Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Hi Vanessa, I suspect many of us are more comfortable following in the steps of those who have gone before, rather than orgainising material into a new arrangement. Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon? Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was between isolated groups of monkeys. Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to wash the sweet potato with water before eating it. So perhaps one way it takes is serendipity with other people / events to reorganise information into a new or varied system. At the moment I spend some time with a kinesiologist, and that collaboration has brought newer ways, to me that is, of making treatment. His organisation of information is different to mine. And instead of going, " No in AP this means that! " , we went 'Oh, I wonder how that works, I wonder what ramifications that brings. Gee, what if I could do this in AP? " We are using the organized information from kinesiology in new ways to both approaches. " I accept treatment from someone I respect. Whether they use a formalised sytem or refine that one they studied or created their own, first I have to have respect for them. Sometimes I think I limit my treatment because the theory I might be using says " It has to be like this. " ie no cure; or first they must pray; or that they cannot heal for they had wm surgery and had the part removed; or that a scar is left and first it must be bridged. So as much as theories are useful they too set limitations. As far as paying dues, what people are callling TCM is it self an abridge version of what is a history of over 2,000 yrs of practice. What got put in? What got left out? What changed in the translation? And many practitioners don't want to go back and puzzle over the Han classics they are comfortable and do great work from the abridged TCM.... but hey lets be honesty enough to recognise that what passes for TCM is a reconstructed system and not some final word. Manaka wrote something like this; " If I made a treatment for x disease and wrote it down, would people in 100 years time say that this is the best treatment for x disease? " Shall we then limit discussion on this group to some approved list of written traditions? Sharon - Chinese Medicine Sunday, September 14, 2003 5:19 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion --- <> Sharon wrote: > Hi Vanessa, > Why not do what ever. I mean if it ends up being > clinically effective?!? I suspect many of us don't > hold enough focus of spirit or mind to do this > easily. That is the problem you get away from the teachings from the real teachers ,bonafide ones, the ones that really understand TCM and the theories behind it and you get lost. There is why many in our profession can't explain the process behind this energetic world, they are in their own playing teachers themselves without really following a real teacher. > I think maybe this is what the term Maya, or > illusion might be eluding to, and we might get > caught up in the illusion, heck we invest alot of > time and resources into our perception of reality; > we practice it over and over and over again. We > think of it as real, when it is just one 'real' from > many 'real' we could choose from or if we are up to > it, we could actually create our own 'real'. > Sharon I am not sure what to say ) It is hard when we are in the ilusion that everything is an ilusion and don't know where reality starts. There is ilusion, and reality. I can see why some people are confused . We think we don't need a teacher or to follow their footsteps. that is why many in TCM groups don't bring the names and great works of this amazing teachers , such as Van Nghi and many others to the room. Many feel offended or just can't handle having to accept their teachings and their realization of the TCM world that not many can see and we think is all an ilusion. My question is : Would you want to be treated or give yourself to a practitioner that thinks is all an ilusion and I really don't need to follow any teacher or theories comming from them. I can create my own? This groups is about TCM and many here accept very easy the motion that the theories , processes within TCM is all an ilusion, Placebos , neurological, neurochemical etc... That is because we don't really want to pay our dues to the path that it takes to realize this energetic system. For the question: is TCM energetic world a reality ?, just go infront of one of these great teachers such as Van NGHI and his amazing results and you will figure out , unless the pink elephant is so directly seated on our eyes that we cannot even perceive their realization . Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Hello Anand, What you say about truth reminds me of travelling towards the horizon. No matter how far I travel a) I never get there and b) it always changes! Sharon - anand bapat Chinese Medicine Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:08 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion hi sharon, there is really only the truth in life. but as you hav rightly mentioned we all see part of the truth & believe that to be the REAL TRUTH. then we follow it all along blindly till we find something further along which convinces us that the new finding is the real truth. we are such a hasty society that we ruush headlomng into everything & then find out that the truth was elusive. we will get to the truth one day. till then we have to keep going the way we are & manage. living in this world of part truths to seek the real truth. anand --- <> wrote: > Hi Vanessa, > Why not do what ever. I mean if it ends up being > clinically effective?!? I suspect many of us don't > hold enough focus of spirit or mind to do this > easily. > > That's right though, we just need to create our own > styles theories etc, yet perhaps we need another's > reality to start us off, however, unfortunately, > perhaps we take their system as real and forgot why > we started in their footsteps. > > Or perhaps we believe there can be only one truth > and can't handle contradictions where the opposite > works just as well as the 'rule', so we have to find > a system that agrees with our experience of reality > and stick to it like glue... hoping that no one > changes the rules, or else we will be sunk. > > I supose some masters teach their style because some > one said, " Hey I like that, will you teach me? " And > so begins the a reality going from inside one person > across to another with the use of language to > explain the 'why's and wherefore's'. A new system > is now birthed. > > I think maybe this is what the term Maya, or > illusion might be eluding to, and we might get > caught up in the illusion, heck we invest alot of > time and resources into our perception of reality; > we practice it over and over and over again. We > think of it as real, when it is just one 'real' from > many 'real' we could choose from or if we are up to > it, we could actually create our own 'real'. > Sharon > - > > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:51 PM > Re: Felix man's latest book states > acupuncture to be largely an ilusion > > > Hello Sharon, we need to understand that Bruce Lee > was > a teacher and he himself was teaching his own > style. > You don't see in his classes the students doing > whatever they came to mind. They was following his > style and when students got away from the essence > he > himslef corret them up. > Many of the great teachers states that we need to > find > our own understanding and realize the teaching on > our > own, but that doesn't mean just do whatever you > imagine or whatever comes to your mind. If that > was > true we didn't need them, we just neede to create > our > own styles and theories, principles etc.... > If that was the case they would not teach a style > and > spend soo much time of their lifes teaching and > directing the students to that road. > There is nothing wrong in realizing on our own, > and > that has to come , or we will never really enter > the > teachings of this great teachers. > I had some great teachers and they told me: if you > don't realize this teachings on your own , than > your > understanding will only be technical and > superficial. > Vanessa > > >> > > > > Bruce Lee, the martial artist, said something > about > > each one of us finding our own form of the > martial > > art and not necessarily following older more > > traditional forms. I think this is like our ap. > It > > is good to walk in the footsteps of the > 'masters', > > but and this is my reality but, and no one > else's, I > > agree with what I thought Bruce Lee to mean, and > > that is to find one's own footsteps. Or if you > like > > create one's own illusion of reality and create > the > > 'rules' that govern that reality. > > > > Maybe its about learning to do just this rather > than > > the reality one creates. IE maybe it is the > creative > > process itself that is the importance and not > the > > illusions we call reality and spend so much > energy > > promoting or defending or destroying another's > > 'reality'. > > Yours somewhere out there in esoteric > land...dash it > > I found the quick sand....again.... > > Sharon > > - > > > > To: > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:13 PM > > Re: Felix man's latest book > states > > acupuncture to be largely an ilusion > > > > > > I find it hard to believe that the TCM system > is > > open > > choice to coin tossing and open mind to the > point > > that > > we can use our loose imagination to figure > things > > out, > > no wonder we are all lost. > > I think we need to get closer to the ones that > > really > > knows the TCM system and stay in the shore of > > their > > understanding, teachings and pratice. > > They cross the fine line in the TCM word , and > if > > we > > want to enter this understanding we need to > follow > > their footsteeps. > > Can we agree to this or to assume following > their > > foosteeps would be a sign of not so open > mind?? > > Vanessa > > > > <Alon Wrote : > > > > > > >>>>I do not think anybody can say that Man > has > > no > > > depth in his understanding of acup. You may > not > > like > > > his views, you may argue his rational, but > you > > can > > > not say he does not know the field. > Considering > > that > > > RCTs on acupuncture are about 50/50 ie a > coin > > toss, > > > our minds need to stay open to any argument > or > > > development. > > > Alon > > > > > > > > > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web > site > > design software > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 To compare monkeys with masters in the field of TCM is not a good begining to prove your level of expertize in learning on you own. Vanessa( did I said that I would just be a seer?)) >> Sharon wrote it: Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon? Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was between isolated groups of monkeys. Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 I understand that things will develop but you need to go back to the source where this great personalities have been and admire their foundation, standard and teachings. The way you say is like you can in your own start your own version of TCM. Good luck. Can you share some of you discoveries? I have one advantage I am backed up by the past teachers and their realizations, I try my best to follow their views and offcourse enter this dimension hoping to realize it myself. But others are in the field of trial and error sometimes for 20 years or more, until they came to find out yes the right way was writeen long time ago and I missed. Vanessa >>Sharon: Manaka wrote something like this; " If I made a treatment for x disease and wrote it down, would people in 100 years time say that this is the best treatment for x disease? " Shall we then limit discussion on this group to some approved list of written traditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Vanessa, My apologise if you thought my intention was to prove any level of expertise in learning on my own. I just treat people and use the tools at hand. Occasionaly I might find another way to use a tool. I could have said that electricity was discovered about the same time at different places in the world; it is just that the concept of morphological fields have been using the term 100th monkey phenomenon and the example of the female monkey to illustrate the concept. So I was following the footsteps of others. Regards Sharon - Chinese Medicine Monday, September 15, 2003 9:09 AM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion To compare monkeys with masters in the field of TCM is not a good begining to prove your level of expertize in learning on you own. Vanessa( did I said that I would just be a seer?)) >> Sharon wrote it: Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon? Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was between isolated groups of monkeys. Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Ok lets shake hands . Enougt of this monkey stuff ) I myself feel unconforatble in having to argue issues when the best is on the taste of these theories and principles. I had one teacher coming from a tibetan style of medicine where he used energetic mechanism of the body to stimulate results. I never saw he lossing a case eventhough he use to say, don't expect cures all the time. I saw enought and I have no doubt in the following a great teacher's mind, because soon or latter you will reach a very deeper plataform of understanding set out by his direction. Vanessa >> <> wrote: Vanessa, My apologise if you thought my intention was to prove any level of expertise in learning on my own. I just treat people and use the tools at hand. Occasionaly I might find another way to use a tool. I could have said that electricity was discovered about the same time at different places in the world; it is just that the concept of morphological fields have been using the term 100th monkey phenomenon and the example of the female monkey to illustrate the concept. So I was following the footsteps of others. Regards Sharon - Chinese Medicine Monday, September 15, 2003 9:09 AM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion To compare monkeys with masters in the field of TCM is not a good begining to prove your level of expertize in learning on you own. Vanessa( did I said that I would just be a seer?)) >> Sharon wrote it: Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon? Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was between isolated groups of monkeys. Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Vanessa, Going back to the source may mean different things to different people. For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in the Han period, contradict themselves. In one we find damp pertaining to the element of Earth in another to the element of Water. So which source do you mean going back to? Where do you place your authority? One of my TCM teachers tells the story of being in one of the Chinese hospitals and the master told him to insert the needle at UB40, which he did, the master said " No, no, no, " and took it out and then inserted at UB40 and then left the room, another master entered the room and said " What is this? " To which my teacher replied, " UB40 " , and the second master said " No, No, No! " and took out the needle and relocated the point UB40. The second master left the room and the my teacher watched as the patient just started laughing out loud. Who is right here? So one of my big discoveries is that there are many right answers to the same question, some of which contradict each other in the extreme. What I strive to find in the moments of making a treatment is the best right answer there and then. For me, the best right answer is the one that makes the shifts in the treatment. For example last week the third treatment for a woman who complained of arthritis. I made the root treatment a non-inserted TH based on her sho, I then did direct moxa on the bunions, (I think this is Japanese style, I picked up but can't tell you who it is but it is the best way to get rid of pain and reduce the bunions I have come across), I then inserted a needle at GB43 the water point because she said she had bad sciatica only after standing for a long time. So over standing weakens the Kidney qi, and this was on the GB channel, hence the water pt on the GB channel. I checked the pt information in Deadman, nothing there except perhaps moving heat from the body; her pulse was quite rapid. In addition she had a ganglion near Lu 7. I had said we could do a technique I learnt in TCM studies of using a hot needle into the ganglion, however, I would prefer to use the ganglion as a yardstick and as it disappears we will know that your circulation is improved as the stagnation resolves. She had been massaging the fingers for arthritis, as I had explained the relationship in hand AP to the fingers, she had found much improvement in her neck by doing the hand massage according to Korean hand AP point location (thanks Holger). In the course of the treatment the ganglion disappeared. We were both surprised, she had had it since childhood and her dad has one. This is just how I organised the information.....this time; I am eclectic, that is my nature; so the source is really many sources and exploring the differences between sources is such a source of information in its own right. I now tend to use the pulse as a teaching guide within my treatment. The more consolidated the pulse, the more it comes to the right depth, the right speed, the right magnitude, the right stillness, the right fullness, I know that the treatment has gone well and I await her next visit to hear what that means to her. Sharon - Chinese Medicine Monday, September 15, 2003 9:20 AM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion I understand that things will develop but you need to go back to the source where this great personalities have been and admire their foundation, standard and teachings. The way you say is like you can in your own start your own version of TCM. Good luck. Can you share some of you discoveries? I have one advantage I am backed up by the past teachers and their realizations, I try my best to follow their views and offcourse enter this dimension hoping to realize it myself. But others are in the field of trial and error sometimes for 20 years or more, until they came to find out yes the right way was writeen long time ago and I missed. Vanessa >>Sharon: Manaka wrote something like this; " If I made a treatment for x disease and wrote it down, would people in 100 years time say that this is the best treatment for x disease? " Shall we then limit discussion on this group to some approved list of written traditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 To follow a great teacher's mind, is a journey in itself. Sharon - " " <vbirang <Chinese Medicine > Monday, September 15, 2003 10:09 AM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion Ok lets shake hands . Enougt of this monkey stuff ) I myself feel unconforatble in having to argue issues when the best is on the taste of these theories and principles. I had one teacher coming from a tibetan style of medicine where he used energetic mechanism of the body to stimulate results. I never saw he lossing a case eventhough he use to say, don't expect cures all the time. I saw enought and I have no doubt in the following a great teacher's mind, because soon or latter you will reach a very deeper plataform of understanding set out by his direction. Vanessa >> <> wrote: Vanessa, My apologise if you thought my intention was to prove any level of expertise in learning on my own. I just treat people and use the tools at hand. Occasionaly I might find another way to use a tool. I could have said that electricity was discovered about the same time at different places in the world; it is just that the concept of morphological fields have been using the term 100th monkey phenomenon and the example of the female monkey to illustrate the concept. So I was following the footsteps of others. Regards Sharon - Chinese Medicine Monday, September 15, 2003 9:09 AM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion To compare monkeys with masters in the field of TCM is not a good begining to prove your level of expertize in learning on you own. Vanessa( did I said that I would just be a seer?)) >> Sharon wrote it: Have you ever heard of the 100th monkey phenomenon? Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was between isolated groups of monkeys. Well that first monkey had a new way of organising, in her case she started to wash the sweet potato with water before eating it.>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 So when old-timers like Mann, make statements about acupuncture that shake standard doctrines, I pay attention. >>>I would too, even if just to open another possibility or door Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 find it hard to believe that the TCM system is open choice to coin tossing and open mind to the point that we can use our loose imagination to figure things out, no wonder we are all lost. >>>>The comment is or RTCs, your believe has nothing to do with it. Just look at the entire western literature. In that comment i was not including Asian studies Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 has merely a role in activating the healing process (or growing process) that is already resident in the client. >>>>Emmanuel these are concepts are from western healing traditions. According to our friend unschuld they are not to be found any were in CM Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 I am impressed after all the books, seminars, writings, courses, teachers, about TCM we can still say is all an ilusion, Placebo effect to most of the treatments, everything but what TCM has been essentially based on " energetic system with it's theories, principles etc... " >>>>There we go again with black and white thinking. Why do people insist in this type of rhetoric. Black and white thinking does not allow for the openness needed for critical evaluation. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Where once an new action is commenced by one, then it appears in other parts of the world without any contact between the participants. In this case it was between isolated groups of monkeys. >>>Certainly most developments in medicine mirrors the timing in west and east. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Sharon wrote: So one of my big discoveries is that there are many right answers to the same question, some of which contradict each other in the extreme. What I strive to find in the moments of making a treatment is the best right answer there and then. For me, the best right answer is the one that makes the shifts in the treatment. Hi Sharon, I'm trained in Western science with a few years in medical school in addition to other graduate studies. I've noted to my students that in Western medicine part of the training is to pose many correct answers and to ask the student to pick which one to use and to support their choice. I've taken on tutoring nurses and medical students for their boards and have noted that this is the exercise that is most often demanded of them. I greatly appreciate that you demand this exercise of yourself. I sense that life in general offers us many correct options ... some better than others. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 >>Sharon wrote : > > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in the > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we find > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in another > to the element of Water. So which source do you > mean going back to? Where do you place your > authority? The authority goes to the essence " energetic system " In this energetic system there is a world within with many different principles, some use bleeding some don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5 elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points only, some don't, etc... for the different reasons that belongs to this energetic world. So the idea here is the Foundation and the authority falls where you as a student can understand. There is no sense in following a very complex theory, principles if we can't understand, but that doesn't mean the theory is faulty or that the energetic system is an ilusion. > One of my TCM teachers tells the story of being in > one of the Chinese hospitals and the master told him > to insert the needle at UB40, which he did, the > master said " No, no, no, " and took it out and then > inserted at UB40 and then left the room, another > master entered the room and said " What is this? " To > which my teacher replied, " UB40 " , and the second > master said " No, No, No! " and took out the needle > and relocated the point UB40. The second master > left the room and the my teacher watched as the > patient just started laughing out loud. Who is > right here? I find it difficult to find 2 masters in the same room, they prefer having their own space where they enjoy their discoveries and practice. But the answer is both of them are right . If you ask them to demonstrate they will get the best results using their BL 40 as they wish. But the point here is : What do you find understandable or what works better for you? Again that doesn't mean they are wrong or that is an ilusion, is just that they have different ways of doing things as masters in the common ground energy system as in TCM. I could tell you another story about St 36 on 3 different places by great teachers. Question are they wrong or contradictory? No . That is their discovery and I must say amazing results sometimes just using that point. Another question: Why can't we drop this different teachers and just be on our own? The answers is they are the great teachers and we students, when the time come that maybe we become on their level of results than yes you can be on your own and you should. But always having the respect that they was the ones that lead us into this discoveries. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Hello Sharon, reading your treatment plan I find it amazing and full of fundamental theories and principles that are of the highest quality. Sorry for any incnvenience I brought to you, but it is a pleasure to discuss this issues with . Vanessa >>Sharon wrote : > For example last week the third treatment for a > woman who complained of arthritis. > > I made the root treatment a non-inserted TH based on > her sho, I then did direct moxa on the bunions, (I > think this is Japanese style, I picked up but can't > tell you who it is but it is the best way to get rid > of pain and reduce the bunions I have come across), > I then inserted a needle at GB43 the water point > because she said she had bad sciatica only after > standing for a long time. So over standing weakens > the Kidney qi, and this was on the GB channel, hence > the water pt on the GB channel. I checked the pt > information in Deadman, nothing there except perhaps > moving heat from the body; her pulse was quite > rapid. > > In addition she had a ganglion near Lu 7. I had > said we could do a technique I learnt in TCM studies > of using a hot needle into the ganglion, however, I > would prefer to use the ganglion as a yardstick and > as it disappears we will know that your circulation > is improved as the stagnation resolves. > > She had been massaging the fingers for arthritis, as > I had explained the relationship in hand AP to the > fingers, she had found much improvement in her neck > by doing the hand massage according to Korean hand > AP point location (thanks Holger). > > In the course of the treatment the ganglion > disappeared. We were both surprised, she had had it > since childhood and her dad has one. > > This is just how I organised the > information.....this time; I am eclectic, that is my > nature; so the source is really many sources and > exploring the differences between sources is such a > source of information in its own right. I now tend > to use the pulse as a teaching guide within my > treatment. The more consolidated the pulse, the > more it comes to the right depth, the right speed, > the right magnitude, the right stillness, the right > fullness, I know that the treatment has gone well > and I await her next visit to hear what that means > to her. > > Sharon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 --- <> wrote: > To follow a great teacher's mind, is a journey in > itself. > Sharon You go girl ) Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Nice rhetoric Vanessa, Yet what is your energetic system based upon? What pulse system do you follow and where does it arise from? What is your diagnostic system/s? Do you see assessing the qi of the organs or the qi of the meridians from the pulse? There are many commentaries on the 5E approach whose do you follow ? What do you mean that the authority falls where the student understands? I was taught historically that the theory followed the practice, not that the practice followed the theory. Theory should be useable and understandable, imo, and within the context and content of its time. It is perhaps the rationalisation of the treatment, sometimes in hindsight sometimes with foresight, in my experience. If it is not understandable or useable then what point the theory? And perhaps this reflects the teacher's comprehension more so than the theory. For instance I do see in a modern day school, that of the Toyohari, that they use specific interpretations of specific Chapters of the Classic of Difficulties. However, if something is more clinically effective in practice, then they deviate from the theory. For instance they find that Kid 7 is a better Kidney qi tonification pt than Kid 3. They find Lu 5 a better tonification pt than Lu 9. when tonifying the Kidney qi...in the clinic. They continually review their 'theory' in light of their practice and clinical effectiveness. Yes masters get the best results doing what they do best. And my point is, not that UB 40 is located here or there or next door to here or there. It is the point that gives the practitioner results for each or any given treatment. Too much emphasis is on the technical pt location and not enough on feeling for the doorway, the vortex, the in and the out of the information of the qi, through what we call acupoints. You keep calling it TCM. TCM is a very definable system of medicine; it was developed and taught in a specific manner (classroom style) at a specific point in time (1950's onwards); it falls perhaps under a wider umbrella called by Birch and Felt in Understanding Acupuncture, TEAM; Traditional East Asian Medicine. TCM is a curriculum adopted by a number of acupuncture schools around the world. You can, if you like, just add stuff and call it TCM, but that is not what is taught as TCM. Van Nghi's work for instance is not TCM. A little quote from Birch and Felt, (1999:52) about the establishment of TCM, " Traditional medical practice was saved, but the qi paradigm was its ransom. As Paul Unschuld notes, it was now the branches of a tree, the philosophical roots of which had been severed. Nonetheless, for the first time in 20th century, Chinese medicine had a firm cultural position, a clear economic role, and a powerful political system. " Remember this is not long after acupuncture in China was almost wiped out. When we understand where in time and in what historical context the different theories where written we start to recognise the systems of associations we are using. These for me are some of the connections to philosophical roots which were severed according to Unschuld as cited by Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that is was based on a 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that TCM was IT. Nothing else was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful discussions of qi and yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to learn a whole heap of zang fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to all that wonderful Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was rotate learning functions and indications of acupoints. There was no room for concepts such as too much water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or lack of fire to evaporate the water. It was this point does that approach. With the maturity that there is much more to acupuncture than TCM school, came the ability to adapt the practice to what I find in clinic, rather than chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas. For instance finding bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to consider time based treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to the mornings? However, if there is an absence of regular bowel movements, then I may need to consider other theoretical constructs in which to make my associations in order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel movements as the symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or obstruction of qi. I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first encounters with Japanese acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating chronic fatigue.... he kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to if someone asked me this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to treat diseases... now I know I need to better understand how to assess and influence the person through their qi. If I were to see a wind cold attack that started showing up patches of purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be thinking about Warm disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital, and not cold penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun. However, if I don't know this history then I might think that all wind cold should be treated with Lu 7 and Co 4. I may not realise that excess Lung conditions arise from the Liver and I may continue to try to tonify the already excess Lung and ignore the distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise from, knowing which style I am doing tells to those who understand history, which schools I follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately, for many TCM means what Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. I have only a splattering of understanding acupuncture concepts within their own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit of knowledge has helped me to understand and organise where I am treating from. A frame of reference. And like others have said, the more I treat the less I am sure of, however, I know at least a little bit about where the ideas that consciously inform me come from. Sharon - Chinese Medicine Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion >>Sharon wrote : > > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in the > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we find > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in another > to the element of Water. So which source do you > mean going back to? Where do you place your > authority? The authority goes to the essence " energetic system " In this energetic system there is a world within with many different principles, some use bleeding some don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5 elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points only, some don't, etc... for the different reasons that belongs to this energetic world. So the idea here is the Foundation and the authority falls where you as a student can understand. There is no sense in following a very complex theory, principles if we can't understand, but that doesn't mean the theory is faulty or that the energetic system is an ilusion. > One of my TCM teachers tells the story of being in > one of the Chinese hospitals and the master told him > to insert the needle at UB40, which he did, the > master said " No, no, no, " and took it out and then > inserted at UB40 and then left the room, another > master entered the room and said " What is this? " To > which my teacher replied, " UB40 " , and the second > master said " No, No, No! " and took out the needle > and relocated the point UB40. The second master > left the room and the my teacher watched as the > patient just started laughing out loud. Who is > right here? I find it difficult to find 2 masters in the same room, they prefer having their own space where they enjoy their discoveries and practice. But the answer is both of them are right . If you ask them to demonstrate they will get the best results using their BL 40 as they wish. But the point here is : What do you find understandable or what works better for you? Again that doesn't mean they are wrong or that is an ilusion, is just that they have different ways of doing things as masters in the common ground energy system as in TCM. I could tell you another story about St 36 on 3 different places by great teachers. Question are they wrong or contradictory? No . That is their discovery and I must say amazing results sometimes just using that point. Another question: Why can't we drop this different teachers and just be on our own? The answers is they are the great teachers and we students, when the time come that maybe we become on their level of results than yes you can be on your own and you should. But always having the respect that they was the ones that lead us into this discoveries. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Hello Sharon Ican see you have some questionssssssssssssssssssssss My pleasure >> <> wrote: Nice rhetoric Vanessa, Yet what is your energetic system based upon?>> Based on meridians, and all the principles of chi within the body and outside the body as enviromental etc.. The energetic system that I follow is the ones that TCM is made of. >>What pulse system do you follow and where does it arise from?>> Pulse arise from the qi living system in health or dysfunction, a good source of diagnosis or analises of the internal system, meridian etc.. I follow the LiShi Shen , some tibetan and other source from Beijing. >>What is your diagnostic system/s?>> Pulse , tongue, listening, I pay attention to allot of the TCM principles such as 5 elements theory and I look for the balance within this theory in the patient. HAra diagnosis. I use other systems of treatment but would not be nice to give my tricks all , wouldn't you agree?? ) >>Do you see assessing the qi of the organs or the qi of the meridians from the pulse?>> Not just from the pulse but Hara and tongue. >>There are many commentaries on the 5E approach whose do you follow ?>. The japanese style. >>What do you mean that the authority falls where the student understands?>> There is authority and that is fine, but unless the student or the practitioner realizes it, the authority that is within the thepry, principle or way of practice will not be revealed to us. I believe in that TCM knowledge is best given by someone that past the invisible line, went beyound the logic of physics, neurologic,neurochemical, mental, etc... I believe too that this energetic world cannot be conquered by intelectual abilities but revelead to us. That doesn't mean we stop looking to understand it. But one thing is necessary, faith in those that taught us about this TCM world principles, theories etc.. If the teacher has the energetic realization he can pass it to us, in time. >>I was taught historically that the theory followed the practice, not that the practice followed the theory. Theory should be useable and understandable, imo, and within the context and content of its time. It is perhaps the rationalisation of the treatment, sometimes in hindsight sometimes with foresight, in my experience. If it is not understandable or useable then what point the theory? And perhaps this reflects the teacher's comprehension more so than the theory. >. I teach some subjects where I am really good at it, no further comments too much information ) But I tell my students you need to have the principle, the theory and go from there into the practice. Offcourse they need to have the tools and the techniques to reach the changes required, but the principle is a world in itself. If we can enter the principle the result will come true as magic or miracle. " I hope someone doesn't use this comment as religious statement ) " Do you understand ? I can get a principle and enter and right there you will see the results. Principles and theory came from the living system as in within the TCMedicine. The principles and theory is just a way to enter this internal invisible physiology based on meridians, qi/blood. >>For instance I do see in a modern day school, that of the Toyohari, that they use specific interpretations of specific Chapters of the Classic of Difficulties. However, if something is more clinically effective in practice, then they deviate from the theory. For instance they find that Kid 7 is a better Kidney qi tonification pt than Kid 3. They find Lu 5 a better tonification pt than Lu 9. when tonifying the Kidney qi...in the clinic. They continually review their 'theory' in light of their practice and clinical effectiveness. >. Yes this doesn't mean that the other way as Kid 3 is not another principle or theory in itself. The TCm system is an infinite amount of living knowledge for practical use in many ways physiological, mental, emotional and many other ways that we didn't reach yet. SO sometimes seems that one theory contradicts others or that one is different than others, or that one is better to use in one patient and other theory for the other patient. It is an art and a living system. Itis myopinion that we should learn about this different theories and principles and try t understand and whatever works for us as results for patients we should keep and go deeeper in the understanding. Richard told the group one time that he knew one doctor that only use Li 4 for all types of problem. Without going to far in the explanation, we need to observe here that this person could go into a deepr function in the use of the Li 4 as a point to influence other energetic systems. It is a world within the energetic world. >>Yes masters get the best results doing what they do best. And my point is, not that UB 40 is located here or there or next door to here or there. It is the point that gives the practitioner results for each or any given treatment. Too much emphasis is on the technical pt location and not enough on feeling for the doorway, the vortex, the in and the out of the information of the qi, through what we call acupoints.>> I agree. >>You keep calling it TCM. TCM is a very definable system of medicine; it was developed and taught in a specific manner (classroom style) at a specific point in time (1950's onwards); it falls perhaps under a wider umbrella called by Birch and Felt in Understanding Acupuncture, TEAM; Traditional East Asian Medicine. TCM is a curriculum adopted by a number of acupuncture schools around the world. You can, if you like, just add stuff and call it TCM, but that is not what is taught as TCM. Van Nghi's work for instance is not TCM. >. TCM in my view is anythingthat follows the principle energy as chi and blood, meridians and any concept that is grounded in energetic system as majority of the Acupuncture and herbal books are saying. Again I would not spend time arguing the origin of my view as TCM . In my opinion or it is based on energetic principles or not, with history or not. The energetic world is invisible and will take faith in the biggining and realization of this world in the end. I was really lucky I had a tibetan teacher and he pretty much kicked me in. So there you go, it has nothing to do with believe is a reality by nature , is just that many doesn't see it,but can be observed in their manifestations. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 >> Sharon wrote it:. When we understand where in time and in what historical context the different theories where written we start to recognise the systems of associations we are using. These for me are some of the connections to philosophical roots which were severed according to Unschuld as cited by Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that is was based on a 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that TCM was IT. Nothing else was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful discussions of qi and yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to learn a whole heap of zang fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to all that wonderful Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was rotate learning functions and indications of acupoints. There was no room for concepts such as too much water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or lack of fire to evaporate the water. It was this point does that approach.>. Yes I can relate to it. I had many teachers but one tibetan one played a strong role in my understanding. He was very good practitioner with herbs and acupuncture, I saw some incredible cases where he just had major results in minutes. Serious cases of pain and treatments was usually 100% successful. He use to tell me: " Not evertyhing question needs an answer " He said many of this knowledge was here even before the ones that wrote it down. This is a living knowledge and has it's own inteligence and control. You can't get there intelectually,is by revelation. I know is hard for many to understand this statements but like I said it is an invisible world ), whatelse can I say? >>With the maturity that there is much more to acupuncture than TCM school, came the ability to adapt the practice to what I find in clinic, rather than chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas. For instance finding bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to consider time based treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to the mornings? However, if there is an absence of regular bowel movements, then I may need to consider other theoretical constructs in which to make my associations in order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel movements as the symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or obstruction of qi. I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first encounters with Japanese acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating chronic fatigue.... he kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to if someone asked me this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to treat diseases... now I know I need to better understand how to assess and influence the person through their qi.>> I agree with you and I appreciate your honesty in this post. >>If I were to see a wind cold attack that started showing up patches of purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be thinking about Warm disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital, and not cold penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun. However, if I don't know this history then I might think that all wind cold should be treated with Lu 7 and Co 4. >. It is very hard to know all, so than we have others practicing where we reffer for consultation and hopefully a brake in the case. >>I may not realise that excess Lung conditions arise from the Liver and I may continue to try to tonify the already excess Lung and ignore the distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise from, knowing which style I am doing tells to those who understand history, which schools I follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately, for many TCM means what Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. >> The word monolithic singular truth gave a headache temporal related ) to high of a vocabulary for my needs ) >> I have only a splattering of understanding acupuncture concepts within their own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit of knowledge has helped me to understand and organise where I am treating from. A frame of reference. And like others have said, the more I treat the less I am sure of, however, I know at least a little bit about where the ideas that consciously inform me come from. Sharon.. I feel the saem the more I am revelad of this energetic world the more I can see of It's infinite source of truth, principles,theories and possibilities. Vanessa - Chinese Medicine Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion >>Sharon wrote : > > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in the > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we find > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in another > to the element of Water. So which source do you > mean going back to? Where do you place your > authority? The authority goes to the essence " energetic system " In this energetic system there is a world within with many different principles, some use bleeding some don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5 elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points only, some don't, etc... for the different reasons that belongs to this energetic world. So the idea here is the Foundation and the authority falls where you as a student can understand. There is no sense in following a very complex theory, principles if we can't understand, but that doesn't mean the theory is faulty or that the energetic system is an ilusion. > One of my TCM teachers tells the story of being in > one of the Chinese hospitals and the master told him > to insert the needle at UB40, which he did, the > master said " No, no, no, " and took it out and then > inserted at UB40 and then left the room, another > master entered the room and said " What is this? " To > which my teacher replied, " UB40 " , and the second > master said " No, No, No! " and took out the needle > and relocated the point UB40. The second master > left the room and the my teacher watched as the > patient just started laughing out loud. Who is > right here? I find it difficult to find 2 masters in the same room, they prefer having their own space where they enjoy their discoveries and practice. But the answer is both of them are right . If you ask them to demonstrate they will get the best results using their BL 40 as they wish. But the point here is : What do you find understandable or what works better for you? Again that doesn't mean they are wrong or that is an ilusion, is just that they have different ways of doing things as masters in the common ground energy system as in TCM. I could tell you another story about St 36 on 3 different places by great teachers. Question are they wrong or contradictory? No . That is their discovery and I must say amazing results sometimes just using that point. Another question: Why can't we drop this different teachers and just be on our own? The answers is they are the great teachers and we students, when the time come that maybe we become on their level of results than yes you can be on your own and you should. But always having the respect that they was the ones that lead us into this discoveries. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Fascinating reply Vanessa, It is difficult for discussion if we use terms like TCM where it means so many different things between us. For instance there is no great use of 5 phases in TCM curriculum which I took. In fact 5 Phases was put down as not very clinically useful. I had to look elsewhere to find information on the 5 Phases. So when you say TCM, you include AP elements that I did not find taught under that banner. When you say you follow Japanese style 5 phases, what style is this please, I don't know of any Japanese 5 phase. Do you place the Earth element in the centre with the other elements at the compass points; or in a pentagonal arrangement? Can you outline the Li Shi Shen style of acupuncture please? (Please protect those secrets you feel must stay hidden.) There are at least two ideas of taking pulses; of these one is that it is the qi circulation in the meridians that is being assessed. The other is that it is the qi in the organs that is being assessed. When I look to the pulse I am looking at qi circulation in the meridians, not the organs, how about you? When I asked about the pulse system, I was thinking about which organ/meridian is located where? Or do you use the three heaters. Also there are some specific systems such as Dr Shen's. Which hara diagnosis system do you use? Do you think the qi flows in one big circuit or do you think qi can also flow from outside the extremities through the fingers and toes to the trunk? Finally why do you need faith in the teacher? What happens when one doesn't have faith or loses one's faith? Sharon - Chinese Medicine Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:19 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion Hello Sharon Ican see you have some questionssssssssssssssssssssss My pleasure >> <> wrote: Nice rhetoric Vanessa, Yet what is your energetic system based upon?>> Based on meridians, and all the principles of chi within the body and outside the body as enviromental etc.. The energetic system that I follow is the ones that TCM is made of. >>What pulse system do you follow and where does it arise from?>> Pulse arise from the qi living system in health or dysfunction, a good source of diagnosis or analises of the internal system, meridian etc.. I follow the LiShi Shen , some tibetan and other source from Beijing. >>What is your diagnostic system/s?>> Pulse , tongue, listening, I pay attention to allot of the TCM principles such as 5 elements theory and I look for the balance within this theory in the patient. HAra diagnosis. I use other systems of treatment but would not be nice to give my tricks all , wouldn't you agree?? ) >>Do you see assessing the qi of the organs or the qi of the meridians from the pulse?>> Not just from the pulse but Hara and tongue. >>There are many commentaries on the 5E approach whose do you follow ?>. The japanese style. >>What do you mean that the authority falls where the student understands?>> There is authority and that is fine, but unless the student or the practitioner realizes it, the authority that is within the thepry, principle or way of practice will not be revealed to us. I believe in that TCM knowledge is best given by someone that past the invisible line, went beyound the logic of physics, neurologic,neurochemical, mental, etc... I believe too that this energetic world cannot be conquered by intelectual abilities but revelead to us. That doesn't mean we stop looking to understand it. But one thing is necessary, faith in those that taught us about this TCM world principles, theories etc.. If the teacher has the energetic realization he can pass it to us, in time. >>I was taught historically that the theory followed the practice, not that the practice followed the theory. Theory should be useable and understandable, imo, and within the context and content of its time. It is perhaps the rationalisation of the treatment, sometimes in hindsight sometimes with foresight, in my experience. If it is not understandable or useable then what point the theory? And perhaps this reflects the teacher's comprehension more so than the theory. >. I teach some subjects where I am really good at it, no further comments too much information ) But I tell my students you need to have the principle, the theory and go from there into the practice. Offcourse they need to have the tools and the techniques to reach the changes required, but the principle is a world in itself. If we can enter the principle the result will come true as magic or miracle. " I hope someone doesn't use this comment as religious statement ) " Do you understand ? I can get a principle and enter and right there you will see the results. Principles and theory came from the living system as in within the TCMedicine. The principles and theory is just a way to enter this internal invisible physiology based on meridians, qi/blood. >>For instance I do see in a modern day school, that of the Toyohari, that they use specific interpretations of specific Chapters of the Classic of Difficulties. However, if something is more clinically effective in practice, then they deviate from the theory. For instance they find that Kid 7 is a better Kidney qi tonification pt than Kid 3. They find Lu 5 a better tonification pt than Lu 9. when tonifying the Kidney qi...in the clinic. They continually review their 'theory' in light of their practice and clinical effectiveness. >. Yes this doesn't mean that the other way as Kid 3 is not another principle or theory in itself. The TCm system is an infinite amount of living knowledge for practical use in many ways physiological, mental, emotional and many other ways that we didn't reach yet. SO sometimes seems that one theory contradicts others or that one is different than others, or that one is better to use in one patient and other theory for the other patient. It is an art and a living system. Itis myopinion that we should learn about this different theories and principles and try t understand and whatever works for us as results for patients we should keep and go deeeper in the understanding. Richard told the group one time that he knew one doctor that only use Li 4 for all types of problem. Without going to far in the explanation, we need to observe here that this person could go into a deepr function in the use of the Li 4 as a point to influence other energetic systems. It is a world within the energetic world. >>Yes masters get the best results doing what they do best. And my point is, not that UB 40 is located here or there or next door to here or there. It is the point that gives the practitioner results for each or any given treatment. Too much emphasis is on the technical pt location and not enough on feeling for the doorway, the vortex, the in and the out of the information of the qi, through what we call acupoints.>> I agree. >>You keep calling it TCM. TCM is a very definable system of medicine; it was developed and taught in a specific manner (classroom style) at a specific point in time (1950's onwards); it falls perhaps under a wider umbrella called by Birch and Felt in Understanding Acupuncture, TEAM; Traditional East Asian Medicine. TCM is a curriculum adopted by a number of acupuncture schools around the world. You can, if you like, just add stuff and call it TCM, but that is not what is taught as TCM. Van Nghi's work for instance is not TCM. >. TCM in my view is anythingthat follows the principle energy as chi and blood, meridians and any concept that is grounded in energetic system as majority of the Acupuncture and herbal books are saying. Again I would not spend time arguing the origin of my view as TCM . In my opinion or it is based on energetic principles or not, with history or not. The energetic world is invisible and will take faith in the biggining and realization of this world in the end. I was really lucky I had a tibetan teacher and he pretty much kicked me in. So there you go, it has nothing to do with believe is a reality by nature , is just that many doesn't see it,but can be observed in their manifestations. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 An invisible world Vanessa, ....perhaps it is an illusion. Sharon - " " <vbirang <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, September 16, 2003 1:32 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion >> Sharon wrote it:. When we understand where in time and in what historical context the different theories where written we start to recognise the systems of associations we are using. These for me are some of the connections to philosophical roots which were severed according to Unschuld as cited by Birch and Felt. TCM college failed to teach me that is was based on a 1950's decree from Mao; it taught me instead that TCM was IT. Nothing else was acupuncture. We went in college from wonderful discussions of qi and yin and yang in first year to suddenly having to learn a whole heap of zang fu pathologies in second year.... what happened to all that wonderful Oriental medicine philosophy? Suddenly it was rotate learning functions and indications of acupoints. There was no room for concepts such as too much water in earth or a failure of draining ditches or lack of fire to evaporate the water. It was this point does that approach.>. Yes I can relate to it. I had many teachers but one tibetan one played a strong role in my understanding. He was very good practitioner with herbs and acupuncture, I saw some incredible cases where he just had major results in minutes. Serious cases of pain and treatments was usually 100% successful. He use to tell me: " Not evertyhing question needs an answer " He said many of this knowledge was here even before the ones that wrote it down. This is a living knowledge and has it's own inteligence and control. You can't get there intelectually,is by revelation. I know is hard for many to understand this statements but like I said it is an invisible world ), whatelse can I say? >>With the maturity that there is much more to acupuncture than TCM school, came the ability to adapt the practice to what I find in clinic, rather than chasing you point formulea to treat western disaeas. For instance finding bowel movements between 5-7 at night allows me to consider time based treatments. How to get the bowels to move back to the mornings? However, if there is an absence of regular bowel movements, then I may need to consider other theoretical constructs in which to make my associations in order to select my acupoints. I might see the bowel movements as the symptom and not the cause, perhaps a lack or obstruction of qi. I remember asking Edward Obaidey, one of my first encounters with Japanese acupuncture, what was the pt formulae for treating chronic fatigue.... he kind of looked at me strangely... today, I would to if someone asked me this. Then I thought I had to find more formulae to treat diseases... now I know I need to better understand how to assess and influence the person through their qi.>> I agree with you and I appreciate your honesty in this post. >>If I were to see a wind cold attack that started showing up patches of purple skin, then I would know that I ought to be thinking about Warm disease theory, and probably a referral to hospital, and not cold penetration as written on in the Shan Han Lun. However, if I don't know this history then I might think that all wind cold should be treated with Lu 7 and Co 4. >. It is very hard to know all, so than we have others practicing where we reffer for consultation and hopefully a brake in the case. >>I may not realise that excess Lung conditions arise from the Liver and I may continue to try to tonify the already excess Lung and ignore the distressed Liver. Knowing where our theories arise from, knowing which style I am doing tells to those who understand history, which schools I follow, which premises I am holding. Unfortunately, for many TCM means what Bob says, that is some monolithic singular truth. >> The word monolithic singular truth gave a headache temporal related ) to high of a vocabulary for my needs ) >> I have only a splattering of understanding acupuncture concepts within their own time and place, yet I can say that even that bit of knowledge has helped me to understand and organise where I am treating from. A frame of reference. And like others have said, the more I treat the less I am sure of, however, I know at least a little bit about where the ideas that consciously inform me come from. Sharon.. I feel the saem the more I am revelad of this energetic world the more I can see of It's infinite source of truth, principles,theories and possibilities. Vanessa - Chinese Medicine Monday, September 15, 2003 3:37 PM Re: Felix man's latest book states acupuncture to be largely an ilusion >>Sharon wrote : > > For one person it may mean TCM as taught out of > Beijing, for another it means TCM taught out of > Nanning. For another it means the Su Wen. The > classics written in roughly 2,000 years ago in the > Han period, contradict themselves. In one we find > damp pertaining to the element of Earth in another > to the element of Water. So which source do you > mean going back to? Where do you place your > authority? The authority goes to the essence " energetic system " In this energetic system there is a world within with many different principles, some use bleeding some don't, some deep insertion, some don't, some use 5 elements , some don't , some use 8 extra points only, some don't, etc... for the different reasons that belongs to this energetic world. So the idea here is the Foundation and the authority falls where you as a student can understand. There is no sense in following a very complex theory, principles if we can't understand, but that doesn't mean the theory is faulty or that the energetic system is an ilusion. > One of my TCM teachers tells the story of being in > one of the Chinese hospitals and the master told him > to insert the needle at UB40, which he did, the > master said " No, no, no, " and took it out and then > inserted at UB40 and then left the room, another > master entered the room and said " What is this? " To > which my teacher replied, " UB40 " , and the second > master said " No, No, No! " and took out the needle > and relocated the point UB40. The second master > left the room and the my teacher watched as the > patient just started laughing out loud. Who is > right here? I find it difficult to find 2 masters in the same room, they prefer having their own space where they enjoy their discoveries and practice. But the answer is both of them are right . If you ask them to demonstrate they will get the best results using their BL 40 as they wish. But the point here is : What do you find understandable or what works better for you? Again that doesn't mean they are wrong or that is an ilusion, is just that they have different ways of doing things as masters in the common ground energy system as in TCM. I could tell you another story about St 36 on 3 different places by great teachers. Question are they wrong or contradictory? No . That is their discovery and I must say amazing results sometimes just using that point. Another question: Why can't we drop this different teachers and just be on our own? The answers is they are the great teachers and we students, when the time come that maybe we become on their level of results than yes you can be on your own and you should. But always having the respect that they was the ones that lead us into this discoveries. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Chinese Medicine , Sharon wrote: > There are at least two ideas of taking pulses; of these one is that it is the qi circulation in the meridians that is being assessed. The other is that it is the qi in the organs that is being assessed. When I look to the pulse I am looking at qi circulation in the meridians, not the organs, how about you? >>> Sharon: These pulse perspectives should not be thought of as mutually exclusive. You should always use them both---after all, patients use both. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 >Sharon wrote it: > > Finally why do you need faith in the teacher? What > happens when one doesn't have faith or loses one's > faith? > Sharon hello Sharon I am eternally thankfull to my teachers for the insight and the door openings that they taught me. I am thanfull for them to have accepted me as their student. I am not saying this as a cheap poetic statement, it is a reality experienced by many around the world. Many of us are affraid to have a teacher where you give your faith to it, Offcourse I am not talking of any teacher. If the teacher is real and he is within this understanding he can pass it to you. He can make it easier to enter the knowledge. There is an immense amount of people that have a great memory bank and they recite the TCM theories , old books statements, but in the end is just as blind as it can be. It is an invisible world( Energetic), so we need an special way to enter and way to stay there. I forgot to say that my tibetan teahcer was a master on gigong and many things that I saw or experience in that energetic system could not be appreciated by many, because our logical so-called intellectual mind is in the way and the experiences would only accepted as part of believe. But when you meet a good master in qigong you will know that he can enter a special dimension which TCM has many things in commom. So respect to a good teacher is important. It is amazing what a bonafide teacher can do for a good sincere by heart student. I saw many times. Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 --- James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: Hello Sharon, Jim here could give you an amazing information about pulse , he is very knowledgeable in pulse diagnosis. So make his presence known ) Ask him qustions and you will see how he sees pulse as a realistic way of taking infomration from within the body as an energetic system, etc... Vanessa >> Chinese Medicine , > Sharon wrote: > > There are at least two ideas of taking pulses; of > these one is > that it is the qi circulation in the meridians that > is being > assessed. The other is that it is the qi in the > organs that is being > assessed. When I look to the pulse I am looking at > qi circulation in > the meridians, not the organs, how about you? >>> > > > > Sharon: > > These pulse perspectives should not be thought of as > mutually > exclusive. You should always use them both---after > all, patients use > both. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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