Digest Number 820

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/22/01 9:18:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

 

 

But it is my understanding that oriental is considered a pejorative term by both academics and eudcated people from east asia. All major universities have long since replaced this term with east asian.

 

This is true for those venues.....however, it is not true for the profession or the clientele it serves. The use of Oriental was generated by non-Chinese Asians practicing this medicine. Asian is too vague.

 

AOBTA took that on and switched to AABTA - CCAOM, ACAOM, AAOM, AOMA all decided to retain the designator Oriental since it is not pejorative for the users.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/22/01 9:28:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, rorykerr writes:

 

 

This is a bad joke. Who are these people who make decisions like this? Is there some way we, the plebeian horde, can prevent this decision?

 

Rory -

Write letters to ACAOM and CCAOM. Talk to the Dean's and administrators at your schools who participate on the Council of Colleges.

Will

 

CCAOM

7501 Greenway Center Drive

Suite 820

Greenbelt, MD 20770 Tel: 301-313-0868 Fax: 301-313-0869

att: Liza Goldblatt Chair

http://www.ccaom.org/

ACAOM

Maryland Trade Center #3

7501 Greenway Center Drive, Suite 820

Greenbelt, MD 20770

Phone: 301-313-0855

Fax: 301-313-0912

Att: Dort Bigg executive director

http://www.acaom.org/

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/22/01 10:00:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

 

 

I don't think that is true. I think it was generated by white school owners who wanted a term that reflected their diverse trends in education (chinese, japanese, korean, etc.) and were ignorant of the controversy on this term because none of these owners had formal academic training.

 

 

 

I know it to be so for Emperor's whose owner is Korean, hence the MTOM degree. I have also had this experience with Japanese practitioners. I was not aware of it being an issue for Caucasian school owners.

 

The issue is complicated. It would require laws to be changed in certain states, incorporation papers for institutions, all communication documents would have to be changed. I don't think this notion will fly.

 

The use of Oriental as a pejorative comes from Europe, and thus those Asian academics trained in European influenced schools.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

re: the doctorate title

 

may I suggest Doctor of Oriental Health. Said with vigor.

 

DOH!!!

 

 

The title has not been engraved in stone as of yet - it does look like

it

will be the DAOM however.

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

> re: the doctorate title

>

> may I suggest Doctor of Oriental Health. Said with vigor.

>

> DOH!!!

>

 

Dare I say this? Is it time to abandon the term oriental altogether?

Perhaps Ken can comment on this. But it is my understanding that

oriental is considered a pejorative term by both academics and eudcated

people from east asia. All major universities have long since replaced

this term with east asian. Then we could be DEAM's. Wouldn't you want

to be on the DEAM Team? OK. I'll duck and run for cover now. I can

sense the rotten tomatoes flying towards me.

 

[Guest guest]

At 7:53 AM -0800 12/22/01, wrote:

>The title has not been engraved in stone as of yet - it does look like

>it

>will be the DAOM however.

--

 

This is a bad joke. Who are these people who make decisions like

this? Is there some way we, the plebeian horde, can prevent this

decision?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

>

> This is true for those venues.....however, it is not true for the profession

> or the clientele it serves.

 

a pejorative is a pejorative. it does not matter whether we or our

clients don't see it that way. such an attitude would allow anyone to

use any offensive racist term they wanted to and claim it is OK because

the user of the term doesn't mind. I also think it bears on our status

in professional academia. If we plan to collaborate with universities

on research and translation issues, I suspect this may become a point

of contention.

 

The use of Oriental was generated by non-Chinese

> Asians practicing this medicine.

 

I don't think that is true. I think it was generated by white school

owners who wanted a term that reflected their diverse trends in

education (chinese, japanese, korean, etc.) and were ignorant of the

controversy on this term because none of these owners had formal

academic training.

 

Asian is too vague.

 

Actually, the term is east asian and it is accepted by all major

learning institutions to refer to all the cultures that oriental

referred to, but without any pejorative connotation.

 

[Guest guest]

At 5:14 PM +0000 12/22/01, 1 wrote:

>Wouldn't you want

>to be on the DEAM Team?

--

 

even better would be DrEAM...

--

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> At 5:14 PM +0000 12/22/01, 1 wrote:

> >Wouldn't you want

> >to be on the DEAM Team?

> --

>

> even better would be DrEAM...

 

I thought of that after I sent it. But I decided I had been corny

enough...

> --

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

> I know it to be so for Emperor's whose owner is Korean, hence the MTOM

> degree. I have also had this experience with Japanese practitioners. I was

> not aware of it being an issue for Caucasian school owners.

 

I think if you talk to americans of asian descent who are highly

educated and speak english as their native language, you will find that

this term is considered highly offensive. the fact that asians of

asian descent don't recognize the pejorative nature of the term is not

convincing to me. I think that is a byproduct of their unfamiliarity

with our language. I heard an asian teacher at PCOM refer to an

italian colleague as a WOP. He clearly had no idea this was a racist

epithet.

 

[Guest guest]

At 5:59 PM +0000 12/22/01, 1 wrote:

>, WMorris116@A... wrote:

>

>>

>> This is true for those venues.....however, it is not true for the profession

>> or the clientele it serves.

>

>a pejorative is a pejorative. it does not matter whether we or our

>clients don't see it that way. such an attitude would allow anyone to

>use any offensive racist term they wanted to and claim it is OK because

>the user of the term doesn't mind.

---

 

The term oriental is not pejorative or racist per se. The term has

acceptable usage, as in 'oriental rugs', and in botany. Probably the

idea that it is pejorative is a fad dreamed up in the anthropology

departments, and as such it will go away in due course, so perhaps we

shouldn't take it too seriously. After all, we are not using it as a

pejorative, even if it can be used that way.

 

On the other hand, I always prefer the term Chinese medicine, which

is more accurate, and really couldn't care less about American

schools of acupuncture and their identity issues.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

1 wrote:

 

> I think if you talk to americans of asian descent who are highly

> educated and speak english as their native language, you will find that

> this term is considered highly offensive.

 

Why??? (do they consider it offensive)

 

If only educated individuals have a problem with the term, perhaps they

learned to have a problem with it.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

 

> ---

>

> The term oriental is not pejorative or racist per se.

 

most academic authrities would disagree with this statement

 

The term has

> acceptable usage, as in 'oriental rugs',

 

a nonacademic field, so what can we expect ...

 

and in botany.

 

botany? elaborate,please.

 

Probably the

> idea that it is pejorative is a fad dreamed up in the anthropology

> departments, and as such it will go away in due course,

 

that is unlikely. like black studies will become negro history

 

so perhaps we

> shouldn't take it too seriously. After all, we are not using it as a

> pejorative, even if it can be used that way.

 

we are being careless. just like those who still use the term

" colored " because they think it is acceptable compared to other choices

 

the quote below is from an asian newspaper, not some liberal PC anthro

department. this issue has been part of the civil rights struggle for

almost 40 years. it is hardly a fad.

 

" The problem with the term " Oriental "

is that it originated from white colonialists' exclusion of Asian

Pacific Americans from citizenship, immigration

and civil rights. The word justified discrimination by classifying

Asian immigrants as " less than " or " other "

and furthered imperialists' exploitative practices. The term " Oriental "

is geographically unspecific. Literally

meaning " from the Orient, " " Oriental " references the division in

cultures and traditions between the East and

West. But the word starts from the point of view of a Westerner,

looking east toward the Orient. When used in reference to a person

or group of people, " Oriental " is pejorative and derisive. Since the

Civil Rights Era, the Asian Pacific

American community has progressively shifted away from using

" Oriental. " It built a platform based on a

commonality of the struggles the APA community. People often use the

word " Oriental " without realizing its

offensiveness. "

 

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

>

>

> 1 wrote:

 

> > this term is considered highly offensive.

>

> Why??? (do they consider it offensive)

>

> If only educated individuals have a problem with the term, perhaps they

> learned to have a problem with it.

>

 

As opposed to what? Having an inborn offense to it? Of course, all

consideration of racism is one that arises from academic and

intellectual discussion. I learned of animal abuse to produce meds

like bear bile. I decided through discussion and reading that this was

not acceptable to me. Others have decided that it is OK because

animals are less than us. Just because I " learned " of this, I should

not be concerned.

 

Ironically, the use of the term oriental is considered derisive because

its whole hisotry is one of considering asians " less than us " . How

could an uneducated person know this? Anyone who is familiar with the

actual history of the term cannot deny its inherent racism. But some

people are comfortable with that just as with animal abuse, even after

learning the facts. I'm not. Again, say and think as you please. I

just think it is bad press for our profession. Mainly a PR and

economic concern to me. But I guess I also think if I tell you what my

name is, I don't want you to make up a derisive nickname and call me

that instead. Common courtesy.

 

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

 

I believe the term came into being as european

imperialism divided the world into the orient and the

occident. It is a colonial term.

 

They come from latin roots related to the directions

of the rising and setting sun. At some point they may

have been neutral terms.

 

But where I am, in California, the rising sun comes

from Europe, and the setting sun goes toward asia, so

these terms are obviously from a certain time and

place.

 

We know that all things must change. Why fight it,

just because we feel secure with something familiar?

 

Lorraine

 

--- Rory Kerr <rorykerr wrote:

> The term oriental is not pejorative or racist per

> se. The term has

> acceptable usage, as in 'oriental rugs', and in

> botany.

 

=====

Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac.

 

 

 

Send your FREE holiday greetings online!

http://greetings.

[Guest guest]

No,

 

I think it is time to drop the 'oriental' moniker. It doesn't mean

anything anymore, now that most Westerners are more aware of east Asian

cultures. Also, it is not specific enough. Jews from Morocco and Iraq

were called " Oriental Jews " at one time.

 

 

On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 09:14 AM, 1 wrote:

 

> , wrote:

> > re: the doctorate title

> >

> >  may I suggest Doctor of Oriental Health. Said with vigor.

> >

> > DOH!!!

> >

>

> Dare I say this?  Is it time to abandon the term oriental altogether? 

> Perhaps Ken can comment on this.  But it is my understanding that

> oriental is considered a pejorative term by both academics and eudcated

> people from east asia.  All major universities have long since replaced

> this term with east asian.  Then we could be DEAM's.  Wouldn't you want

> to be on the DEAM Team?  OK.  I'll duck and run for cover now.  I can

> sense the rotten tomatoes flying towards me.

>

 

>

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The way through this dilemma is by attending meetings of these

organizations and putting our voices in. This, of course, involves time

and money.

 

Or, another idea. Perhaps CHA can start to get consensus on certain

points of view, and put them out to the profession at large and specific

organizations.

 

 

On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 09:33 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

> At 7:53 AM -0800 12/22/01, wrote:

> >The title has not been engraved in stone as of yet - it does look like

> >it

> >will be the DAOM however.

> --

>

> This is a bad joke. Who are these people who make decisions like

> this? Is there some way we, the plebeian horde, can prevent this

> decision?

>

> Rory

> --

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with Todd.

 

Even though all our organizations made the 'oriental' mistake, it is

still a mistake.

We should follow the university model, used in most institutions and

journals on these subjects.

 

 

On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 09:59 AM, 1 wrote:

 

>

>

> a pejorative is a pejorative.  it does not matter whether we or our

> clients don't see it that way.  such an attitude would allow anyone to

> use any offensive racist term they wanted to and claim it is OK because

> the user of the term doesn't mind.  I also think it bears on our status

> in professional academia.  If we plan to collaborate with universities

> on research and translation issues, I suspect this may become a point

> of contention.

>

> The use of Oriental was generated by non-Chinese

> > Asians practicing this medicine.

>

> I don't think that is true.  I think it was generated by white school

> owners who wanted a term that reflected their diverse trends in

> education (chinese, japanese, korean, etc.) and were ignorant of the

> controversy on this term because none of these owners had formal

> academic training.

>

> Asian is too vague.

>

> Actually, the term is east asian and it is accepted by all major

> learning institutions to refer to all the cultures that oriental

> referred to, but without any pejorative connotation.

>

 

>

>

[Guest guest]

One time when I gave a lecture at a university, a Korean school owner

who was there objected to my use of the term " Chinese medicine " . I

figured out that there are political sensitivities between China, Korea,

Japan and other Asian countries based on recent history.

 

 

On Saturday, December 22, 2001, at 12:14 PM, 1 wrote:

 

>

>

> I think if you talk to americans of asian descent who are highly

> educated and speak english as their native language, you will find that

> this term is considered highly offensive.  the fact that asians of

> asian descent don't recognize the pejorative nature of the term is not

> convincing to me.  I think that is a byproduct of their unfamiliarity

> with our language.  I heard an asian teacher at PCOM refer to an

> italian colleague as a WOP.  He clearly had no idea this was a racist

> epithet.

>

 

>

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

 

> Or, another idea. Perhaps CHA can start to get consensus on certain

> points of view,

 

that's a joke, right?

 

[Guest guest]

I would like to expand upon Zev's thought. The concern is not only

about recent political sensitivity of how to categorize Asians, but

limiting the identification of acupuncture and herbology to China.

Korea and Japan have developed and expanded CM's theory and

practice. So much attention has been placed on only learning Chinese-

--what about the hundreds of years of Korean and Japanese medical

literature?

 

For example, little that I do in pulse diagnosis is TCM although it

is based on the classical literature. Chip Chace's new book on

divergent meridians shows another path by exploring Japanese

acupuncture to make up for the limitations of Chinese literature.

 

If we only refer to what we do as Chinese medicine, it isn't

strictly true.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> One time when I gave a lecture at a university, a Korean school

owner who was there objected to my use of the term " Chinese

medicine " .

[Guest guest]

I don't see any pejorative aspect of the word " oriental " (being european). It

is the complementary notion to occident. First this meant the arabic-islamic

world opposed to the christian (a metaphoric expression). It had nothing to

do with european colonialism, as it is older than that.

My only problem with it is that it is extremely unspecific. The orient

starts in Turkey and ends in Japan!!!

In Europe (at least in Germany) we don't use that word " oriental medicine "

and when I first read it I really wondered what that was supposed to be.

Maybe Avicenna-style medicine?

To be honest, to me this notion makes no sense at all!

In America there seems to be a specific historical situation, as some of you

mentioned. Another reason to get rid of that word.

 

patrick

[Guest guest]

Todd -

 

 

Doesn't kanpo actually mean "chinese medicine"?

 

It means Han medicine........So in a sense, yes.......Will

[Guest guest]

At 10:23 AM +0000 12/23/01, jramholz wrote:

>I would like to expand upon Zev's thought. The concern is not only

>about recent political sensitivity of how to categorize Asians, but

>limiting the identification of acupuncture and herbology to China.

>Korea and Japan have developed and expanded CM's theory and

>practice. So much attention has been placed on only learning Chinese-

>--what about the hundreds of years of Korean and Japanese medical

>literature?

--

No doubt the Japanese and Koreans have expanded the medicine, but the

root theory is Chinese. To follow your suggestion, the French and

others in Europe have also developed sophisticated elaborations of

Chinese medicine, particularly in acupuncture.How can this be

embraced by the terms Oriental, or East Asian?

 

The Koreans, Japanese, French, and others have developed their own

methods of acupuncture, but so far as herbs is concerned the Koreans

practice very much like the Chinese, and the Japanese Kampo system is

based exclusively on classic Chinese texts.

 

If we are talking about Chinese medicine, how and why does the

categorization of Asians come into the discussion?

 

>

>For example, little that I do in pulse diagnosis is TCM although it

>is based on the classical literature. Chip Chace's new book on

>divergent meridians shows another path by exploring Japanese

>acupuncture to make up for the limitations of Chinese literature.

>

>If we only refer to what we do as Chinese medicine, it isn't

>strictly true.

--

The Chinese literature, theory, and practice of Chinese medicine is

being continuously developed both within China and outside China. Why

should that cause us to change its name?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 11:48 AM +0100 12/23/01, Patrick Rudolph wrote:

>In Europe (at least in Germany) we don't use that word " oriental medicine "

--

What term do you use? (with translation please!)

 

Rory

--