still be available.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

 

 

, " Mercurius Trismegistus "

<magisterium_magnum wrote:

>

> Does anyone know of any good reference on TCM properties of various

> essential oils? Thanks.

>

[Guest guest]

I've noticed in this discussion that nobody is copping to having used essential

oils clinically while several people have mentioned sources of information.

While I haven't explored the use of these myself, I know quite a few

practitioners who do. I would like to invite people to share their experience w/

essential oils, perhaps describe methods and delivery systems. Perhaps others

could agree to not pounce all over them?

Ben

 

 

 

 

 

 

I bought a set of Jeffrey Yuen tapes (remember tape cassettes?) a few years ago.

Four of the tapes discuss the application of essential oils to acupoints. They

might still be available.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

, " Mercurius Trismegistus "

<magisterium_magnum wrote:

>

> Does anyone know of any good reference on TCM properties of various

> essential oils? Thanks.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.

http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB & publ=WLHMTAG & crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSch\

ool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1

 

 

[Guest guest]

I found some articles and info about essential oils and TCM by Holmes on his

website sometime last year.  There are also some articles archived on

Acupuncture Today, available on their website - I think these contain info

written by a woman who has attended classes with Yuen, if I remember correctly.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Sun, 9/6/09, bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 wrote:

 

bill_schoenbart <plantmed2

Re: Essential Oils

 

Sunday, September 6, 2009, 8:30 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I bought a set of Jeffrey Yuen tapes (remember tape

cassettes?) a few years ago. Four of the tapes discuss the application of

essential oils to acupoints. They might still be available.

 

 

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

 

 

, " Mercurius Trismegistus "

<magisterium_ magnum@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> Does anyone know of any good reference on TCM properties of various

 

> essential oils? Thanks.

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ben,

 

I have just been asked to join the staff of a world-famous destination spa in

Sedona, AZ, and one of the services I offered to their managers as part of my

interview, was treatments that included essential oils.  This is something I

have been experimenting with since December, so I have little to report by way

of results, but I can tell you I firmly that believe the quality of the oils

used, is of utmost importance.

 

I had been wanting to work with essential oils for years, but all the " pure,

high-grade " oils I found, while bright and head-clearing, seemed to raise qi up

and out (very upbearing), and even scatter it.  I did eventually find a source I

like very much - these oils, in comparison, feel nourishing, grounding, and

(without proof), I would say I think they are a form of jing/essence.   I find

it interesting, that I would not automatically call all " essential " oils,

" essence " .

 

I used these oils during these spa interview treatments, and in one woman, the

effect was remarkable.  I used the oils in combination with needling, applying

oils to the skin with a q-tip after needles were inserted, alongside them.  I

used different oils which matched my intention for some of the points I

selected: black pepper on Ki-3, Ki-1, UB-23, UB-52 and DU-4 for warming the

kidneys , amber on UB-14 for soothing the heart/shen, ravinsara on UB-13 for

strengthening the lungs/wei qi (in this case for her extreme sense of

vulnerability).  This woman came in completely depleted, exhausted, frazzled,

grieving, premenstrual, and with a serious case of chronic viral (herpes)

meningitis starting to flare up.  20 minutes later, she was grounded, calm,

clear, and all her symptoms were gone (blurry vision, headache, severe pain in

the cervical spine).  In my experience, acupuncture alone would not have done

this much for her in such a short time. 

Because she was so deficient, and these oils are so nourishing, I believe they

made a strong contribution to the results we saw.

 

Some will ask, so I will tell you the name of the oils I use is Uttati.  They

have been made for generations by a family in Egypt, and I have found two

sources for them: one is a Wicca shop in Las Vegas called Bell, Book and Candle,

and the other is a woman in Sedona named Gabrielle Young.  Although I live near

Sedona, I buy the oils in Las Vegas because when I attempted to purchase herbs

from Gabrielle, she insisted that I pay her to do " psychic readings " with the

oils before she would sell them to me.  Apparently, this is some condoned aspect

of Uttati oils by the manufacturing family, but the Las Vegas folks do not

insist on it.

 

The owner of the shop in Las Vegas told me that there are trainings for nurses

and other health practitioners in using these oils, but I have not explored

this.  Most of these oils are thick, almost syrupy, and are quite potent, so I

dilute them for use.  The are also incredibly expensive, so I have purchased

only a few of them so far.  I have not come in contact with the oils sold on

Holmes' website, so I cannot say anything about their quality or purity.  He

offers a very wide variety of oils, with detailed descriptions on the

applications of each on his website, and I am eager to explore them at some

point.

 

If anyone does contact Bell, Book & Candle to purchase these oils, they may

offer you a discount if you tell them what you do and purchase a certain

quantity of oils.  They did this for me, but I had to ask for it.  You may order

the oils online or on the phone.

 

Some links -

 

About Uttati - http://www.uttati.com/difference.html

Bell, Book  Candle - http://lasvegasbbc.com/productCat19535.ctlg

 

I am also interested in hearing the experiences of other folks who incorporate

essential oils into their treatments.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Sun, 9/6/09, ben zappin <btz23 wrote:

 

ben zappin <btz23

RE: Re: Essential Oils

" chineseherb academy "

Sunday, September 6, 2009, 8:57 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've noticed in this discussion that nobody is copping to having used essential

oils clinically while several people have mentioned sources of information.

While I haven't explored the use of these myself, I know quite a few

practitioners who do. I would like to invite people to share their experience w/

essential oils, perhaps describe methods and delivery systems. Perhaps others

could agree to not pounce all over them?

 

Ben

 

 

 

I bought a set of Jeffrey Yuen tapes (remember tape cassettes?) a few years ago.

Four of the tapes discuss the application of essential oils to acupoints. They

might still be available.

 

 

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

 

 

, " Mercurius Trismegistus "

<magisterium_ magnum@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> Does anyone know of any good reference on TCM properties of various

 

> essential oils? Thanks.

 

>

 

 

 

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

 

Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.

 

http://www.bing. com/cashback? form=MSHYCB & publ=WLHMTAG & crea=TEXT_

MSHYCB_BackToSch ool_Cashback_ BTSCashback_ 1x1

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jeffrey Yuen has several CDs available on essential oils usage

at www.conferencerecording.com look up Jeffrey Yuen

 

Also, David Crow, the author of " In Search of the Medicine Buddha "

has a top-quality essential oil and attar company named Floracopeia

http://www.floracopeia.com/

 

There are great Free articles about essential oils on this site.

 

K

[Guest guest]

On Sep 6, 2009, at 10:23 AM, wrote:

 

>

> I had been wanting to work with essential oils for years, but all

> the " pure, high-grade " oils I found, while bright and head-clearing,

> seemed to raise qi up and out (very upbearing), and even scatter

> it. I did eventually find a source I like very much - these oils,

> in comparison, feel nourishing, grounding, and (without proof), I

> would say I think they are a form of jing/essence. I find it

> interesting, that I would not automatically call all " essential "

> oils, " essence " .

 

Regarding essential oils and 'essence':

 

Jeffrey Yuen speaks of oils carrying to the essence, the jing level.

 

However, in the Western alchemical tradition, all plant matter can be

broken down into body, spirit, and soul- represented by salt, mercury,

and sulphur. These in plants are the physical ash, alcohol, and

essential oil. It is this sulphur quality- the essential oils- that

make the real individuality of the plant.

 

So then, in my limited understanding, the oil of the plant would seem

to correspond more to the qi aspect, salt to jing, and mercury to

shen. Can anyone clarify this?

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Gabriel Mojay is an acupuncturist, herbalist, and aromatherapist in UK. His book

" Aromatherapy for healing the Spirit " was one of my steppingstones towards

studying Oriental medicine. The oils have been described in terms of 5E ,

temperature, safety concerns.

It's well worth to spend $20 on it.

ISBN 0-89281-887-5

 

Thank you the group for staying on the track, but being open to explore:)

E

[Guest guest]

what's an attar?

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Sun, 9/6/09, <johnkokko wrote:

 

<johnkokko

Re: Re: Essential Oils

 

Sunday, September 6, 2009, 10:30 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jeffrey Yuen has several CDs available on essential oils usage

 

at www.conferencerecor ding.com look up Jeffrey Yuen

 

 

 

Also, David Crow, the author of " In Search of the Medicine Buddha "

 

has a top-quality essential oil and attar company named Floracopeia

 

http://www.floracop eia.com/

 

 

 

There are great Free articles about essential oils on this site.

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bob and all,

 

Although I am not familiar with the material written about essential oils used

in CM I must take issue with your rather strong statements below.

 

While I agree that anyone can have an opinion, like you, I have my own and that

doesn't make either of us right, or wrong for that matter.

 

For millennia " doctors " of CM have added new herbs, therapies, and theories.

Some were right and some were less than right, while a few were down-right

wrong. Through much of that time I would agree that it was experimental, however

the addition of an essential oil or a medicinal from outside the Bensky et al

materia medica can hardly be viewed as experimental. We are not talking about

medicinal substances for which there is no data. In fact, for most of them there

is abundant data. Furthermore, if we can read Chinese we can see that there are

many plants that are used in China that are the same or related to plants used

in the West (The Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian 2006 lists 6008 substances). Now we can

argue about why the " standard " medicinals are " standard " all day long, but that

will get us nowhere. The fact is that within China there are over 6000

medicinals used and tens of thousands of formulas, all of which have been

documented and used, and mostly if not entirely sactioned by the government. So

what is standard?

 

To suggest that people who use plants or substances that are not in the Chinese

materia medica, to your knowledge, are doing so unethically is, IMHO, an

opinion, one that I don't agree with. If, for instance, I picked up a plant for

which I had no prior knowledge, nor teaching, nor literature and started giving

it to patients without telling them so, well then dear sir you would have a

great argument. However, this is not the case with the work I do, and I would

venture to guess the same is true for the work that Jeffery Yuan does.

 

All that said, for those who might be concerned about legal issues via scope of

practice, my understanding is that it is a little fuzzy. I haven't read it in a

while but most states say something like " standard Chinese herbs " but without

defining such a term. Who is to decide what is standard? Furthermore, it is my

experience that when one cultivates the patient/practitioner relationship that I

strive to grow, the chance of problems are greatly reduced. That is not to say

impossible, but I sit here unmoved by such distance possibilities....much better

chance of getting killed in a car accident or perhaps struck by lightning, but

I'm neither going to stop driving (actually I haven't owned a car in 5 years)

nor will I run underground during a lightning storm.

 

It's up to you!

 

Respectfully,

 

Beijing, China

 

P.S. What would it take to " peer-review " such material?

P.P.S. Anyone who would like to do so for the material I have written, and the

forecoming book is more than welcome to do so. Please!

P.P.P.S Anyone interested in contributing any experience with any " western " herb

to the body of knowledge already existent please contact me privately and

perhaps there is a place for it in the second volume of my book.

 

, " pemachophel2001 " <bob wrote:

>

> True, but is the material peer-reviewed and/or time-tested? The value and

utility of so much of standard CM is its time-tested nature. Anyone can have an

opinion. It's a different issue of whether a significant group of others agree

with that opinion and clinical practice has confirmed it to be correct. While

it's important for some members of the profession to continue pushing the

boundaries, it is medically unethical to use an experimental procedure unless

the patient has signed an informed consent form aknowledgeing that they

understand the procedure is non-standard and experimental. I know we've been

over this issue before, but I believe it is an important one for our profession

in particular and an issue that is not well understood and considered by many of

us.

>

> , " Frances L. Gander "

<threetreasures@> wrote:

> >

> > Either Peter Holmes or Jeffrey Yuen. Both have written books or articles

> > relating TCM to essential oils.

> >

> > Frances Gander

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Andrea,

http://www.floracopeia.com/zen-cart/attars-c-1?zenid=4e431845d25e58c4c2e9d5cac3e\

de952

 

K

[Guest guest]

Eric,

a little bit of difficulty in translating western alchemical terms with

Chinese medical ones...

but I like the idea.

 

I'm wondering if this is really up to interpretation and poetic license...

ie. for essential oils: Jing = oil Qi = vapor Shen = fragrance

 

As a candle burns from an oil base letting off both vapor and fragrance...

Jing transforms to Qi which transforms to Shen,

Shen is the refinement of Qi which is the refinement of Jing.

 

In Chinese alchemy, there are these base metals:

" The three yellows are sulfur and sulfur compounds; the four spirits are

cinnabar, quicksilver (mercury),

lead and saltpeter "

.... Liu I Ming's commentary verse 8 of 16 Verses from Understanding Reality

trans. by Thomas Cleary

 

The gold elixir is the combination of yin and yang, the refinement of

mercury and lead...

" The gold elixir is made by the true lead of real knowledge of the mind of

Tao plus the

true mercury of the conscious knowledge of the human mind " verse 6 of

Sixty-Four Verses ibid

 

So, the gold elixir (Shen) can be seen as the refinement of Jing

(yin-potential) and Qi (yang-action)

or the alchemy of the true mercury (wood - dragon) and the true lead (metal

- tiger).

 

8 ounces of the upper-pole (metal-lead) and 8 ounces of the lower-pole

(wood-mercury) form the spiritual embryo.

As metal represents Lung Qi in the upper jiao (metal-tiger) and

wood represents LV Blood in the lower jiao (wood-dragon),

here is a bridge between alchemical and medical symbology.

 

We also say that metal-tiger resides in the west (right) and wood-dragon in

the east (left).

This gives us a two-fold axis to work with.

The center (earth) is the crucible which forges the base metals into Gold.

 

As Blood (xue) and Jing have the same source, we can say that this is

represented by wood-dragon-mercury.

Qi is represented by metal-tiger-lead.

The refinement of these two (Blood/Jing and Qi) is Shen, represented by the

Gold Elixir.

The crouching tiger and hidden dragon come out from their caves.

 

The oil is the Jing, the vapor is the Qi and the fragrance (Ambrosia- nectar

of immortality) is the Shen.

In other words, Realize your destiny and become enlightened.

 

K

[Guest guest]

Cool!  Thanks, John!

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Sun, 9/6/09, <johnkokko wrote:

 

<johnkokko

Re: Re: Essential Oils

 

Sunday, September 6, 2009, 10:43 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Andrea,

 

http://www.floracop eia.com/zen- cart/attars- c-1?zenid= 4e431845d25e58c4

c2e9d5cac3ede952

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

John,

 

This makes sense to me - thanks!:

 

" The oil is the Jing, the vapor is the Qi and the fragrance (Ambrosia- nectar

 

of immortality) is the Shen.

 

In other words, Realize your destiny and become enlightened. "

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

I would urge you, possibly with the assistance of some members of this group,

to track down the peer review groups who have been responsible for the more

recent inclusions and/or interpretations of Western herbs into standard materia

medica in China. Who got to say what the flavor and nature of Echinacea,

Hypericum, Valeriana, and Gingko leaf are and who evaluated it? I realize some

of these previously existed but have been modified based on modern

research-correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

tag.plantgeek

Mon, 7 Sep 2009 03:29:10 +0000

Re:Essential Oils

 

 

 

 

 

Bob and all,

 

Although I am not familiar with the material written about essential oils used

in CM I must take issue with your rather strong statements below.

 

While I agree that anyone can have an opinion, like you, I have my own and that

doesn't make either of us right, or wrong for that matter.

 

For millennia " doctors " of CM have added new herbs, therapies, and theories.

Some were right and some were less than right, while a few were down-right

wrong. Through much of that time I would agree that it was experimental, however

the addition of an essential oil or a medicinal from outside the Bensky et al

materia medica can hardly be viewed as experimental. We are not talking about

medicinal substances for which there is no data. In fact, for most of them there

is abundant data. Furthermore, if we can read Chinese we can see that there are

many plants that are used in China that are the same or related to plants used

in the West (The Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian 2006 lists 6008 substances). Now we can

argue about why the " standard " medicinals are " standard " all day long, but that

will get us nowhere. The fact is that within China there are over 6000

medicinals used and tens of thousands of formulas, all of which have been

documented and used, and mostly if not entirely sactioned by the government. So

what is standard?

 

To suggest that people who use plants or substances that are not in the Chinese

materia medica, to your knowledge, are doing so unethically is, IMHO, an

opinion, one that I don't agree with. If, for instance, I picked up a plant for

which I had no prior knowledge, nor teaching, nor literature and started giving

it to patients without telling them so, well then dear sir you would have a

great argument. However, this is not the case with the work I do, and I would

venture to guess the same is true for the work that Jeffery Yuan does.

 

All that said, for those who might be concerned about legal issues via scope of

practice, my understanding is that it is a little fuzzy. I haven't read it in a

while but most states say something like " standard Chinese herbs " but without

defining such a term. Who is to decide what is standard? Furthermore, it is my

experience that when one cultivates the patient/practitioner relationship that I

strive to grow, the chance of problems are greatly reduced. That is not to say

impossible, but I sit here unmoved by such distance possibilities....much better

chance of getting killed in a car accident or perhaps struck by lightning, but

I'm neither going to stop driving (actually I haven't owned a car in 5 years)

nor will I run underground during a lightning storm.

 

It's up to you!

 

Respectfully,

 

Beijing, China

 

P.S. What would it take to " peer-review " such material?

P.P.S. Anyone who would like to do so for the material I have written, and the

forecoming book is more than welcome to do so. Please!

P.P.P.S Anyone interested in contributing any experience with any " western " herb

to the body of knowledge already existent please contact me privately and

perhaps there is a place for it in the second volume of my book.

 

, " pemachophel2001 " <bob wrote:

>

> True, but is the material peer-reviewed and/or time-tested? The value and

utility of so much of standard CM is its time-tested nature. Anyone can have an

opinion. It's a different issue of whether a significant group of others agree

with that opinion and clinical practice has confirmed it to be correct. While

it's important for some members of the profession to continue pushing the

boundaries, it is medically unethical to use an experimental procedure unless

the patient has signed an informed consent form aknowledgeing that they

understand the procedure is non-standard and experimental. I know we've been

over this issue before, but I believe it is an important one for our profession

in particular and an issue that is not well understood and considered by many of

us.

>

> , " Frances L. Gander "

<threetreasures@> wrote:

> >

> > Either Peter Holmes or Jeffrey Yuen. Both have written books or articles

> > relating TCM to essential oils.

> >

> > Frances Gander

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.

http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB & publ=WLHMTAG & crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSch\

ool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

I share your interest in developing and expanding Chinese materia

medica to include 'western herbs' and the use of aromatherapy, but

also feel that this work will take generations to bring to fruition.

What I find most interesting about Jeffrey Yuen's use of aromatherapy

oils is his idea that essential oils are the jing/essence of plants,

and using them in that fashion on acupuncture points to enter specific

channels to produce specific effects. Chinese medicine of course has

historically used moxa and other medicinal substances ('herbal moxa')

in a similar fashion applied to the exterior of the body. I myself

have been experimenting on using cinnamon oil on myself, treating

heart 7/shen men, xin shu/Bl 15 and shen shu/Bl 23 to strengthen my

heart and kidneys.

 

However, I agree with Bob that I would not be comfortable in

mainstreaming use of aromatherapy oils into my clinical practice, as

it is an experimental procedure at this point. While interesting and

exciting, Jeffrey Yuen has not been able to demonstrate any sources or

background for his aromatherapy ideas (he has developed an entire

treatment system using mostly western/european essential oils on

specific points and channels). In fact, he rarely sites his sources

in his work, so I constantly wonder where his ideas come from. I

might try some of these ideas on myself, but I am more comfortable

both clinically and ethically with prescriptions and modalities that

are clearly grounded in the Chinese medical literature both modern and

classic.

 

 

On Sep 6, 2009, at 8:29 PM, wrote:

 

> Bob and all,

>

> Although I am not familiar with the material written about essential

> oils used in CM I must take issue with your rather strong statements

> below.

>

> While I agree that anyone can have an opinion, like you, I have my

> own and that doesn't make either of us right, or wrong for that

> matter.

>

> For millennia " doctors " of CM have added new herbs, therapies, and

> theories. Some were right and some were less than right, while a few

> were down-right wrong. Through much of that time I would agree that

> it was experimental, however the addition of an essential oil or a

> medicinal from outside the Bensky et al materia medica can hardly be

> viewed as experimental. We are not talking about medicinal

> substances for which there is no data. In fact, for most of them

> there is abundant data. Furthermore, if we can read Chinese we can

> see that there are many plants that are used in China that are the

> same or related to plants used in the West (The Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian

> 2006 lists 6008 substances). Now we can argue about why the

> " standard " medicinals are " standard " all day long, but that will get

> us nowhere. The fact is that within China there are over 6000

> medicinals used and tens of thousands of formulas, all of which have

> been documented and used, and mostly if not entirely sactioned by

> the government. So what is standard?

>

> To suggest that people who use plants or substances that are not in

> the Chinese materia medica, to your knowledge, are doing so

> unethically is, IMHO, an opinion, one that I don't agree with. If,

> for instance, I picked up a plant for which I had no prior

> knowledge, nor teaching, nor literature and started giving it to

> patients without telling them so, well then dear sir you would have

> a great argument. However, this is not the case with the work I do,

> and I would venture to guess the same is true for the work that

> Jeffery Yuan does.

>

> All that said, for those who might be concerned about legal issues

> via scope of practice, my understanding is that it is a little

> fuzzy. I haven't read it in a while but most states say something

> like " standard Chinese herbs " but without defining such a term. Who

> is to decide what is standard? Furthermore, it is my experience that

> when one cultivates the patient/practitioner relationship that I

> strive to grow, the chance of problems are greatly reduced. That is

> not to say impossible, but I sit here unmoved by such distance

> possibilities....much better chance of getting killed in a car

> accident or perhaps struck by lightning, but I'm neither going to

> stop driving (actually I haven't owned a car in 5 years) nor will I

> run underground during a lightning storm.

>

> It's up to you!

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Beijing, China

>

> P.S. What would it take to " peer-review " such material?

> P.P.S. Anyone who would like to do so for the material I have

> written, and the forecoming book is more than welcome to do so.

> Please!

> P.P.P.S Anyone interested in contributing any experience with any

> " western " herb to the body of knowledge already existent please

> contact me privately and perhaps there is a place for it in the

> second volume of my book.

>

> , " pemachophel2001 "

> <bob wrote:

> >

> > True, but is the material peer-reviewed and/or time-tested? The

> value and utility of so much of standard CM is its time-tested

> nature. Anyone can have an opinion. It's a different issue of

> whether a significant group of others agree with that opinion and

> clinical practice has confirmed it to be correct. While it's

> important for some members of the profession to continue pushing the

> boundaries, it is medically unethical to use an experimental

> procedure unless the patient has signed an informed consent form

> aknowledgeing that they understand the procedure is non-standard and

> experimental. I know we've been over this issue before, but I

> believe it is an important one for our profession in particular and

> an issue that is not well understood and considered by many of us.

> >

> > , " Frances L. Gander "

> <threetreasures@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Either Peter Holmes or Jeffrey Yuen. Both have written books or

> articles

> > > relating TCM to essential oils.

> > >

> > > Frances Gander

> > >

> >

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Recently I translated a Chinese journal article on the use of essential oils in

the treatment of some condition, I think maybe insomnia. I'm pretty sure it was

some kind of psychiatric as opposed to an organic disorder. In any case, that

article either already has been or will be uploaded soon to the Free Article Db

at www.bluepoppy.com. So I'm not against aromatherapy as a part of Chinese

medicine per se. All I'm suggesting is that we have some sort of evidence before

using such treatments on our patients. As stated in other posts on this forum,

there is a well established hierarchy of type of evidence in the EBM literature.

I translated and published the article mentioned above for two reasons: 1) to

evidence that aromatherapy is a part of CM, and 2) to begin building a Db of

studies on aromatherapy and CM.

 

Either we're a group of free-wheeling, do-whatever-you-want, unprofessional,

fringe practitioners or we're working to become a mature, professional medicine.

Part of the definition of being a profession is A) having standards and B)

members of that profession abiding by those standards for the good of 1) the

public they serve and 2) the profession as a whole. That's what, in fact, we are

" professing " to the public and our peers.

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 " <bob wrote:

>

> Recently I translated a Chinese journal article on the use of essential oils

in the treatment of some condition, I think maybe insomnia. I'm pretty sure it

was some kind of psychiatric as opposed to an organic disorder.

 

Some of the main essential oil applications that I have seen in the Chinese

literature relate to the topical use of Xi Xin oil. I recall reading about

application of Xi Xin essential oil in the context of treating endometriosis (I

believe in combination with She Xiang).

 

I've also heard reports that reference the quantity of essential oil of Dang Gui

in granule products, apparently the essential oil of Dang Gui has a marked

ability to promote uterine contraction. We can see differences in its

traditional use because some formulas used prolonged cooking that would minimize

the volatile oils in some applications, and shorter decoction methods for other

applications.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

This is the reason why ethanolic extracts can have a different effect than

aqueous extracts. A tincture can extract certain fat-soluble essential oils more

efficiently while leaving behind much of the water-soluble compounds.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

 

 

> I've also heard reports that reference the quantity of essential oil of Dang

Gui in granule products, apparently the essential oil of Dang Gui has a marked

ability to promote uterine contraction. We can see differences in its

traditional use because some formulas used prolonged cooking that would minimize

the volatile oils in some applications, and shorter decoction methods for other

applications.

>

> Eric Brand

>

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

>

> To suggest that people who use plants or substances that are not in the

Chinese materia medica, to your knowledge, are doing so unethically is, IMHO, an

opinion, one that I don't agree with. If,

 

 

Bob did not suggest that the " using of " was unethical. He said that not telling

your patients ahead of time that what you were doing was experimental was

unethical. And yes, that is pretty much a standard in all types of medicine.

 

When people come to a practitioner of Chinese medicine, they can do so with

confidence because they will be getting a treatment (or one very close to) that

has been done by many thousands of practitioners over hundreds of years on

millions of people with similar situations. That is what they want and expect.

They trust that what we do falls into that broad category.

 

For instance, in the rare case that I use e-stim on a patient, I explain what it

is, why I think it may help, and explain that its use in is

relatively modern.

 

Before I prescribe a concentrated granule formula, I explain what it is, how it

is made, and how it differs from traditional decoctions, powders, and pills for

which the herbal tradition gains its strong foundation.

 

I bought a laser out of curiosity, and have used it on myself. But, I dare not

use it in my practice because I am not satisfied with its history of use. If,

however, a patient asked specifically for it, I might consider it, but

otherwise, I see no reason to even try.

 

My patients get well using the methods that I already use. I see no need to use

experimental methods at this point in time. I have always been a free thinker

and like the idea of experimentation, and I do experiment at times, but not in

my formal practice unless the patient is fully informed.

 

Brian C. Allen, MSTOM

[Guest guest]

Bob -

 

Where is the line drawn on prescription modification if we are strictly

following EBM guidelines? I took a group of herb students to Taiwan in 1996. The

Taiwanese version of the FDA was reviewing a modification of chai hu long mu li

tang using kava kava. They spent a good deal of governmental resources

developing a body of evidence for approving the chai hu long mu li tang

modification using kava kava.

 

I think that there are serious problems with the current EBM knowledge pyramid.

There is currently a rather large uprising in the social sciences and among the

qualitative and mixed methods research communities. There are whole conferences

and journals now that deal with this issue of the " politics of evidence, " that

is, who determines what quality evidence is? How is it used to control community

resources and develop policies? This becomes relevant, because I am not

convinced that the social science movement has research methods that can serve

our community well.

 

One of the problems for our community is that we have almost wholesale bought

the current EBM pyramid as quality knowledge and the path for us to establish

our value within this culture. I think it is a mistake. But we need a wider

dialog on this matter of a politics of evidence.

 

I think that where you are going with time tested and case based presentations

is closer to the historically based body of Chinese medical knowledge. I believe

that we need to find a way to invert this knowledge pyramid in policy making

rooms: but, in a way that is serious and measured. Statistical power could be

gained across a case series for instance.

 

Warmly,

 

Will

 

, " pemachophel2001 " <bob wrote:

>

> Recently I translated a Chinese journal article on the use of essential oils

in the treatment of some condition, I think maybe insomnia. I'm pretty sure it

was some kind of psychiatric as opposed to an organic disorder. In any case,

that article either already has been or will be uploaded soon to the Free

Article Db at www.bluepoppy.com. So I'm not against aromatherapy as a part of

Chinese medicine per se. All I'm suggesting is that we have some sort of

evidence before using such treatments on our patients. As stated in other posts

on this forum, there is a well established hierarchy of type of evidence in the

EBM literature. I translated and published the article mentioned above for two

reasons: 1) to evidence that aromatherapy is a part of CM, and 2) to begin

building a Db of studies on aromatherapy and CM.

>

> Either we're a group of free-wheeling, do-whatever-you-want, unprofessional,

fringe practitioners or we're working to become a mature, professional medicine.

Part of the definition of being a profession is A) having standards and B)

members of that profession abiding by those standards for the good of 1) the

public they serve and 2) the profession as a whole. That's what, in fact, we are

" professing " to the public and our peers.

>