Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

September 14, 2003

Hi Vanessa,

I suspect many of us are more comfortable following in the steps of those who

have gone before, rather than orgainising material into a new arrangement.

Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon?

Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of

the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was

between isolated groups of monkeys.

Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to

wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.

So perhaps one way it takes is serendipity with other people / events to

reorganise information into a new or varied system. At the moment I spend some

time with a kinesiologist, and that collaboration has brought newer ways, to me

that is, of making treatment. His organisation of information is different to

mine. And instead of going, " No in AP this means that! " , we went 'Oh, I wonder

how that works, I wonder what ramifications that brings. Gee, what if I could

do this in AP? " We are using the organized information from kinesiology in new

ways to both approaches. "

I accept treatment from someone I respect. Whether they use a formalised sytem

or refine that one they studied or created their own, first I have to have

respect for them.

Sometimes I think I limit my treatment because the theory I might be using says

" It has to be like this. " ie no cure; or first they must pray; or that they

cannot heal for they had wm surgery and had the part removed; or that a scar is

left and first it must be bridged. So as much as theories are useful they too

set limitations.

As far as paying dues, what people are callling TCM is it self an abridge

version of what is a history of over 2,000 yrs of practice. What got put in?

What got left out? What changed in the translation? And many practitioners

don't want to go back and puzzle over the Han classics they are comfortable and

do great work from the abridged TCM.... but hey lets be honesty enough to

recognise that what passes for TCM is a reconstructed system and not some final

word.

Manaka wrote something like this; " If I made a treatment for x disease and wrote

it down, would people in 100 years time say that this is the best treatment for

x disease? "

Shall we then limit discussion on this group to some approved list of written

traditions?

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 14, 2003 5:19 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

--- <>

Sharon wrote:

> Hi Vanessa,

> Why not do what ever. I mean if it ends up being

> clinically effective?!? I suspect many of us don't

> hold enough focus of spirit or mind to do this

> easily.

That is the problem you get away from the teachings

from the real teachers ,bonafide ones, the ones that

really understand TCM and the theories behind it

and you get lost.

There is why many in our profession can't explain the

process behind this energetic world, they are in their

own playing teachers themselves without really

following a real teacher.

> I think maybe this is what the term Maya, or

> illusion might be eluding to, and we might get

> caught up in the illusion, heck we invest alot of

> time and resources into our perception of reality;

> we practice it over and over and over again. We

> think of it as real, when it is just one 'real' from

> many 'real' we could choose from or if we are up to

> it, we could actually create our own 'real'.

> Sharon

I am not sure what to say ) It is hard when we are

in the ilusion that everything is an ilusion and don't

know where reality starts.

There is ilusion, and reality.

I can see why some people are confused . We think we

don't need a teacher or to follow their footsteps.

that is why many in TCM groups don't bring the names

and great works of this amazing teachers , such as Van

Nghi and many others to the room.

Many feel offended or just can't handle having to

accept their teachings and their realization of the

TCM world that not many can see and we think is all an

ilusion.

My question is : Would you want to be treated or give

yourself to a practitioner that thinks is all an

ilusion and I really don't need to follow any teacher

or theories comming from them. I can create my own?

This groups is about TCM and many here accept very

easy the motion that the theories , processes within

TCM is all an ilusion, Placebos , neurological,

neurochemical etc...

That is because we don't really want to pay our dues

to the path that it takes to realize this energetic

system.

For the question: is TCM energetic world a reality ?,

just go infront of one of these great teachers such as

Van NGHI and his amazing results and you will figure

out , unless the pink elephant is so directly seated

on our eyes that we cannot even perceive their

realization .

Vanessa

September 14, 2003

Hello Anand,

What you say about truth reminds me of travelling towards the horizon. No

matter how far I travel a) I never get there and b) it always changes!

Sharon

-

anand bapat

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:08 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

hi sharon,

there is really only the truth in life.

but as you hav rightly mentioned we all see part of

the truth & believe that to be the REAL TRUTH. then we

follow it all along blindly till we find something

further along which convinces us that the new finding

is the real truth. we are such a hasty society that we

ruush headlomng into everything & then find out that

the truth was elusive.

we will get to the truth one day.

till then we have to keep going the way we are &

manage.

living in this world of part truths to seek the real

truth.

anand

--- <>

wrote: > Hi Vanessa,

> Why not do what ever. I mean if it ends up being

> clinically effective?!? I suspect many of us don't

> hold enough focus of spirit or mind to do this

> easily.

>

> That's right though, we just need to create our own

> styles theories etc, yet perhaps we need another's

> reality to start us off, however, unfortunately,

> perhaps we take their system as real and forgot why

> we started in their footsteps.

>

> Or perhaps we believe there can be only one truth

> and can't handle contradictions where the opposite

> works just as well as the 'rule', so we have to find

> a system that agrees with our experience of reality

> and stick to it like glue... hoping that no one

> changes the rules, or else we will be sunk.

>

> I supose some masters teach their style because some

> one said, " Hey I like that, will you teach me? " And

> so begins the a reality going from inside one person

> across to another with the use of language to

> explain the 'why's and wherefore's'. A new system

> is now birthed.

>

> I think maybe this is what the term Maya, or

> illusion might be eluding to, and we might get

> caught up in the illusion, heck we invest alot of

> time and resources into our perception of reality;

> we practice it over and over and over again. We

> think of it as real, when it is just one 'real' from

> many 'real' we could choose from or if we are up to

> it, we could actually create our own 'real'.

> Sharon

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:51 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

>

> Hello Sharon, we need to understand that Bruce Lee

> was

> a teacher and he himself was teaching his own

> style.

> You don't see in his classes the students doing

> whatever they came to mind. They was following his

> style and when students got away from the essence

> he

> himslef corret them up.

> Many of the great teachers states that we need to

> find

> our own understanding and realize the teaching on

> our

> own, but that doesn't mean just do whatever you

> imagine or whatever comes to your mind. If that

> was

> true we didn't need them, we just neede to create

> our

> own styles and theories, principles etc....

> If that was the case they would not teach a style

> and

> spend soo much time of their lifes teaching and

> directing the students to that road.

> There is nothing wrong in realizing on our own,

> and

> that has to come , or we will never really enter

> the

> teachings of this great teachers.

> I had some great teachers and they told me: if you

> don't realize this teachings on your own , than

> your

> understanding will only be technical and

> superficial.

> Vanessa

>

> >>

> >

> > Bruce Lee, the martial artist, said something

> about

> > each one of us finding our own form of the

> martial

> > art and not necessarily following older more

> > traditional forms. I think this is like our ap.

> It

> > is good to walk in the footsteps of the

> 'masters',

> > but and this is my reality but, and no one

> else's, I

> > agree with what I thought Bruce Lee to mean, and

> > that is to find one's own footsteps. Or if you

> like

> > create one's own illusion of reality and create

> the

> > 'rules' that govern that reality.

> >

> > Maybe its about learning to do just this rather

> than

> > the reality one creates. IE maybe it is the

> creative

> > process itself that is the importance and not

> the

> > illusions we call reality and spend so much

> energy

> > promoting or defending or destroying another's

> > 'reality'.

> > Yours somewhere out there in esoteric

> land...dash it

> > I found the quick sand....again....

> > Sharon

> > -

> >

> > To:

> Chinese Medicine

> > Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:13 PM

> > Re: Felix man's latest book

> states

> > acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

> >

> > I find it hard to believe that the TCM system

> is

> > open

> > choice to coin tossing and open mind to the

> point

> > that

> > we can use our loose imagination to figure

> things

> > out,

> > no wonder we are all lost.

> > I think we need to get closer to the ones that

> > really

> > knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of

> > their

> > understanding, teachings and pratice.

> > They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and

> if

> > we

> > want to enter this understanding we need to

> follow

> > their footsteeps.

> > Can we agree to this or to assume following

> their

> > foosteeps would be a sign of not so open

> mind??

> > Vanessa

> >

> > <Alon Wrote :

> > >

> > > >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man

> has

> > no

> > > depth in his understanding of acup. You may

> not

> > like

> > > his views, you may argue his rational, but

> you

> > can

> > > not say he does not know the field.

> Considering

> > that

> > > RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a

> coin

> > toss,

> > > our minds need to stay open to any argument

> or

> > > development.

> > > Alon

> > >

> >

> > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web

> site

> > design software

> >

September 15, 2003

To compare monkeys with masters in the field of TCM is not a good begining to

prove your level of expertize in learning on you own.

Vanessa( did I said that I would just be a seer?))

>>

Sharon wrote it:

Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon?

Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of

the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was

between isolated groups of monkeys.

Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to

wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.>>

September 15, 2003

I understand that things will develop but you need to go back to the source

where this great personalities have been and admire their foundation, standard

and teachings. The way you say is like you can in your own start your own

version of TCM. Good luck. Can you share some of you discoveries?

I have one advantage I am backed up by the past teachers and their realizations,

I try my best to follow their views and offcourse enter this dimension hoping to

realize it myself. But others are in the field of trial and error sometimes for

20 years or more, until they came to find out yes the right way was writeen long

time ago and I missed.

Vanessa

>>Sharon:

Manaka wrote something like this; " If I made a treatment for x disease and wrote

it down, would people in 100 years time say that this is the best treatment for

x disease? "

Shall we then limit discussion on this group to some approved list of written

traditions?

September 15, 2003

Vanessa,

My apologise if you thought my intention was to prove any level of expertise in

learning on my own. I just treat people and use the tools at hand. Occasionaly

I might find another way to use a tool.

I could have said that electricity was discovered about the same time at

different places in the world; it is just that the concept of morphological

fields have been using the term 100th monkey phenomenon and the example of the

female monkey to illustrate the concept. So I was following the footsteps of

others.

Regards Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 15, 2003 9:09 AM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

To compare monkeys with masters in the field of TCM is not a good begining to

prove your level of expertize in learning on you own.

Vanessa( did I said that I would just be a seer?))

>>

Sharon wrote it:

Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon?

Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts

of the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was

between isolated groups of monkeys.

Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to

wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.>>

September 15, 2003

Ok lets shake hands .

Enougt of this monkey stuff )

I myself feel unconforatble in having to argue issues when the best is on the

taste of these theories and principles.

I had one teacher coming from a tibetan style of medicine where he used

energetic mechanism of the body to stimulate results.

I never saw he lossing a case eventhough he use to say, don't expect cures all

the time.

I saw enought and I have no doubt in the following a great teacher's mind,

because soon or latter you will reach a very deeper plataform of understanding

set out by his direction.

Vanessa

>>

<> wrote:

Vanessa,

My apologise if you thought my intention was to prove any level of expertise in

learning on my own. I just treat people and use the tools at hand. Occasionaly

I might find another way to use a tool.

I could have said that electricity was discovered about the same time at

different places in the world; it is just that the concept of morphological

fields have been using the term 100th monkey phenomenon and the example of the

female monkey to illustrate the concept. So I was following the footsteps of

others.

Regards Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 15, 2003 9:09 AM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

To compare monkeys with masters in the field of TCM is not a good begining to

prove your level of expertize in learning on you own.

Vanessa( did I said that I would just be a seer?))

>>

Sharon wrote it:

Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon?

Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts

of the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was

between isolated groups of monkeys.

Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to

wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.>>

September 15, 2003

Vanessa,

Going back to the source may mean different things to different people.

For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of Beijing, for another it means

TCM taught out of Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The classics

written in roughly 2,000 years ago in the Han period, contradict themselves. In

one we find damp pertaining to the element of Earth in another to the element of

Water. So which source do you mean going back to? Where do you place your

authority?

One of my TCM teachers tells the story of being in one of the Chinese hospitals

and the master told him to insert the needle at UB40, which he did, the master

said " No, no, no, " and took it out and then inserted at UB40 and then left the

room, another master entered the room and said " What is this? " To which my

teacher replied, " UB40 " , and the second master said " No, No, No! " and took out

the needle and relocated the point UB40. The second master left the room and

the my teacher watched as the patient just started laughing out loud. Who is

right here?

So one of my big discoveries is that there are many right answers to the same

question, some of which contradict each other in the extreme. What I strive to

find in the moments of making a treatment is the best right answer there and

then. For me, the best right answer is the one that makes the shifts in the

treatment.

For example last week the third treatment for a woman who complained of

arthritis.

I made the root treatment a non-inserted TH based on her sho, I then did direct

moxa on the bunions, (I think this is Japanese style, I picked up but can't tell

you who it is but it is the best way to get rid of pain and reduce the bunions I

have come across), I then inserted a needle at GB43 the water point because she

said she had bad sciatica only after standing for a long time. So over standing

weakens the Kidney qi, and this was on the GB channel, hence the water pt on the

GB channel. I checked the pt information in Deadman, nothing there except

perhaps moving heat from the body; her pulse was quite rapid.

In addition she had a ganglion near Lu 7. I had said we could do a technique I

learnt in TCM studies of using a hot needle into the ganglion, however, I would

prefer to use the ganglion as a yardstick and as it disappears we will know that

your circulation is improved as the stagnation resolves.

She had been massaging the fingers for arthritis, as I had explained the

relationship in hand AP to the fingers, she had found much improvement in her

neck by doing the hand massage according to Korean hand AP point location

(thanks Holger).

In the course of the treatment the ganglion disappeared. We were both

surprised, she had had it since childhood and her dad has one.

This is just how I organised the information.....this time; I am eclectic, that

is my nature; so the source is really many sources and exploring the differences

between sources is such a source of information in its own right. I now tend to

use the pulse as a teaching guide within my treatment. The more consolidated

the pulse, the more it comes to the right depth, the right speed, the right

magnitude, the right stillness, the right fullness, I know that the treatment

has gone well and I await her next visit to hear what that means to her.

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 15, 2003 9:20 AM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

I understand that things will develop but you need to go back to the source

where this great personalities have been and admire their foundation, standard

and teachings. The way you say is like you can in your own start your own

version of TCM. Good luck. Can you share some of you discoveries?

I have one advantage I am backed up by the past teachers and their

realizations, I try my best to follow their views and offcourse enter this

dimension hoping to realize it myself. But others are in the field of trial and

error sometimes for 20 years or more, until they came to find out yes the right

way was writeen long time ago and I missed.

Vanessa

>>Sharon:

Manaka wrote something like this; " If I made a treatment for x disease and

wrote it down, would people in 100 years time say that this is the best

treatment for x disease? "

Shall we then limit discussion on this group to some approved list of written

traditions?

September 15, 2003

To follow a great teacher's mind, is a journey in itself.

Sharon

-

" " <vbirang

Monday, September 15, 2003 10:09 AM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely

an ilusion

Ok lets shake hands .

Enougt of this monkey stuff )

I myself feel unconforatble in having to argue issues when the best is on

the taste of these theories and principles.

I had one teacher coming from a tibetan style of medicine where he used

energetic mechanism of the body to stimulate results.

I never saw he lossing a case eventhough he use to say, don't expect cures

all the time.

I saw enought and I have no doubt in the following a great teacher's mind,

because soon or latter you will reach a very deeper plataform of

understanding set out by his direction.

Vanessa

>>

<> wrote:

Vanessa,

My apologise if you thought my intention was to prove any level of expertise

in learning on my own. I just treat people and use the tools at hand.

Occasionaly I might find another way to use a tool.

I could have said that electricity was discovered about the same time at

different places in the world; it is just that the concept of morphological

fields have been using the term 100th monkey phenomenon and the example of

the female monkey to illustrate the concept. So I was following the

footsteps of others.

Regards Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 15, 2003 9:09 AM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be

largely an ilusion

To compare monkeys with masters in the field of TCM is not a good begining

to prove your level of expertize in learning on you own.

Vanessa( did I said that I would just be a seer?))

>>

Sharon wrote it:

Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon?

Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other

parts of the world without any contact between the participants. In this

case it was between isolated groups of monkeys.

Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she

started to wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.>>

September 15, 2003

So when old-timers like Mann, make statements about acupuncture that

shake standard doctrines, I pay attention.

>>>I would too, even if just to open another possibility or door

Alon

September 15, 2003

find it hard to believe that the TCM system is open

choice to coin tossing and open mind to the point that

we can use our loose imagination to figure things out,

no wonder we are all lost.

>>>>The comment is or RTCs, your believe has nothing to do with it. Just look at

the entire western literature. In that comment i was not including Asian studies

Alon

September 15, 2003

has merely a role in activating the healing process (or growing process) that is

already resident in the client.

>>>>Emmanuel these are concepts are from western healing traditions. According

to our friend unschuld they are not to be found any were in CM

Alon

September 15, 2003

I am impressed after all the books, seminars, writings, courses, teachers, about

TCM we can still say is all an ilusion, Placebo effect to most of the

treatments, everything but what TCM has been essentially based on " energetic

system with it's theories, principles etc... "

>>>>There we go again with black and white thinking. Why do people insist in

this type of rhetoric. Black and white thinking does not allow for the openness

needed for critical evaluation.

Alon

September 15, 2003

Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of

the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was

between isolated groups of monkeys.

>>>Certainly most developments in medicine mirrors the timing in west and east.

Alon

September 15, 2003

Sharon wrote:

So one of my big discoveries is that there are many right answers to the same

question, some of which contradict each other in the extreme. What I strive to

find in the moments of making a treatment is the best right answer there and

then. For me, the best right answer is the one that makes the shifts in the

treatment.

Hi Sharon,

I'm trained in Western science with a few years in medical school in addition to

other graduate studies. I've noted to my students that in Western medicine part

of the training is to pose many correct answers and to ask the student to pick

which one to use and to support their choice. I've taken on tutoring nurses and

medical students for their boards and have noted that this is the exercise that

is most often demanded of them. I greatly appreciate that you demand this

exercise of yourself. I sense that life in general offers us many correct

options ... some better than others.

Emmanuel Segmen

September 15, 2003

>>Sharon wrote :

>

> For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of

> Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of

> Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The

> classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in the

> Han period, contradict themselves. In one we find

> damp pertaining to the element of Earth in another

> to the element of Water. So which source do you

> mean going back to? Where do you place your

> authority?

The authority goes to the essence " energetic system "

In this energetic system there is a world within with

many different principles, some use bleeding some

don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5

elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points only,

some don't, etc... for the different reasons that

belongs to this energetic world.

So the idea here is the Foundation and the authority

falls where you as a student can understand. There is

no sense in following a very complex theory,

principles if we can't understand, but that doesn't

mean the theory is faulty or that the energetic system

is an ilusion.

> One of my TCM teachers tells the story of being in

> one of the Chinese hospitals and the master told him

> to insert the needle at UB40, which he did, the

> master said " No, no, no, " and took it out and then

> inserted at UB40 and then left the room, another

> master entered the room and said " What is this? " To

> which my teacher replied, " UB40 " , and the second

> master said " No, No, No! " and took out the needle

> and relocated the point UB40. The second master

> left the room and the my teacher watched as the

> patient just started laughing out loud. Who is

> right here?

I find it difficult to find 2 masters in the same

room, they prefer having their own space where they

enjoy their discoveries and practice.

But the answer is both of them are right .

If you ask them to demonstrate they will get the best

results using their BL 40 as they wish.

But the point here is :

What do you find understandable or what works better

for you?

Again that doesn't mean they are wrong or that is an

ilusion, is just that they have different ways of

doing things as masters in the common ground energy

system as in TCM.

I could tell you another story about St 36 on 3

different places by great teachers. Question are they

wrong or contradictory?

No . That is their discovery and I must say amazing

results sometimes just using that point.

Another question: Why can't we drop this different

teachers and just be on our own?

The answers is they are the great teachers and we

students, when the time come that maybe we become on

their level of results than yes you can be on your own

and you should. But always having the respect that

they was the ones that lead us into this discoveries.

Vanessa

September 15, 2003

Hello Sharon, reading your treatment plan I find it

amazing and full of fundamental theories and

principles that are of the highest quality.

Sorry for any incnvenience I brought to you, but it is

a pleasure to discuss this issues with .

Vanessa

>>Sharon wrote :

> For example last week the third treatment for a

> woman who complained of arthritis.

>

> I made the root treatment a non-inserted TH based on

> her sho, I then did direct moxa on the bunions, (I

> think this is Japanese style, I picked up but can't

> tell you who it is but it is the best way to get rid

> of pain and reduce the bunions I have come across),

> I then inserted a needle at GB43 the water point

> because she said she had bad sciatica only after

> standing for a long time. So over standing weakens

> the Kidney qi, and this was on the GB channel, hence

> the water pt on the GB channel. I checked the pt

> information in Deadman, nothing there except perhaps

> moving heat from the body; her pulse was quite

> rapid.

>

> In addition she had a ganglion near Lu 7. I had

> said we could do a technique I learnt in TCM studies

> of using a hot needle into the ganglion, however, I

> would prefer to use the ganglion as a yardstick and

> as it disappears we will know that your circulation

> is improved as the stagnation resolves.

>

> She had been massaging the fingers for arthritis, as

> I had explained the relationship in hand AP to the

> fingers, she had found much improvement in her neck

> by doing the hand massage according to Korean hand

> AP point location (thanks Holger).

>

> In the course of the treatment the ganglion

> disappeared. We were both surprised, she had had it

> since childhood and her dad has one.

>

> This is just how I organised the

> information.....this time; I am eclectic, that is my

> nature; so the source is really many sources and

> exploring the differences between sources is such a

> source of information in its own right. I now tend

> to use the pulse as a teaching guide within my

> treatment. The more consolidated the pulse, the

> more it comes to the right depth, the right speed,

> the right magnitude, the right stillness, the right

> fullness, I know that the treatment has gone well

> and I await her next visit to hear what that means

> to her.

>

> Sharon

>

September 15, 2003

--- <>

wrote:

> To follow a great teacher's mind, is a journey in

> itself.

> Sharon

You go girl )

Vanessa

September 16, 2003

Nice rhetoric Vanessa,

Yet what is your energetic system based upon?

What pulse system do you follow and where does it arise from?

What is your diagnostic system/s?

Do you see assessing the qi of the organs or the qi of the meridians from the

pulse?

There are many commentaries on the 5E approach whose do you follow ?

What do you mean that the authority falls where the student understands?

I was taught historically that the theory followed the practice, not that the

practice followed the theory. Theory should be useable and understandable, imo,

and within the context and content of its time. It is perhaps the

rationalisation of the treatment, sometimes in hindsight sometimes with

foresight, in my experience. If it is not understandable or useable then what

point the theory? And perhaps this reflects the teacher's comprehension more so

than the theory.

For instance I do see in a modern day school, that of the Toyohari, that they

use specific interpretations of specific Chapters of the Classic of

Difficulties. However, if something is more clinically effective in practice,

then they deviate from the theory. For instance they find that Kid 7 is a

better Kidney qi tonification pt than Kid 3. They find Lu 5 a better

tonification pt than Lu 9. when tonifying the Kidney qi...in the clinic. They

continually review their 'theory' in light of their practice and clinical

effectiveness.

Yes masters get the best results doing what they do best. And my point is, not

that UB 40 is located here or there or next door to here or there. It is the

point that gives the practitioner results for each or any given treatment. Too

much emphasis is on the technical pt location and not enough on feeling for the

doorway, the vortex, the in and the out of the information of the qi, through

what we call acupoints.

You keep calling it TCM. TCM is a very definable system of medicine; it was

developed and taught in a specific manner (classroom style) at a specific point

in time (1950's onwards); it falls perhaps under a wider umbrella called by

Birch and Felt in Understanding Acupuncture, TEAM; Traditional East Asian

Medicine. TCM is a curriculum adopted by a number of acupuncture schools

around the world. You can, if you like, just add stuff and call it TCM, but

that is not what is taught as TCM. Van Nghi's work for instance is not TCM.

A little quote from Birch and Felt, (1999:52) about the establishment of TCM,

" Traditional medical practice was saved, but the qi paradigm was its ransom. As

Paul Unschuld notes, it was now the branches of a tree, the philosophical roots

of which had been severed. Nonetheless, for the first time in 20th century,

Chinese medicine had a firm cultural position, a clear economic role, and a

powerful political system. " Remember this is not long after acupuncture in

China was almost wiped out.

When we understand where in time and in what historical context the different

theories where written we start to recognise the systems of associations we are

using. These for me are some of the connections to philosophical roots which

were severed according to Unschuld as cited by Birch and Felt. TCM college

failed to teach me that is was based on a 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me

instead that TCM was IT. Nothing else was acupuncture. We went in college from

wonderful discussions of qi and yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to

learn a whole heap of zang fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to

all that wonderful Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was rotate

learning functions and indications of acupoints. There was no room for concepts

such as too much water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or lack of fire

to evaporate the water. It was this point does that approach.

With the maturity that there is much more to acupuncture than TCM school, came

the ability to adapt the practice to what I find in clinic, rather than chasing

you point formulea to treat western disaeas. For instance finding bowel

movements between 5-7 at night allows me to consider time based treatments. How

to get the bowels to move back to the mornings? However, if there is an absence

of regular bowel movements, then I may need to consider other theoretical

constructs in which to make my associations in order to select my acupoints. I

might see the bowel movements as the symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack

or obstruction of qi.

I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first encounters with Japanese

acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating chronic fatigue.... he kind

of looked at me strangely... today, I would to if someone asked me this. Then I

thought I had to find more formulae to treat diseases... now I know I need to

better understand how to assess and influence the person through their qi.

If I were to see a wind cold attack that started showing up patches of purple

skin, then I would know that I ought to be thinking about Warm disease theory,

and probably a referral to hospital, and not cold penetration as written on in

the Shan Han Lun. However, if I don't know this history then I might think that

all wind cold should be treated with Lu 7 and Co 4.

I may not realise that excess Lung conditions arise from the Liver and I may

continue to try to tonify the already excess Lung and ignore the distressed

Liver. Knowing where our theories arise from, knowing which style I am doing

tells to those who understand history, which schools I follow, which premises I

am holding. Unfortunately, for many TCM means what Bob says, that is some

monolithic singular truth.

I have only a splattering of understanding acupuncture concepts within their own

time and place, yet I can say that even that bit of knowledge has helped me to

understand and organise where I am treating from. A frame of reference. And

like others have said, the more I treat the less I am sure of, however, I know

at least a little bit about where the ideas that consciously inform me come

from.

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

>>Sharon wrote :

>

> For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of

> Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of

> Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The

> classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in the

> Han period, contradict themselves. In one we find

> damp pertaining to the element of Earth in another

> to the element of Water. So which source do you

> mean going back to? Where do you place your

> authority?

The authority goes to the essence " energetic system "

In this energetic system there is a world within with

many different principles, some use bleeding some

don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5

elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points only,

some don't, etc... for the different reasons that

belongs to this energetic world.

So the idea here is the Foundation and the authority

falls where you as a student can understand. There is

no sense in following a very complex theory,

principles if we can't understand, but that doesn't

mean the theory is faulty or that the energetic system

is an ilusion.

> One of my TCM teachers tells the story of being in

> one of the Chinese hospitals and the master told him

> to insert the needle at UB40, which he did, the

> master said " No, no, no, " and took it out and then

> inserted at UB40 and then left the room, another

> master entered the room and said " What is this? " To

> which my teacher replied, " UB40 " , and the second

> master said " No, No, No! " and took out the needle

> and relocated the point UB40. The second master

> left the room and the my teacher watched as the

> patient just started laughing out loud. Who is

> right here?

I find it difficult to find 2 masters in the same

room, they prefer having their own space where they

enjoy their discoveries and practice.

But the answer is both of them are right .

If you ask them to demonstrate they will get the best

results using their BL 40 as they wish.

But the point here is :

What do you find understandable or what works better

for you?

Again that doesn't mean they are wrong or that is an

ilusion, is just that they have different ways of

doing things as masters in the common ground energy

system as in TCM.

I could tell you another story about St 36 on 3

different places by great teachers. Question are they

wrong or contradictory?

No . That is their discovery and I must say amazing

results sometimes just using that point.

Another question: Why can't we drop this different

teachers and just be on our own?

The answers is they are the great teachers and we

students, when the time come that maybe we become on

their level of results than yes you can be on your own

and you should. But always having the respect that

they was the ones that lead us into this discoveries.

Vanessa

September 16, 2003

Hello Sharon Ican see you have some questionssssssssssssssssssssss

My pleasure

>> <> wrote:

Nice rhetoric Vanessa,

Yet what is your energetic system based upon?>>

Based on meridians, and all the principles of chi within the body and outside

the body as enviromental etc..

The energetic system that I follow is the ones that TCM is made of.

>>What pulse system do you follow and where does it arise from?>>

Pulse arise from the qi living system in health or dysfunction, a good source of

diagnosis or analises of the internal system, meridian etc..

I follow the LiShi Shen , some tibetan and other source from Beijing.

>>What is your diagnostic system/s?>>

Pulse , tongue, listening, I pay attention to allot of the TCM principles such

as 5 elements theory and I look for the balance within this theory in the

patient.

HAra diagnosis.

I use other systems of treatment but would not be nice to give my tricks all ,

wouldn't you agree?? )

>>Do you see assessing the qi of the organs or the qi of the meridians from the

pulse?>>

Not just from the pulse but Hara and tongue.

>>There are many commentaries on the 5E approach whose do you follow ?>.

The japanese style.

>>What do you mean that the authority falls where the student understands?>>

There is authority and that is fine, but unless the student or the practitioner

realizes it, the authority that is within the thepry, principle or way of

practice will not be revealed to us.

I believe in that TCM knowledge is best given by someone that past the invisible

line, went beyound the logic of physics, neurologic,neurochemical, mental,

etc...

I believe too that this energetic world cannot be conquered by intelectual

abilities but revelead to us.

That doesn't mean we stop looking to understand it. But one thing is necessary,

faith in those that taught us about this TCM world principles, theories etc..

If the teacher has the energetic realization he can pass it to us, in time.

>>I was taught historically that the theory followed the practice, not that the

practice followed the theory. Theory should be useable and understandable, imo,

and within the context and content of its time. It is perhaps the

rationalisation of the treatment, sometimes in hindsight sometimes with

foresight, in my experience. If it is not understandable or useable then what

point the theory? And perhaps this reflects the teacher's comprehension more so

than the theory. >.

I teach some subjects where I am really good at it, no further comments too much

information )

But I tell my students you need to have the principle, the theory and go from

there into the practice. Offcourse they need to have the tools and the

techniques to reach the changes required, but the principle is a world in

itself.

If we can enter the principle the result will come true as magic or miracle. " I

hope someone doesn't use this comment as religious statement ) "

Do you understand ?

I can get a principle and enter and right there you will see the results.

Principles and theory came from the living system as in within the TCMedicine.

The principles and theory is just a way to enter this internal invisible

physiology based on meridians, qi/blood.

>>For instance I do see in a modern day school, that of the Toyohari, that they

use specific interpretations of specific Chapters of the Classic of

Difficulties. However, if something is more clinically effective in practice,

then they deviate from the theory. For instance they find that Kid 7 is a

better Kidney qi tonification pt than Kid 3. They find Lu 5 a better

tonification pt than Lu 9. when tonifying the Kidney qi...in the clinic. They

continually review their 'theory' in light of their practice and clinical

effectiveness. >.

Yes this doesn't mean that the other way as Kid 3 is not another principle or

theory in itself.

The TCm system is an infinite amount of living knowledge for practical use in

many ways physiological, mental, emotional and many other ways that we didn't

reach yet.

SO sometimes seems that one theory contradicts others or that one is different

than others, or that one is better to use in one patient and other theory for

the other patient. It is an art and a living system.

Itis myopinion that we should learn about this different theories and principles

and try t understand and whatever works for us as results for patients we should

keep and go deeeper in the understanding.

Richard told the group one time that he knew one doctor that only use Li 4 for

all types of problem.

Without going to far in the explanation, we need to observe here that this

person could go into a deepr function in the use of the Li 4 as a point to

influence other energetic systems.

It is a world within the energetic world.

>>Yes masters get the best results doing what they do best. And my point is,

not that UB 40 is located here or there or next door to here or there. It is

the point that gives the practitioner results for each or any given treatment.

Too much emphasis is on the technical pt location and not enough on feeling for

the doorway, the vortex, the in and the out of the information of the qi,

through what we call acupoints.>>

I agree.

>>You keep calling it TCM. TCM is a very definable system of medicine; it was

developed and taught in a specific manner (classroom style) at a specific point

in time (1950's onwards); it falls perhaps under a wider umbrella called by

Birch and Felt in Understanding Acupuncture, TEAM; Traditional East Asian

Medicine. TCM is a curriculum adopted by a number of acupuncture schools

around the world. You can, if you like, just add stuff and call it TCM, but

that is not what is taught as TCM. Van Nghi's work for instance is not TCM. >.

TCM in my view is anythingthat follows the principle energy as chi and blood,

meridians and any concept that is grounded in energetic system as majority of

the Acupuncture and herbal books are saying.

Again I would not spend time arguing the origin of my view as TCM . In my

opinion or it is based on energetic principles or not, with history or not. The

energetic world is invisible and will take faith in the biggining and

realization of this world in the end.

I was really lucky I had a tibetan teacher and he pretty much kicked me in. So

there you go, it has nothing to do with believe is a reality by nature , is just

that many doesn't see it,but can be observed in their manifestations.

Vanessa

September 16, 2003

>>

Sharon wrote it:.