cupping

[Guest guest]

" If the 'sha' is there it will be released within 5 seconds. "

 

thanks rich and richard and everyone for helping me out. I know

exactly what you mean about the body showing straight away the areas

of stagnation - it's most obvious when sliding cups over areas and

seeing the red or purple come up immediately in some parts while

others just go pink for a second.

 

I'm interested in that quote at the top though. i have very little

experience with cups at this stage as we were taught how to apply

them in my CM course but never used them in clinic...anyway I would

have thought that leaving them on for longer would more effectively

draw out stagnation from deeper within the body. Yesterday I used

strong sliding cupping on my friend's shoulder, when I started it

was hard all over and after ten or 15 minutes the whole lot had

softened right up, leaving a few small lumps that I was able to

clear with tuina techniques.

 

Now I'm basically experimenting at this stage: I could easily relax

and clear up her shoulder with tuina but I felt like using cups for

fun and to gain experience, but this is using cups on a very

physical or mechanical level....leaving them on for 5 seconds would

not have this effect of softening up the area, but you said

something about a 'sha' (what is a 'sha'?).

 

Anyway I don't completely understand but I am most interested!

please explain further what you think is happening a) when I whack

some cups on and slide them all over the tough knotty bits until

they're soft, and b) when you use your obviously more refined and

subtle method.

 

thanks!

 

Simon

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

I'm coming into this discussion late

 

But I use cupping often and always with stroking

 

I have fantastic results with muscular spasm

 

db

 

_____

 

wackname [wackname]

Friday, October 08, 2004 8:28 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: cupping

 

 

 

" If the 'sha' is there it will be released within 5 seconds. "

 

thanks rich and richard and everyone for helping me out. I know

exactly what you mean about the body showing straight away the areas

of stagnation - it's most obvious when sliding cups over areas and

seeing the red or purple come up immediately in some parts while

others just go pink for a second.

 

I'm interested in that quote at the top though. i have very little

experience with cups at this stage as we were taught how to apply

them in my CM course but never used them in clinic...anyway I would

have thought that leaving them on for longer would more effectively

draw out stagnation from deeper within the body. Yesterday I used

strong sliding cupping on my friend's shoulder, when I started it

was hard all over and after ten or 15 minutes the whole lot had

softened right up, leaving a few small lumps that I was able to

clear with tuina techniques.

 

Now I'm basically experimenting at this stage: I could easily relax

and clear up her shoulder with tuina but I felt like using cups for

fun and to gain experience, but this is using cups on a very

physical or mechanical level....leaving them on for 5 seconds would

not have this effect of softening up the area, but you said

something about a 'sha' (what is a 'sha'?).

 

Anyway I don't completely understand but I am most interested!

please explain further what you think is happening a) when I whack

some cups on and slide them all over the tough knotty bits until

they're soft, and b) when you use your obviously more refined and

subtle method.

 

thanks!

 

Simon

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Keijobad,

 

Thank you for sharing this very interesting insights with me. It

should be interesting to see how well they compare to my own experiences.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad "

<aryaone@e...> wrote:

>

> At cupping I found the hue left behind a great indicator to what was

> happening in the

> underlying tissue and the organs in general.

>

> Some findings which may interest folk:

>

> pale purple - Cold, complicated with either Settled, to Incipient

> Stagnation.

> uniformly purple - Stagnation settled in

> blotched purple - Stagnation in part with lack of Blood

> blotched purple with red - Stagnation in part with Heat

> blotched purple with yellow - Stagnation in LV and ST Oppressed

> blotched purple with red papillae - Stagnation in LV about to become

Fire

> blackish hue - Settled Cold

> black with red interspersed - Cold vying with Heat

>

>

[Guest guest]

Simon

 

Xue Sha has been translated as 'millet or sand--size blood particles' - it

would be helpful if any language translation proficient practitioners would care

to comment on definitions.

 

Stagnation can lodge/block within SanJiao from major areas such as the actual

Jiao compartments; in the Jing-Luo; to the smallest crevices as in CouLi. I

do know that the small spaces between the fascia/connective tissue fibers which

wind up with...... for various reasons....... stagnation including XueSha.

Whether the correct terminology for this location would be correctly termed

'CouLi' ...again maybe the translation experts can add a confirmation or

correction.

 

There are many permutations of combination modalities. As stated....GuaSha

with needles (before, during or after), BaGuan (cupping) with needles (before,

during or after), Bleeding with cups, fire cups, dragging cups, agressive

GuaSha etc etc.

 

It is my experience (there are always exceptions) that to leave a cup on the

body for twenty minutes (assuming it has a strong amount of suction) pulls way

too much surrounding stagnation to the cupped area. Sliding cups if

aggressive as with aggessive GuaSha will spread stagnation to areas which were

not

stagnated to begin with. For me.....as my preference.....I chose NOT to be

agressive in these ways by dragging any stagnation in any direction EXCEPT

upward.

The shortest distance between two locations is a straight line. The intent or

should I say 'my intent' is to move by pulling a localized amount of stagnation

directly in an upward fashion out of the deeper tissue and out of the fascia

so as to afford a more direct elimination by the lymph system.

 

The cupping you see in the recently uploaded sciatic photos was both for the

patient and myself......nowhere near as aggressive as typical GuaSha

treatments we SEE as shown in some books. I'll repeat for clarity......that not

one of

those stagnation releases required more than 5 seconds. Of course I did

overlap areas/edges of releases and at times I had to repeat certain areas that

had

not yet realeased.

 

As for you question regarding time.....I would answer that within the

confines of the suction cup system....if you have a decent hand suction pump you

can

exact the needed upwards pressure in 5 seconds versus leaving a fire cup on

for twenty minutes. So leaving cups on for longer does not as a given draw more

deeper stagnation unless as I stated that the cup is not extracting a great

amount of pressure. Secondly.......if one is not careful and there is excessive

pressure over to long of a time frame...... too much stagnation can be brought

to the surface and break the integrity of the skin thereby potentially

opening up and exposing the patient to infection.

 

Moderation, sensitivity and the most effective treatment is an imporant

component.

 

Some local colleagues modify and use multiple cups - they say it is more time

effective. That might be so....but one loses to some degree a focused

awareness. I choose not to use more than one cup and move it from place to

place....always in an ongoing biofeedback way both in diagnostic and treatment

modes.

Meaning that each time I move the cup, each time I pump the cup, and release it

I am paying a world of attention to both diagnostic indications and results.

Whacking cups around the body or even too agressive sliding cups I consider

somewhat willy-nilly or haphazard. Thats just my opinion and preferance as to

what to do and what not to do. Thats why I choose by my experience NOT to do

agressive GuaSha.

 

WHERE does 'sha' locate and what method is better suited to release the

blockage? When 'sha' is stuck very specifically and primarily in the fascia -

THEN

focused GuaSha is the best treatment.... used to strip the particles. A

fascial release via GuaSha is painful as if someone was scraping the skin

right-off

your body. When diagnostics show that the 'sha' is deeper......then short and

a decent forced cupping accomplishes the task - directly, simply, without a

lot of discomfort to the patient and in the shortest amount of time.

 

Don;t be fooled by thinking that you are only using cups in a mechanical or

local way. What i am trying to get across is that even thought there are local

benefits.....whenever we employ stronger Yin style treatments we are entering

the Fluid dynamics which acupuncture needles only indirectly affect. A case in

point....a 28 y/o married woman came to see me for so-called inability to

conceive. She had been taking birth control pills for 12 years and stopped the

year before she visited. She had tried with others (MDs, etc) but could not

regain menstruation. She was liver type bodywise (tall, lanky, tense tendons,

leaning toward anxiety). On intake I noticed clogged sinues to which she almost

angrily reply that she had allergies and was taking meds which didn;t work. I

responded with...that that was because she had NO allergies - only weak, blocked

and dysfunctional tissue(s). After intake, tongue, pulse etc....I procceded

to work on her neck, upper back and shoulders with BaGuaFa. For her it was nice

that her husband watched the complete 'getle' treatment while seeing with his

own eyes the huge purple sludge arising behind her heart and lungs on the

left side of her body. I could hear her breathing changing but didn;t say

anything till finished wherein I asked her to take a deep breath. She screeched

out...my sinuses are open and not clogged...to which I again replied....I told

you

you did not have allergies. She lived about 1 hour away from my office and I

did not have all the herbs for her formula....so I told her I would mail them

and she could return after taking them for several weeks. One week later I

mailed her the formula and didn;t hear from her for almost 5 weeks when she

called

to refer a friend. I inquired if she received and was taking the herbs to

which she replied....she received them but never touched them. She further

explained that exactly one week AFTER the BaGuaFa treatment....she conceived

according to the calculations of her OB/GYN even though she had not regained any

menstruation.

 

So what happened?

 

I have thought much about this over the last few years and came to what I

consider a reasonable combination of conclusions. First of all.....BaGuaFa

releases tremendous amounts of nerve compressing and relaxes the individual in

the

moment and for usually weeks after. At the same time......her sinuses were

cleared. Both these results can make for much more relaxed sex.

 

Secondly......The Wei, Qi, Xue, Jin-Ye fluid system travelling through the

SanJia system is as the ancient writings really say (Steve Clavey has quoted

several in his book on Fluid Physiology/Pathology) along with what Dr. Alfred

Pfschinger also stated in his treatise on the Extra Cellular Matrix (system of

fascia and interstitual fluid ++++).........this combination is an

immune-defense system, a repair system AND a communication system. When working

in the

fluid dynamics it is MUCH more effective (globally) for most conditions. Many

might disagree and I am NOT saying that acupuncture needling is useless but

again

as Clavey quotes the ancients.....the use of needles ONLY indirectly effects

for exaple pathogenic fluid imbalances. The BaGuaFa treatment freed the Wei,

Qi, Xue and Jin travelling up the back and down the front thereby BETTER

servicing all zang-fu and tissue downline. Who is to really say? Experientially

by

working with these Yin treatment modalities there appears to be a substantial

greater and quicker degree of patients recovering from their flow imbalances to

homeodynamics.

 

So I ask....WHY use one treatment modality to an excess when there are other

modalities possibly much more efficient for the tasks at hand? Use what is

appropriate. There are times when acupuncture and electro acupuncture the

treatment of choice.

 

Part of the answer as to why the propensity as it exists.....is that we have

been brain washed by those who don't really know any better and at the same

time brain washed by the system-controllers who want to keep us cornered into

ONLY needle usage which THEY claim to be the owners-of. Needles are claimed by

the allopaths in the US via the FDA lock-down in 1971 (circa) belonging to

'MEDICAL' meaning allopathic medical. At first investigational-medical and it

took

all the way till 1996 when they acquiesed and at the same time further

locked-it-down into classifying acupuncture needles as 'Class II medical

devices'.

Are we getting the picture? I know some do...but the majority do not.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/9/2004 4:27:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

wackname writes:

 

" If the 'sha' is there it will be released within 5 seconds. "

 

thanks rich and richard and everyone for helping me out. I know

exactly what you mean about the body showing straight away the areas

of stagnation - it's most obvious when sliding cups over areas and

seeing the red or purple come up immediately in some parts while

others just go pink for a second.

 

I'm interested in that quote at the top though. i have very little

experience with cups at this stage as we were taught how to apply

them in my CM course but never used them in clinic...anyway I would

have thought that leaving them on for longer would more effectively

draw out stagnation from deeper within the body. Yesterday I used

strong sliding cupping on my friend's shoulder, when I started it

was hard all over and after ten or 15 minutes the whole lot had

softened right up, leaving a few small lumps that I was able to

clear with tuina techniques.

 

Now I'm basically experimenting at this stage: I could easily relax

and clear up her shoulder with tuina but I felt like using cups for

fun and to gain experience, but this is using cups on a very

physical or mechanical level....leaving them on for 5 seconds would

not have this effect of softening up the area, but you said

something about a 'sha' (what is a 'sha'?).

 

Anyway I don't completely understand but I am most interested!

please explain further what you think is happening a) when I whack

some cups on and slide them all over the tough knotty bits until

they're soft, and b) when you use your obviously more refined and

subtle method.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Common sense which is 'profound and absolutely brilliant' should always

prevail yet it cannot be accessed unless we are paying close attention.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 10/10/2004 1:11:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

aryaone writes:

 

Absolutely brilliant!

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Simon,

>

> " If the 'sha' is there it will be released within 5 seconds. "

>

> I'm interested in that quote at the top though. i have very little

> experience with cups at this stage as we were taught how to apply

> them in my CM course but never used them in clinic...anyway

 

I also have very little experience, which is why I am very interested

in the comments on this subject. The techniques described are

different from the ones I have learned. I hope to undestand them

better and adopt them.

 

>I would

> have thought that leaving them on for longer would more effectively

> draw out stagnation from deeper within the body.

 

Yes, this is similar to what I have been taught. My teacher has 30

years experience in his particular technique. But I am thinking that

there may be advantages to Richard's techniques.

 

Yesterday I used

> strong sliding cupping on my friend's shoulder, when I started it

> was hard all over and after ten or 15 minutes the whole lot had

> softened right up, leaving a few small lumps that I was able to

> clear with tuina techniques.

 

I have been taught to leave the cups no more than 3 minues in soft

(yin) areas because they may leave permanent marks. No more than 5

minutes in other areas. This is suppose to be sufficient.

>

> Now I'm basically experimenting at this stage: I could easily relax

> and clear up her shoulder with tuina but I felt like using cups for

> fun and to gain experience, but this is using cups on a very

> physical or mechanical level....leaving them on for 5 seconds would

> not have this effect of softening up the area, but you said

> something about a 'sha' (what is a 'sha'?).

 

 

I have been taught to first use tuina and possibly qua sha. If the

blockage is deep, then use cupping for no more than the times I have

indicated above. This is for the reasons that you explain.

>

> Anyway I don't completely understand but I am most interested!

 

So am I. The pictures that Richard put up were very interesting.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/7/2004 7:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

aryaone writes:

Never thought to see the day when so much is written about the simplest

application

in TCM which is cupping.

The simplest is the most obvious yet because of it's place its the most often

ignored.

I like the analogy of the stuck water pipe the best; release the block and

the hydraulics know what to do.

One finding though, wonder if it is common:

The yang surfaces perform better than yin at cupping, the yang of the torso

better than that of limbs, the yang of chest better than that of lower back.

Depends. In a general way this is true as the lower back is also always

weaker. At times....the ow back as seen in the sciatic patient

photos.....releases

quite as much if not more. That gentlemn's upper back at this point in time

showed zip.

Another neat approach is cupping the points of the Venerable Dr. Huato, if

that is the correct name.

As you can see from just a few of the photos uploaded...the use of HuaTuo

points are most common. One can clear the majority of the so-called allergies in

one treatment of cupping versus 40+ treatments in some other dog'n pony show

therapies.

Have always checked for a wound, after the clean up. Not one, skin as smooth

and whole as the rest of the back.

That's when one is sensitive and is aware of the power and efficacy of

simplicity.

 

I often hear that these techniques are damaging and causing the 'xue sha'.

Couldn;t be farther from the truth. Then again it all depends on whether one is

paying attention to the forces and conditions.

 

Richard

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Timing the Cups:

 

Taking for granted the more obvious arbitrators such as skin condition, age,

season, location on body, age and acceptive aptitude, here are some which

have

proven significant over the years:

 

If dealing with Excess Heat - shoot for a very red color.

If dealing with Excess Heat Toxic - first bleed and then cup, remove

quickly.

If dealing with Stagnation:

a. go for shades of purple for a few sessions.

b. wait till a light Red arrives, then let go.

 

If area persistently Pale - pop the 7 Star on it till light bleeding, then

cup.

 

" If you begin with Red in a general sense - work till properly Pink.

If you begin with Pale in a general sense - work till properly Red.

If you begin with Black in a general sense - work till properly Pale.

If you begin with Purple in a general sense - work till properly Whitish. "

 

" If you find a multicolored, serrated blotch, treat as suspicious, stay away

and refer.

 

If cups on lower torso show Red and on upper, Pale - something is seriously

wrong.

 

In this manner one may come across 25 times 25 variations, in the

theoretical sense, but just

about a dozen, in the practical sense. "

 

[From Cuppin' for Health. Lectures, Dr. Holmes Keikobad, excerpts in

quotes Courtesy of TruSelf Inc. 2000]

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Richard:

> Some local colleagues modify and use multiple cups - they say it is more

> time

> effective. That might be so....but one loses to some degree a focused

> awareness. I choose not to use more than one cup and move it from place to

> place....always in an ongoing biofeedback way both in diagnostic and

> treatment modes.

> Meaning that each time I move the cup, each time I pump the cup, and

> release it

> I am paying a world of attention to both diagnostic indications and

> results.

> Whacking cups around the body or even too agressive sliding cups I

> consider

> somewhat willy-nilly or haphazard. Thats just my opinion and preferance as

> to

> what to do and what not to do. Thats why I choose by my experience NOT to

> do

> agressive GuaSha.

>

>

 

Absolutely brilliant!

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Thanks again. This is great, like having a group of teachers around

all the time....I like the different methods and philosophies that

come up as well.

 

I think I'm just about out of questions on this topic for now. well of

course I've got a few but I reckon I'll just play around with

different approaches and see what happens.

 

Ok one last question: I have a " patient " (I'm not in a clinical

practice so everyone I treat is either family, friend or friend of

friend) who is 56, female and has serious lower back and sciatic

problems. Subluxation of the lower three lumbar vertebrae, severe bone

density degeneration, both hip joints and knees are weak and painful.

Pulse is deep, faint, imperceptible (to me) in the cun positions.

 

Massage is very helpful in treating the symptoms of this fairly severe

kidney deficiency, I'd like to give cupping a go but she's so tired I

don't want to weaken her further. Obviously aggressive, sliding

cupping would be too much, but would quick cupping - 5 seconds - all

over the affected areas still have this weakening affect?

 

Obviously this is a case where trial and error is not OK!

 

Simon

[Guest guest]

Simon

 

If massage has been helpful then it indicates (without seeing the person)

that gentle GuaSha or gentle Cupping should give additional relief.

 

Besides applying a gentle application....it would be prudent to work for very

short periods with the apparent Kidney deficiency. That means for

example.....only 1 cup placement for 5 second treatment and then see how her

energy is

affected for that day into the next day. Then re-evaluate for another single

placement within 1-2 days. Or maybe only use QiSha without any cupping which

also

goes a little deeper than massage. Even at this level where the treatment

seemingly is appropriate....trial and error on a subtle level is still valid.

Just NOT trial and error aggresively.

 

Richard

 

 

Ok one last question: I have a " patient " (I'm not in a clinical

practice so everyone I treat is either family, friend or friend of

friend) who is 56, female and has serious lower back and sciatic

problems. Subluxation of the lower three lumbar vertebrae, severe bone

density degeneration, both hip joints and knees are weak and painful.

Pulse is deep, faint, imperceptible (to me) in the cun positions.

 

Massage is very helpful in treating the symptoms of this fairly severe

kidney deficiency, I'd like to give cupping a go but she's so tired I

don't want to weaken her further. Obviously aggressive, sliding

cupping would be too much, but would quick cupping - 5 seconds - all

over the affected areas still have this weakening affect?

 

Obviously this is a case where trial and error is not OK!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sharon

 

Been using the pump suction system for 8-10 years and yes.....you can easily

vary the intensity.

 

There is nothing better.

 

Richard

 

 

 

hi all

Dislike the idea of using fire to activate suction whilst cupping and

have noticed a small pump that connects to special cups to manually

achieve suction. I am assuming you can vary intensity of the suction

as well. Any comments?? Thanks Sharon

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Brian

 

There is NO need to do running cups with this method. As a matter of FACT by

using the suction cup method....all one needs do is to lift the cup and simply

re-suction it to the next location. Maybe time consuming but after thousands

of treatments this way.....I haven;t seen anything better.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 2/18/2005 3:27:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mischievous00 writes:

 

Are you able to do running cupping with these types of cups as you can with

oil and the glass cups.

Brian

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The suction cups are great, especially in that you can add suction to a cup that

starts to come loose. The one downside is for those who may be doing bleeding

techniques with suction. I don't do this myself but know some Korean

acupuncturists who do. Because the suction cups have a rubber nipple to them you

can't autoclave them for reuse as should be done if using them in bleeding

techniques. Of course, most don't utilize this technique and so cleaning cups

with an antiseptic solution would be fine. - Matt Bauer

-

sharon391362

Chinese Medicine

Friday, February 18, 2005 10:39 AM

cupping

 

 

 

hi all

Dislike the idea of using fire to activate suction whilst cupping and

have noticed a small pump that connects to special cups to manually

achieve suction. I am assuming you can vary intensity of the suction

as well. Any comments?? Thanks Sharon

 

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click

on this link

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Are you able to do running cupping with these types of cups as you can with oil

and the glass cups.

Brian

 

acudoc11 wrote:

 

Sharon

 

Been using the pump suction system for 8-10 years and yes.....you can easily

vary the intensity.

 

There is nothing better.

 

Richard

 

 

 

hi all

Dislike the idea of using fire to activate suction whilst cupping and

have noticed a small pump that connects to special cups to manually

achieve suction. I am assuming you can vary intensity of the suction

as well. Any comments?? Thanks Sharon

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

sharon391362 wrote:

 

>hi all

>Dislike the idea of using fire to activate suction whilst cupping and

>have noticed a small pump that connects to special cups to manually

>achieve suction. I am assuming you can vary intensity of the suction

>as well. Any comments?? Thanks Sharon

>

>

>Hi Sharon,

>

I have used the glass cups for 10 years, and have only in the last year,

bought some plastic, hand pump system from America through Acuneeds.

I have found that the plastic ones are very good for small areas such as

back of hands, and it is true that you have greater control of the

level of suction, though I never really found the fire cups to be too

difficult to control.

The down side, as I experience it, of using the plastic suction variety,

is that the edges of them are not nearly as smooth as the glass, and

therefore my clients report much more discomfort using them, even after

i have adjusted the pressure to minimum. I have therefore, not

attempted to use sliding cupping with these, as I often use with the

glass ones.

I now only use the plastic on my own shoulder and neck (most useful),

and on smaller areas of my clients.

I remember seeing some chinese glass suction varieties some years back,

but have not seen them since them?

Best Wishes

Anita

 

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.0.0 - Release 2/18/2005

[Guest guest]

The down side, as I experience it, of using the plastic suction variety,

is that the edges of them are not nearly as smooth as the glass,

>>>The other downside is that when not using a flame there is no thermal effect

to cupping

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Matt,

 

I find it hard to understand why the use of a bleeding technique

makes it necessary to autoclave the cups. It would seem to me that

the risks of cross-infection are very similar whether you bleed or

just cup over a normally inserted needle.

 

I also find it hard to believe that antiseptic swab is really

sufficient for basic cupping, ie with no needling at all. While

cupping I often observe a quite thick 'haze' within the cup. Surely

it is possible for bacteria, viruses or other material to transport

from the surface of the cup to the gasesous phase and thence to the

surface of the skin and, depending on the individual, to penetrate

into the patient?

 

Any thoughts?

 

David Gordon

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer "

<acu.guy@g...> wrote:

> The suction cups are great, especially in that you can add suction

to a cup that starts to come loose. The one downside is for those who

may be doing bleeding techniques with suction. I don't do this myself

but know some Korean acupuncturists who do. Because the suction cups

have a rubber nipple to them you can't autoclave them for reuse as

should be done if using them in bleeding techniques. Of course, most

don't utilize this technique and so cleaning cups with an antiseptic

solution would be fine. - Matt Bauer

[Guest guest]

makes it necessary to autoclave the cups

>>>>>Its much easier to use commercially available solutions. In just 30 sec

contact they can kill even HIV and Hep C.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

David,

 

First, I would never recommend " antiseptic swab " , if that means a simple rubbing

of the inside of the cups with a antiseptic-soaked material. I use very hot

water to thoroughly immerse the cups and wash with antiseptic soap and rinse

several times. Your point about cupping over an inserted needle is valid, I

think. That would increase the risk of cross infection. As far as the " thick

haze " you have observed from cupping without breaking the skin in any way - I

don't know what to tell you. I know of no research that has been done to analyze

what that haze contains. I suspect it is nothing more than evaporative moisture

like one can see at times if one holds one's hand very near a shinny surface.

The haze you mention most likely would not contain bacteria or even viruses as

those that can be excreted from sweat or salivary glands, tear ducts, etc. But

as I said, that is just a guess on my part. I have never heard anyone suggest

all cups should be autoclaved or made aseptic after every and any use. I don't

know how bamboo or even plastic cups would hold up to that. An interesting

question though. - Matt Bauer

-

David Gordon

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, February 19, 2005 1:22 AM

Re: cupping

 

 

 

Matt,

 

I find it hard to understand why the use of a bleeding technique

makes it necessary to autoclave the cups. It would seem to me that

the risks of cross-infection are very similar whether you bleed or

just cup over a normally inserted needle.

 

I also find it hard to believe that antiseptic swab is really

sufficient for basic cupping, ie with no needling at all. While

cupping I often observe a quite thick 'haze' within the cup. Surely

it is possible for bacteria, viruses or other material to transport

from the surface of the cup to the gasesous phase and thence to the

surface of the skin and, depending on the individual, to penetrate

into the patient?

 

Any thoughts?

 

David Gordon

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Matt Bauer "

<acu.guy@g...> wrote:

> The suction cups are great, especially in that you can add suction

to a cup that starts to come loose. The one downside is for those who

may be doing bleeding techniques with suction. I don't do this myself

but know some Korean acupuncturists who do. Because the suction cups

have a rubber nipple to them you can't autoclave them for reuse as

should be done if using them in bleeding techniques. Of course, most

don't utilize this technique and so cleaning cups with an antiseptic

solution would be fine. - Matt Bauer

 

 

 

 

 

 

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accordingly.

 

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click

on this link

 

 

[Guest guest]

I use very hot water to thoroughly immerse the cups and wash with antiseptic

soap and rinse several times.

>>>>Depending on the antiseptic soap it is probably safe but legally not

sufficient.There are special solutions made for instrument sterilization. As i

said before some of these will kill even HIV and Hep C in 30 seconds. Their

cheep and you can get them from any surgical supply hours

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon - when I spoke of washing my cups, I was not referring to using cups for

bleeding or even needling cupping. The solutions you referred to are great, but

if they are to be used for sterilization they must be used carefully, with

appropriate mechanical washing before, proper soaking time, etc. - Matt Bauer

-

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, February 19, 2005 3:50 PM

Re: Re: cupping

 

 

I use very hot water to thoroughly immerse the cups and wash with antiseptic

soap and rinse several times.

>>>>Depending on the antiseptic soap it is probably safe but legally not

sufficient.There are special solutions made for instrument sterilization. As i

said before some of these will kill even HIV and Hep C in 30 seconds. Their

cheep and you can get them from any surgical supply hours

 

 

[Guest guest]

Soap can tend to make the valves stick. Here in Australia we are advised

after bleeding that it is acceptable to wipe and then soak the cups in a

hospital grade bleach solution for approx 20 minutes and then rinsed well in

running water. If left in bleach too long the values are damaged.

Best wishes,

 

 

 

[alonmarcus]

Sunday, 20 February 2005 9:51 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: cupping

 

 

I use very hot water to thoroughly immerse the cups and wash with

antiseptic soap and rinse several times.

>>>>Depending on the antiseptic soap it is probably safe but legally not

sufficient.There are special solutions made for instrument sterilization. As

i said before some of these will kill even HIV and Hep C in 30 seconds.

Their cheep and you can get them from any surgical supply hours

 

 

[Guest guest]

Don`t worry the bleeding. There is a special

Acupuncture called Bleeding Acupuncture. It use cup

draw the blood out on the Acupuncture point. The

treatment can get a lot of effecttive that the common

Acupuncture can not do.

 

 

 

 

--- Stephen Lamade <lhommedieu µÄÕýÎÄ£º

> The glass suction cups are great but if you are

> bleeding the patient you

> need to make sure that the blood does not get into

> the rubber gasket on the

> top of the cup. This can get very difficult to

> clean out so when you take

> the cup off do not invert it in this case. Clean

> immediately.

>

> Fire cups are o.k. but I prefer to use larger sizes

> for this. For

> small/medicum cups you can use a small piece of thin

> paper twisted like a

> Hersey's Kiss around a dime. Place the " trivet " on

> the area to be cupped

> and light the top; place the cup immediately on top

> and the flame will

> extinguish before it goes down too low. This

> creates a nice suction that is

> generally stronger than if you use the " alchohol

> swab/forceps " method.

>

> Best,

>

> Steve Lamade

>

>

>

 

_______

 

ÏÓÓÊÏä̫С£¿ÑÅ»¢µçÓÊ×ÔÖúÀ©ÈÝ£¡

http://cn.rd./mail_cn/tag/10m/*http://cn.mail./event/10m.html

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

I do cupping & bleeding in my clinic on a regular basis, and i have seen

remarkable results in my patients. It is completely safe and it has no side

effects, but have to worry about the people with high blood sugar reading

and the one who are on blood thinning medications.

 

It does increase the qi level in the meridians from there the blood

circulation will increase many symptoms will dissapear, mostly i focus on

(T8 - thorasic vertebra) between BL-17 & BL-18.

 

I use more than one incision / needle puncturing with several blood letting

points. (i.e. two rounds of cupping)

 

 

Khaled

 

 

 

-

" Cfli " <changfeng2

<Chinese Medicine >

Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:10 AM

Re: cupping

 

 

>

> Don`t worry the bleeding. There is a special

> Acupuncture called Bleeding Acupuncture. It use cup

> draw the blood out on the Acupuncture point. The

> treatment can get a lot of effecttive that the common

> Acupuncture can not do.

>

>

>

>

> --- Stephen Lamade <lhommedieu µÄÕýÎÄ£º

>> The glass suction cups are great but if you are

>> bleeding the patient you

>> need to make sure that the blood does not get into

>> the rubber gasket on the

>> top of the cup. This can get very difficult to

>> clean out so when you take

>> the cup off do not invert it in this case. Clean

>> immediately.

>>

>> Fire cups are o.k. but I prefer to use larger sizes

>> for this. For

>> small/medicum cups you can use a small piece of thin

>> paper twisted like a

>> Hersey's Kiss around a dime. Place the " trivet " on

>> the area to be cupped

>> and light the top; place the cup immediately on top

>> and the flame will

>> extinguish before it goes down too low. This

>> creates a nice suction that is

>> generally stronger than if you use the " alchohol

>> swab/forceps " method.

>>

>> Best,

>>

>> Steve Lamade

>>

>>

>>

>

> _______

>

> ÏÓÓÊÏä̫С£¿ÑÅ»¢µçÓÊ×ÔÖúÀ©ÈÝ£¡

>

http://cn.rd./mail_cn/tag/10m/*http://cn.mail./event/10m.html

>

>

>

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics,

>

>