Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

[Guest guest]

It was extremely surprising for Mann to make such statements when in fact

channels/meridians exist.

 

Richard

 

> Felix Mann's latest book Reiventing Acupuncture.

>

> He wrote many books on the subject and now I guess he just woke up to

> reality.

>

> He " offers a new spin on the topic,proposing that acupuncture

> points,meridians, and the laws of acupuncture are largely an ilusion. " "

>

> My points is:

>

> SHould we question his authority in this so-called discover?

>

> Or from the fear to take side in any CM matter , just go along with anyone

> ideas, interviews, books etc..., taking in consideration we can't see the

> meridians or points.

>

>

>

> I am not in favor of politics in medicine but for some reason is a battle up

> hill, I guess is human nature or monkey ( I am not sure who came first )

>

> Vanessa

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Felix Mann's latest book Reiventing Acupuncture.

 

He wrote many books on the subject and now I guess he just woke up to reality.

 

He " offers a new spin on the topic,proposing that acupuncture points,meridians,

and the laws of acupuncture are largely an ilusion. " "

 

My points is:

 

SHould we question his authority in this so-called discover?

 

Or from the fear to take side in any CM matter , just go along with anyone

ideas, interviews, books etc..., taking in consideration we can't see the

meridians or points.

 

 

 

I am not in favor of politics in medicine but for some reason is a battle up

hill, I guess is human nature or monkey ( I am not sure who came first )

 

Vanessa

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hi,

i think felix mann must be crazy to write something so

stupid as that.

he has been treating pts & getting results. is he

trying to say that he was treating silly points in an

organised manner & getting results like some magician

which could be reproducible & taught to people like he

did.

so something is drastically wrong.

besides there are lots of things we do not see. we

believe there are galaxies around the universe but we

have never seen them,we know love exists but we cannot

see it. we can only see its effect. same goes with

anger, breath, sensation, hearing. does it all mean

that it does not exist. till the sound was picked up

as a wave it was still sound & people accepted it as

sound. they did not say it doid not exist. same is

with acup. till the tools are developed to be able to

locate, identify, quantify acup points & meridians, we

will be at aloss.

but surely felix mann should know all this.

maybe senility gets the better of us all

anand

 

 

 

--- acudoc11 wrote: > It was extremely

surprising for Mann to make such

> statements when in fact

> channels/meridians exist.

>

> Richard

>

> > Felix Mann's latest book Reiventing Acupuncture.

> >

> > He wrote many books on the subject and now I guess

> he just woke up to

> > reality.

> >

> > He " offers a new spin on the topic,proposing that

> acupuncture

> > points,meridians, and the laws of acupuncture are

> largely an ilusion. " "

> >

> > My points is:

> >

> > SHould we question his authority in this so-called

> discover?

> >

> > Or from the fear to take side in any CM matter ,

> just go along with anyone

> > ideas, interviews, books etc..., taking in

> consideration we can't see the

> > meridians or points.

> >

> >

> >

> > I am not in favor of politics in medicine but for

> some reason is a battle up

> > hill, I guess is human nature or monkey ( I am not

> sure who came first )

> >

> > Vanessa

> >

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

______________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

For a logical debate...then let's have one.

 

I didn't hear anyone say that Mann does not have any depth in his

understanding.

 

There was a comparison made by Vanessa between certain positional statements

(made by whomever) that would be interesting to see how they matched up

compared to Van Nghi and other Masters.

 

Mann's ideas apparently at point seem to be just the opposite of what you are

suggesting should be for all others....and that is 'staying open'.

 

A general attitude which time and again continues to appear........that some

individuals always seem to want to limit others to only their beliefs but seem

not to want to allow others to have the freedom to their own beliefs which

not only may be as valid....may be even more encompassing.

 

It could also very easily be said and verified that even though some (no one

in particular) who have practiced acupuncture for many years.....still do not

know very much about what they do.

 

You are right Alon....all of our minds need to stay open to the

possibilities.

 

Richard

 

 

 

> It is very easy to state acupuncture as an ilusion, to

> be mainly a neurological/ chemical process behind

> acupuncture etc.... , but when you bring into the room

> masters, professors, great doctors or Van Nghi, than

> we can really see the size of the person and their

> statements concerning real undrstanding /realization

> within their own statements.

>

> >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man has no depth in his

> understanding of acup. You may not like his views, you may argue his rational,

but you

> can not say he does not know the field. Considering that RCTs on acupuncture

> are about 50/50 ie a coin toss, our minds need to stay open to any argument or

> development.

> Alon

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

A general attitude which time and again continues to appear........that some

individuals always seem to want to limit others to only their beliefs but

seem

not to want to allow others to have the freedom to their own beliefs which

not only may be as valid....may be even more encompassing. Richard

 

 

> >>>Are you suggesting that Man is doing that? From what i have understood

> about his opinion is that in his experience the channels do not exist. He does

> not have any research, or neither does he comment on others work or

> research. Is this correct? I only remember skimming his book many years ago.

Alon

 

I am not only suggesting that channels DO exist I am saying it loud and

clear. Richard

 

>

> It could also very easily be said and verified that even though some (no one

>

> in particular) who have practiced acupuncture for many years.....still do

> not

> know very much about what they do. Richard

 

 

> >>>>>While this is probably true in any field, are you the one to decide

> who knows anything?

> Alon

 

NO. And neither YOU nor Mann are to decide what I or anyone else knows or has

experienced.

That's the POINT.

Richard

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hello Anand I second it )

 

By the way I wonder what Van Nghi would say about

Felix Man's cooments " acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion " " ???? ))

Vanessa

>>

 

 

--- anand bapat <acubapat wrote:

> hi,

> i think felix mann must be crazy to write something

> so

> stupid as that.

> he has been treating pts & getting results. is he

> trying to say that he was treating silly points in

> an

> organised manner & getting results like some

> magician

> which could be reproducible & taught to people like

> he

> did.

> so something is drastically wrong.

> besides there are lots of things we do not see. we

> believe there are galaxies around the universe but

> we

> have never seen them,we know love exists but we

> cannot

> see it. we can only see its effect. same goes with

> anger, breath, sensation, hearing. does it all mean

> that it does not exist. till the sound was picked up

> as a wave it was still sound & people accepted it as

> sound. they did not say it doid not exist. same is

> with acup. till the tools are developed to be able

> to

> locate, identify, quantify acup points & meridians,

> we

> will be at aloss.

> but surely felix mann should know all this.

> maybe senility gets the better of us all

> anand

>

>

>

> --- acudoc11 wrote: > It was extremely

> surprising for Mann to make such

> > statements when in fact

> > channels/meridians exist.

> >

> > Richard

> >

> > > Felix Mann's latest book Reiventing Acupuncture.

> > >

> > > He wrote many books on the subject and now I

> guess

> > he just woke up to

> > > reality.

> > >

> > > He " offers a new spin on the topic,proposing

> that

> > acupuncture

> > > points,meridians, and the laws of acupuncture

> are

> > largely an ilusion. " "

> > >

> > > My points is:

> > >

> > > SHould we question his authority in this

> so-called

> > discover?

> > >

> > > Or from the fear to take side in any CM matter ,

> > just go along with anyone

> > > ideas, interviews, books etc..., taking in

> > consideration we can't see the

> > > meridians or points.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I am not in favor of politics in medicine but

> for

> > some reason is a battle up

> > > hill, I guess is human nature or monkey ( I am

> not

> > sure who came first )

> > >

> > > Vanessa

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

> =====

> Anand Bapat

> Pain Management Specialist

> Sports Injury Specialist

> Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

> 0402 472 897

>

>

>

>

>

______________________

> Want to chat instantly with your online friends?

> Get the FREE

> Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is very easy to state acupuncture as an ilusion, to

be mainly a neurological/ chemical process behind

acupuncture etc.... , but when you bring into the room

masters, professors, great doctors or Van Nghi, than

we can really see the size of the person and their

statements concerning real undrstanding /realization

within their own statements.

 

Vanessa

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Fernando

 

I do not doubt what you say and am not in disagreement.

 

Everything is relative or not depending on which place of perspective one

wishes to come from.

 

One place does not negate another and yet we need to be aware if our

relativity is more or less limited. We should all remember the great Eastern

story

(maybe from Rumi) of the four blind men touching different parts of the elephant

and each one swore they KNEW exactly what the elephant was like.....while each

one was extremely limited in their perception and not correct because they

were not coming from a wholistic perception.

 

We must agree to identify where we are relating/coming from so others can

know whether we are more or less limited in what we wish to say.

 

Although certainly not separate.....as seen from the Ayurvedic tradition and

writings (but not exclusive to) there are no less than seven so-to-speak

bodies from Anandamayakosha to Pranamayakosha. When someone like Mann begins to

speak from a spiritual level (assuming that that's what he is doing) then it

must

so be stated clearly so as not to confuse others thinking that he is

wacked-out. We can get squirrley here by asking one to prove that we even really

exist

forget about channels existing or if acupuncture exists. Some of us at times

are trying to deal in the physical world with the biased nature of WM versus

CM.

 

As has easily been compared ---- are there really 14 channels, 8 extra etc

etc or is there only one channel? Is there a separate Spleen channel from the

Lung channel? Or is TaiYin totally from head to foot just ONE channel? Is there

anything such thing as a channel? The purported answers to these on some level

are only explanable to a small degree with relativity to some agreed starting

point for that particular discussion. We all know the sort of original school

discussions that the front of the body is Yin but only when we are comparing

the front to the back.....yet the top half is considered yang when we are

comparing upper to lower. Relativity is the order of the day.

 

To me we at least some of us were speaking to the concrete effects and

benefits of CM and on that basis.....I speak to hard physical evidence in the

sense

of the physical body and not in the sense of the more etheric....all the way

to spiritual. I am not denying the others exist. On this physical body

level.....channels actually exist and they don't just contain qi. They are so

real

that you can feel them in a gross obvious way....yet like an optical illusion,

if

we are thinking they are so esoteric and etheric...we will pass right by

them.

 

I respect your comment about Mann shaking standard doctrines and to pay

attention but we do not know where he is coming from and should reserve final

opinion.

 

I am also shaking standard doctrines but from another perspective. A

perspective that all too many practitioners have no idea exists. Find that which

exists and then choose where you wish to sit. One is no more right than the

other.

 

Regards,

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

> Dear Richard,

>

> Interesting comment you make. I must confess here that the longer I

> practice acupuncture/CM the less I know about what I do. I find

> myself less able to explain the mechanisms through which this ancient

> system of healing operates. Funny, at one time I thought I knew. We

> talked about neural pathways, hormonal interactions, dermatomes, and

> ah, yes, the flow of qi through the " channels " .

>

> After talking with an old friend of mine from the islands who

> practices a form of medicine known as Santeria, I started feeling

> that all these " mechanisms " were nothing but a mirage, an illusion;

> nothing more than our human/intellectual attempts to explain what we

> really do not understand, the complexities of the human body and the

> art of medicine. Like Voltaire's need to invent a God, if one did not

> exist, we've invented theories, philosophical constructs,

> and " illusions " in an effort to appease our confusion.

>

> Today, all I know is that the human body wants to gravitate towards

> healing and that my participation in this process is to facilitate an

> environment through which my patients, and myself, can come close to

> that goal.

>

> This may not take us far with the established medical entities, but I

> really hope we never figure out this idea of channels. Afterall, once

> we do, new illusions will emerge and new debates will arise.

>

> So when old-timers like Mann, make statements about acupuncture that

> shake standard doctrines, I pay attention.

>

> Regards,

>

> ~Fernando

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is very easy to state acupuncture as an ilusion, to

be mainly a neurological/ chemical process behind

acupuncture etc.... , but when you bring into the room

masters, professors, great doctors or Van Nghi, than

we can really see the size of the person and their

statements concerning real undrstanding /realization

within their own statements.

 

>>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man has no depth in his understanding of

acup. You may not like his views, you may argue his rational, but you can not

say he does not know the field. Considering that RCTs on acupuncture are about

50/50 ie a coin toss, our minds need to stay open to any argument or

development.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

A general attitude which time and again continues to appear........that some

individuals always seem to want to limit others to only their beliefs but seem

not to want to allow others to have the freedom to their own beliefs which

not only may be as valid....may be even more encompassing.

>>>Are you suggesting that Man is doing that? From what i have understood about

his opinion is that in his experience the channels do not exist. He does not

have any research, or neither does he comment on others work or research. Is

this correct? I only remember skimming his book many years ago

 

It could also very easily be said and verified that even though some (no one

in particular) who have practiced acupuncture for many years.....still do not

know very much about what they do.

>>>>>While this is probably true in any field, are you the one to decide who

knows anything?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , acudoc11@a...

wrote:

> It could also very easily be said and verified that even though

some (no one

> in particular) who have practiced acupuncture for many

years.....still do not

> know very much about what they do.

 

 

 

Dear Richard,

 

Interesting comment you make. I must confess here that the longer I

practice acupuncture/CM the less I know about what I do. I find

myself less able to explain the mechanisms through which this ancient

system of healing operates. Funny, at one time I thought I knew. We

talked about neural pathways, hormonal interactions, dermatomes, and

ah, yes, the flow of qi through the " channels " .

 

After talking with an old friend of mine from the islands who

practices a form of medicine known as Santeria, I started feeling

that all these " mechanisms " were nothing but a mirage, an illusion;

nothing more than our human/intellectual attempts to explain what we

really do not understand, the complexities of the human body and the

art of medicine. Like Voltaire's need to invent a God, if one did not

exist, we've invented theories, philosophical constructs,

and " illusions " in an effort to appease our confusion.

 

Today, all I know is that the human body wants to gravitate towards

healing and that my participation in this process is to facilitate an

environment through which my patients, and myself, can come close to

that goal.

 

This may not take us far with the established medical entities, but I

really hope we never figure out this idea of channels. Afterall, once

we do, new illusions will emerge and new debates will arise.

 

So when old-timers like Mann, make statements about acupuncture that

shake standard doctrines, I pay attention.

 

Regards,

 

~Fernando

[Guest guest]

Hello Fernando, with no offense what is wrong with

figuring or understanding the channels and their

theories?

 

If was not possible, great teachers would not write

or talk about them.

 

 

I was very lucky to have a tibetan teacher and in one

of my learning experiences I came to realize a deeper

understanding of channels ( to say the least).

 

I hope we all can came closer to the deeper

understanding and realizations of the underlying

process in TCM.

Vanessa

 

>

> This may not take us far with the established

> medical entities, but I

> really hope we never figure out this idea of

> channels. Afterall, once

> we do, new illusions will emerge and new debates

> will arise.

>

> So when old-timers like Mann, make statements about

> acupuncture that

> shake standard doctrines, I pay attention.

>

> Regards,

>

> ~Fernando

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Venessa,

 

 

You wrote:

> Hello Fernando, with no offense what is wrong with

> figuring or understanding the channels and their

> theories?

 

There's nothing wrong with figuring or understanding channels, If one

is so inclined to invest the time.

 

> If was not possible, great teachers would not write

> or talk about them.

 

True. I'm curious, what will the write about once the existence of

channels can be proven?

 

> I was very lucky to have a tibetan teacher and in one

> of my learning experiences I came to realize a deeper

> understanding of channels ( to say the least).

 

I'm sincerely happy for you and hope you will consider sharing some

of this understanding with us.

 

>

> I hope we all can came closer to the deeper

> understanding and realizations of the underlying

> process in TCM.

 

I hope so too.

 

Regards,

 

~Fernando

 

 

> Vanessa

[Guest guest]

Hello Richardddddddddd you lost some points in your

bank of diplomacy . Remember?

Amen for the statement anywayssssssssss

vanessa

 

 

>

> I am not only suggesting that channels DO exist I am

> saying it loud and

> clear. Richard

>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I find it hard to believe that the TCM system is open

choice to coin tossing and open mind to the point that

we can use our loose imagination to figure things out,

no wonder we are all lost.

I think we need to get closer to the ones that really

knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of their

understanding, teachings and pratice.

They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and if we

want to enter this understanding we need to follow

their footsteeps.

Can we agree to this or to assume following their

foosteeps would be a sign of not so open mind??

Vanessa

 

<Alon Wrote :

>

> >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man has no

> depth in his understanding of acup. You may not like

> his views, you may argue his rational, but you can

> not say he does not know the field. Considering that

> RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a coin toss,

> our minds need to stay open to any argument or

> development.

> Alon

>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Vanessa,

I think one of the points is, is that there is no absolute system of acupuncture

to be defined, learnt and taught.

 

I am going a bit esoteric here, okay..? I suspect that we give meaning and

relationships to events on a time line and we call these things in relationship

to each other cause and effect. From here we develop theories and concepts and

precepts, etc and gather evidence to prove the 'rule'.

 

I suspect if enough of us accept these relationships of cause and effect, or one

holds it so strongly, it becomes a shared reality that manifests in physical

terms and that is then able to be observed by others as 'real'. Maybe this is

just part of the evolution of matter and spirit.

 

Those that share the same sense of 'reality' form groups and clubs and

associations etc and like to defend their position and conquer the minds of

others, I guess that might bring more mental 'something' to the reality and hold

it as more and more 'a fact of life'.

 

Bruce Lee, the martial artist, said something about each one of us finding our

own form of the martial art and not necessarily following older more traditional

forms. I think this is like our ap. It is good to walk in the footsteps of the

'masters', but and this is my reality but, and no one else's, I agree with what

I thought Bruce Lee to mean, and that is to find one's own footsteps. Or if you

like create one's own illusion of reality and create the 'rules' that govern

that reality.

 

Maybe its about learning to do just this rather than the reality one creates. IE

maybe it is the creative process itself that is the importance and not the

illusions we call reality and spend so much energy promoting or defending or

destroying another's 'reality'.

Yours somewhere out there in esoteric land...dash it I found the quick

sand....again....

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:13 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

 

 

I find it hard to believe that the TCM system is open

choice to coin tossing and open mind to the point that

we can use our loose imagination to figure things out,

no wonder we are all lost.

I think we need to get closer to the ones that really

knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of their

understanding, teachings and pratice.

They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and if we

want to enter this understanding we need to follow

their footsteeps.

Can we agree to this or to assume following their

foosteeps would be a sign of not so open mind??

Vanessa

 

<Alon Wrote :

>

> >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man has no

> depth in his understanding of acup. You may not like

> his views, you may argue his rational, but you can

> not say he does not know the field. Considering that

> RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a coin toss,

> our minds need to stay open to any argument or

> development.

> Alon

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Sharon, we need to understand that Bruce Lee was

a teacher and he himself was teaching his own style.

You don't see in his classes the students doing

whatever they came to mind. They was following his

style and when students got away from the essence he

himslef corret them up.

Many of the great teachers states that we need to find

our own understanding and realize the teaching on our

own, but that doesn't mean just do whatever you

imagine or whatever comes to your mind. If that was

true we didn't need them, we just neede to create our

own styles and theories, principles etc....

If that was the case they would not teach a style and

spend soo much time of their lifes teaching and

directing the students to that road.

There is nothing wrong in realizing on our own, and

that has to come , or we will never really enter the

teachings of this great teachers.

I had some great teachers and they told me: if you

don't realize this teachings on your own , than your

understanding will only be technical and superficial.

Vanessa

 

>>

>

> Bruce Lee, the martial artist, said something about

> each one of us finding our own form of the martial

> art and not necessarily following older more

> traditional forms. I think this is like our ap. It

> is good to walk in the footsteps of the 'masters',

> but and this is my reality but, and no one else's, I

> agree with what I thought Bruce Lee to mean, and

> that is to find one's own footsteps. Or if you like

> create one's own illusion of reality and create the

> 'rules' that govern that reality.

>

> Maybe its about learning to do just this rather than

> the reality one creates. IE maybe it is the creative

> process itself that is the importance and not the

> illusions we call reality and spend so much energy

> promoting or defending or destroying another's

> 'reality'.

> Yours somewhere out there in esoteric land...dash it

> I found the quick sand....again....

> Sharon

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:13 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

>

>

> I find it hard to believe that the TCM system is

> open

> choice to coin tossing and open mind to the point

> that

> we can use our loose imagination to figure things

> out,

> no wonder we are all lost.

> I think we need to get closer to the ones that

> really

> knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of

> their

> understanding, teachings and pratice.

> They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and if

> we

> want to enter this understanding we need to follow

> their footsteeps.

> Can we agree to this or to assume following their

> foosteeps would be a sign of not so open mind??

> Vanessa

>

> <Alon Wrote :

> >

> > >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man has

> no

> > depth in his understanding of acup. You may not

> like

> > his views, you may argue his rational, but you

> can

> > not say he does not know the field. Considering

> that

> > RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a coin

> toss,

> > our minds need to stay open to any argument or

> > development.

> > Alon

> >

>

>

>

> SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> design software

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon, Vanessa and Fernando,

 

Sharon, your post resonates with the work familiar to me of those in the arts.

We emulate master artists until we have the courage and skill to take flight on

our own. Then we must create our own styles ... whether it be poetry, painting,

or medical arts. You can only do so much utilizing someone else's style. Thank

you for this more mature presentation of personal style. Of course, there is

always a fine balance between what is technically excellent practice and what is

talent expressed through style. Vanessa's point is well taken that we can learn

and be inspired by the masters.

 

As always, Fernando, your humility belies what I believe to be great wisdom on

your part. I sense you have crossed many horizons with your clinical practice

.... enough perhaps not to imagine that " intention " alone is doing the healing.

Perhaps the practitioner (or the teacher) has merely a role in activating the

healing process (or growing process) that is already resident in the client.

 

In gratitude,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, September 13, 2003 8:40 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

 

 

Vanessa,

I think one of the points is, is that there is no absolute system of

acupuncture to be defined, learnt and taught.

 

I am going a bit esoteric here, okay..? I suspect that we give meaning and

relationships to events on a time line and we call these things in relationship

to each other cause and effect. From here we develop theories and concepts and

precepts, etc and gather evidence to prove the 'rule'.

 

I suspect if enough of us accept these relationships of cause and effect, or

one holds it so strongly, it becomes a shared reality that manifests in physical

terms and that is then able to be observed by others as 'real'. Maybe this is

just part of the evolution of matter and spirit.

 

Those that share the same sense of 'reality' form groups and clubs and

associations etc and like to defend their position and conquer the minds of

others, I guess that might bring more mental 'something' to the reality and hold

it as more and more 'a fact of life'.

 

Bruce Lee, the martial artist, said something about each one of us finding our

own form of the martial art and not necessarily following older more traditional

forms. I think this is like our ap. It is good to walk in the footsteps of the

'masters', but and this is my reality but, and no one else's, I agree with what

I thought Bruce Lee to mean, and that is to find one's own footsteps. Or if you

like create one's own illusion of reality and create the 'rules' that govern

that reality.

 

Maybe its about learning to do just this rather than the reality one creates.

IE maybe it is the creative process itself that is the importance and not the

illusions we call reality and spend so much energy promoting or defending or

destroying another's 'reality'.

Yours somewhere out there in esoteric land...dash it I found the quick

sand....again....

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:13 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely

an ilusion

 

 

I find it hard to believe that the TCM system is open

choice to coin tossing and open mind to the point that

we can use our loose imagination to figure things out,

no wonder we are all lost.

I think we need to get closer to the ones that really

knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of their

understanding, teachings and pratice.

They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and if we

want to enter this understanding we need to follow

their footsteeps.

Can we agree to this or to assume following their

foosteeps would be a sign of not so open mind??

Vanessa

 

<Alon Wrote :

>

> >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man has no

> depth in his understanding of acup. You may not like

> his views, you may argue his rational, but you can

> not say he does not know the field. Considering that

> RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a coin toss,

> our minds need to stay open to any argument or

> development.

> Alon

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Vanessa,

Why not do what ever. I mean if it ends up being clinically effective?!? I

suspect many of us don't hold enough focus of spirit or mind to do this easily.

 

That's right though, we just need to create our own styles theories etc, yet

perhaps we need another's reality to start us off, however, unfortunately,

perhaps we take their system as real and forgot why we started in their

footsteps.

 

Or perhaps we believe there can be only one truth and can't handle

contradictions where the opposite works just as well as the 'rule', so we have

to find a system that agrees with our experience of reality and stick to it like

glue... hoping that no one changes the rules, or else we will be sunk.

 

I supose some masters teach their style because some one said, " Hey I like that,

will you teach me? " And so begins the a reality going from inside one person

across to another with the use of language to explain the 'why's and

wherefore's'. A new system is now birthed.

 

I think maybe this is what the term Maya, or illusion might be eluding to, and

we might get caught up in the illusion, heck we invest alot of time and

resources into our perception of reality; we practice it over and over and over

again. We think of it as real, when it is just one 'real' from many 'real' we

could choose from or if we are up to it, we could actually create our own

'real'.

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:51 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

 

 

Hello Sharon, we need to understand that Bruce Lee was

a teacher and he himself was teaching his own style.

You don't see in his classes the students doing

whatever they came to mind. They was following his

style and when students got away from the essence he

himslef corret them up.

Many of the great teachers states that we need to find

our own understanding and realize the teaching on our

own, but that doesn't mean just do whatever you

imagine or whatever comes to your mind. If that was

true we didn't need them, we just neede to create our

own styles and theories, principles etc....

If that was the case they would not teach a style and

spend soo much time of their lifes teaching and

directing the students to that road.

There is nothing wrong in realizing on our own, and

that has to come , or we will never really enter the

teachings of this great teachers.

I had some great teachers and they told me: if you

don't realize this teachings on your own , than your

understanding will only be technical and superficial.

Vanessa

 

>>

>

> Bruce Lee, the martial artist, said something about

> each one of us finding our own form of the martial

> art and not necessarily following older more

> traditional forms. I think this is like our ap. It

> is good to walk in the footsteps of the 'masters',

> but and this is my reality but, and no one else's, I

> agree with what I thought Bruce Lee to mean, and

> that is to find one's own footsteps. Or if you like

> create one's own illusion of reality and create the

> 'rules' that govern that reality.

>

> Maybe its about learning to do just this rather than

> the reality one creates. IE maybe it is the creative

> process itself that is the importance and not the

> illusions we call reality and spend so much energy

> promoting or defending or destroying another's

> 'reality'.

> Yours somewhere out there in esoteric land...dash it

> I found the quick sand....again....

> Sharon

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:13 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

>

>

> I find it hard to believe that the TCM system is

> open

> choice to coin tossing and open mind to the point

> that

> we can use our loose imagination to figure things

> out,

> no wonder we are all lost.

> I think we need to get closer to the ones that

> really

> knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of

> their

> understanding, teachings and pratice.

> They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and if

> we

> want to enter this understanding we need to follow

> their footsteeps.

> Can we agree to this or to assume following their

> foosteeps would be a sign of not so open mind??

> Vanessa

>

> <Alon Wrote :

> >

> > >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man has

> no

> > depth in his understanding of acup. You may not

> like

> > his views, you may argue his rational, but you

> can

> > not say he does not know the field. Considering

> that

> > RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a coin

> toss,

> > our minds need to stay open to any argument or

> > development.

> > Alon

> >

>

>

>

> SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> design software

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Emmanuel,

I would like to be more inclusive and see each person's style as valid and push

my own less. I think I push mine with the vain belief and self justification

that I am widening another's perspective, when in essence I am trying to

stabilise my own... I suspect this to be so.

 

I suspect that we push what we believe in so as to stabilise our own minds. For

I suspect it takes a great mind to be stable and at the same moment allow many

realities to exist concurrently, without being washed away into some sea of

oblivion or non-existence.

 

Fear of annihilation may be a grand motivator for forming and making personal

and cultural belief systems.

 

Regards

Sharon

-

Emmanuel Segmen

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:57 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an

ilusion

 

 

Sharon, Vanessa and Fernando,

 

Sharon, your post resonates with the work familiar to me of those in the arts.

We emulate master artists until we have the courage and skill to take flight on

our own. Then we must create our own styles ... whether it be poetry, painting,

or medical arts. You can only do so much utilizing someone else's style. Thank

you for this more mature presentation of personal style. Of course, there is

always a fine balance between what is technically excellent practice and what is

talent expressed through style. Vanessa's point is well taken that we can learn

and be inspired by the masters.

 

As always, Fernando, your humility belies what I believe to be great wisdom on

your part. I sense you have crossed many horizons with your clinical practice

.... enough perhaps not to imagine that " intention " alone is doing the healing.

Perhaps the practitioner (or the teacher) has merely a role in activating the

healing process (or growing process) that is already resident in the client.

 

In gratitude,

Emmanuel Segmen

-

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, September 13, 2003 8:40 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely

an ilusion

 

 

Vanessa,

I think one of the points is, is that there is no absolute system of

acupuncture to be defined, learnt and taught.

 

I am going a bit esoteric here, okay..? I suspect that we give meaning and

relationships to events on a time line and we call these things in relationship

to each other cause and effect. From here we develop theories and concepts and

precepts, etc and gather evidence to prove the 'rule'.

 

I suspect if enough of us accept these relationships of cause and effect, or

one holds it so strongly, it becomes a shared reality that manifests in physical

terms and that is then able to be observed by others as 'real'. Maybe this is

just part of the evolution of matter and spirit.

 

Those that share the same sense of 'reality' form groups and clubs and

associations etc and like to defend their position and conquer the minds of

others, I guess that might bring more mental 'something' to the reality and hold

it as more and more 'a fact of life'.

 

Bruce Lee, the martial artist, said something about each one of us finding

our own form of the martial art and not necessarily following older more

traditional forms. I think this is like our ap. It is good to walk in the

footsteps of the 'masters', but and this is my reality but, and no one else's, I

agree with what I thought Bruce Lee to mean, and that is to find one's own

footsteps. Or if you like create one's own illusion of reality and create the

'rules' that govern that reality.

 

Maybe its about learning to do just this rather than the reality one

creates. IE maybe it is the creative process itself that is the importance and

not the illusions we call reality and spend so much energy promoting or

defending or destroying another's 'reality'.

Yours somewhere out there in esoteric land...dash it I found the quick

sand....again....

Sharon

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:13 PM

Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be

largely an ilusion

 

 

I find it hard to believe that the TCM system is open

choice to coin tossing and open mind to the point that

we can use our loose imagination to figure things out,

no wonder we are all lost.

I think we need to get closer to the ones that really

knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of their

understanding, teachings and pratice.

They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and if we

want to enter this understanding we need to follow

their footsteeps.

Can we agree to this or to assume following their

foosteeps would be a sign of not so open mind??

Vanessa

 

<Alon Wrote :

>

> >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man has no

> depth in his understanding of acup. You may not like

> his views, you may argue his rational, but you can

> not say he does not know the field. Considering that

> RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a coin toss,

> our minds need to stay open to any argument or

> development.

> Alon

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

hi richard,

you seem to have an interesting way of putting things.

surely mann may have something in it. but he should

express it properly.

esoteric stuff also can be explained clearly & i do

agree that energy pathways can be influenced by the

remote & external without touch.

this is what the great masters - yogis of india &

shaolin masters & lamas became adept at. they were

able to influence the energies from afar if they so

desired.

all this can be looked at but not at the cost of

claiming or referring to acupuncture as an illusion.

its Ok for the mature amogst the TCM popn who can

understand some aspects of it. but the majority of

them will be confused. they will not be lost in the

science but will be confused enough to start talking

crap.

that will elad to MD taking up the cudgel against TCM.

so such literature should be published clearly.

acupuncture has energy. it may not be visible but like

so many things before us - bacteria, viruses, etc

which were invisible are now acceptable. so will be

with acup.

i wonder whether this will assist in claaaring the air

a bit.

all readers of the mann book please be cautious &

digest it thoroughly before you comment on it & apply

it - LITERALLY.

anand

 

 

 

--- acudoc11 wrote: > Fernando

>

> I do not doubt what you say and am not in

> disagreement.

>

> Everything is relative or not depending on which

> place of perspective one

> wishes to come from.

>

> One place does not negate another and yet we need to

> be aware if our

> relativity is more or less limited. We should all

> remember the great Eastern story

> (maybe from Rumi) of the four blind men touching

> different parts of the elephant

> and each one swore they KNEW exactly what the

> elephant was like.....while each

> one was extremely limited in their perception and

> not correct because they

> were not coming from a wholistic perception.

>

> We must agree to identify where we are

> relating/coming from so others can

> know whether we are more or less limited in what we

> wish to say.

>

> Although certainly not separate.....as seen from the

> Ayurvedic tradition and

> writings (but not exclusive to) there are no less

> than seven so-to-speak

> bodies from Anandamayakosha to Pranamayakosha. When

> someone like Mann begins to

> speak from a spiritual level (assuming that that's

> what he is doing) then it must

> so be stated clearly so as not to confuse others

> thinking that he is

> wacked-out. We can get squirrley here by asking one

> to prove that we even really exist

> forget about channels existing or if acupuncture

> exists. Some of us at times

> are trying to deal in the physical world with the

> biased nature of WM versus

> CM.

>

> As has easily been compared ---- are there really 14

> channels, 8 extra etc

> etc or is there only one channel? Is there a

> separate Spleen channel from the

> Lung channel? Or is TaiYin totally from head to foot

> just ONE channel? Is there

> anything such thing as a channel? The purported

> answers to these on some level

> are only explanable to a small degree with

> relativity to some agreed starting

> point for that particular discussion. We all know

> the sort of original school

> discussions that the front of the body is Yin but

> only when we are comparing

> the front to the back.....yet the top half is

> considered yang when we are

> comparing upper to lower. Relativity is the order of

> the day.

>

> To me we at least some of us were speaking to the

> concrete effects and

> benefits of CM and on that basis.....I speak to hard

> physical evidence in the sense

> of the physical body and not in the sense of the

> more etheric....all the way

> to spiritual. I am not denying the others exist. On

> this physical body

> level.....channels actually exist and they don't

> just contain qi. They are so real

> that you can feel them in a gross obvious way....yet

> like an optical illusion, if

> we are thinking they are so esoteric and

> etheric...we will pass right by

> them.

>

> I respect your comment about Mann shaking standard

> doctrines and to pay

> attention but we do not know where he is coming

> from and should reserve final

> opinion.

>

> I am also shaking standard doctrines but from

> another perspective. A

> perspective that all too many practitioners have no

> idea exists. Find that which

> exists and then choose where you wish to sit. One is

> no more right than the other.

>

> Regards,

> Richard

>

>

>

>

>

> > Dear Richard,

> >

> > Interesting comment you make. I must confess here

> that the longer I

> > practice acupuncture/CM the less I know about what

> I do. I find

> > myself less able to explain the mechanisms through

> which this ancient

> > system of healing operates. Funny, at one time I

> thought I knew. We

> > talked about neural pathways, hormonal

> interactions, dermatomes, and

> > ah, yes, the flow of qi through the " channels " .

> >

> > After talking with an old friend of mine from the

> islands who

> > practices a form of medicine known as Santeria, I

> started feeling

> > that all these " mechanisms " were nothing but a

> mirage, an illusion;

> > nothing more than our human/intellectual attempts

> to explain what we

> > really do not understand, the complexities of the

> human body and the

> > art of medicine. Like Voltaire's need to invent a

> God, if one did not

> > exist, we've invented theories, philosophical

> constructs,

> > and " illusions " in an effort to appease our

> confusion.

> >

> > Today, all I know is that the human body wants to

> gravitate towards

> > healing and that my participation in this process

> is to facilitate an

> > environment through which my patients, and myself,

> can come close to

> > that goal.

> >

> > This may not take us far with the established

> medical entities, but I

> > really hope we never figure out this idea of

> channels. Afterall, once

> > we do, new illusions will emerge and new debates

> will arise.

> >

> > So when old-timers like Mann, make statements

> about acupuncture that

> > shake standard doctrines, I pay attention.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > ~Fernando

> >

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

______________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

hi sharon,

there is really only the truth in life.

but as you hav rightly mentioned we all see part of

the truth & believe that to be the REAL TRUTH. then we

follow it all along blindly till we find something

further along which convinces us that the new finding

is the real truth. we are such a hasty society that we

ruush headlomng into everything & then find out that

the truth was elusive.

we will get to the truth one day.

till then we have to keep going the way we are &

manage.

living in this world of part truths to seek the real

truth.

anand

 

 

 

 

--- <>

wrote: > Hi Vanessa,

> Why not do what ever. I mean if it ends up being

> clinically effective?!? I suspect many of us don't

> hold enough focus of spirit or mind to do this

> easily.

>

> That's right though, we just need to create our own

> styles theories etc, yet perhaps we need another's

> reality to start us off, however, unfortunately,

> perhaps we take their system as real and forgot why

> we started in their footsteps.

>

> Or perhaps we believe there can be only one truth

> and can't handle contradictions where the opposite

> works just as well as the 'rule', so we have to find

> a system that agrees with our experience of reality

> and stick to it like glue... hoping that no one

> changes the rules, or else we will be sunk.

>

> I supose some masters teach their style because some

> one said, " Hey I like that, will you teach me? " And

> so begins the a reality going from inside one person

> across to another with the use of language to

> explain the 'why's and wherefore's'. A new system

> is now birthed.

>

> I think maybe this is what the term Maya, or

> illusion might be eluding to, and we might get

> caught up in the illusion, heck we invest alot of

> time and resources into our perception of reality;

> we practice it over and over and over again. We

> think of it as real, when it is just one 'real' from

> many 'real' we could choose from or if we are up to

> it, we could actually create our own 'real'.

> Sharon

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:51 PM

> Re: Felix man's latest book states

> acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

>

>

> Hello Sharon, we need to understand that Bruce Lee

> was

> a teacher and he himself was teaching his own

> style.

> You don't see in his classes the students doing

> whatever they came to mind. They was following his

> style and when students got away from the essence

> he

> himslef corret them up.

> Many of the great teachers states that we need to

> find

> our own understanding and realize the teaching on

> our

> own, but that doesn't mean just do whatever you

> imagine or whatever comes to your mind. If that

> was

> true we didn't need them, we just neede to create

> our

> own styles and theories, principles etc....

> If that was the case they would not teach a style

> and

> spend soo much time of their lifes teaching and

> directing the students to that road.

> There is nothing wrong in realizing on our own,

> and

> that has to come , or we will never really enter

> the

> teachings of this great teachers.

> I had some great teachers and they told me: if you

> don't realize this teachings on your own , than

> your

> understanding will only be technical and

> superficial.

> Vanessa

>

> >>

> >

> > Bruce Lee, the martial artist, said something

> about

> > each one of us finding our own form of the

> martial

> > art and not necessarily following older more

> > traditional forms. I think this is like our ap.

> It

> > is good to walk in the footsteps of the

> 'masters',

> > but and this is my reality but, and no one

> else's, I

> > agree with what I thought Bruce Lee to mean, and

> > that is to find one's own footsteps. Or if you

> like

> > create one's own illusion of reality and create

> the

> > 'rules' that govern that reality.

> >

> > Maybe its about learning to do just this rather

> than

> > the reality one creates. IE maybe it is the

> creative

> > process itself that is the importance and not

> the

> > illusions we call reality and spend so much

> energy

> > promoting or defending or destroying another's

> > 'reality'.

> > Yours somewhere out there in esoteric

> land...dash it

> > I found the quick sand....again....

> > Sharon

> > -

> >

> > To:

> Chinese Medicine

> > Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:13 PM

> > Re: Felix man's latest book

> states

> > acupuncture to be largely an ilusion

> >

> >

> > I find it hard to believe that the TCM system

> is

> > open

> > choice to coin tossing and open mind to the

> point

> > that

> > we can use our loose imagination to figure

> things

> > out,

> > no wonder we are all lost.

> > I think we need to get closer to the ones that

> > really

> > knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of

> > their

> > understanding, teachings and pratice.

> > They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and

> if

> > we

> > want to enter this understanding we need to

> follow

> > their footsteeps.

> > Can we agree to this or to assume following

> their

> > foosteeps would be a sign of not so open

> mind??

> > Vanessa

> >

> > <Alon Wrote :

> > >

> > > >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man

> has

> > no

> > > depth in his understanding of acup. You may

> not

> > like

> > > his views, you may argue his rational, but

> you

> > can

> > > not say he does not know the field.

> Considering

> > that

> > > RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a

> coin

> > toss,

> > > our minds need to stay open to any argument

> or

> > > development.

> > > Alon

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web

> site

> > design software

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

richard youa re so right.

we have asaying in india which goes on translation-

respect grey hair, they have more years behind them &

have seen more seasons. so respect what they say as

they know more & are more learned.

that is very true only if the person concerned has

used their time understanding life, reasoning, ways of

the world & is able to communicate them appropriately.

i followed this blindly till sometime ago when i

relaised that peoiple who have not had the experience,

virtue to observe, change & learn from all these

exposures are as good as no good.

so total agreement that people may have been

practising for along time but they may not have learnt

anything during this time.

its adistinct possibility.

what do others feel.

anand

 

 

 

--- " fernando b. " <fbernall

wrote: > --- In

Chinese Medicine ,

> acudoc11@a...

> wrote:

> > It could also very easily be said and verified

> that even though

> some (no one

> > in particular) who have practiced acupuncture for

> many

> years.....still do not

> > know very much about what they do.

>

>

>

> Dear Richard,

>

> Interesting comment you make. I must confess here

> that the longer I

> practice acupuncture/CM the less I know about what I

> do. I find

> myself less able to explain the mechanisms through

> which this ancient

> system of healing operates. Funny, at one time I

> thought I knew. We

> talked about neural pathways, hormonal interactions,

> dermatomes, and

> ah, yes, the flow of qi through the " channels " .

>

> After talking with an old friend of mine from the

> islands who

> practices a form of medicine known as Santeria, I

> started feeling

> that all these " mechanisms " were nothing but a

> mirage, an illusion;

> nothing more than our human/intellectual attempts to

> explain what we

> really do not understand, the complexities of the

> human body and the

> art of medicine. Like Voltaire's need to invent a

> God, if one did not

> exist, we've invented theories, philosophical

> constructs,

> and " illusions " in an effort to appease our

> confusion.

>

> Today, all I know is that the human body wants to

> gravitate towards

> healing and that my participation in this process is

> to facilitate an

> environment through which my patients, and myself,

> can come close to

> that goal.

>

> This may not take us far with the established

> medical entities, but I

> really hope we never figure out this idea of

> channels. Afterall, once

> we do, new illusions will emerge and new debates

> will arise.

>

> So when old-timers like Mann, make statements about

> acupuncture that

> shake standard doctrines, I pay attention.

>

> Regards,

>

> ~Fernando

>

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

______________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

--- <>

Sharon wrote:

> Hi Vanessa,

> Why not do what ever. I mean if it ends up being

> clinically effective?!? I suspect many of us don't

> hold enough focus of spirit or mind to do this

> easily.

 

 

 

That is the problem you get away from the teachings

from the real teachers ,bonafide ones, the ones that

really understand TCM and the theories behind it

and you get lost.

There is why many in our profession can't explain the

process behind this energetic world, they are in their

own playing teachers themselves without really

following a real teacher.

 

 

> I think maybe this is what the term Maya, or

> illusion might be eluding to, and we might get

> caught up in the illusion, heck we invest alot of

> time and resources into our perception of reality;

> we practice it over and over and over again. We

> think of it as real, when it is just one 'real' from

> many 'real' we could choose from or if we are up to

> it, we could actually create our own 'real'.

> Sharon

 

I am not sure what to say ) It is hard when we are

in the ilusion that everything is an ilusion and don't

know where reality starts.

There is ilusion, and reality.

I can see why some people are confused . We think we

don't need a teacher or to follow their footsteps.

that is why many in TCM groups don't bring the names

and great works of this amazing teachers , such as Van

Nghi and many others to the room.

Many feel offended or just can't handle having to

accept their teachings and their realization of the

TCM world that not many can see and we think is all an

ilusion.

 

My question is : Would you want to be treated or give

yourself to a practitioner that thinks is all an

ilusion and I really don't need to follow any teacher

or theories comming from them. I can create my own?

 

This groups is about TCM and many here accept very

easy the motion that the theories , processes within

TCM is all an ilusion, Placebos , neurological,

neurochemical etc...

That is because we don't really want to pay our dues

to the path that it takes to realize this energetic

system.

For the question: is TCM energetic world a reality ?,

just go infront of one of these great teachers such as

Van NGHI and his amazing results and you will figure

out , unless the pink elephant is so directly seated

on our eyes that we cannot even perceive their

realization .

 

Vanessa

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

How can we demonstrate any research or proof of the clinical aspect of TCM ,

when many support the idea it is all an ilusion, Placebo in almost all the

treatments(statement said in the other acupuncture group), is all neurochemical,

neurological?

 

How can we have any support from the literature brought down by the great

teachers, researches, doctors, master in the present and past within the TCM

realm , when we think we can do whatever and we will get there?

 

Did you ever heard that not all paths leads to the same place?

 

 

 

The idea freedom proposed in many of the comments in the group is so extreme ,

that ilusion is an accepted solid place to explain the mechanism behind this

thousand years old medicine based on the energetic field and promoted by many

great people /masters etc....

 

How can we stand the possible reality of this system, when we ourselves don't

have any solid ground to follow? It is all an ilusion , we can do whatever we

can recreate the system. Good luck .

 

TCM is not as many wants to propose an Abstract form of painting that has no

organization reality to it is just whatever you want to see or create of it,

all a intelectual game, your creation.

 

I am impressed after all the books, seminars, writings, courses, teachers,

about TCM we can still say is all an ilusion, Placebo effect to most of the

treatments, everything but what TCM has been essentially based on " energetic

system with it's theories, principles etc... "

 

I will become an officially perk in this room. I don't have the patience to

confince grown ups in this field of the reality within it.

 

If VAn Nghi and many others didn't got to your attention, how could I?

 

So I am all eyes for awhile :

 

Vanessa ))