Sleep Apnea

[Guest guest]

This issueof the Blue Poppy Online Journal has a research report on sleep

apnea. Just go to the Blue Poppy website and sign up; it's free.

 

Kristin

 

-

<diane

 

Thursday, August 23, 2001 12:46 AM

Sleep Apnea

 

 

> Hi All,

>

> Has anyone had any experience in treating sleep apnea? Any pattern

> differentiation info? Any written material? A client made an

> appointment, so I thought I would ask general info from everyone.

> Perhaps I could give particular information when I see him.

>

> Thanks for any advice you can send me.

>

> Diane

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello group,

 

I am wondering if anyone has any resources or experience re: the treatment

of sleep apnea.

 

Thanks, Sharon

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

 

Blue Poppy Institute will be publishing a sleep apnea Distance

Learning program in another few weeks. I believe Blue Poppy Press

already has a sleep apnea Research Report available.

 

Bob

 

, Sharon Weizenbaum

<sweiz@r...> wrote:

> Hello group,

>

> I am wondering if anyone has any resources or experience re: the

treatment

> of sleep apnea.

>

> Thanks, Sharon

[Guest guest]

Does anyone have any experience treating Sleep Apnea. How about the

TCM differentiations?

 

I have a new patient, age 42 male. NOT OVERWEIGHT. He also has

depression, fatigue, acognitive dysfunction and mild OCD. His pulses

are tense and wiry and his tongue is slightly long with a red tip and

red slightly swollen sides. Clearly I see evidence of Liver and Heart

Fire, but are these cayuses for Sleep Apnea? Any ideas are appreciated.

 

David Karchmer, L.Ac.

[Guest guest]

apnea carries classic and predictable signs and is the more easily

diagnosed maladies

 

could you please find inform on:

tongue fissures

ear lobe markings

discolorations in cavum conchae of ears esp L

tenderness at SI 11

tenderness at LV 14 L

if the uppermost angle of hara is caved in

 

and:

if lowest energy point is either midday - midnight or 5 to 7 PM and AM

 

insomnia is a major presentation

insomnia in which 2 hour time slots?

 

face color:

critical - is there a hue on extra yin tang?

on LI 20?

 

critical -

is there a malar flush?

let me amend, there is one

 

is it shallow, deep, dead center, eccentric, linear?

is there a purple hue? very red? dull red? with brown splotches?

 

very critical sign:

is there hypothermia?

 

5 E designs are fun when you are accurate and a nightmare when you are not

 

holmes

www.acu-free.com

 

 

David Karchmer wrote:

 

> Does anyone have any experience treating Sleep Apnea. How about the

> TCM differentiations?

>

> I have a new patient, age 42 male. NOT OVERWEIGHT. He also has

> depression, fatigue, acognitive dysfunction and mild OCD. His pulses

> are tense and wiry and his tongue is slightly long with a red tip and

> red slightly swollen sides. Clearly I see evidence of Liver and Heart

> Fire, but are these cayuses for Sleep Apnea? Any ideas are appreciated.

>

> David Karchmer, L.Ac.

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi, David

I would think in the line of

 

Weak Sp leads to Dampness and Qi Def

Stress (Qi Stag) leads to Heat

Heat thickens Dampness to Phlegm

Phlegm + Qi Def leads to Sleep Apnea

 

If other signs and symptom correspond to above I would

try some combination of

 

Shu Gan Tang + Er Chen Tang (or Ban Xia Hou Po Tang) +

Bu Zhong Yi Chi Tang

 

Acu:

4 Gates,

St40 St36 Sp9

R9 R12 R17 R23 Gb20

 

Good Luck

 

Peter Pavolotsky

 

 

 

 

 

--- David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

 

 

 

Does anyone have any experience treating Sleep Apnea.

How about the

TCM differentiations?

 

I have a new patient, age 42 male. NOT OVERWEIGHT. He

also has

depression, fatigue, acognitive dysfunction and mild

OCD. His pulses

are tense and wiry and his tongue is slightly long

with a red tip and

red slightly swollen sides. Clearly I see evidence of

Liver and Heart

Fire, but are these cayuses for Sleep Apnea? Any ideas

are appreciated.

 

David Karchmer, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

To translate this message, copy and paste it into this

web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

 

and adjust accordingly.

 

Messages are the property of the author. Any

duplication outside the group requires prior

permission from the author.

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with

other academics,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Matsumoto gives a treatment for the alignment of the sphenoid and pelvis,

where her list of symptoms includes sleep - insomnia, sleep apnea, TMJ, jaw

pain and ear problems, temporal headache, inguinal ligament pain, sensitive

skin, rash and eczema.

 

Are any of the rest of these also present David?

Best wishes,

 

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.4 - Release 6/06/2005

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Just a bit more info on this sphenoid and pelvis misalignment. Check for

pressure pain on CV 5 and CV 6 area, Pressure pain on inguinal ligament

coming form above and pressure pain on TW 17 and TMJ.

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Sharon

Tuesday, 7 June 2005 10:19 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: SLEEP APNEA

 

 

Hi all,

Matsumoto gives a treatment for the alignment of the sphenoid and pelvis,

where her list of symptoms includes sleep - insomnia, sleep apnea, TMJ,

jaw

pain and ear problems, temporal headache, inguinal ligament pain,

sensitive

skin, rash and eczema.

 

Are any of the rest of these also present David?

Best wishes,

 

 

 

 

--

Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.4 - Release 6/06/2005

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all of your insights. I have seen this patient a few more

times now, and I have concluded that his diagnosis is Liver Yin and

Blood Xu, co-arising with Liver Fire, which in turn has given rise to

Heart Fire.

 

I don't know if that data will shed any new thoughts on the subject. I

believe taht the Liver Fire is Counterflowing to Insult the Lungs, and

that this is a potential source of the Sleep disturbance in the

respiratory system.

 

Anyone care to corroborate?

 

- David

[Guest guest]

Look at the pathology build up. An essential link is missing, and

if you treat without that less will come from more.

 

Step wise in an incremental progressive fashion:

 

Stage 1 - LV yin & Blood xu

Stage 2 - LV Fire

Stage 3 - HT Fire

Stage 4 - LV Counters to LU

 

You are missing a Stage here.

 

Can you tell where?

 

Dr. Holmes

www.acu-free.com

 

 

 

David Karchmer wrote:

 

> Thanks for all of your insights. I have seen this patient a few more

> times now, and I have concluded that his diagnosis is Liver Yin and

> Blood Xu, co-arising with Liver Fire, which in turn has given rise to

> Heart Fire.

>

> I don't know if that data will shed any new thoughts on the subject. I

> believe taht the Liver Fire is Counterflowing to Insult the Lungs, and

> that this is a potential source of the Sleep disturbance in the

> respiratory system.

>

> Anyone care to corroborate?

>

> - David

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi David

 

FYI, Blue Poppy has a series of great and inexpensive classes on CD

taught by Bob Flaws and Sleep Apnea is among them. Might give you some

ideas now and for future patients. Liver Fire is mentioned as one Root

cause with possible branches being Phlegm, Dampness and Turbidity;

Blood Stasis; and recurrent Wind Cold. He mentions the importance of

many treatments close together which makes sense since it recurrs on a

24 hour cycle. Specifically, Flaws recommends 5 treatments per week

for one month. There are also formulas discussed--I'd get the CD.

Good Luck.

 

Regards, Shanna

Chinese Medicine , " David Karchmer "

<acuprof@h...> wrote:

> Thanks for all of your insights. I have seen this patient a few more

> times now, and I have concluded that his diagnosis is Liver Yin and

> Blood Xu, co-arising with Liver Fire, which in turn has given rise

to

> Heart Fire.

>

> I don't know if that data will shed any new thoughts on the subject.

I

> believe taht the Liver Fire is Counterflowing to Insult the Lungs,

and

> that this is a potential source of the Sleep disturbance in the

> respiratory system.

>

> Anyone care to corroborate?

>

> - David

[Guest guest]

, " snickers2261 "

<long.robin wrote:

>

> Any suggestions to help with sleep apnea? snoring?

>

> ~Robin

>

Yes...get your thyroid levels checked. It's a common problem when

you're hypothyroid.

 

Andrea

[Guest guest]

yea, I did have that checked and they were good.

thank you!

~Robin

 

 

, " angesc2001 "

<AngInfoHound wrote:

>

> , " snickers2261 "

> <long.robin@> wrote:

> >

> > Any suggestions to help with sleep apnea? snoring?

> >

> > ~Robin

> >

> Yes...get your thyroid levels checked. It's a common problem when

> you're hypothyroid.

>

> Andrea

>

[Guest guest]

Have you done a sleep lab to confirm? Are you overweight? Being overweight is

not an absolute but most people with apnea are.

 

If you have sleep apnea and you are not doing anything about it you are putting

you life in danger. This affliction is extremely hard on the heart, lungs and

vascular system plus there the danger of having a stroke is increase

considerable compared to the norm.

 

I have sleep apnea and have been using a continuous pressure air pump (CPAP) for

13 years, it's like second nature to me, automatic.

 

Surgery is risky in my opinion and is not always successful. Have you joined a

sleep disorders discussion group? I don't currently belong to one but you can

probably get the latest information there.

 

Jack

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " angesc2001 "

<AngInfoHound wrote:

 

, " snickers2261 "

<long.robin@> wrote:

>

> Any suggestions to help with sleep apnea? snoring?

>

> ~Robin

>

 

My husband has sleep apnea (confirmed by a sleep clinic) and snores,

but only when he sleeps on his back. If he sleeps on his side, these

symptoms disappear, and he has much more energy during the day, much

more dreaming at night. Might be worth a try if you are a back sleeper.

 

-Deb

[Guest guest]

Losing weight will usually do the trick. Thougjh I'm suppose their are cases

unrelated to excess weight.

jp

-

snickers2261

Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:37 AM

Sleep Apnea

 

 

Any suggestions to help with sleep apnea? snoring?

Messages in this topic (1)

~Robin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.13/500 - Release 10/26/2006

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I actually was diagnosed 12 yrs ago right after havin my 3rd

daughter. So I was probably about 25lbs overweight....lost it all,

and now 132lbs. Yes, had the sleep study and all. Doctors always

thought it was weird that I did have it cuz I wasn't really

overweight. I do sleep with a CPAP...just wondering if there is a way

to cure this. Also, my husband snores terribly and it makes it real

hard for me to sleep, therefore, not getting enough good sleep

myself. Is there something to do about snoring itself? yes, he is

overweight...maybe simply losing weight will help his snoring?

 

~Robin

 

, " JACK MILLIORN "

<jack.mill wrote:

>

> Have you done a sleep lab to confirm? Are you overweight? Being

overweight is not an absolute but most people with apnea are.

>

> If you have sleep apnea and you are not doing anything about it you

are putting you life in danger. This affliction is extremely hard on

the heart, lungs and vascular system plus there the danger of having

a stroke is increase considerable compared to the norm.

>

> I have sleep apnea and have been using a continuous pressure air

pump (CPAP) for 13 years, it's like second nature to me, automatic.

>

> Surgery is risky in my opinion and is not always successful. Have

you joined a sleep disorders discussion group? I don't currently

belong to one but you can probably get the latest information there.

>

> Jack

>

>

[Guest guest]

Do your differential diagnosis. In my experience the folks with this

are overweight causing large amounts of edema in the pharanx, tongue,

and throat. Phlegm dampness is usually a big issue here and formulas

for regulating digestion,the diaphragm and the middle and resolving

phlegm are usually key. But always form your treatment method based on

your dd.

rc

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

And/or, does it follow the same patterns as snoring? Any differential

dx ideas for either problem? I was listening to one of the call-in

doc shows (I think it was Zorba for health) and he said that there was

a recent study that talked about using high doses of prilosec to Tx

apnea. He (Zorba) had some polyps in his throat (I think), and the

surgeon suggested he try the higher dose of prilosec (lower/normal

dose didn't work), no caffeine (soda, coffee, tea, etc), and I think

no sugar (or very limited)for a month before doing surgery. A month

or so later, the polyps were gone.

 

It makes me think of looking at the patterns for stomach disharmony /

fire / phlegm (and I remember a suggestion to use Yin Qiao for

snoring). I think the most common thing you hear is that people with

apnea need to loose weight. My wife did her dissertation on sleep

apnea and I helped input the data from the sleep studies. Not all the

patients in the sleep study were just overweight big people - so

differentiation is still important.

 

Geoff

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> I was wondering how successful (or unsuccessful) others have found

CM for

> sleep apnea?

[Guest guest]

Dear rc,

 

 

 

Thank you for your response. I do though want to be clear, my question is,

how successful is CM at treating sleep apnea. It is not, what are possible

patterns for treatment. Furthermore, I am not looking for a treatment

strategy nor instruction to, just do an obvious DDX.

 

 

 

Maybe though, I am misinterpreting your response, but from your answer it

sounds like that if one just does a DDX and treats accordingly that any

problem will go away. I hope that is not what you are saying. Or maybe you

feel that Sleep apnea is so easy that if you just do a DDX then it is a no

brainer. Maybe you could clarify things. If you have found that you have

cured a large percentage of your sleep apnea patients with CM, then please

let us know. Otherwise theory is just theory. So maybe I could have worded

my question better:

 

 

 

Has anyone (or know someone) that has good success (cured many cases, with a

good ratio of success to failure) treating sleep apnea (with CM).

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of rcooper1us

Monday, March 19, 2007 1:03 PM

 

Re: Sleep Apnea

 

 

 

Do your differential diagnosis. In my experience the folks with this

are overweight causing large amounts of edema in the pharanx, tongue,

and throat. Phlegm dampness is usually a big issue here and formulas

for regulating digestion,the diaphragm and the middle and resolving

phlegm are usually key. But always form your treatment method based on

your dd.

rc

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If you have found that you have

cured a large percentage of your sleep apnea patients with CM, then please

let us know. Otherwise theory is just theory. So maybe I could have worded

my question better:

>>>>>About time we start hearing this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Monday, March 19, 2007 6:27 PM

RE: Re: Sleep Apnea

 

 

Dear rc,

 

Thank you for your response. I do though want to be clear, my question is,

how successful is CM at treating sleep apnea. It is not, what are possible

patterns for treatment. Furthermore, I am not looking for a treatment

strategy nor instruction to, just do an obvious DDX.

 

Maybe though, I am misinterpreting your response, but from your answer it

sounds like that if one just does a DDX and treats accordingly that any

problem will go away. I hope that is not what you are saying. Or maybe you

feel that Sleep apnea is so easy that if you just do a DDX then it is a no

brainer. Maybe you could clarify things. If you have found that you have

cured a large percentage of your sleep apnea patients with CM, then please

let us know. Otherwise theory is just theory. So maybe I could have worded

my question better:

 

Has anyone (or know someone) that has good success (cured many cases, with a

good ratio of success to failure) treating sleep apnea (with CM).

 

-

 

_____

 

On Behalf Of rcooper1us

Monday, March 19, 2007 1:03 PM

Re: Sleep Apnea

 

Do your differential diagnosis. In my experience the folks with this

are overweight causing large amounts of edema in the pharanx, tongue,

and throat. Phlegm dampness is usually a big issue here and formulas

for regulating digestion,the diaphragm and the middle and resolving

phlegm are usually key. But always form your treatment method based on

your dd.

rc

 

[Guest guest]

I've had one or two partial successes but they were always after the patient

lost weight or

otherwise we worked alot on damp issues.

doug

 

 

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote:

>

> If you have found that you have

> cured a large percentage of your sleep apnea patients with CM, then please

> let us know. Otherwise theory is just theory. So maybe I could have worded

> my question better:

> >>>>>About time we start hearing this

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

> Monday, March 19, 2007 6:27 PM

> RE: Re: Sleep Apnea

>

>

> Dear rc,

>

> Thank you for your response. I do though want to be clear, my question is,

> how successful is CM at treating sleep apnea. It is not, what are possible

> patterns for treatment. Furthermore, I am not looking for a treatment

> strategy nor instruction to, just do an obvious DDX.

>

> Maybe though, I am misinterpreting your response, but from your answer it

> sounds like that if one just does a DDX and treats accordingly that any

> problem will go away. I hope that is not what you are saying. Or maybe you

> feel that Sleep apnea is so easy that if you just do a DDX then it is a no

> brainer. Maybe you could clarify things. If you have found that you have

> cured a large percentage of your sleep apnea patients with CM, then please

> let us know. Otherwise theory is just theory. So maybe I could have worded

> my question better:

>

> Has anyone (or know someone) that has good success (cured many cases, with a

> good ratio of success to failure) treating sleep apnea (with CM).

>

> -

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of rcooper1us

> Monday, March 19, 2007 1:03 PM

>

> Re: Sleep Apnea

>

> Do your differential diagnosis. In my experience the folks with this

> are overweight causing large amounts of edema in the pharanx, tongue,

> and throat. Phlegm dampness is usually a big issue here and formulas

> for regulating digestion,the diaphragm and the middle and resolving

> phlegm are usually key. But always form your treatment method based on

> your dd.

> rc

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > my question better:

> >

> > Has anyone (or know someone) that has good success (cured many

cases, with a

> > good ratio of success to failure) treating sleep apnea (with

CM).

> >

> > -

>

>Jason,

 

You are right, I didn't understand your question correctly. My ratios

would not be of much use as i have not treated this issue as the main

presenting problem per se. From my experience, the people I have

treated who have sleep apnea along with other complaints that we

were focusing on were usually around 40 to 50+ pounds overweight

and the weight issue was a hurdle that was never successfully

tackled. ( My advice re: exercise, diet, etc was not followed.)

I did give a friend with sleep apnea some chinese dietary guidelines

for boosting spleen and drying dampness.Over the course of several

months she lost over 35 lbs and her asthma and apnea disappeared. we

didn't use any herbal formulas.

 

It is now 3 years later and she has gained all and more of her weight

back and so is the apnea.

 

Perhaps there are some research reports out of China .

rc

[Guest guest]

I am presently treating a thin woman with sleep apnea, not the primary

reason she came for tx. No spleen damp, but ki & liver yin def. She

wakes up every morning with a headache. Age 50. Meditates and does

yoga every day. She will be doing the sleep study next week. I, too,

usually associate this symptom with overweight people.

 

Frances Gander

[Guest guest]

I usually associate this type of headache with teeth grinding or clenching in

the night. Which

makes me wonder if apnea is defined always as constriction of the airway or is

it any kind of

sleep interruption.

doug

 

 

, " Frances L. Gander "

<threetreasures

wrote:

>

> I am presently treating a thin woman with sleep apnea, not the primary

> reason she came for tx. No spleen damp, but ki & liver yin def. She

> wakes up every morning with a headache. Age 50. Meditates and does

> yoga every day. She will be doing the sleep study next week. I, too,

> usually associate this symptom with overweight people.

>

> Frances Gander

>