Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

[Guest guest]

Can you see the meridians or show to anyone .like in

anatomy dissection or otherwise?

So wake up.

Invisible to the naked eye, but visible to .......

You figure out.

Vanessa

>>

 

--- <>

wrote:

> An invisible world Vanessa, ....perhaps it is an

> illusion.

> Sharon

> -

> " " <vbirang

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:32 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be largely

> an ilusion

>

>

> >>

>

> Sharon wrote it:.

>

> When we understand where in time and in what

> historical context the

> different theories where written we start to

> recognise the systems of

> associations we are using. These for me are some of

> the connections to

> philosophical roots which were severed according to

> Unschuld as cited by

> Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that

> is was based on a

> 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that

> TCM was IT. Nothing else

> was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful

> discussions of qi and

> yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to

> learn a whole heap of zang

> fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to

> all that wonderful

> Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was

> rotate learning functions and

> indications of acupoints. There was no room for

> concepts such as too much

> water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or

> lack of fire to evaporate

> the water. It was this point does that approach.>.

>

> Yes I can relate to it.

>

> I had many teachers but one tibetan one played a

> strong role in my

> understanding.

>

> He was very good practitioner with herbs and

> acupuncture, I saw some

> incredible cases where he just had major results in

> minutes.

>

> Serious cases of pain and treatments was usually

> 100% successful.

> He use to tell me: " Not evertyhing question needs

> an answer "

>

>

>

> He said many of this knowledge was here even before

> the ones that wrote it

> down.

>

> This is a living knowledge and has it's own

> inteligence and control. You

> can't get there intelectually,is by revelation. I

> know is hard for many to

> understand this statements but like I said it is an

> invisible world ),

> whatelse can I say?

>

>

>

> >>With the maturity that there is much more to

> acupuncture than TCM school,

> came the ability to adapt the practice to what I

> find in clinic, rather than

> chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas.

> For instance finding

> bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to

> consider time based

> treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to

> the mornings? However,

> if there is an absence of regular bowel movements,

> then I may need to

> consider other theoretical constructs in which to

> make my associations in

> order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel

> movements as the

> symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or

> obstruction of qi.

>

> I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first

> encounters with Japanese

> acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating

> chronic fatigue.... he

> kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to

> if someone asked me

> this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to

> treat diseases... now I

> know I need to better understand how to assess and

> influence the person

> through their qi.>>

> I agree with you and I appreciate your honesty in

> this post.

>

>

> >>If I were to see a wind cold attack that started

> showing up patches of

> purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be

> thinking about Warm

> disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital,

> and not cold

> penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun.

> However, if I don't know

> this history then I might think that all wind cold

> should be treated with Lu

> 7 and Co 4. >.

>

> It is very hard to know all, so than we have others

> practicing where we

> reffer for consultation and hopefully a brake in the

> case.

>

>

>

> >>I may not realise that excess Lung conditions

> arise from the Liver and I

> may continue to try to tonify the already excess

> Lung and ignore the

> distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise

> from, knowing which

> style I am doing tells to those who understand

> history, which schools I

> follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately,

> for many TCM means what

> Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. >>

>

> The word monolithic singular truth gave a headache

> temporal related ) to

> high of a vocabulary for my needs )

>

>

> >>

> I have only a splattering of understanding

> acupuncture concepts within their

> own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit

> of knowledge has helped

> me to understand and organise where I am treating

> from. A frame of

> reference. And like others have said, the more I

> treat the less I am sure

> of, however, I know at least a little bit about

> where the ideas that

> consciously inform me come from.

> Sharon..

>

> I feel the saem the more I am revelad of this

> energetic world the more I can

> see of It's infinite source of truth,

> principles,theories and possibilities.

>

> Vanessa

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be

> largely an ilusion

>

>

> >>Sharon wrote :

> >

> > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of

> > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of

> > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The

> > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in

> the

> > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we

> find

> > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in

> another

> > to the element of Water. So which source do you

> > mean going back to? Where do you place your

> > authority?

>

> The authority goes to the essence " energetic

> system "

> In this energetic system there is a world within

> with

> many different principles, some use bleeding some

> don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5

> elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points

> only,

> some don't, etc... for the different reasons that

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You act like many in the western medical world, you

can't see must be an illusion, or woo doo and not

possible to be a science, can't touch or see it is

not real.

Vanessa

 

>>

 

--- <>

wrote:

> An invisible world Vanessa, ....perhaps it is an

> illusion.

> Sharon

> -

> " " <vbirang

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:32 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be largely

> an ilusion

>

>

> >>

>

> Sharon wrote it:.

>

> When we understand where in time and in what

> historical context the

> different theories where written we start to

> recognise the systems of

> associations we are using. These for me are some of

> the connections to

> philosophical roots which were severed according to

> Unschuld as cited by

> Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that

> is was based on a

> 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that

> TCM was IT. Nothing else

> was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful

> discussions of qi and

> yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to

> learn a whole heap of zang

> fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to

> all that wonderful

> Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was

> rotate learning functions and

> indications of acupoints. There was no room for

> concepts such as too much

> water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or

> lack of fire to evaporate

> the water. It was this point does that approach.>.

>

> Yes I can relate to it.

>

> I had many teachers but one tibetan one played a

> strong role in my

> understanding.

>

> He was very good practitioner with herbs and

> acupuncture, I saw some

> incredible cases where he just had major results in

> minutes.

>

> Serious cases of pain and treatments was usually

> 100% successful.

> He use to tell me: " Not evertyhing question needs

> an answer "

>

>

>

> He said many of this knowledge was here even before

> the ones that wrote it

> down.

>

> This is a living knowledge and has it's own

> inteligence and control. You

> can't get there intelectually,is by revelation. I

> know is hard for many to

> understand this statements but like I said it is an

> invisible world ),

> whatelse can I say?

>

>

>

> >>With the maturity that there is much more to

> acupuncture than TCM school,

> came the ability to adapt the practice to what I

> find in clinic, rather than

> chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas.

> For instance finding

> bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to

> consider time based

> treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to

> the mornings? However,

> if there is an absence of regular bowel movements,

> then I may need to

> consider other theoretical constructs in which to

> make my associations in

> order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel

> movements as the

> symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or

> obstruction of qi.

>

> I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first

> encounters with Japanese

> acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating

> chronic fatigue.... he

> kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to

> if someone asked me

> this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to

> treat diseases... now I

> know I need to better understand how to assess and

> influence the person

> through their qi.>>

> I agree with you and I appreciate your honesty in

> this post.

>

>

> >>If I were to see a wind cold attack that started

> showing up patches of

> purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be

> thinking about Warm

> disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital,

> and not cold

> penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun.

> However, if I don't know

> this history then I might think that all wind cold

> should be treated with Lu

> 7 and Co 4. >.

>

> It is very hard to know all, so than we have others

> practicing where we

> reffer for consultation and hopefully a brake in the

> case.

>

>

>

> >>I may not realise that excess Lung conditions

> arise from the Liver and I

> may continue to try to tonify the already excess

> Lung and ignore the

> distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise

> from, knowing which

> style I am doing tells to those who understand

> history, which schools I

> follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately,

> for many TCM means what

> Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. >>

>

> The word monolithic singular truth gave a headache

> temporal related ) to

> high of a vocabulary for my needs )

>

>

> >>

> I have only a splattering of understanding

> acupuncture concepts within their

> own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit

> of knowledge has helped

> me to understand and organise where I am treating

> from. A frame of

> reference. And like others have said, the more I

> treat the less I am sure

> of, however, I know at least a little bit about

> where the ideas that

> consciously inform me come from.

> Sharon..

>

> I feel the saem the more I am revelad of this

> energetic world the more I can

> see of It's infinite source of truth,

> principles,theories and possibilities.

>

> Vanessa

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be

> largely an ilusion

>

>

> >>Sharon wrote :

> >

> > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of

> > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of

> > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The

> > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in

> the

> > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we

> find

> > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in

> another

> > to the element of Water. So which source do you

> > mean going back to? Where do you place your

> > authority?

>

> The authority goes to the essence " energetic

> system "

> In this energetic system there is a world within

> with

> many different principles, some use bleeding some

> don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5

> elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points

> only,

> some don't, etc... for the different reasons that

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim,

Quite correct Jim it is possible to use both approaches of qi circulation and

organ qi quality in pulse interpretation; however, it is not a requirement.

Perhaps one day I will be able to do both. I never felt very effective with

zang fu pulse taking, yet I know others who can read them like a book.

 

At the moment I am developing my pulse interpretation within a context of the

keiraku chiryo (meridian) system, which is based on an interpretation of the Nan

Jing. But please explain how you intergrate both basic approaches to pulse

interpretation, that of the qi circulation and that of the organs, and how such

a dynamic influences your treatment plans.

 

So far I have found it is important to understand the information systems one is

tapping into. Analogously, I don't have to read every newspaper to get the

day's news. Yet it is good, I think, to know what systems one is listening in

on. Take Manaka's work on abdominal diagnosis.

 

I was fascinated by Manaka's very simple work on channels and abdominal

diagnosis, where he found treating the source pt of a channel with a magnet

changed the pressure pain palpable on a front mu point. Only thing was that he

found that the mu point that related to the channel yuan source varied in some

instances to those of the classics.

 

For instance Kidney 3 reduced pressure pain not on GB25 but on Kid 16. Another

he found was with pressure pain on St 25 better reflective of the triple burner,

but not the CV5. He concluded, for that point in time, that whilst his

differing mu points were reflective of the yuan source points of the channels,

they may not be reflective of the organs. So it might be useful to know that

Manaka was treating channels not organs in that aspect of his work. It might

explain why there are so many abdominal diagnosis systems, they may indeed be

looking at one aspect of person quite separately to another aspect of the

energetic system.

 

Thanks

Sharon

 

 

 

-

James Ramholz

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:30 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Sharon wrote:

> There are at least two ideas of taking pulses; of these one is

that it is the qi circulation in the meridians that is being

assessed. The other is that it is the qi in the organs that is being

assessed. When I look to the pulse I am looking at qi circulation in

the meridians, not the organs, how about you? >>>

 

 

 

Sharon:

 

These pulse perspectives should not be thought of as mutually

exclusive. You should always use them both---after all, patients use

both.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Vanessa,

Thankful is something I understand towards teachers. Yet having to have faith

in a teacher, sounds more and more like a religion.

 

Maybe I missed your meaning here?

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:35 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

 

 

>Sharon wrote it:

>

> Finally why do you need faith in the teacher? What

> happens when one doesn't have faith or loses one's

> faith?

> Sharon

 

 

hello Sharon I am eternally thankfull to my teachers

for the insight and the door openings that they taught

me. I am thanfull for them to have accepted me as

their student.

I am not saying this as a cheap poetic statement, it

is a reality experienced by many around the world.

Many of us are affraid to have a teacher where you

give your faith to it, Offcourse I am not talking of

any teacher.

If the teacher is real and he is within this

understanding he can pass it to you. He can make it

easier to enter the knowledge. There is an immense

amount of people that have a great memory bank and

they recite the TCM theories , old books statements,

but in the end is just as blind as it can be.

It is an invisible world( Energetic), so we need an

special way to enter and way to stay there.

I forgot to say that my tibetan teahcer was a master

on gigong and many things that I saw or experience in

that energetic system could not be appreciated by

many, because our logical so-called intellectual mind

is in the way and the experiences would only accepted

as part of believe.

But when you meet a good master in qigong you will

know that he can enter a special dimension which TCM

has many things in commom.

So respect to a good teacher is important.

It is amazing what a bonafide teacher can do for a

good sincere by heart student. I saw many times.

Vanessa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Vanessa,

I think you missed my pun!

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:19 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

 

 

 

 

You act like many in the western medical world, you

can't see must be an illusion, or woo doo and not

possible to be a science, can't touch or see it is

not real.

Vanessa

 

>>

 

--- <>

wrote:

> An invisible world Vanessa, ....perhaps it is an

> illusion.

> Sharon

> -

> " " <vbirang

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:32 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be largely

> an ilusion

>

>

> >>

>

> Sharon wrote it:.

>

> When we understand where in time and in what

> historical context the

> different theories where written we start to

> recognise the systems of

> associations we are using. These for me are some of

> the connections to

> philosophical roots which were severed according to

> Unschuld as cited by

> Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that

> is was based on a

> 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that

> TCM was IT. Nothing else

> was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful

> discussions of qi and

> yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to

> learn a whole heap of zang

> fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to

> all that wonderful

> Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was

> rotate learning functions and

> indications of acupoints. There was no room for

> concepts such as too much

> water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or

> lack of fire to evaporate

> the water. It was this point does that approach.>.

>

> Yes I can relate to it.

>

> I had many teachers but one tibetan one played a

> strong role in my

> understanding.

>

> He was very good practitioner with herbs and

> acupuncture, I saw some

> incredible cases where he just had major results in

> minutes.

>

> Serious cases of pain and treatments was usually

> 100% successful.

> He use to tell me: " Not evertyhing question needs

> an answer "

>

>

>

> He said many of this knowledge was here even before

> the ones that wrote it

> down.

>

> This is a living knowledge and has it's own

> inteligence and control. You

> can't get there intelectually,is by revelation. I

> know is hard for many to

> understand this statements but like I said it is an

> invisible world ),

> whatelse can I say?

>

>

>

> >>With the maturity that there is much more to

> acupuncture than TCM school,

> came the ability to adapt the practice to what I

> find in clinic, rather than

> chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas.

> For instance finding

> bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to

> consider time based

> treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to

> the mornings? However,

> if there is an absence of regular bowel movements,

> then I may need to

> consider other theoretical constructs in which to

> make my associations in

> order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel

> movements as the

> symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or

> obstruction of qi.

>

> I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first

> encounters with Japanese

> acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating

> chronic fatigue.... he

> kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to

> if someone asked me

> this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to

> treat diseases... now I

> know I need to better understand how to assess and

> influence the person

> through their qi.>>

> I agree with you and I appreciate your honesty in

> this post.

>

>

> >>If I were to see a wind cold attack that started

> showing up patches of

> purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be

> thinking about Warm

> disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital,

> and not cold

> penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun.

> However, if I don't know

> this history then I might think that all wind cold

> should be treated with Lu

> 7 and Co 4. >.

>

> It is very hard to know all, so than we have others

> practicing where we

> reffer for consultation and hopefully a brake in the

> case.

>

>

>

> >>I may not realise that excess Lung conditions

> arise from the Liver and I

> may continue to try to tonify the already excess

> Lung and ignore the

> distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise

> from, knowing which

> style I am doing tells to those who understand

> history, which schools I

> follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately,

> for many TCM means what

> Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. >>

>

> The word monolithic singular truth gave a headache

> temporal related ) to

> high of a vocabulary for my needs )

>

>

> >>

> I have only a splattering of understanding

> acupuncture concepts within their

> own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit

> of knowledge has helped

> me to understand and organise where I am treating

> from. A frame of

> reference. And like others have said, the more I

> treat the less I am sure

> of, however, I know at least a little bit about

> where the ideas that

> consciously inform me come from.

> Sharon..

>

> I feel the saem the more I am revelad of this

> energetic world the more I can

> see of It's infinite source of truth,

> principles,theories and possibilities.

>

> Vanessa

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be

> largely an ilusion

>

>

> >>Sharon wrote :

> >

> > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of

> > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of

> > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The

> > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in

> the

> > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we

> find

> > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in

> another

> > to the element of Water. So which source do you

> > mean going back to? Where do you place your

> > authority?

>

> The authority goes to the essence " energetic

> system "

> In this energetic system there is a world within

> with

> many different principles, some use bleeding some

> don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5

> elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points

> only,

> some don't, etc... for the different reasons that

>

=== message truncated ===