Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Can you see the meridians or show to anyone .like in anatomy dissection or otherwise? So wake up. Invisible to the naked eye, but visible to ....... You figure out. Vanessa >> --- <> wrote: > An invisible world Vanessa, ....perhaps it is an > illusion. > Sharon > - > " " <vbirang > <Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:32 PM > Re: Felix man's latest book states > acupuncture to be largely > an ilusion > > > >> > > Sharon wrote it:. > > When we understand where in time and in what > historical context the > different theories where written we start to > recognise the systems of > associations we are using. These for me are some of > the connections to > philosophical roots which were severed according to > Unschuld as cited by > Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that > is was based on a > 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that > TCM was IT. Nothing else > was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful > discussions of qi and > yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to > learn a whole heap of zang > fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to > all that wonderful > Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was > rotate learning functions and > indications of acupoints. There was no room for > concepts such as too much > water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or > lack of fire to evaporate > the water. It was this point does that approach.>. > > Yes I can relate to it. > > I had many teachers but one tibetan one played a > strong role in my > understanding. > > He was very good practitioner with herbs and > acupuncture, I saw some > incredible cases where he just had major results in > minutes. > > Serious cases of pain and treatments was usually > 100% successful. > He use to tell me: " Not evertyhing question needs > an answer " > > > > He said many of this knowledge was here even before > the ones that wrote it > down. > > This is a living knowledge and has it's own > inteligence and control. You > can't get there intelectually,is by revelation. I > know is hard for many to > understand this statements but like I said it is an > invisible world ), > whatelse can I say? > > > > >>With the maturity that there is much more to > acupuncture than TCM school, > came the ability to adapt the practice to what I > find in clinic, rather than > chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas. > For instance finding > bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to > consider time based > treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to > the mornings? However, > if there is an absence of regular bowel movements, > then I may need to > consider other theoretical constructs in which to > make my associations in > order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel > movements as the > symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or > obstruction of qi. > > I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first > encounters with Japanese > acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating > chronic fatigue.... he > kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to > if someone asked me > this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to > treat diseases... now I > know I need to better understand how to assess and > influence the person > through their qi.>> > I agree with you and I appreciate your honesty in > this post. > > > >>If I were to see a wind cold attack that started > showing up patches of > purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be > thinking about Warm > disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital, > and not cold > penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun. > However, if I don't know > this history then I might think that all wind cold > should be treated with Lu > 7 and Co 4. >. > > It is very hard to know all, so than we have others > practicing where we > reffer for consultation and hopefully a brake in the > case. > > > > >>I may not realise that excess Lung conditions > arise from the Liver and I > may continue to try to tonify the already excess > Lung and ignore the > distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise > from, knowing which > style I am doing tells to those who understand > history, which schools I > follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately, > for many TCM means what > Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. >> > > The word monolithic singular truth gave a headache > temporal related ) to > high of a vocabulary for my needs ) > > > >> > I have only a splattering of understanding > acupuncture concepts within their > own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit > of knowledge has helped > me to understand and organise where I am treating > from. A frame of > reference. And like others have said, the more I > treat the less I am sure > of, however, I know at least a little bit about > where the ideas that > consciously inform me come from. > Sharon.. > > I feel the saem the more I am revelad of this > energetic world the more I can > see of It's infinite source of truth, > principles,theories and possibilities. > > Vanessa > > > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM > Re: Felix man's latest book states > acupuncture to be > largely an ilusion > > > >>Sharon wrote : > > > > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of > > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of > > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The > > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in > the > > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we > find > > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in > another > > to the element of Water. So which source do you > > mean going back to? Where do you place your > > authority? > > The authority goes to the essence " energetic > system " > In this energetic system there is a world within > with > many different principles, some use bleeding some > don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5 > elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points > only, > some don't, etc... for the different reasons that > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 You act like many in the western medical world, you can't see must be an illusion, or woo doo and not possible to be a science, can't touch or see it is not real. Vanessa >> --- <> wrote: > An invisible world Vanessa, ....perhaps it is an > illusion. > Sharon > - > " " <vbirang > <Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:32 PM > Re: Felix man's latest book states > acupuncture to be largely > an ilusion > > > >> > > Sharon wrote it:. > > When we understand where in time and in what > historical context the > different theories where written we start to > recognise the systems of > associations we are using. These for me are some of > the connections to > philosophical roots which were severed according to > Unschuld as cited by > Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that > is was based on a > 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that > TCM was IT. Nothing else > was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful > discussions of qi and > yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to > learn a whole heap of zang > fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to > all that wonderful > Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was > rotate learning functions and > indications of acupoints. There was no room for > concepts such as too much > water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or > lack of fire to evaporate > the water. It was this point does that approach.>. > > Yes I can relate to it. > > I had many teachers but one tibetan one played a > strong role in my > understanding. > > He was very good practitioner with herbs and > acupuncture, I saw some > incredible cases where he just had major results in > minutes. > > Serious cases of pain and treatments was usually > 100% successful. > He use to tell me: " Not evertyhing question needs > an answer " > > > > He said many of this knowledge was here even before > the ones that wrote it > down. > > This is a living knowledge and has it's own > inteligence and control. You > can't get there intelectually,is by revelation. I > know is hard for many to > understand this statements but like I said it is an > invisible world ), > whatelse can I say? > > > > >>With the maturity that there is much more to > acupuncture than TCM school, > came the ability to adapt the practice to what I > find in clinic, rather than > chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas. > For instance finding > bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to > consider time based > treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to > the mornings? However, > if there is an absence of regular bowel movements, > then I may need to > consider other theoretical constructs in which to > make my associations in > order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel > movements as the > symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or > obstruction of qi. > > I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first > encounters with Japanese > acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating > chronic fatigue.... he > kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to > if someone asked me > this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to > treat diseases... now I > know I need to better understand how to assess and > influence the person > through their qi.>> > I agree with you and I appreciate your honesty in > this post. > > > >>If I were to see a wind cold attack that started > showing up patches of > purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be > thinking about Warm > disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital, > and not cold > penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun. > However, if I don't know > this history then I might think that all wind cold > should be treated with Lu > 7 and Co 4. >. > > It is very hard to know all, so than we have others > practicing where we > reffer for consultation and hopefully a brake in the > case. > > > > >>I may not realise that excess Lung conditions > arise from the Liver and I > may continue to try to tonify the already excess > Lung and ignore the > distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise > from, knowing which > style I am doing tells to those who understand > history, which schools I > follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately, > for many TCM means what > Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. >> > > The word monolithic singular truth gave a headache > temporal related ) to > high of a vocabulary for my needs ) > > > >> > I have only a splattering of understanding > acupuncture concepts within their > own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit > of knowledge has helped > me to understand and organise where I am treating > from. A frame of > reference. And like others have said, the more I > treat the less I am sure > of, however, I know at least a little bit about > where the ideas that > consciously inform me come from. > Sharon.. > > I feel the saem the more I am revelad of this > energetic world the more I can > see of It's infinite source of truth, > principles,theories and possibilities. > > Vanessa > > > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM > Re: Felix man's latest book states > acupuncture to be > largely an ilusion > > > >>Sharon wrote : > > > > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of > > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of > > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The > > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in > the > > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we > find > > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in > another > > to the element of Water. So which source do you > > mean going back to? Where do you place your > > authority? > > The authority goes to the essence " energetic > system " > In this energetic system there is a world within > with > many different principles, some use bleeding some > don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5 > elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points > only, > some don't, etc... for the different reasons that > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Hi Jim, Quite correct Jim it is possible to use both approaches of qi circulation and organ qi quality in pulse interpretation; however, it is not a requirement. Perhaps one day I will be able to do both. I never felt very effective with zang fu pulse taking, yet I know others who can read them like a book. At the moment I am developing my pulse interpretation within a context of the keiraku chiryo (meridian) system, which is based on an interpretation of the Nan Jing. But please explain how you intergrate both basic approaches to pulse interpretation, that of the qi circulation and that of the organs, and how such a dynamic influences your treatment plans. So far I have found it is important to understand the information systems one is tapping into. Analogously, I don't have to read every newspaper to get the day's news. Yet it is good, I think, to know what systems one is listening in on. Take Manaka's work on abdominal diagnosis. I was fascinated by Manaka's very simple work on channels and abdominal diagnosis, where he found treating the source pt of a channel with a magnet changed the pressure pain palpable on a front mu point. Only thing was that he found that the mu point that related to the channel yuan source varied in some instances to those of the classics. For instance Kidney 3 reduced pressure pain not on GB25 but on Kid 16. Another he found was with pressure pain on St 25 better reflective of the triple burner, but not the CV5. He concluded, for that point in time, that whilst his differing mu points were reflective of the yuan source points of the channels, they may not be reflective of the organs. So it might be useful to know that Manaka was treating channels not organs in that aspect of his work. It might explain why there are so many abdominal diagnosis systems, they may indeed be looking at one aspect of person quite separately to another aspect of the energetic system. Thanks Sharon - James Ramholz Chinese Medicine Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:30 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion Chinese Medicine , Sharon wrote: > There are at least two ideas of taking pulses; of these one is that it is the qi circulation in the meridians that is being assessed. The other is that it is the qi in the organs that is being assessed. When I look to the pulse I am looking at qi circulation in the meridians, not the organs, how about you? >>> Sharon: These pulse perspectives should not be thought of as mutually exclusive. You should always use them both---after all, patients use both. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Vanessa, Thankful is something I understand towards teachers. Yet having to have faith in a teacher, sounds more and more like a religion. Maybe I missed your meaning here? Sharon - Chinese Medicine Tuesday, September 16, 2003 3:35 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion >Sharon wrote it: > > Finally why do you need faith in the teacher? What > happens when one doesn't have faith or loses one's > faith? > Sharon hello Sharon I am eternally thankfull to my teachers for the insight and the door openings that they taught me. I am thanfull for them to have accepted me as their student. I am not saying this as a cheap poetic statement, it is a reality experienced by many around the world. Many of us are affraid to have a teacher where you give your faith to it, Offcourse I am not talking of any teacher. If the teacher is real and he is within this understanding he can pass it to you. He can make it easier to enter the knowledge. There is an immense amount of people that have a great memory bank and they recite the TCM theories , old books statements, but in the end is just as blind as it can be. It is an invisible world( Energetic), so we need an special way to enter and way to stay there. I forgot to say that my tibetan teahcer was a master on gigong and many things that I saw or experience in that energetic system could not be appreciated by many, because our logical so-called intellectual mind is in the way and the experiences would only accepted as part of believe. But when you meet a good master in qigong you will know that he can enter a special dimension which TCM has many things in commom. So respect to a good teacher is important. It is amazing what a bonafide teacher can do for a good sincere by heart student. I saw many times. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Vanessa, I think you missed my pun! Sharon - Chinese Medicine Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:19 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion You act like many in the western medical world, you can't see must be an illusion, or woo doo and not possible to be a science, can't touch or see it is not real. Vanessa >> --- <> wrote: > An invisible world Vanessa, ....perhaps it is an > illusion. > Sharon > - > " " <vbirang > <Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:32 PM > Re: Felix man's latest book states > acupuncture to be largely > an ilusion > > > >> > > Sharon wrote it:. > > When we understand where in time and in what > historical context the > different theories where written we start to > recognise the systems of > associations we are using. These for me are some of > the connections to > philosophical roots which were severed according to > Unschuld as cited by > Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that > is was based on a > 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that > TCM was IT. Nothing else > was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful > discussions of qi and > yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to > learn a whole heap of zang > fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to > all that wonderful > Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was > rotate learning functions and > indications of acupoints. There was no room for > concepts such as too much > water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or > lack of fire to evaporate > the water. It was this point does that approach.>. > > Yes I can relate to it. > > I had many teachers but one tibetan one played a > strong role in my > understanding. > > He was very good practitioner with herbs and > acupuncture, I saw some > incredible cases where he just had major results in > minutes. > > Serious cases of pain and treatments was usually > 100% successful. > He use to tell me: " Not evertyhing question needs > an answer " > > > > He said many of this knowledge was here even before > the ones that wrote it > down. > > This is a living knowledge and has it's own > inteligence and control. You > can't get there intelectually,is by revelation. I > know is hard for many to > understand this statements but like I said it is an > invisible world ), > whatelse can I say? > > > > >>With the maturity that there is much more to > acupuncture than TCM school, > came the ability to adapt the practice to what I > find in clinic, rather than > chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas. > For instance finding > bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to > consider time based > treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to > the mornings? However, > if there is an absence of regular bowel movements, > then I may need to > consider other theoretical constructs in which to > make my associations in > order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel > movements as the > symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or > obstruction of qi. > > I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first > encounters with Japanese > acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating > chronic fatigue.... he > kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to > if someone asked me > this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to > treat diseases... now I > know I need to better understand how to assess and > influence the person > through their qi.>> > I agree with you and I appreciate your honesty in > this post. > > > >>If I were to see a wind cold attack that started > showing up patches of > purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be > thinking about Warm > disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital, > and not cold > penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun. > However, if I don't know > this history then I might think that all wind cold > should be treated with Lu > 7 and Co 4. >. > > It is very hard to know all, so than we have others > practicing where we > reffer for consultation and hopefully a brake in the > case. > > > > >>I may not realise that excess Lung conditions > arise from the Liver and I > may continue to try to tonify the already excess > Lung and ignore the > distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise > from, knowing which > style I am doing tells to those who understand > history, which schools I > follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately, > for many TCM means what > Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. >> > > The word monolithic singular truth gave a headache > temporal related ) to > high of a vocabulary for my needs ) > > > >> > I have only a splattering of understanding > acupuncture concepts within their > own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit > of knowledge has helped > me to understand and organise where I am treating > from. A frame of > reference. And like others have said, the more I > treat the less I am sure > of, however, I know at least a little bit about > where the ideas that > consciously inform me come from. > Sharon.. > > I feel the saem the more I am revelad of this > energetic world the more I can > see of It's infinite source of truth, > principles,theories and possibilities. > > Vanessa > > > > > - > > Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM > Re: Felix man's latest book states > acupuncture to be > largely an ilusion > > > >>Sharon wrote : > > > > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of > > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of > > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The > > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in > the > > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we > find > > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in > another > > to the element of Water. So which source do you > > mean going back to? Where do you place your > > authority? > > The authority goes to the essence " energetic > system " > In this energetic system there is a world within > with > many different principles, some use bleeding some > don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5 > elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points > only, > some don't, etc... for the different reasons that > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.