Atkins

[Guest guest]

I don't mean to burst

your bubble, but three months is not a meaningful time to evaluate obesity

treatment.

>>>>Todd bubbles need to be burst and critical clinical evaluation taught every

day

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Todd-

 

Yes, absolutely... I do believe that Acupuncture is helping to speed up her

metabolism, and the herbs are helping to drain her excess dampness. Her

Spleen is not doing its job of correct transformation and transportation.

She has gotten off her diueretic medication, in addition when we first began

working together she was taken viconden every day, for years. I educated

her on how the vicodin was working to further slow down, her already

compromised metabolic factor. On a scale of 1 to 10 her damp factor is like

a 10. If I were to rate her degree of Spleen Qi xu, I would put that at a

10, as well. Her Spleen and stomach channel are incredibly painful when

palpated. To me, she is very classical SpQi xu with severe damp

accumulating. Her pulse is slippery and deep and diificult to feel in the

kidney position. Her tongue has a slight center crack, scallops, and the

color is pink. She always has allot of energy, and is the single mother of

three, works full time. Prior to seeing me she had not had a period in

almost 1 year... twenty four hours after her first treatment with me, she

had her period, and has been coming back every since! This particular

patient has tried every sort of *diet* looses 10 and gains 20. I use an

integrative approach, in my treatment room. I do use some of my physiology

and psychology background to help me understand my patients, and to help

them acheive their goals. For me the the positive results are that the

patient is feeling better, their mobility is better, and their outlook on

life is changing to their expectations... these are my gages as to whether

my treatment is effective. Can it be duplicated? Dunno- have to wait for

my next weight loss patient to call me. I keep putting out there (yes, to

the Universe), please send me the patients I can help the most.

 

 

Smiling... no bubble to bust here! Like I said first weight loss patient,

and certainly a beginner... although, I do see allot of patients every

week... it is about getting results and making the difference in peoples

life. I am thrilled for this patient and for the 3 months we have worked

together, we are having HUGE success. No way I am going to tell her that

Acupuncture and TCM does not really work for the long run. Her quality of

life is changing, and I am blessed to bear witness to the change. Part of

my job is coaching her on lifestyle changes. Slooooow changes, changes in

her core belief systems when it comes to weight. So, I suppose I am not

just using TCM and Acupucnture. I am not looking for long time weight

control... my intent is to help this patient to make better lifestyle

choices and to enjoy the journey in the process.

 

So with the success with this patient... her Mom who has the same slow

metabolism, wants to work with me.

 

 

Thanks for engaging me in a duscussion : )

 

Teresa

> Teresa

>

> With all due respect, I believe the protocol you describe would work

without

> TCM.. no doubt regular reinforcement of thrice weekly visits is useful

for

> psych support, but there is no evidence that thrice weekly acupuncture

helps

> weight loss inthe long term. couldn't this could have been accomplished

in a

> free facilitated support group as well. No doubt that one's psychology is

a key

> to weight loss; I just don't see how TCM factored in. do you think TCM

sped

> metabolism or helped resolve emotional issues? and did this better than

> standard methods?

 

 

 

>

> In addition, most overweight folks have lost huge amounts of weight

> repeatedly in short periods. You can only really claim TCM helped when

they

> have NOT put that weight back on within a few years. I don't mean to

burst

> your bubble, but three months is not a meaningful time to evaluate obesity

> treatment. I am saying this because I think it is essential that we not

> misrepresent the power of CM to the mainstream. In fact, most seasoned

px

> will admit that TCM contributes little to long term weight control and I

> believe this would be easily demonstrated with controlled research. OTOH,

> controlled research has shown the long term weight control benefits of the

> atkins diet. No needles necessary. :-)

>

 

> >

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

re: the single mother of 3 who is dignosed as very sp deficient and very damp

- why does she seem to have a lot of energy? Perhaps it is her drive,

motivation and sense of responsibility (which I suppose in CM would mean the

spirits

of her organs).

---roseanne s.

[Guest guest]

I think you are doing a great job, here, Teresa. To me, what you are

doing is completely in line with Dongyuan theory about qi

transformation, and your diagnosis is clearly expressed. There is

nothing wrong with using your motivation and coaching tools, the case

histories of many great Chinese physicians show that this is important,

and also the patients have to be motivated to do things for themselves.

 

I think what Todd is referring to in his last post is that the Chinese

didn't treat obesity very much, and it isn't mentioned in the

literature very often. Fewer people were overweight in the past,

perhaps, then now, and the extra weight was often a status symbol,

unlike today. However, many conditions involving poor spleen

transformation are mentioned, and we can apply these tools to such

situations.

 

Michael Broffman told me with my first obesity case 21 years ago that

it would take four full seasons to get results. He was right. After

four seasons, the patient suddenly dropped eighty pounds over the next

four months.

 

 

On Jan 20, 2004, at 5:32 PM, Teresa Hall wrote:

 

> Hi Todd-

>

> Yes, absolutely... I do believe that Acupuncture is helping to speed

> up her

> metabolism, and the herbs are helping to drain her excess dampness.

> Her

> Spleen is not doing its job of correct transformation and

> transportation.

> She has gotten off her diueretic medication, in addition when we first

> began

> working together she was taken viconden every day, for years. I

> educated

> her on how the vicodin was working to further slow down, her already

> compromised metabolic factor. On a scale of 1 to 10 her damp factor

> is like

> a 10. If I were to rate her degree of Spleen Qi xu, I would put

> that at a

> 10, as well. Her Spleen and stomach channel are incredibly painful

> when

> palpated. To me, she is very classical SpQi xu with severe damp

> accumulating.

[Guest guest]

, " Teresa Hall "

<Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote:

>

 

> compromised metabolic factor. On a scale of 1 to 10 her damp factor

is like

> a 10. If I were to rate her degree of Spleen Qi xu, I would put

that at a

> 10, as well. Her Spleen and stomach channel are incredibly painful

 

> color is pink. She always has allot of energy, and is the single

mother of

> three, works full time. Prior to seeing me she had not had a period

 

How do you reconcile that she always has a lot of energy, yet is rated

by you as the worst in terms of both dampness and SP qi xu?

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> Michael Broffman told me with my first obesity case 21 years ago

that it would take four full seasons to get results. He was right.

After four seasons, the patient suddenly dropped eighty pounds over

the next four months. >>>

 

 

Z'ev:

 

Did Broffman explain why the patient would take for 4 full seasons

to get results, rather than immediate gradual weight loss?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Michael didn't always explain everything, but having put this patient

on a program of diet, herbs, as well as acupuncture and moxa plus

exercise, I think it had to do with it taking all of the body systems

time over four seasons to strengthen and harmonize. Also, much of the

weight gain was due to the use of prednisone, which also caused this

patient to develop bleeding hemmerhoids, heavy periods, severe acne,

hair loss, and steroid psychosis.

 

 

On Jan 20, 2004, at 9:26 PM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> Z'ev:

>

> Did Broffman explain why the patient would take for 4 full seasons

> to get results, rather than immediate gradual weight loss?

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Good point. I didn't catch it in my first reading of the post.

 

 

On Jan 20, 2004, at 9:17 PM, bcataiji wrote:

 

> How do you reconcile that she always has a lot of energy, yet is rated

> by you as the worst in terms of both dampness and SP qi xu?

>

> Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Hi Brian-

 

I know that fatigue and low energy are one of the S/s of Sp Qi Xu. However,

currently she does not have this symptom. Actually, as the weight is coming

off she is reporting that she has even more energy. I am sure that the

longer I am in practice, I will have more cases to compare. Believe me, I

am taking good notes on all my patients... so that I can refer back to

later. If I were actually going to do a " scientific study " , with allot of

numerical values, then she would not be 10, because she does not have the

fatigue factor.

 

Teresa

 

 

 

> , " Teresa Hall "

> <Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote:

> >

>

> > compromised metabolic factor. On a scale of 1 to 10 her damp factor

> is like

> > a 10. If I were to rate her degree of Spleen Qi xu, I would put

> that at a

> > 10, as well. Her Spleen and stomach channel are incredibly painful

>

> > color is pink. She always has allot of energy, and is the single

> mother of

> > three, works full time. Prior to seeing me she had not had a period

>

> How do you reconcile that she always has a lot of energy, yet is rated

> by you as the worst in terms of both dampness and SP qi xu?

>

> Brian C. Allen

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think what Todd is referring to in his last post is that the Chinese

didn't treat obesity very much, and it isn't mentioned in the

literature very often.

>>>The statement was about successful lose of weight, and as Todd accurately

said the long term success is what matters. All type of programs work short

term. It sounds like the patient is feeling better and for now having many

benefits from the therapeutic setting. But as far as weight lets talk in a year

or two

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 7:06 PM +0000 1/20/04, wrote:

>With all due respect, I believe the protocol you describe would work without

>TCM.. no doubt regular reinforcement of thrice weekly visits is useful for

>psych support, but there is no evidence that thrice weekly acupuncture helps

>weight loss inthe long term.

--

 

 

What makes you think Theresa's program for her patient is not totally

TCM? Do you think TCM does not include lifestyle, dietary, and

exercise counselling?

 

Rory

--

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There is a Chinese TCM manual, translated into

English, with obesity treatments, including acupoints.

 

Would be happy to post this info.

 

Obese people in China are rare for a number of

reasons: the Chinese diet, with little emphasis on

diary and wheat, especially in south China, lack of

money to overspend and overindulge in food, and social

pressures to conform to social standards, especially

physical appearence.

 

Jack

 

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

> I think what Todd is referring to in his last post

> is that the Chinese

> didn't treat obesity very much, and it isn't

> mentioned in the

> literature very often.

> >>>The statement was about successful lose of

> weight, and as Todd accurately said the long term

> success is what matters. All type of programs work

> short term. It sounds like the patient is feeling

> better and for now having many benefits from the

> therapeutic setting. But as far as weight lets talk

> in a year or two

> Alon

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

Hotjobs: Enter the " Signing Bonus " Sweepstakes

http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./signingbonus

[Guest guest]

Not to mention, until recently, a lot of bicycle riding...

doug

 

, Jack Sweeney <mojavecowboy>

 

 

> Obese people in China are rare for a number of

> reasons: the Chinese diet, with little emphasis on

> diary and wheat, especially in south China, lack of

> money to overspend and overindulge in food, and social

> pressures to conform to social standards, especially

> physical appearence.

>

> Jack

[Guest guest]

Hi Jack-

 

I would like to see what you have to post on obesity.

 

Thanks,

Teresa

 

 

Teresa Hall, L.Ac, M.S, Q.M.E.

619-517-1188

-

" Jack Sweeney " <mojavecowboy

 

Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:09 PM

Re: atkins

 

 

> There is a Chinese TCM manual, translated into

> English, with obesity treatments, including acupoints.

>

> Would be happy to post this info.

>

> Obese people in China are rare for a number of

> reasons: the Chinese diet, with little emphasis on

> diary and wheat, especially in south China, lack of

> money to overspend and overindulge in food, and social

> pressures to conform to social standards, especially

> physical appearence.

>

> Jack

>

> --- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

> > I think what Todd is referring to in his last post

> > is that the Chinese

> > didn't treat obesity very much, and it isn't

> > mentioned in the

> > literature very often.

> > >>>The statement was about successful lose of

> > weight, and as Todd accurately said the long term

> > success is what matters. All type of programs work

> > short term. It sounds like the patient is feeling

> > better and for now having many benefits from the

> > therapeutic setting. But as far as weight lets talk

> > in a year or two

> > Alon

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> Hotjobs: Enter the " Signing Bonus " Sweepstakes

> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./signingbonus

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> This brings up a reasonable question too, has anybody had to treat

any

> side effects to the Atkins diet?

 

 

 

I am treating a patient for constipation. She has been on the Atkins diet for

only two weeks and her constipation, which has been a lifelong problem, has

gotten worse. I have gotten her to use psyllium seed husks, and with this and

acupuncture alone, it is easing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dinesh <dinesh5015 wrote:

 

Is Atkins diet good? If I am to beleive the news, it isn't. No, Atkins diet is not a healthy balance of nutrients. It is very stressful on the heart and kidneys. Do your research and you will find much on the issue. For more on Atkins and a great healthy way to feed your body go to www.drfuhrman.com Dr. Fuhrman is awesome.

Have a very good day....Sharon

[Guest guest]

I very much disagree with this response. I have been eating Atkins for

the last year, lost fifty pounds very healthfully. People who have

developed heart and kidney problems are not doing atkins correctly, as

presented in the books. They decide they don't need to eat their

vegetables, or eat all low carb style junk food - things which the

books do allow but only for an occasional treat, not a daily food

substitute.

Done properly Atkins is a very healthful diet. Dr. atkins developed the

diet FOR the heart patients he worked with - his training ws as a

cardiologist. The diet got them off their heart meds and prevented

need for surgery for many folks. It lowers colesterol - again, done

correctly. Folks do have kidney problems IF they don't drink enough

water with the diet - but, again, no problems if they eat the diet as

written. People think if they cut out the carbs they are doing atkins.

They think they can eat all the meat/protein they want. Not true, not

according to the books. I don't eat more meat or protein than before I

started Atkins. It is called low carb and not high protein, because

though the proportion of protein goes up when you stop the processed

carbs and limit other carbs to healthful levels, you don't increase the

amount of protein you are eating. I eat a huge raw salad every day for

lunch, and another with my dinner. I eat far more veggies than most

people I know, and no less than I used to eat. I do eat less fruit, but

don't exclude fruit. I will be able to have more fruit after I have

reached my goal weight and am on maintenance diet. Most research on

Atkins in last few ytears shows very positive results, cholesterol

lowered, weight loss more consistent, and no damaging side effects WHEN

DONE CORRECTLY - which one also has to say in terms of any diet. Many

folks who write negative reports on Atkins have never even read his

books, are basing their assumptions on what people commonly think about

Atkins, which is largely wrong. You need to read the books and follow

the guidelines, and then it is a very healthful diet. Everyone's body

is different, and some folks prefer other diets to this one, or find

they " fit " better to their tastes and habits. But you can't say someone

shouldn't eat an Atkins diet due to its not being healthful - not if you

have actually read the books and followed the instructions.

Joy

 

Mark Cole wrote:

 

>

>

> */Dinesh <dinesh5015/* wrote:

>

>

> Is Atkins diet good? If I am to beleive the news, it isn't. *No,

> Atkins diet is not a healthy balance of nutrients. It is very

> stressful on the heart and kidneys. Do your research and you will

> find much on the issue. For more on Atkins and a great healthy

> way to feed your body go to www.drfuhrman.com

> <http://www.drfuhrman.com> Dr. Fuhrman is awesome.*

>

> *Have a very good day....Sharon*

>

>

>

> «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»

>

> § - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §

>

> Subscribe:......... -

> To :.... -

>

> Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be

> news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult

> with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of

> treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.

> **COPYRIGHT NOTICE**

> In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,

> any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use

> without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest

> in receiving the included information for non-profit research and

> educational purposes only.

> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

>

>

>

> *

[Guest guest]

South Beach is lower fat and less offensive than Atkins.

 

For years, as I was in the fitness field, I chose a relatively

high protein very low fat diet but I still ate sensible carbs!

It was pivotal in leaning out my body and my health/labs

were always excellent.

 

I hate the Atkins diet from the perspective of being a

Health Care practitioner and from personal experience!

 

PORK RINDS for a snack?????? How healthy is that!!!!

 

Sincerely,

I love carbs,

Nori

 

In a message dated 9/4/2004 8:34:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, pgmr_64804 writes:

 

I agree that atkins is awful. It does not take much common sence to see that eating nothing but fat will hurt you.

 

Bill is in the hospital having to have a Quad bypass and they were bragging about him looking so good and that he has been on the south beach diet...South Beach is just atkins with lipstick on from what I understand.

 

I went on the all fat diets when I was younger and ballooned out bigger than ever and all these people at work that are on the all fat diets are busting out at the seams too.Mark Cole <me_c wrote:

 

 

-------------------------.ManifestingDynamicHealth! NEW!!!Quick daily email rocket booster words/energy to attractVital Health & Happiness that is yours for intending!ManifestingDynamicHealth/-------------------------.

[Guest guest]

I agree that atkins is awful. It does not take much common sence to see that eating nothing but fat will hurt you.

 

Bill is in the hospital having to have a Quad bypass and they were bragging about him looking so good and that he has been on the south beach diet...South Beach is just atkins with lipstick on from what I understand.

 

I went on the all fat diets when I was younger and ballooned out bigger than ever and all these people at work that are on the all fat diets are busting out at the seams too.Mark Cole <me_c wrote:

 

Dinesh <dinesh5015 wrote:

Is Atkins diet good? If I am to beleive the news, it isn't. No, Atkins diet is not a healthy balance of nutrients. It is very stressful on the heart and kidneys. Do your research and you will find much on the issue. For more on Atkins and a great healthy way to feed your body go to www.drfuhrman.com Dr. Fuhrman is awesome.

Have a very good day....Sharon«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

[Guest guest]

My Mom and I did Atkins back in the 70's where we tested for

Ketones in our urine and everything. I will never forget:

The More Ketones, the Worse I felt! (and there is good medical

reason for this!)

 

Lots of the initial weight loss is water weight...from all the protein.

It is deceiving and disappointing and I'm sure send folks into

depressive carb eating frenzies!!!

 

There is no magic answer.

The Answer is good nutrition, decreased calories and exercise.

With this we get to KEEP the results we achieve!

 

Nori Slater RN

 

In a message dated 9/4/2004 1:25:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, pgmr_64804 writes:

 

My mom was on it and I guess loosing while she could stick to the program. I saw her dip her pork rinds in mayo and eat cans of tuna dripping in the grease with mayo.

 

My cousin went on atkins and lost a little and then gained so much after she went off that she was telling her friends to just say she was pregnant if people made any comments about her weight.

 

The ladies at work lost a little while they were on it, but then got bigger than ever once they got off, and it messed up their colons and everything else too.

 

 

-------------------------.ManifestingDynamicHealth! NEW!!!Quick daily email rocket booster words/energy to attractVital Health & Happiness that is yours for intending!ManifestingDynamicHealth/-------------------------.

[Guest guest]

My mom was on it and I guess loosing while she could stick to the program. I saw her dip her pork rinds in mayo and eat cans of tuna dripping in the grease with mayo.

 

My cousin went on atkins and lost a little and then gained so much after she went off that she was telling her friends to just say she was pregnant if people made any comments about her weight.

 

The ladies at work lost a little while they were on it, but then got bigger than ever once they got off, and it messed up their colons and everything else too.NoriSlater wrote:

 

 

 

 

South Beach is lower fat and less offensive than Atkins.

 

For years, as I was in the fitness field, I chose a relatively

high protein very low fat diet but I still ate sensible carbs!

It was pivotal in leaning out my body and my health/labs

were always excellent.

 

I hate the Atkins diet from the perspective of being a

Health Care practitioner and from personal experience!

 

PORK RINDS for a snack?????? How healthy is that!!!!

 

Sincerely,

I love carbs,

Nori

 

In a message dated 9/4/2004 8:34:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, pgmr_64804 writes:

 

I agree that atkins is awful. It does not take much common sence to see that eating nothing but fat will hurt you.

 

Bill is in the hospital having to have a Quad bypass and they were bragging about him looking so good and that he has been on the south beach diet...South Beach is just atkins with lipstick on from what I understand.

 

I went on the all fat diets when I was younger and ballooned out bigger than ever and all these people at work that are on the all fat diets are busting out at the seams too.Mark Cole <me_c wrote:

 

 

-------------------------.ManifestingDynamicHealth! NEW!!!Quick daily email rocket booster words/energy to attractVital Health & Happiness that is yours for intending!ManifestingDynamicHealth/-------------------------.«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :....

- Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml