Digest Number 820

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/23/01 2:17:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

 

 

I am not that concerned about the chiropractic lobby. should I be?

 

 

Yes - they can be more powerful that AMA in certain states................Will

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

 

>

> The Koreans, Japanese, French, and others have developed their own

> methods of acupuncture, but so far as herbs is concerned the Koreans

> practice very much like the Chinese, and the Japanese Kampo system is

> based exclusively on classic Chinese texts.

 

Doesn't kanpo actually mean " chinese medicine " ? Excuse my ignorance if

I am wrong. Whatever variations have been made, it is still chinese

medicine, isn't it? Or is it? Is NAET chinese medicine or even east

asian medicine. What about certain modern french styles which are

influenced by french orthomolecular medicine? this really is a tricky

issue. the only thing I am sure of is that the asian-american

community opposes the use of the term oriental as pejorative,

regardless of what westerners think about that. TEAM is the term used

by all departments of medical anthropology that study this body of

information. It encompasses japanese, vietnamese, chinese and korean

styles. that covers most of us. If you are practicing french or

american styles that have abandoned east asian medical concepts, like

NAET, just call it NAET. I don't want to be professionally associated

with these styles anyway, valid as they may be.

 

Personally its an easy one for me. I practice chinese medicine.

 

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

-

>

>

> > Doesn't kanpo actually mean " chinese medicine " ?

>

> It means Han medicine........So in a sense, yes.......Will

 

I wonder what koreans and vietnamese call their versions of CM.

Because if they all make reference to china as the source, then I think

we can follow their lead.

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> Yes, it does. " Medicine of the Han (people)'.

>

> I also think the Korean is the same. (Someone correct me if I am wrong).

>

 

come to think of it, I work with a vietnamese fellow who reads lots of

vietnamese books on herbal medicine. they refer to the professional

tradition as Chinese medicine in their titles. Fact is whatever the

cultural animosities, all forms of east asian medicine are rooted in

china, the nei jing, nan jing and SHL, all chinese books.

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, it does. " Medicine of the Han (people)'.

 

I also think the Korean is the same. (Someone correct me if I am wrong).

 

 

 

 

On Sunday, December 23, 2001, at 09:34 AM, 1 wrote:

 

>

> Doesn't kanpo actually mean " chinese medicine " ?  Excuse my ignorance if

> I am wrong. 

[Guest guest]

At 5:34 PM +0000 12/23/01, 1 wrote:

>

>TEAM is the term used

>by all departments of medical anthropology that study this body of

>information. It encompasses japanese, vietnamese, chinese and korean

>styles. that covers most of us.

--

But TEAM doesn't account for the styles of European practice that are

firmly rooted in the classics of Chinese medicine. Why should they be

called East Asian? One of the great exponents of this movement was

Nguyen van Ghi, a Vietnamese, despite the state of war that often

exists between the two countries. He referred to what he did as

Chinese medicine. His work has inspired a distinctive style of

acupuncture, and much research, in France. TEAM does not reflect the

Frenchness of it, neither does it acknowledge it's foundation in

Chinese medicine. Using the term East Asian medicine is just as much

of an obfuscation as the term Oriental, and I see no reason to allow

anthropologists to tell us what we should call our medicine - that's

not even good anthropological practice.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

It sounds like " Chinese " has achieved generic status, much like the

word " xerox " did. Even though they first developed the product, the

name " xerox " stuck in the common vocabulary even when other

companies made copiers. So, if all acupuncture and herbology can be

called " Chinese, " why not say the degree is a doctorate of Chinese

medicine, DCM?

 

Let those who want to find a unique name for their own particular

style choose and popularize those names. The style of pulse

diagnosis I do, because it is Korean and identifiable to a

particular lineage, could be called Dong Han medicine then---a

specialty.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> At 5:34 PM +0000 12/23/01, 1 wrote:

> >

> >TEAM is the term used by all departments of medical anthropology

that study this body of information. It encompasses japanese,

vietnamese, chinese and korean styles. that covers most of us.

> --

> But TEAM doesn't account for the styles of European practice that

are firmly rooted in the classics of Chinese medicine. Why should

they be called East Asian? One of the great exponents of this

movement was

> Nguyen van Ghi, a Vietnamese, despite the state of war that often

> exists between the two countries. He referred to what he did as

> Chinese medicine. His work has inspired a distinctive style of

> acupuncture, and much research, in France. TEAM does not reflect

the

> Frenchness of it, neither does it acknowledge it's foundation in

> Chinese medicine. Using the term East Asian medicine is just as

much

> of an obfuscation as the term Oriental, and I see no reason to

allow

> anthropologists to tell us what we should call our medicine -

that's

> not even good anthropological practice.

>

> Rory

> --

[Guest guest]

All these traditions are innovations of Chinese medicine with local

cultural influences, but rooted in the classical Chinese medical

literature. A broad and interesting subject. I also feel comfortable

with the Chinese medicine title, and consider that to be my profession.

 

 

On Sunday, December 23, 2001, at 09:47 AM, 1 wrote:

 

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > Yes, it does.  " Medicine of the Han (people)'.

> >

> > I also think the Korean is the same.  (Someone correct me if I am

> wrong).

> >

>

> come to think of it, I work with a vietnamese fellow who reads lots of

> vietnamese books on herbal medicine.  they refer to the professional

> tradition as Chinese medicine in their titles.  Fact is whatever the

> cultural animosities, all forms of east asian medicine are rooted in

> china, the nei jing, nan jing and SHL, all chinese books.

>

 

>

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

 

> --

> But TEAM doesn't account for the styles of European practice that are

> firmly rooted in the classics of Chinese medicine. Why should they be

> called East Asian? One of the great exponents of this movement was

> Nguyen van Ghi, a Vietnamese, despite the state of war that often

> exists between the two countries. He referred to what he did as

> Chinese medicine.

 

and inthe final analysis chinese medicine is the term I think should be

used (see my most recent posts on this).

 

His work has inspired a distinctive style of

> acupuncture, and much research, in France. TEAM does not reflect the

> Frenchness of it, neither does it acknowledge it's foundation in

> Chinese medicine. Using the term East Asian medicine is just as much

> of an obfuscation as the term Oriental,

 

not really, since oriental referred to everything from north african to

arabic to east asian to indian. east asian is actually a precise

academic term that refers to just the cultures we are concerned about

(china, korean, vietnamese, japanese, also thai, cambodian, laotian)

 

and I see no reason to allow

> anthropologists to tell us what we should call our medicine - that's

> not even good anthropological practice.

 

they are not telling us. I am just suggesting that if we follow

anyone's lead, it should be thoughtful academics, not european

colonialists. And if CM is unacceptable, east asian is far preferable

to oriental. It is far more accurate than oriental and non-pejorative.

>

> Rory

> --

[Guest guest]

Then, following Zev's lead, it's settled and we have consensus. The

new degree will be called DTCM.

 

On to the next problem.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> That sounds reasonable to me, dude .

>

> By the way, the new license for practice of Chinese medicine in

British

> Columbia is DTCM (doctor of TCM).

>

> On Sunday, December 23, 2001, at 11:10 AM, jramholz wrote:

>

> > It sounds like " Chinese " has achieved generic status, much like

the

> > word " xerox " did. Even though they first developed the product,

the

> > name " xerox " stuck in the common vocabulary even when other

> > companies made copiers. So, if all acupuncture and herbology can

be

> > called " Chinese, " why not say the degree is a doctorate of

Chinese

> > medicine, DCM?

> >

> > Let those who want to find a unique name for their own particular

> > style choose and popularize those names. The style of pulse

> > diagnosis I do, because it is Korean and identifiable to a

> > particular lineage, could be called Dong Han medicine then---a

> > specialty.

> >

> >

> > Jim Ramholz

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> > > At 5:34 PM +0000 12/23/01, 1 wrote:

> > > >

> > > >TEAM is the term used by all departments of medical

anthropology

> > that study this body of information.  It encompasses japanese,

> > vietnamese, chinese and korean styles.  that covers most of us.

> > > --

> > > But TEAM doesn't account for the styles of European practice

that

> > are firmly rooted in the classics of Chinese medicine. Why should

> > they be called East Asian? One of the great exponents of this

> > movement was

> > > Nguyen van Ghi, a Vietnamese, despite the state of war that

often

> > > exists between the two countries. He referred to what he did as

> > > Chinese medicine. His work has inspired a distinctive style of

> > > acupuncture, and much research, in France. TEAM does not

reflect

> > the

> > > Frenchness of it, neither does it acknowledge it's foundation

in

> > > Chinese medicine. Using the term East Asian medicine is just as

> > much

> > > of an obfuscation as the term Oriental, and I see no reason to

> > allow

> > > anthropologists to tell us what we should call our medicine -

> > that's

> > > not even good anthropological practice.

> > >

> > > Rory

> > > --

> >

> >

>

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

variety

> > of professional services, including board approved online

continuing

> > education.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

That sounds reasonable to me, dude .

 

By the way, the new license for practice of Chinese medicine in British

Columbia is DTCM (doctor of TCM).

 

On Sunday, December 23, 2001, at 11:10 AM, jramholz wrote:

 

> It sounds like " Chinese " has achieved generic status, much like the

> word " xerox " did. Even though they first developed the product, the

> name " xerox " stuck in the common vocabulary even when other

> companies made copiers. So, if all acupuncture and herbology can be

> called " Chinese, " why not say the degree is a doctorate of Chinese

> medicine, DCM?

>

> Let those who want to find a unique name for their own particular

> style choose and popularize those names. The style of pulse

> diagnosis I do, because it is Korean and identifiable to a

> particular lineage, could be called Dong Han medicine then---a

> specialty.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

> , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> > At 5:34 PM +0000 12/23/01, 1 wrote:

> > >

> > >TEAM is the term used by all departments of medical anthropology

> that study this body of information.  It encompasses japanese,

> vietnamese, chinese and korean styles.  that covers most of us.

> > --

> > But TEAM doesn't account for the styles of European practice that

> are firmly rooted in the classics of Chinese medicine. Why should

> they be called East Asian? One of the great exponents of this

> movement was

> > Nguyen van Ghi, a Vietnamese, despite the state of war that often

> > exists between the two countries. He referred to what he did as

> > Chinese medicine. His work has inspired a distinctive style of

> > acupuncture, and much research, in France. TEAM does not reflect

> the

> > Frenchness of it, neither does it acknowledge it's foundation in

> > Chinese medicine. Using the term East Asian medicine is just as

> much

> > of an obfuscation as the term Oriental, and I see no reason to

> allow

> > anthropologists to tell us what we should call our medicine -

> that's

> > not even good anthropological practice.

> >

> > Rory

> > --

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rory -

 

In Shanghai there are docs who specialize in research on pulse diagnosis. So it would be true for academics in pursuit of research. However, noone is specializing in a diagnostic medium for the purposes of practice.

 

Will

 

In a message dated 12/23/01 3:36:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, rorykerr writes:

 

 

James, I pretty sure that neither Chinese nor Western medicine allows for specialties based on diagnostic method; it is done according to anatomical/physiological system (ie gynecology, neurology), patient type (pediatrics, geriatrics) or disease type (oncology). I guess radiology comes close, but then it can't be considered a system of medicine.

[Guest guest]

Fernando -

 

That was Texas. And it was a problem due to how the acupuncture scope of practice was written. It said something to the affect of 'recommending energetic bodywork.' The judge ruled that the statement recommendation limited practitioners to just that.

However, chiropractors did incite the process.

 

This just speaks to the need of writing good scope of practice laws in each and very state.

 

Will

 

 

In a message dated 12/23/01 5:07:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, fbernall writes:

 

 

Well, I don't know. I recall recently, can't remember which state, New Mexico or Texas, not sure, where the Chiropractic board managed to create some problems for px practicing some Tui Na spine manipulation techniques. They claimed the px where outside of scope of practice.

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

 

Chiropractors may not dig it

 

Fernando

 

> I like DCM, short and sweet and accurate. does anyone have any

> objections if I send the transcripts of this discussion to the

> appropriate decisison makers

>

 

[Guest guest]

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

>

> Chiropractors may not dig it

 

 

good point. chiros are called DC in every state,I believe, but I also

think this is because they were denied the titles of DCM or CMD at one

time. However, that was a different era. I am not that concerned

about the chiropractic lobby. should I be?

 

[Guest guest]

At 7:20 PM +0000 12/23/01, 1 wrote:

>, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

>

> So, if all acupuncture and herbology can be

>> called " Chinese, " why not say the degree is a doctorate of Chinese

>> medicine, DCM?

>

>I like DCM, short and sweet and accurate. does anyone have any

>objections if I send the transcripts of this discussion to the

>appropriate decisison makers

--

 

No, although I would object to DTCM (as James suggested), as TCM is a

style of CM, not the whole thing.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 7:10 PM +0000 12/23/01, jramholz wrote:

>Let those who want to find a unique name for their own particular

>style choose and popularize those names. The style of pulse

>diagnosis I do, because it is Korean and identifiable to a

>particular lineage, could be called Dong Han medicine then---a

>specialty.

--

 

James, I pretty sure that neither Chinese nor Western medicine allows

for specialties based on diagnostic method; it is done according to

anatomical/physiological system (ie gynecology, neurology), patient

type (pediatrics, geriatrics) or disease type (oncology). I guess

radiology comes close, but then it can't be considered a system of

medicine.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Jim -

 

The Shanghai research involves people who have very serious, substantive pathology. They are using all types of devices to compare findings with pulse taking by hand.

 

Will

 

 

 

> In Shanghai there are docs who specialize in research on pulse diagnosis. So it would be true for academics in pursuit of research. However, no one is specializing in a diagnostic medium for the purposes of practice.

> > Will

 

 

Then we should probably call it a style?

 

What sort of things are they researching in Shanghai?

[Guest guest]

Well, I don't know. I recall recently, can't remember which state,

New Mexico or Texas, not sure, where the Chiropractic board managed

to create some problems for px practicing some Tui Na spine

manipulation techniques. They claimed the px where outside of scope

of practice.

 

I also remember reading somewhere that " your greatest foes are

sometimes those in your own family " , and since they are considered

kind of holistic, alternative..I don't know..

 

Fernando

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> >

> > Chiropractors may not dig it

>

>

> good point. chiros are called DC in every state,I believe, but I

also

> think this is because they were denied the titles of DCM or CMD at

one

> time. However, that was a different era. I am not that concerned

> about the chiropractic lobby. should I be?

>

 

[Guest guest]

That was in Texas, and the chiros didn't win that one.

 

fbernall wrote:

 

Well, I don't know. I recall recently, can't remember which state,

New Mexico or Texas, not sure, where the Chiropractic board managed

to create some problems for px practicing some Tui Na spine

manipulation techniques. They claimed the px where outside of scope

of practice.

I also remember reading somewhere that "your greatest foes are

sometimes those in your own family", and since they are considered

kind of holistic, alternative..I don't know..

Fernando

, "1" <@i...> wrote:

> , "fbernall" <fbernall@a...>

wrote:

> > , "1" <@i...>

wrote:

> >

> > Chiropractors may not dig it

>

>

> good point. chiros are called DC in every state,I believe,

but I

also

> think this is because they were denied the titles of DCM or CMD

at

one

> time. However, that was a different era. I am not

that concerned

> about the chiropractic lobby. should I be?

>

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> In Shanghai there are docs who specialize in research on pulse

diagnosis. So it would be true for academics in pursuit of research.

However, no one is specializing in a diagnostic medium for the

purposes of practice.

>

> Will

 

 

Then we should probably call it a style?

 

What sort of things are they researching in Shanghai?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Rory:

 

Then should we call it a style?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> James, I pretty sure that neither Chinese nor Western medicine

allows for specialties based on diagnostic method; it is done

according to anatomical/physiological system (ie gynecology,

neurology), patient type (pediatrics, geriatrics) or disease type

(oncology). I guess radiology comes close, but then it can't be

considered a system of medicine.

>

> Rory

> --

[Guest guest]

At 2:45 AM +0000 12/24/01, jramholz wrote:

>Then should we call it a style?

--

That seems right. Of course, if the system includes theory,

diagnostic method and treatment method, then it is a system of

medicine, and I don't see anything wrong with calling it Dong Han

medicine; just that it may not be a specialty in the traditional

sense. This issue came up with the AAMA many years ago, when they

wanted the AMA to recognize acupuncture as a medical specialty. They

got a snitty response to the effect that treatment modalities aren't

specialities.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

may we should call it new medicine

Alon

 

-

Rory Kerr

Sunday, December 23, 2001 8:12 AM

Re: Digest Number 820

At 10:23 AM +0000 12/23/01, jramholz wrote:>I would like to expand upon Zev's thought. The concern is not only>about recent political sensitivity of how to categorize Asians, but>limiting the identification of acupuncture and herbology to China.>Korea and Japan have developed and expanded CM's theory and>practice. So much attention has been placed on only learning Chinese->--what about the hundreds of years of Korean and Japanese medical>literature?--No doubt the Japanese and Koreans have expanded the medicine, but the root theory is Chinese. To follow your suggestion, the French and others in Europe have also developed sophisticated elaborations of Chinese medicine, particularly in acupuncture.How can this be embraced by the terms Oriental, or East Asian?The Koreans, Japanese, French, and others have developed their own methods of acupuncture, but so far as herbs is concerned the Koreans practice very much like the Chinese, and the Japanese Kampo system is based exclusively on classic Chinese texts.If we are talking about Chinese medicine, how and why does the categorization of Asians come into the discussion?>>For example, little that I do in pulse diagnosis is TCM although it>is based on the classical literature. Chip Chace's new book on>divergent meridians shows another path by exploring Japanese>acupuncture to make up for the limitations of Chinese literature.>>If we only refer to what we do as Chinese medicine, it isn't>strictly true.--The Chinese literature, theory, and practice of Chinese medicine is being continuously developed both within China and outside China. Why should that cause us to change its name?Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01/15/2004 2:04:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,

writes:

 

 

> IRAQ -- VERY INTERESTING -- DID YOU KNOW ?

>

> 1. The garden of Eden was in Iraq.

> 2. Mesopotamia which is now Iraq was the cradle of civilization!

>

 

That was the Iraq of then, we are dealing with the Iraq of now..

 

The information was interesting .......

 

Mercedes

Mercedes Rose Herndon

Reiki Master/Teacher, Artist, Photographer

Designer & Creator of Silk Healing Scarves

Owner of " Just for You " Custom Cards

Coauthor & Publisher of:

" Loving Thoughts for Gentle Hearts; v. 1 - Goals, Dreams & Affirmations "