Sidereal and Tropical Zodiac

April 14, 2010

The Tropical of today, was the Tropical of the Ancients of India in the

Golden Yuga.

The Sayana of today was the Nirayana of the Ancient indians.

The predictions in the ancient were meant for Tropical and now applied

to Nirayana by making the Tropical of today into Sidereal through the

precsion...or the anayamsha.

Bhaskar.

, " Bhaskar "

<bhaskar_jyotish wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh ji,

>

> Sidereal is Nirayan is Stellar is Eastern. We knew about the 12 Spokes

> of the wheel, But did not use Raashis in the ancient times for

> Prediction purposes, except Nakshatras .

>

> Tropical is Sayana is Western because we in East do not follow it

these

> days.

>

> The words mentioned as Directions are denoted as Eastern or Western

only

> to bifercate the regions which use in Majority Tropical or Sidereal.

>

> Sayana was the Ancient astrology of India. But no more.

>

> Love and regards,

>

> Bhaskar.

>

> , " sreesog " sreesog@

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Amit,

> > For Sidereal astrology (I mean Nirayana astrology and NOT stellar

> > astrology) read some good book on Indian astrology. (There are many

in

> > the market)

> > For Tropical astrology (I mean Tropical astrology and NOT Sayana

> > astrology) please read some good book on Western astrology. (There

are

> > many in the market).

> > Please note that -

> > * Sidereal astrology itself is neither eastern or western. (Many

> > ancient Hellenistic astrologer followed Sidereal - i.e. fixed zodiac

-

> > system); similarly

> > * Tropical astrology itself is neither eastern or western. (Many

> > ancient Indian texts such as Vedsa refer to the extensive use of

> > tropical astrology).

> > It is just that later Sidereal astrology was seriously taken up by

> > Indians and Tropical astrology by Westerners (Europeans and modern

day

> > Americans).

> > Hope this helps.

> > Love and regards,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " amit.baid "

> > amit.baid@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Learned Fraternity,

> > >

> > > Kindly suggest a good book to clarify concepts on Sidereal and

> > Tropical Zodiac.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > Amit

> > >

> >

>

April 14, 2010

, " sreesog " <sreesog wrote:

>

But certainly at that time as well

> Tropical astrology was in existence in India (as evident from Vedas)

I have thought the calendar was lunisolar, so they used intercalation to make it

agree with the equinoctical events (I don't say ingress).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunisolar_calendar

If there was a tropial zodiac in use, why not have 12 or at least 4 events.

Isn't there actually just one event (makar sankranti). Also if it was a tropical

zodiac, why would one celebrate entrance into a malefic sign. Maybe it just got

that name because they agreed at some point.

and

> was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from clay tablets).

I'm afraid only in the imaginations of certain tropicalists. Read the archeology

instead.

Similarly

> used of Fixed zodiac (Sidereal astrology) was in existence in India (as

> evident from Surya Siddhanta and ancient rishi horas) and was in

> existence in Greek and many other parts of the western land (as evident

> from Hipparchus works and other ancient evidences). As cjjohans ji

> rightly puts it " there are people (in minority) who care more for the

> fixed zodiac. The others even choose to ignore that the first western

> astrologers (like Valens) used fixed zodiac. " . Right he is! The truth is

> - both Tropical Astrology as well as Sidereal astrology was in existence

> from ancient past; both the systems argue that one is better than the

> other; now we are in soup where it is difficult to understand which

> statement is said related to tropical astrology and which about sidereal

> astrology; the prediction statements made by astrologers of both these

> systems are mixed-up that much by the fools (like us) who followed! It

> is high time that this mistake is corrected.

April 15, 2010

Dear Amitji,

The best book to clarify the concepts on sidereal and tropical zodiac is

'Bharatiya Jyotish' by Shakar Balakrishna Dixit, written over one hundred years

back.

Hari Malla

, " sreesog " <sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Amit,

> For Sidereal astrology (I mean Nirayana astrology and NOT stellar

> astrology) read some good book on Indian astrology. (There are many in

> the market)

> For Tropical astrology (I mean Tropical astrology and NOT Sayana

> astrology) please read some good book on Western astrology. (There are

> many in the market).

> Please note that -

> * Sidereal astrology itself is neither eastern or western. (Many

> ancient Hellenistic astrologer followed Sidereal - i.e. fixed zodiac -

> system); similarly

> * Tropical astrology itself is neither eastern or western. (Many

> ancient Indian texts such as Vedsa refer to the extensive use of

> tropical astrology).

> It is just that later Sidereal astrology was seriously taken up by

> Indians and Tropical astrology by Westerners (Europeans and modern day

> Americans).

> Hope this helps.

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " amit.baid "

> <amit.baid@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Learned Fraternity,

> >

> > Kindly suggest a good book to clarify concepts on Sidereal and

> Tropical Zodiac.

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Amit

> >

>

April 15, 2010

Dear cjjohans JI,

//Wrong there are people (in minority) who care more for the fixed

zodiac.//

I am aware of fact that much work was done related to sidereal

zodiac...that is more academic either motive is research ...we may

consider frawley or Fagan...or else...

What the emphasis they pointed out is Consider Moon as central

Idea......and Orbit of Moon too become important....not like modern

western who go instead Sun Alone as Base Idea....Both are

complementary...how ever my finding are different

I have not encountered yet in modern western system to use Nakshatra is

sense they are used in India....i am not against using or not aware

(rather they have done much work)...

Prediction done by using Sign alone without considering

Nakshatra.....(but the concept seems to me is Sideral Time)...

//

Actually Westerners use both systems for mansions, so that says

something about their confusion on the issue

I am

mentioned same system....using Tropical ephemeris....Syderal system is

not there of 27 Nakshatra....see text from link....

//In the Tropical mansions, the first Mansion began with Aries, the 8th

Mansion with Cancer, the 15th Mansion with Libra and the 22nd Mansion

with Capricorn. These tropical Mansions are regular in size,

approximately 12 degrees and 51 minutes. The Vedic astrology of India

uses a sidereal Zodiac in which the Mansions are again regular and of

equal size, approximately 13 degrees and 20 minutes. The beginning of

Aries in the sidereal Zodiac is oriented not to the Seasons, but to the

fixed stars which move very slowly, approximately a degree every 72

years due to the precession of the equinoxes. //

Also see link and how chart has been casted by them and what that book

is for...casting of chart is using Tropical

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/silver26thmansiontalisman.html

It refer to segment 26 which i mentioned ....(26. Alpharg or Phragol

Mocaden, 21 Aquarius 25 to 4 Pisces 17 )...using Tropical

------------------

Regards,

Devisingh

cjjohans wrote:

,

devisigh <devisingh.rajput wrote:

>

> Dear cjjohans JI,

>

> I was surprised since waiting does anyone knows western here or

> not....at least people can express what they have learned so

> far...thanks for reply to make thread inline

>

> western Astrology has nothing to do with unmoving wheel....It is

all

> about moving wheel....

Wrong there are people (in minority) who care more for the fixed

zodiac. The others even choose to ignore that the first western

astrologers (like Valens) used fixed zodiac. But I will grant to

Bhaskar that most are at least aware of the issue, but go with the flow.

They never used so called Nakshatra which are part

> of fixed wheel...at least i have not encountered any use of that

> unmoving wheel into western moving wheel....this does not mean

that

> unmoving wheel is superior or moving wheel superior...such

thinking are

> absurd...

>

> western have provided a name Mansion...when we understand that we

find

> that this is a 7th segment of 90 degree...It has nothing to do

with

> Nakshatra....

>

Actually Westerners use both systems for mansions, so that says

something about their confusion on the issue

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mansionsmoon.html

> Mansion start with Aries sign which is moving wheel Tropical

> Zpdiac....28 segment are marked start with Aries for whole 360

> degree...I do not understand as far as prediction concern anybody

can

> not see any complimentary system as a whole...I see what is 'arc'

in all

> systems that tells why they are working since long time....

>

Western astrology almost went extinct in the 18th century, so I'm not

sure one can say it's working perfectly. (Of course that was not

entirely the fault of the astrology, the increased science happened

too.)

> Nakshatra from sidereal system is Moola then as per western

Mansion

> would be nearly more then 2-3 from that...since they consider 28

and

> segment are different...and yes momement in equinox makes

difference

> again there.....

>

> ------------------

> Regards,

> Devisingh

>

> Bhaskar wrote:

> >

> > I am studying this since last 2 Years so am qualified to say

that they

> > KNOW. Those who are not using it, is for the simple reasons

which also

> > matches what most of Indian astrologers too do, that is, take

the easy

> > way out, and read results of planets in signs or houses, from

Linda

> > Goodmans, or other books in India, which requires no study to

be done

> > BUT just simple verbal recitation from books to be done.

> >

> > <%40>,

"cjjohans"

> > <cjjohans@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Most Westerners don't use stars or nakshatras at all.

They think on

> > average the tropical is more "scientific" as opposed to

religious or

> > mystical. Ptolemy (a scientist who believed astrology is just

a weather

> > effect) was the first to use tropical.

> > >

> > <%40>,

"Bhaskar"

> > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > The Westerners are quite aware of the Fixed Stars

of the Zodiac like

> > the

> > > > Chitra or the Spica which is considered to be most

fortunate in both

> > > > systems. Every Nakshatra of ours has been given a

corresponding name

> > by

> > > > the Westerners through their own approach of

loacting these in the

> > > > skies.

> > > >

> > > > regards/Bhaskar.

> > > >

> > <%40>,

devisigh

> > > > <devisingh.rajput@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Amit JI,

> > > > >

> > > > > //Aren't both interrelated?//

> > > > > It appear but it is not, Both system are

different and gets

> > > > > mixed...Nakshatra system not requires to know

Sign for

> > > > > Prediction...likewise Sign system does

not requires to know

> > Nakshatra

> > > > of

> > > > > planet.....

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------

> > > > > Regards,

> > > > > Devisingh

> > > > >

> > > > > amit.baid wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Devisingh ji,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Aren't both interrelated? It is stars

(nakshtras) which define a

> > > > > > zodiac. Therefore, position of a planet

in a particular star

> > should

> > > > > > corroborate with the zodiac sign.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have got a DVD on the planets and solar

system but it turned

> > out

> > > > to

> > > > > > be a insight into various planets its

environment etc. This was

> > > > > > produced by "History Channel". Can

anybody suggest some other

> > DVD/CD

> > > > > > which explains these fundamentals.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards / Amit

> > > > > >

> > <%40>

> > > > > > <%40>,

devisigh

> > > > > > devisingh.rajput@ wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Amit JI,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > //clarify concepts on Sidereal and

Tropical Zodiac.//

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Consider two chakra 1)Sign chakra

(start from

> > aries..)2)nakshatra

> > > > > > chakra

> > > > > > > (start from ashwini)........

> > > > > > > Prediction can be given by using

Sign chakra or Nakshatra

> > > > chakra......

> > > > > > > Tropical Zodiac tells Planet in

present in which sign right

> > > > > > now....while

> > > > > > > Sidereal tell planets are present in

which Star (as star are

> > > > considered

> > > > > > > as not moving frame of reference)...

> > > > > > > Steller Base prediction required to

check Planet is present in

> > > > which

> > > > > > > Star.(may be Vedic tradition can not

name)......Sign base

> > > > prediction

> > > > > > > required to check Planet is present

in which Sign(may be

> > Tantric

> > > > trend)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ------------------

> > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > Devisingh

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Chakraborty, PL wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Amit-ji,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > To put it in simple language......

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This sidereal & tropical

system originates from one single

> > > > > > question, i.e.,

> > > > > > > > 'Frame of Reference' or some

fixed background

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In sky, if we have to measure

the position of planets, we

> > need

> > > > some

> > > > > > > > reference

> > > > > > > > point against which we can make

this measurement.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In tropical system, the

position of Sun as it touches

> > equator or

> > > > > > > > tropic of cancer

> > > > > > > > etc. are taken as 'Frame of

Reference'.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In sidereal system, the 'frame

of reference' is some fixed

> > > > stars. Now

> > > > > > > > if you are

> > > > > > > > trying to make measurements

against these fixed stars, then

> > one

> > > > > > > > problem will

> > > > > > > > arise. As earth rotates on its

axis while revolving round

> > the

> > > > Sun, it

> > > > > > > > slightly slips

> > > > > > > > backward.....which is

known as Precessional movement. This

> > is

> > > > > > > > approximately

> > > > > > > > 50" per year. So, say today if

we observed Sun at some

> > > > point...then

> > > > > > > > again next

> > > > > > > > year, at the same date &

time if we look at the Sun, we will

> > > > find

> > > > > > > > that it is slightly

> > > > > > > > behind (by 50").

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This precessional movement over

the years has created enough

> > > > > > difference

> > > > > > > > between Tropical & Sidereal

observations due to different

> > 'frame

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > references'.

> > > > > > > > Among sidereal systems also,

some minor differences exist

> > due to

> > > > > > > > difference in

> > > > > > > > opinion about which particular

star to be taken as reference

> > > > point.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Both system showed same

planetary degrees probably in 285 AD

> > or

> > > > 197

> > > > > > > > AD. Now

> > > > > > > > they are apart by roughly 23.5

degree.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > There are some good artciles in

Soulhealing.com about the

> > > > Tropical &

> > > > > > > > sidereal systems.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 'hope it helps.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > regards

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Chakraborty

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > -------------------------

> > > > > > > > **

> > <%40>

> > > > > > <%40>

> > > > > > > > [

> > <%40>

> > > > > > <%40>]

*On Behalf

> > Of

> > > > *amit

> > > > > > > > desai

> > > > > > > > *Sent:* Friday, April 09, 2010

10:35 AM

> > > > > > > > *To:*

> > <%40>

> > > > > > <%40>

> > > > > > > > *Subject:* Re:

Re: Sidereal and

> > > > > > Tropical Zodiac

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Amitji

> > > > > > > > just to add little more to what

Bhaskarji said

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > in sidereal astrology the

aynamsa is deducted from Tropical

> > > > longitude

> > > > > > > > of planets.

> > > > > > > > Tropical astrology is also

called moveable Zodiac astrology

> > > > b'cos

> > > > > > > > Aries point in this astrology

is not fixed and it changes

> > every

> > > > year.

> > > > > > > > The change is appro 50""

(seconds in longitude) per year.

> > > > > > > > The Aries point in tropical

astrology moves back by 50""

> > every

> > > > year

> > > > > > > > and is called Precession of

equinox.

> > > > > > > > Sidereal is called Fixed Zodiac

astrology and Aries point

> > here

> > > > is

> > > > > > > > fixed correspondig to chitra

paksha asterism . This

> > precession

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > equinox is called Ayan gati in

sidereal astrology and the

> > > > distance

> > > > > > > > moved so far is called Ayanamsa

which is

> > > > > > > > 23*59"49"" as of jan 1st 2010.

> > > > > > > > This amount is deducted from

Tropical longitude of every

> > planet

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > house cusp to derive Sidereal

longitude. Hence lagna degree

> > will

> > > > be

> > > > > > > > different by Aynamsa amount in

Sidereal as compared to

> > Tropical

> > > > birth

> > > > > > > > chart.

> > > > > > > > I hope this will help u

understand the diff. between 2

> > system.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > warm regards

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > *Amit Desai*

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > -------------------------

> > > > > > > > ** Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@

> > > > > > > > *To:*

> > <%40>

> > > > > > <%40>

> > > > > > > > *Sent:* Wed, April 7, 2010

12:17:19 PM

> > > > > > > > *Subject:*

Re: Sidereal and

> > Tropical

> > > > Zodiac

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Amit ji,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sidereal is Indian system.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Tropical is Western system.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In Indian system we deduct the

ayanamsha from the Planetary

> > > > positions

> > > > > > > > and then predict as to what

results would be obtianed .

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In Tropical they dont deduct

the ayanamsha but take the

> > actual

> > > > > > > > position of the planets in the

sky as it is.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In Indian system suppose your

Lagna is Taurus, then in 99%

> > times

> > > > in

> > > > > > > > the Western system the Lagna

would change to Gemini. (One

> > sign

> > > > ahead).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The above is in simple language.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Both systems work well in hands

of Experts.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > For shifting of Equinox You may

refer some elemntary books

> > on

> > > > > > > > Astronomy or some web sites

after putting these terms in

> > search.

> > > > > > > > Unfortunately even after one

Graduates after 5 years from a

> > > > renowned

> > > > > > > > institution be it from Bombay

or Delhi, practical knowledge

> > > > imparted

> > > > > > > > to students is road side... One

has to fend for himself. so

> > let

> > > > me

> > > > > > > > tell you that you are not

missing much by not having a

> > formal

> > > > > > training

> > > > > > > > in these.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You must buy a Rapheals

Ephemeris if you really are

> > interested

> > > > in

> > > > > > > > learning the Western system.

You must also learn to make

> > charts

> > > > > > > > manually. I can vouch from

experience that this hard work

> > will

> > > > not go

> > > > > > > > waste and you would recogbnise

the importance of even 1

> > Degree

> > > > change

> > > > > > > > in your statistics once you

learn to do this (If You are a

> > > > serious

> > > > > > > > student of Astrology and not

here just for reading your own

> > > > Chart).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > *_Some good Books_*

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Astrology of the Seers -

Frawley D.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > *The Key and Guide to Astrology

- Rapheal*

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Manual of Astrology -

Sepharial

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dynamics of Aspects analysis -

Tierney B.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Horary Astrology- Rapheal

/Simmonite W.J./Alan Leo/Jacobson

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > An introduction to Astrology -

William Lily

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > *All Books by Alan Leo*.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > *All Class Books by the

Professors of BVB, Bombay.*

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > *The Horoscope in detail by

Alan Leo and H.S.Green*

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > *Basic Astronomy for Astrologer

by Deepak Nair (Sagar Pub.)*

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > *Astronomy and Methematical

Astrology by Deepak Kapoor

> > (Ranjan

> > > > Pub).*

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Books mentioned in Bold are

those which you should begin

> > > > with,

> > > > > > > > first. And they are not Fat.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You may also look up on some

Videos on the Net for

> > understanding

> > > > > > basic

> > > > > > > > Concepts from Books which one

cannot understand through

> > Theory

> > > > > > > > readingin Books and which they

do not teach in Big Schools

> > and

> > > > > > > > universities of Astrology or

Vidyalayas. And please share

> > with

> > > > us

> > > > > > when

> > > > > > > > you get these.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > remember Knowledge Shared is

Knowledge Gained. Do not hold

> > back,

> > > > > > > > Never, when sharing what one

knows.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ancient_indian_

astrology,

> > "amit.baid"

> > > > > > > > <amit.baid@ .> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Dear Bhaskar ji,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > First I wish to understand

the actual difference between

> > > > Tropical

> > > > > > > > and Sidereal and shifting of

equinox.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Please suggest a good book

on above. REgarding symbols, no

> > > > problem

> > > > > > > > at all. I will learn that.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Regards / Amit

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_

astrology,

> > "Bhaskar"

> > > > > > > > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Dear Amit ji,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Very rarely will you

find a single Book with advantages

> > of

> > > > both

> > > > > > > > > > mentioned at one

place. Because Sidereral people

> > normally

> > > > dont

> > > > > > believe

> > > > > > > > > > in application of

Tropical and viceversa.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Its better if you

purchase some books by foreign

> > > > astrological

> > > > > > authors

> > > > > > > > > > and study on your

own. maybe in 3-4 years I may write a

> > book

> > > > > > on these,

> > > > > > > > > > but as of now, not

ready for the same. I beleieve in

> > > > application

> > > > > > > > of both

> > > > > > > > > > and do not bear any

resentments to any systems of

> > approach

> > > > in

> > > > > > > > astrology.

> > > > > > > > > > they are all leading

to the same God, be it Bhakti Yoga,

> > > > Japa

> > > > > > > > Yoga, Raj

> > > > > > > > > > Yoga, Jnana Yoga,

Karma Yoga...

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Let me know if you

require names ogf good authors. But

> > to

> > > > read and

> > > > > > > > > > udnerstand these, you

must be well versant with symbolic

> > > > > > > > representations

> > > > > > > > > > of the planets,

Houses and aspects. Nothing great about

> > > > this.

> > > > > > With few

> > > > > > > > > > weeks practise it can

be done.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > --- In

ancient_indian_ astrology,

> > > > "amit.baid"

> > > > > > > > > > <amit.baid@>

wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Learned

Fraternity,

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Kindly suggest a

good book to clarify concepts on

> > Sidereal

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > Tropical Zodiac.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Regards

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Amit

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This Message was sent from

Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New

> > > > > > Delhi, India. The information contained

in this electronic

> > message

> > > > and

> > > > > > any attachments to this message are

intended for the exclusive

> > use

> > > > of

> > > > > > the addressee(s) and may contain

proprietary, confidential or

> > > > > > privileged information. If you are not

the intended recipient,

> > you

> > > > > > should not disseminate, distribute or

copy this e-mail. Please

> > > > notify

> > > > > > the sender immediately and destroy all

copies of this message

> > and

> > > > any

> > > > > > attachments.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

April 15, 2010

Dear Sreenadh JI,

//he truth is - both

Tropical Astrology as well as Sidereal astrology was in existence from

ancient past//

Thanks for Informative articles...i am quite aware of your most

of articles there in achieve and group...and they are good piece of

sharing and shows your great efforts...I can say that you have made

platform which has good contribution and wealth of thoughts vary help

full for Astrology research person....

------------------

Regards,

Devisingh

sreesog wrote:

Dear Devi Singh ji,

//> Wrong there are people (in minority) who

care more for the fixed zodiac. The others even choose to ignore that

the first western astrologers (like Valens) used fixed zodiac. But I

will grant to Bhaskar that most are at least aware of the issue, but go

with the flow.//

I agree completely with cjjohans ji's learned opinion.

Please note that -

* Westerners (many before Ptolemy and few after Ptolemy) used fixed

zodiac. For example Hipparchus used a fixed zodiac (even though the

Ayanamsa he used was different). Actually almost all astrologers before

Ptolemy used only fixed zodiac and not the moving one. I am saying

'almost' only because, I am not certain howmany of them were aware of

or using tropical zodiac at that time. But certainly at that time as

well Tropical astrology was in existence in India (as evident from

Vedas) and was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from clay

tablets). Similarly used of Fixed zodiac (Sidereal astrology) was in

existence in India (as evident from Surya Siddhanta and ancient rishi

horas) and was in existence in Greek and many other parts of the

western land (as evident from Hipparchus works and other ancient

evidences). As cjjohans ji rightly puts it "there are people (in

minority) who care more for the fixed zodiac. The others even choose to

ignore that the first western astrologers (like Valens) used fixed

zodiac.". Right he is! The truth is - both Tropical Astrology as well

as Sidereal astrology was in existence from ancient past; both the

systems argue that one is better than the other; now we are in soup

where it is difficult to understand which statement is said related to

tropical astrology and which about sidereal astrology; the prediction

statements made by astrologers of both these systems are mixed-up that

much by the fools (like us) who followed! It is high time that this

mistake is corrected.

* When C J Johans ji states that - "most are at least aware of the

issue, but go with the flow", then I cannot but agree, because numerous

people in this group are well aware that -

1) Ancient Western astrology supported and used fixed zodiac.

Ancient Indian astrology supported and used both Tropical zodiac and

Sidereal zodiac (i.e. Vedic followers used mainly Tropical zodiac, and

Tantric followers Sidereal zodiac). The use of zodiac, Prakrit (old

Sanskrit) like Indo-European languages, fixed zodiac, idol worship etc

etc are a wide spread phenomenon spanning both Asia and European

continents. (This would be true whether we speak about Central russian

cultures, celts, sumerians, hittites, Babylonians, Crete, Minnovens,

Mesopotomians, Assyrians, Zorashtrians or what ever). Ofcourse the

same can be stated about Fir worship, Tropical zodiac etc as well. The

history is a mix, and almost everywhere you will find Fixed (Sidereal)

as well as Tropical Zodiac - in one cult or the other.

2) Most of us who practice Sidereal astrology in this group know

well that Vedas contain large amount of Tropical astrology as well. But

true, "people prefer to go with the flow"! In west - with Tropical

astrology, and in East (in India) with Sidereal astrology. We are

contaminating the directions by stating 'east' 'west' etc here Is there

other directions?! Whether there is any directions or not - the Celtic

(European), Mayan (Meso-american), Chineese (Eastern?) and

Egyptian (Western?) astrology has lost its wealthy roots and now it is

difficult to ascertain from the rudimentary fragments available, their

depth or whether they were Sidereal or Tropical in essential nature or

something else altogether!

Going with the flow is easy - but let us not loss our true

understandings about the reality while in that flow. The truth is not

for the masses, not present in the opinion of the masses; but would be

present only in the statement of the one who toiled to realize it; and

he is certain to be unacceptable and rejected; destined to be remained

with the few, the few that takes a different path!

Note: Thanks to C J Johans ji, who usually writes a few lines only, but

line that are pregnant with great understanding and knowledge. Thanks

for expressing.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

,

"cjjohans" <cjjohans wrote:

>

> th

> ,

devisigh devisingh.rajput@ wrote:

> >

> > Dear cjjohans JI,

> >

> > I was surprised since waiting does anyone knows western here

or

> > not....at least people can express what they have learned so

> > far...thanks for reply to make thread inline

> >

> > western Astrology has nothing to do with unmoving wheel....It

is all

> > about moving wheel....

>

> Wrong there are people (in minority) who care more for the fixed

zodiac. The others even choose to ignore that the first western

astrologers (like Valens) used fixed zodiac. But I will grant to

Bhaskar that most are at least aware of the issue, but go with the flow.

>

> They never used so called Nakshatra which are part

> > of fixed wheel...at least i have not encountered any use of

that

> > unmoving wheel into western moving wheel....this does not

mean that

> > unmoving wheel is superior or moving wheel superior...such

thinking are

> > absurd...

> >

> > western have provided a name Mansion...when we understand

that we find

> > that this is a 7th segment of 90 degree...It has nothing to

do with

> > Nakshatra....

> >

> Actually Westerners use both systems for mansions, so that says

something about their confusion on the issue

> http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mansionsmoon.html

>

> > Mansion start with Aries sign which is moving wheel Tropical

> > Zpdiac....28 segment are marked start with Aries for whole

360

> > degree...I do not understand as far as prediction concern

anybody can

> > not see any complimentary system as a whole...I see what is

'arc' in all

> > systems that tells why they are working since long time....

> >

> Western astrology almost went extinct in the 18th century, so I'm

not sure one can say it's working perfectly. (Of course that was not

entirely the fault of the astrology, the increased science happened

too.)

>

> > Nakshatra from sidereal system is Moola then as per western

Mansion

> > would be nearly more then 2-3 from that...since they consider

28 and

> > segment are different...and yes momement in equinox

makes difference

> > again there.....

> >

> > ------------------

> > Regards,

> > Devisingh

> >

> > Bhaskar wrote:

> > >

> > > I am studying this since last 2 Years so am qualified to

say that they

> > > KNOW. Those who are not using it, is for the simple

reasons which also

> > > matches what most of Indian astrologers too do, that is,

take the easy

> > > way out, and read results of planets in signs or houses,

from Linda

> > > Goodmans, or other books in India, which requires no

study to be done

> > > BUT just simple verbal recitation from books to be done.

> > >

> > > <%40>,

"cjjohans"

> > > <cjjohans@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Most Westerners don't use stars or nakshatras at

all. They think on

> > > average the tropical is more "scientific" as opposed to

religious or

> > > mystical. Ptolemy (a scientist who believed astrology is

just a weather

> > > effect) was the first to use tropical.

> > > >

> > > <%40>,

"Bhaskar"

> > > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > The Westerners are quite aware of the Fixed

Stars of the Zodiac like

> > > the

> > > > > Chitra or the Spica which is considered to be

most fortunate in both

> > > > > systems. Every Nakshatra of ours has been

given a corresponding name

> > > by

> > > > > the Westerners through their own approach of

loacting these in the

> > > > > skies.

> > > > >

> > > > > regards/Bhaskar.

> > > > >

April 15, 2010

, devisigh <devisingh.rajput

wrote:

>

> Dear cjjohans JI,

>

> //Wrong there are people (in minority) who care more for the fixed zodiac.//

> I am aware of fact that much work was done related to sidereal

> zodiac...that is more academic either motive is research ...we may

> consider frawley or Fagan...or else...

> What the emphasis they pointed out is Consider Moon as central

> Idea......and Orbit of Moon too become important....

Not at all, the siderealists use solar returns (varshapala) as almost the only

technique. If you want to know more you can read here

http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/

(I am not one of them.)

>

> I have not encountered yet in modern western system to use Nakshatra is

> sense they are used in India....i am not against using or not aware

> (rather they have done much work)...

> Prediction done by using Sign alone without considering

> Nakshatra.....(but the concept seems to me is Sideral Time)...

>

I agree that they don't directly correspond to Indian nakshatras but are very

close. The Chinese use 28 mansions too. In the Indian system there has to be an

intercalary nakshatra to make it equal (Abhjit).

There is an additional 28th intercalary nakshatra, Abhijit

( & #2309; & #2349; & #2367; & #2332; & #2367; & #2340;)( & #945;, & #949; and & #950; Lyrae -

Vega - between Uttarasharha and Sravana). Its longitude starts from 06° 40' to

10° 53' 40 in sidereal Capricorn i.e. from the last quarter of Uttra Ashadha to

first 1/15 th part of Shravana. Its span is 4° 13' 40 (4.22777... degrees). The

span of 27 mean daily lunar motions totals 355.76167 degrees, and together these

total 359.98945 degrees. Unless specifically mentioned it is not included in the

list of the 27 constellations. It is held as an auspicious constellation in

electional astrology. It is small (Laghu / Kshipra) in nature. The lord of

Abhijit is Brahma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakshatra

But so what if they are not exactly nakshatras. That only proves that the

nakshatras at least are sidereal.

> // Actually Westerners use both systems for mansions, so that says

> something about their confusion on the issue

> <http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mansionsmoon.html>I am mentioned

> same system....using Tropical ephemeris....Syderal system is not there

> of 27 Nakshatra....see text from link....

>

" Sidereal zodiac " to me is fixed and based on stars and constellations and that

is discussed in the context of mansions, it does not have to be about

nakshatras. You said yourself earlier it's about fixed vs. movable.

> Also see link and how chart has been casted by them and what that book

> is for...casting of chart is using Tropical

>

> http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/silver26thmansiontalisman.html

> It refer to segment 26 which i mentioned ....(26. Alpharg or Phragol

> Mocaden, 21 Aquarius 25 to 4 Pisces 17 )...using Tropical

> <http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mansionsmoon.html>

>

Obviously if the site owner says " Despite the effectiveness and accuracy of the

Tropical Zodiac, many moderns reject it on philosophical grounds because they

feel it does not correspond to the " real stars " " , would he then use something

else than tropical? He is biased to the tropical and is describing the opinions

of others. I don't see what that has to do with they are in general somewhat

confused on the issue.

April 15, 2010

Dear cjjohans JI,

//Not at all, the siderealists use solar returns (varshapala) as almost

the only technique. If you want to know more you can read here//

Thanks for sharing links....i am aware

Infact Fagan ayanmsa (derived from facts of 786 lucky number and other

rationals)....is close to chandrahari ayanmsa (which is derived from

surya siddhant)...

so that provide close to sidereal positions...i am not much aware of

their teaching how they used with western but personally i am too

using that for my research purpose with placidus and ascendence as

start of house....

------------------

Regards,

Devisingh

cjjohans wrote:

,

devisigh <devisingh.rajput wrote:

>

> Dear cjjohans JI,

>

> //Wrong there are people (in minority) who care more for the fixed

zodiac.//

> I am aware of fact that much work was done related to sidereal

> zodiac...that is more academic either motive is research ...we may

> consider frawley or Fagan...or else...

> What the emphasis they pointed out is Consider Moon as central

> Idea......and Orbit of Moon too become important....

Not at all, the siderealists use solar returns (varshapala) as almost

the only technique. If you want to know more you can read here

http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/

(I am not one of them.)

>

> I have not encountered yet in modern western system to use

Nakshatra is

> sense they are used in India....i am not against using or not

aware

> (rather they have done much work)...

> Prediction done by using Sign alone without considering

> Nakshatra.....(but the concept seems to me is Sideral Time)...

>

I agree that they don't directly correspond to Indian nakshatras but

are very close. The Chinese use 28 mansions too. In the Indian system

there has to be an intercalary nakshatra to make it equal (Abhjit).

There is an additional 28th intercalary nakshatra, Abhijit

( & #2309; & #2349; & #2367; & #2332; & #2367; & #2340;)( & #945;,

& #949; and & #950; Lyrae - Vega - between Uttarasharha and

Sravana). Its longitude starts from 06° 40' to 10° 53' 40 in sidereal

Capricorn i.e. from the last quarter of Uttra Ashadha to first 1/15 th

part of Shravana. Its span is 4° 13' 40 (4.22777... degrees). The span

of 27 mean daily lunar motions totals 355.76167 degrees, and together

these total 359.98945 degrees. Unless specifically mentioned it is not

included in the list of the 27 constellations. It is held as an

auspicious constellation in electional astrology. It is small (Laghu /

Kshipra) in nature. The lord of Abhijit is Brahma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakshatra

But so what if they are not exactly nakshatras. That only proves that

the nakshatras at least are sidereal.

> // Actually Westerners use both systems for mansions, so that says

> something about their confusion on the issue

> <http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mansionsmoon.html>I

am mentioned

> same system....using Tropical ephemeris....Syderal system is

not there

> of 27 Nakshatra....see text from link....

>

"Sidereal zodiac" to me is fixed and based on stars and constellations

and that is discussed in the context of mansions, it does not have to

be about nakshatras. You said yourself earlier it's about fixed vs.

movable.

> Also see link and how chart has been casted by them and what that

book

> is for...casting of chart is using Tropical

>

> http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/silver26thmansiontalisman.html

> It refer to segment 26 which i mentioned ....(26. Alpharg or

Phragol

> Mocaden, 21 Aquarius 25 to 4 Pisces 17 )...using Tropical

> <http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/mansionsmoon.html>

>

Obviously if the site owner says "Despite the effectiveness and

accuracy of the Tropical Zodiac, many moderns reject it on

philosophical grounds because they feel it does not correspond to the

"real stars"", would he then use something else than tropical? He is

biased to the tropical and is describing the opinions of others. I

don't see what that has to do with they are in general somewhat

confused on the issue.

April 15, 2010

Dear Devi Singh ji, Thanks for the appreciation, even though I don't deserve it much currently due to the large amount of pending work. I haven't done even 5% of what I could have done within this time span! The common life chores takes the time, and I don't dare enough to live that professional life (that provides study income) behind and take-up and pursue my research and contribution to ancient indian astrology. I am yet to express in English even 5% of rare information I already have with me. God willing, in due time I would be able to present it in English before all for the benefit of posterity. Let us hope that it would be done, with the blessings of all.Note: Let the earth be my guru, let the water be my guru Let wind, fire, consciousness, ego, information, mind be my gurus Let the waves, the sea, the sky and the whole world be my guru Let everything arise awake becomes lively and become informative Let everything be the guru for me and let everything become a knowledge source for me. (A rough translation of a stanza written by a 19th century mystic sage "Sri Narayana Guru" of Kerala) I humbly bow to everything........ let knowledge prevail.....at the end of the day it is the eternal knowledge source (like Sun) that prevail and everything living die to be recycled..Love and regards,Sreenadh , devisigh <devisingh.rajput wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh JI,> > //he truth is - both Tropical Astrology as well as Sidereal astrology > was in existence from ancient past//> Thanks for Informative articles...i am quite aware of your most of > articles there in achieve and group...and they are good piece of sharing > and shows your great efforts...I can say that you have made platform > which has good contribution and wealth of thoughts vary help full for > Astrology research person....> > ------------------> Regards,> Devisingh

April 15, 2010

Dear CJ Johans ji,//> I have thought the calendar was lunisolar, so they used intercalation to make it agree with the equinoctical events// That understanding is only minimal. In vedic period many types of calendars existed - solar, lunar, luni-solar and much more. The following links could be useful. 1) Vedic Month Names (written by me) 2) Various Calendars of Ancient India (Written by Sunil Nair)//> If there was a tropial zodiac in use, why not have 12 or at least 4

events. Isn't there actually just one event (makar sankranti). // Again wrong understanding. All the 4 cardinal points were in use, revered and was/is associated with one festival or the other in the whole of India. Forget the names like 'Makara sankranti' (the oldness of that word is debatable). Instead look for the local year beginnings and the festivals such as Chaitradi, Vaisakhi, Lodhi, Ugadi, Ponkal, Vishu etc etc. You will note that some of the festivals are connected with Winter solstice, some with Vernal equinox, some with summer solstice, some with autumnal equinox. All four cardinal points are referred to associated with various Yagas and other celebrations from the far ancient vedic period itself or before. //Also if it was a tropical zodiac, why would one celebrate entrance into a

malefic sign. Maybe it just got that name because they agreed at some point.// Please note that - 1) In India SIGNS (such as Mesha etc) are definitely connected with Sidereal zodiac and NOT Tropical zodiac. 2) The indian Tropical Astrology utilizes cardinal points, Ephemeris, Muhurta etc etc but NOT Signs. 3) Use of SIGNS as Tropical is clearly a WESTERN concept came into existence after Ptolemy and is not at all an Indian concept. 4) Festivals connected with Nirayana fiducial points (at 0 deg, 60 deg, 120 deg, 180 deg, 240 deg, 300 deg etc) can have other relevant reasoning other than associating them with cardinal points. The above doubt expressed by you comes from not understanding the above points correctly. //Maybe it just got that name because they agreed at some point.// The word Maraka sankranti is misnomer when used in Tropical astrological context. In indian context the first reference to Meshadi sign names we see in texts like Atharva Vedanga Jyotisha, Boudhayana sutra etc. It is not necessary that in all these places it is used in Tropical astrological context; when seen against the fact that Nakshatra Chakra used in them is sidereal, it becomes clear that the SIGNS mentioned in them must also be Sidereal itself (and not Tropical). In the oldest ancient indian references the prime mention we find is that Mesha (Aries) and not of Makara (Capricon); compared to Mesha as Zodiac beginning (since the hypothetical/mathematical 7-planet conjunction in Mesha at the start of Mahayuga), the argument put forward by some new comers (who mixes eastern and western) that Capricorn was the oldest considered year beginning point is not much supported by evidence. //>>> (Tropical Zodiac) was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from clay tablets). I'm afraid only in the imaginations of certain tropicalists. Read the archeology instead.// Certainly some zodiac with SIGNS was in existence for sure; but again I agree that whether it was Tropical or Sidereal is an arguable point. And since the SIGN SHAPES (star shapes) are clearly Sidereal the chances are that that the Zodiac used by them could also be Sidereal as well. Anyway, I am not an expert to comment on ancient Babylonian or Hellenistic astrology. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "cjjohans" <cjjohans wrote:>> > > , "sreesog" sreesog@ wrote:> >> But certainly at that time as well> > Tropical astrology was in existence in India (as evident from Vedas) > > I have thought the calendar was lunisolar, so they used intercalation to make it agree with the equinoctical events (I don't say ingress).> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunisolar_calendar> > If there was a tropial zodiac in use, why not have 12 or at least 4 events. Isn't there actually just one event (makar sankranti). Also if it was a tropical zodiac, why would one celebrate entrance into a malefic sign. Maybe it just got that name because they agreed at some point.> > and> > was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from clay tablets).> > I'm afraid only in the imaginations of certain tropicalists. Read the archeology instead.> > Similarly> > used of Fixed zodiac (Sidereal astrology) was in existence in India (as> > evident from Surya Siddhanta and ancient rishi horas) and was in> > existence in Greek and many other parts of the western land (as evident> > from Hipparchus works and other ancient evidences). As cjjohans ji> > rightly puts it "there are people (in minority) who care more for the> > fixed zodiac. The others even choose to ignore that the first western > > astrologers (like Valens) used fixed zodiac.". Right he is! The truth is> > - both Tropical Astrology as well as Sidereal astrology was in existence> > from ancient past; both the systems argue that one is better than the> > other; now we are in soup where it is difficult to understand which> > statement is said related to tropical astrology and which about sidereal> > astrology; the prediction statements made by astrologers of both these> > systems are mixed-up that much by the fools (like us) who followed! It> > is high time that this mistake is corrected.>

April 15, 2010

Dear Sreenadh ji,

At times your statements are lovable, like this one..

" Anyway, I am not an expert to comment on ancient Babylonian or Hellenistic astrology. "

You made me laugh with this. (In Bombay we are much ultra sophisiticated unlike you delhi people. When we laugh we dont make a sound, but our laughter is silent because laughing and making a sound is considered a sin and village like o'er here).

Well i wanted to say, that You can comment on anything. You are capable enough to do that. And you will also make it souund convincing. And nobody can say that You are Not an Expert.

Love and regards,

Bhaskar.

, "sreesog" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear CJ Johans ji,> //> I have thought the calendar was lunisolar, so they used > intercalation to make it agree with the equinoctical events//> That understanding is only minimal. In vedic period many types of> calendars existed - solar, lunar, luni-solar and much more. The> following links could be useful.> 1) Vedic Month Names> <http://www.nastrology.com/cmsa/index.php?option=com_content\> & view=article & id=115:vedic-month-names & catid=38:sayana-jyotisha & Itemid=6\> 0> (written by me)> 2) Various Calendars of Ancient India> <http://www.nastrology.com/cmsa/index.php?option=com_content\> & view=article & id=90:various-calendars-of-ancient-india & catid=41:ancient-\> astronomy & Itemid=71> (Written by Sunil Nair)> //> If there was a tropial zodiac in use, why not have 12 or at least 4 > events. Isn't there actually just one event (makar sankranti). //> Again wrong understanding. All the 4 cardinal points were in use,> revered and was/is associated with one festival or the other in the> whole of India. Forget the names like 'Makara sankranti' (the oldness> of that word is debatable). Instead look for the local year beginnings> and the festivals such as Chaitradi, Vaisakhi, Lodhi, Ugadi, Ponkal,> Vishu etc etc. You will note that some of the festivals are connected> with Winter solstice, some with Vernal equinox, some with summer> solstice, some with autumnal equinox. All four cardinal points are> referred to associated with various Yagas and other celebrations from> the far ancient vedic period itself or before.> //Also if it was a tropical zodiac, why would one celebrate entrance> into a malefic sign. Maybe it just got that name because they agreed at> some point.//> Please note that -> 1) In India SIGNS (such as Mesha etc) are definitely connected with> Sidereal zodiac and NOT Tropical zodiac.> 2) The indian Tropical Astrology utilizes cardinal points, Ephemeris,> Muhurta etc etc but NOT Signs.> 3) Use of SIGNS as Tropical is clearly a WESTERN concept came into> existence after Ptolemy and is not at all an Indian concept.> 4) Festivals connected with Nirayana fiducial points (at 0 deg, 60> deg, 120 deg, 180 deg, 240 deg, 300 deg etc) can have other relevant> reasoning other than associating them with cardinal points.> The above doubt expressed by you comes from not understanding the> above points correctly.> //Maybe it just got that name because they agreed at some point.//> The word Maraka sankranti is misnomer when used in Tropical> astrological context. In indian context the first reference to Meshadi> sign names we see in texts like Atharva Vedanga Jyotisha, Boudhayana> sutra etc. It is not necessary that in all these places it is used in> Tropical astrological context; when seen against the fact that Nakshatra> Chakra used in them is sidereal, it becomes clear that the SIGNS> mentioned in them must also be Sidereal itself (and not Tropical). In> the oldest ancient indian references the prime mention we find is that> Mesha (Aries) and not of Makara (Capricon); compared to Mesha as Zodiac> beginning (since the hypothetical/mathematical 7-planet conjunction in> Mesha at the start of Mahayuga), the argument put forward by some new> comers (who mixes eastern and western) that Capricorn was the oldest> considered year beginning point is not much supported by evidence.> //>>> (Tropical Zodiac) was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from> clay tablets).> I'm afraid only in the imaginations of certain tropicalists. Read the> archeology instead.//> Certainly some zodiac with SIGNS was in existence for sure; but again> I agree that whether it was Tropical or Sidereal is an arguable point.> And since the SIGN SHAPES (star shapes) are clearly Sidereal the chances> are that that the Zodiac used by them could also be Sidereal as well.> Anyway, I am not an expert to comment on ancient Babylonian or> Hellenistic astrology.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "cjjohans"> cjjohans@ wrote:> >> >> >> > , "sreesog" sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > But certainly at that time as well> > > Tropical astrology was in existence in India (as evident from Vedas)> >> > I have thought the calendar was lunisolar, so they used intercalation> to make it agree with the equinoctical events (I don't say ingress).> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunisolar_calendar> >> > If there was a tropial zodiac in use, why not have 12 or at least 4> events. Isn't there actually just one event (makar sankranti). Also if> it was a tropical zodiac, why would one celebrate entrance into a> malefic sign. Maybe it just got that name because they agreed at some> point.> >> > and> > > was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from clay tablets).> >> > I'm afraid only in the imaginations of certain tropicalists. Read the> archeology instead.> >> > Similarly> > > used of Fixed zodiac (Sidereal astrology) was in existence in India> (as> > > evident from Surya Siddhanta and ancient rishi horas) and was in> > > existence in Greek and many other parts of the western land (as> evident> > > from Hipparchus works and other ancient evidences). As cjjohans ji> > > rightly puts it "there are people (in minority) who care more for> the> > > fixed zodiac. The others even choose to ignore that the first> western> > > astrologers (like Valens) used fixed zodiac.". Right he is! The> truth is> > > - both Tropical Astrology as well as Sidereal astrology was in> existence> > > from ancient past; both the systems argue that one is better than> the> > > other; now we are in soup where it is difficult to understand which> > > statement is said related to tropical astrology and which about> sidereal> > > astrology; the prediction statements made by astrologers of both> these> > > systems are mixed-up that much by the fools (like us) who followed!> It> > > is high time that this mistake is corrected.> >>

April 15, 2010

, " sreesog " <sreesog wrote:

>

Good points I will read some of that. Just some points below

In

> the oldest ancient indian references the prime mention we find is that

> Mesha (Aries) and not of Makara (Capricon); compared to Mesha as Zodiac

> beginning (since the hypothetical/mathematical 7-planet conjunction in

> Mesha at the start of Mahayuga), the argument put forward by some new

> comers (who mixes eastern and western) that Capricorn was the oldest

> considered year beginning point is not much supported by evidence.

I don't have an opinion either way. But since the 7-planet conjunction is

hypothethical one can argue differently too. It occurs to me that consideration

of Winter Solstice would make the present position in the sidereal " Great Year "

(Sagittarius) correspond to the dakshinayana autumn months in the solar year

(only the direction is reversed) as seems appropriate for kali yuga. Also it

would begin in the region of the traditional date if it begins at entrance into

sidereal Capricorn (2000-3000 BC). But no book supports such ideas of course.

> //>>> (Tropical Zodiac) was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from

> clay tablets).

> I'm afraid only in the imaginations of certain tropicalists. Read the

> archeology instead.//

> Certainly some zodiac with SIGNS was in existence for sure; but again

> I agree that whether it was Tropical or Sidereal is an arguable point.

The argument for tropical is just in some of the (primitive) mathematics used.

It's most likely only a mathematical shortcut. All the recorded positions are

sidereal, see Rochberg Babylonian Horoscopes for example.

http://books.google.fi/books?id=dSELAAAAIAAJ & printsec=frontcover & dq=rochberg+bab\

ylonian+horoscopes & source=bl & ots=LT2FyNc07F & sig=dCAf2oR7ZwzAEpWDDzDJpYbMiGA & hl=f\

i & ei=ufPGS8OTMN-UOPv_uNQM & sa=X & oi=book_result & ct=result & resnum=1 & ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA\

#v=onepage & q & f=false

April 15, 2010

In the ancient times, it was neither purely sidereal or purely tropical.It was

coordinative of both.The star position also represented the season positioning.

This was possible because the difference was little. But more important of

all, is that because the dates were lunar or better solilunar. In a soli-lunar

system, we can have the lunar dates represent the seasons correctly for even

about two thousand years.This is our vedic system too to have coordination of

the tropical and the sidereal dates by the lunar tithi.These three types of

dates are coordinated. But people who do not understand this sense, would like

to think that the dates are tropcial, sidereal and luanar as separate or

independant systems. They were never actually separate or better, even if

separately assumed, they were coordinated as a necessary condition.

Hari Malla

, " cjjohans " <cjjohans

wrote:

>

> , " sreesog " <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> Good points I will read some of that. Just some points below

>

> In

> > the oldest ancient indian references the prime mention we find is that

> > Mesha (Aries) and not of Makara (Capricon); compared to Mesha as Zodiac

> > beginning (since the hypothetical/mathematical 7-planet conjunction in

> > Mesha at the start of Mahayuga), the argument put forward by some new

> > comers (who mixes eastern and western) that Capricorn was the oldest

> > considered year beginning point is not much supported by evidence.

>

> I don't have an opinion either way. But since the 7-planet conjunction is

hypothethical one can argue differently too. It occurs to me that consideration

of Winter Solstice would make the present position in the sidereal " Great Year "

(Sagittarius) correspond to the dakshinayana autumn months in the solar year

(only the direction is reversed) as seems appropriate for kali yuga. Also it

would begin in the region of the traditional date if it begins at entrance into

sidereal Capricorn (2000-3000 BC). But no book supports such ideas of course.

>

> > //>>> (Tropical Zodiac) was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from

> > clay tablets).

> > I'm afraid only in the imaginations of certain tropicalists. Read the

> > archeology instead.//

> > Certainly some zodiac with SIGNS was in existence for sure; but again

> > I agree that whether it was Tropical or Sidereal is an arguable point.

>

> The argument for tropical is just in some of the (primitive) mathematics used.

It's most likely only a mathematical shortcut. All the recorded positions are

sidereal, see Rochberg Babylonian Horoscopes for example.

>

http://books.google.fi/books?id=dSELAAAAIAAJ & printsec=frontcover & dq=rochberg+bab\

ylonian+horoscopes & source=bl & ots=LT2FyNc07F & sig=dCAf2oR7ZwzAEpWDDzDJpYbMiGA & hl=f\

i & ei=ufPGS8OTMN-UOPv_uNQM & sa=X & oi=book_result & ct=result & resnum=1 & ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA\

#v=onepage & q & f=false

>

April 15, 2010

Dear CJ Johans ji,//> I don't have an opinion either way. But since the 7-planet conjunction is hypothethical one can argue differently too.// No - because both the oldest texts on mathematical astronomy (i.e. Surya Siddhanta and Brahma Siddhanta) refer to the use of Ayanamsa. The ancient Surya Siddhanta text is available to us in 2 versions (one as included in Pancha Siddhantika and the other one with the name Surya Siddhanta itself) and the reference quote from ancient Brahma Siddhanta that refers to Ayanamsa use is also available to us. And for both these text the Sign counting starts from Mesha (Aries) and not from Makara (Capricorn). Actually NONE of the ancient "astrological" texts asks us to start counting signs from Makara (Capricorn). Even if we consider astronomical texts, other texts etc as well then too we can make such as "interpretation" based on references that could have been interpreted in other ways as well. Thus the logical ground evidence for such an argument seems to be feeble.//It occurs to me that consideration of Winter Solstice would make the present position in the sidereal "Great Year" (Sagittarius) correspond to the dakshinayana autumn months in the solar year (only the direction is reversed) as seems appropriate for kali yuga. Also it would begin in the region of the traditional date if it begins at entrance into sidereal Capricorn (2000-3000 BC). But no book supports such ideas of course.// There are multiple problems with the above argument, one which you have already identified - i.e. "no book supports such ideas". Let me give you one more reason. The meaning of the word "Uttarayana" and "Dakshinayana" was different in the ancient past. I mean now the word Uttarayana (travel towards north) mean "movement of sun from winter solstice to summer solstice", but the ancient meaning of this word was "movement of sun in northern hemisphere; i.e. movement of sun from autumnal equinox to vernal equinox". (Similarly for the word 'Dakshinayana' as well) Balagnagadhara Tilak has discussed the same in detail providing numerous references, logic and evidences. I agree with him. In the light of the above two points, your argument cripples, since we are NOT trying to invent a new system, but only to understand the old system that was in existence. // The argument for tropical is just in some of the (primitive) mathematics used. It's most likely only a mathematical shortcut. All the

recorded positions are sidereal, see Rochberg Babylonian Horoscopes for

example.// Thanks for the info and link. I will go through that. But certainly the statement "All the

recorded positions are sidereal" is much interesting and informative. A special thanks for the same. :)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "cjjohans" <cjjohans wrote:>> > > , "sreesog" sreesog@ wrote:> >> Good points I will read some of that. Just some points below> > In> > the oldest ancient indian references the prime mention we find is that> > Mesha (Aries) and not of Makara (Capricon); compared to Mesha as Zodiac> > beginning (since the hypothetical/mathematical 7-planet conjunction in> > Mesha at the start of Mahayuga), the argument put forward by some new> > comers (who mixes eastern and western) that Capricorn was the oldest> > considered year beginning point is not much supported by evidence.> > I don't have an opinion either way. But since the 7-planet conjunction is hypothethical one can argue differently too. It occurs to me that consideration of Winter Solstice would make the present position in the sidereal "Great Year" (Sagittarius) correspond to the dakshinayana autumn months in the solar year (only the direction is reversed) as seems appropriate for kali yuga. Also it would begin in the region of the traditional date if it begins at entrance into sidereal Capricorn (2000-3000 BC). But no book supports such ideas of course.> > > > //>>> (Tropical Zodiac) was in existence in Babylonia (as evident from> > clay tablets).> > I'm afraid only in the imaginations of certain tropicalists. Read the> > archeology instead.//> > Certainly some zodiac with SIGNS was in existence for sure; but again> > I agree that whether it was Tropical or Sidereal is an arguable point.> > The argument for tropical is just in some of the (primitive) mathematics used. It's most likely only a mathematical shortcut. All the recorded positions are sidereal, see Rochberg Babylonian Horoscopes for example.> http://books.google.fi/books?id=dSELAAAAIAAJ & printsec=frontcover & dq=rochberg+babylonian+horoscopes & source=bl & ots=LT2FyNc07F & sig=dCAf2oR7ZwzAEpWDDzDJpYbMiGA & hl=fi & ei=ufPGS8OTMN-UOPv_uNQM & sa=X & oi=book_result & ct=result & resnum=1 & ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage & q & f=false>

April 15, 2010

Dear Bhaskar ji,//> Well i wanted to say, that You can comment on anything. You are capable> enough to do that. And you will also make it sound convincing. And> nobody can say that You are Not an Expert.// Ha..Ha.. You made me laugh.. Anyway 'sound convincing' (sounding like and expert) and 'being an expert' is entirely different. The truth is that I am NOT an expert in Babylonian or Hellenistic astrology (even though I love to be), that is the field for someone like Robert Hand. If I try to attain expertise in Hellenistic astrology, then I will have to learn Greek language (both ancient and modern) and will have to collect, interpret, categorize, arrange, translate all the ancient resources available to the same will have to give emphasis to the original contribution of "Greek Sages" as I am doing with ancient indina astrology. The chances are that not even the current day followers of western astrology will not be with me, and will definitely reject me; because true study is not to convince anyone else but to know the truth oneself, and convince oneself (that what he came to know is right). Learning Babylonian or Hellenistic astrology is nearly a life time job for sincere ones; and so is ancient indian astrology. Since I have only one life-time to spare and since I have already chose ancient indian astrology, Babylonian or Hellenistic astrology is bound to escape my grips. At least I shouldn't allow that to happen with ancient indian astrology. Any way - at least I can have a try. Let us hope that God willing I may attain expertise in it one day (as of now it can't be said). Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > At times your statements are lovable, like this one..> > " Anyway, I am not an expert to comment on ancient Babylonian or> Hellenistic astrology. "> > You made me laugh with this. (In Bombay we are much ultra sophisiticated> unlike you delhi people. When we laugh we dont make a sound, but our> laughter is silent because laughing and making a sound is considered a> sin and village like o'er here).> > Well i wanted to say, that You can comment on anything. You are capable> enough to do that. And you will also make it souund convincing. And> nobody can say that You are Not an Expert.> > Love and regards,> > Bhaskar.

April 16, 2010

Dear CJ Johans ji and all, Thanks for reference to the book "Babylonian Horoscopes" by Francesca Rochberg. I have converted that Google Book into pdf and uploaded in AIA website. The download link is: Babylonian Horoscopes Download Link //certainly the statement "All the recorded positions are sidereal" is much interesting and informative.// And it would be evident to anyone who reads this book. Let me provide you all with some interesting info -* The above book contains Babylonian horoscopes. Actually the terminology is wrong, it is better to call them 'Parthian horoscopes'; since those horoscopes comes from Parthia (Persia/Iran) and the period of those horoscopes range from BC 410 to BC 65. This is the period of scholars like Vishnu Gupta (Chanakya) who wrote great astrological texts like "Vishnu gupta hora" in India. This is the period of AFTER the period of Sages like Skanda/Vasishta/Kusika/Sounaka/Garga etc (numerous references texts of whom and the quotes are available to us). By that time in Ancient India sidereal astrology has flourished to the maximum and had already started to decline. From indian astrological history perspective this was the period of scholars like Vishnu Gupta, Satyacharya, Jeevasarma etc etc. Ancient India had high connections with Parthia (let us remember that 'Parthiva' is a Prakrit/Sanskrit word meaning "King of earth"; "Parthia" means "land of the king"), and during some of this period part of this land was under the control of Mourya Kings like "Chandra Gupta Maurya". So from the Indian perspective we don't have any wonder in finding "Sidereal Astrology" in Parthia (Iran) during this period even though with some minor differences imparted by geographical difference. But the western scholars are still wondering whether this astrology is Sidereal, Tropical, eastern or western and trying hard to connect it all with the absurd corruptions to the ancient sidereal system (as followed by Hipparchus) done by Ptolamy by making it Tropical. But certainly if the astrology was of Parthia then chances are that it might have more connection with the Indian systems than with the Ptolamy astrology (read Western Tropical astrology). Let us try verify this hypothesis based on some simple inputs - * "Bit Nisirti" (Secret house?): Rochberg writes - "The statement was the native was born in the 'Secret House' of a particular planet is found in a number of horoscopes. Where as the translation of this line is straight forward enough, its meaning is utterly obscure". You all will laugh at this statement if you know which are the "Bit Nisirti" of some of the planets. "Bit Nisirti" for Mercury is Virgo and for Venus is Pisces. Is it not well evident that "Bit Nisirti" simply means "Exaltation" ('Uccha' in Sanskrit)?! And still they and finding it difficult to identify such simple correlations/interpretations! Instead of simply identifying Sun's "Bit Nisirti" (Exaltation) as 10 deg Sidereal Mesha (Aries), they are trying to connect it with Ptolemaic Greek exaltation degree assigned to Sun i.e. 19 deg! * Let us take one of the oldest horoscope given in that book and try to correlate what they say (JHora is an excellent tool in this context). For example one horoscope translation reads - "Nisannu, Night of the 14th, son of Sumu-Usur, son of Sumu-idina, descendant of Deke was born. At that time, the Moon was below (lit. the lower part of) the Pincer of the Scorpion, Jupiter in Pisces, Venus in Taurus, Saturn in Cancer, Mars in Gemini, Mercury which had set was not visible. Nisannu 1 (duration of visibility of the new crescent was ) 28 (time degrees), visibility of the moon after sunrise on) the 14th was 4,40 (time degrees). The last visibility of the lunar crescent was the 27th". Huh! That seems to be a good effort! Let us translate it to our normal ancient indian astrological terms - "In the lunar month of Vaisakha ('Nisannu' is a luni-solar month; solar Taurus; Vrishabha), in night of the 14th (i.e. Sun is in 14th degree), son of Sumu Asura and Sumu-idina and the descendant of Deka was born. At that time the Moon was in the second Hora of Scorpio (Vrischika), Jupiter was in Pisces (Meena), Venus in Taurus (Vrishabha), Saturn in Cancer (Karkataka), Mars in Gemini and Mercury was in Asta (i.e. in 12th house; set house that is not visible) from Sun." (About the translation of the remaining part I am doubtful and so I stop here). This chart is true for 26th April -409 (BC ), put any night time (e.g. 8 PM) as birth time and any place in Iran (e.g. Abnuh) as place of birth. You will see that this chart is very correct as per Sidereal Zodiac. The said book contains several such charts and natal predictions. I am giving this just as an example to show that what CJ Johans ji told in this group could be very true and evidence based.Love and regards,Sreenadh

April 17, 2010

Dear Sreenadh JI,

I have converted that google book link to pdf...seems interesting to

study....now you shared else i was going to do that today

//chart is true for 26th

April -409 (BC ), put any night time (e.g. 8 PM) //

I have tried to cast charts and match positions of planets as depicted

in book for some examples....but position of Moon and Ma,Me ..are

different...I mean all planet are not matching with same degree as

provided in book......It seems that eperium used may be diffrent as

books says that babylonian are following lunar calender.....can you

please comment how to get that exact planet...can we adjust speed of

planet as per our desire in JHora??

------------------

Regards,

Devisingh

sreesog wrote:

Dear CJ Johans ji and

all,

Thanks for reference to the book "Babylonian Horoscopes" by

Francesca Rochberg. I have converted that Google Book into pdf and

uploaded in AIA website. The download link is:

Babylonian Horoscopes Download Link

//certainly the statement "All the recorded

positions are sidereal" is much interesting and informative.//

And it would be evident to anyone who reads this book. Let me provide

you all with some interesting info -

* The above book contains Babylonian horoscopes. Actually the

terminology is wrong, it is better to call them 'Parthian horoscopes';

since those horoscopes comes from Parthia (Persia/Iran) and the period

of those horoscopes range from BC 410 to BC 65. This is the period of

scholars like Vishnu Gupta (Chanakya) who wrote great astrological

texts like "Vishnu gupta hora" in India. This is the period of AFTER

the period of Sages like Skanda/Vasishta/Kusika/Sounaka/Garga

etc (numerous references texts of whom and the quotes are available to

us). By that time in Ancient India sidereal astrology has flourished to

the maximum and had already started to decline. From indian

astrological history perspective this was the period of scholars like

Vishnu Gupta, Satyacharya, Jeevasarma etc etc. Ancient India had high

connections with Parthia (let us remember that 'Parthiva' is a

Prakrit/Sanskrit word meaning "King of earth"; "Parthia" means "land of

the king"), and during some of this period part of this land was under

the control of Mourya Kings like "Chandra Gupta Maurya". So from the

Indian perspective we don't have any wonder in finding "Sidereal

Astrology" in Parthia (Iran) during this period even though with some

minor differences imparted by geographical difference. But the western

scholars are still wondering whether this astrology is Sidereal,

Tropical, eastern or western and trying hard to connect it all with the

absurd corruptions to the ancient sidereal system (as followed by

Hipparchus) done by Ptolamy by making it Tropical. But certainly if the

astrology was of Parthia then chances are that it might have more

connection with the Indian systems than with the Ptolamy astrology

(read Western Tropical astrology). Let us try verify this hypothesis

based on some simple inputs -

* "Bit Nisirti" (Secret house?): Rochberg writes - "The statement was

the native was born in the 'Secret House' of a particular planet is

found in a number of horoscopes. Where as the translation of this line

is straight forward enough, its meaning is utterly obscure". You all

will laugh at this statement if you know which are the "Bit Nisirti" of

some of the planets. "Bit Nisirti" for Mercury is Virgo and for Venus

is Pisces. Is it not well evident that "Bit Nisirti" simply means

"Exaltation" ('Uccha' in Sanskrit)?! And still they and finding it

difficult to identify such simple correlations/interpretations!

Instead of simply identifying Sun's "Bit Nisirti" (Exaltation) as 10

deg Sidereal Mesha (Aries), they are trying to connect it with

Ptolemaic Greek exaltation degree assigned to Sun i.e. 19 deg!

* Let us take one of the oldest horoscope given in that book and try

to correlate what they say (JHora is an excellent tool in this

context). For example one horoscope translation reads - "Nisannu,

Night of the 14th, son of Sumu-Usur, son of Sumu-idina, descendant of

Deke was born. At that time, the Moon was below (lit. the lower part

of) the Pincer of the Scorpion, Jupiter in Pisces, Venus in Taurus,

Saturn in Cancer, Mars in Gemini, Mercury which had set was not

visible. Nisannu 1 (duration of visibility of the new crescent was ) 28

(time degrees), visibility of the moon after sunrise on) the 14th was

4,40 (time degrees). The last visibility of the lunar crescent was the

27th".

Huh! That seems to be a good effort! Let us translate it to our

normal ancient indian astrological terms - "In the lunar month of

Vaisakha ('Nisannu' is a luni-solar month; solar Taurus; Vrishabha), in

night of the 14th (i.e. Sun is in 14th degree), son of Sumu Asura and

Sumu-idina and the descendant of Deka was born. At that time the Moon

was in the second Hora of Scorpio (Vrischika), Jupiter was in Pisces

(Meena), Venus in Taurus (Vrishabha), Saturn in Cancer (Karkataka),

Mars in Gemini and Mercury was in Asta (i.e. in 12th house; set house

that is not visible) from Sun." (About the translation of the

remaining part I am doubtful and so I stop here).

This chart is true for 26th April -409 (BC ), put any night time

(e.g. 8 PM) as birth time and any place in Iran (e.g. Abnuh) as place

of birth. You will see that this chart is very correct as per Sidereal

Zodiac. The said book contains several such charts and natal

predictions. I am giving this just as an example to show that what CJ

Johans ji told in this group could be very true and evidence based.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

April 17, 2010

Dear Amit JI,

Some more point for this thread....

There is Tropical and corresponding epherium when It looked (by moving

within Time)..Present Tropical become Future Sideral and Past Tropical

become Present Sidereal.....

Rules are derived by considering movement of Planets.....Rules which

gets created by Today will have Ayanmsa 0.0.0 for today same Rules if

people want to use after 716 year Technique may or may not work due

they have to use New Ayanmsa nearlt 10 degree.....specially to use my

today developed technique.....

-----------------

Regards,

Devisingh

Bhaskar wrote:

The Tropical of today, was the Tropical of the Ancients of India in the

Golden Yuga.

The Sayana of today was the Nirayana of the Ancient indians.

The predictions in the ancient were meant for Tropical and now applied

to Nirayana by making the Tropical of today into Sidereal through the

precsion...or the anayamsha.

Bhaskar.

,

"Bhaskar"

<bhaskar_jyotish wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadh ji,

>

> Sidereal is Nirayan is Stellar is Eastern. We knew about the 12

Spokes

> of the wheel, But did not use Raashis in the ancient times for

> Prediction purposes, except Nakshatras .

>

> Tropical is Sayana is Western because we in East do not follow it

these

> days.

>

> The words mentioned as Directions are denoted as Eastern or Western

only

> to bifercate the regions which use in Majority Tropical or

Sidereal.

>

> Sayana was the Ancient astrology of India. But no more.

>

> Love and regards,

>

> Bhaskar.

>

> ,

"sreesog" sreesog@

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Amit,

> > For Sidereal astrology (I mean Nirayana astrology and NOT

stellar

> > astrology) read some good book on Indian astrology. (There

are many

in

> > the market)

> > For Tropical astrology (I mean Tropical astrology and NOT

Sayana

> > astrology) please read some good book on Western astrology.

(There

are

> > many in the market).

> > Please note that -

> > * Sidereal astrology itself is neither eastern or western.

(Many

> > ancient Hellenistic astrologer followed Sidereal - i.e. fixed

zodiac

-

> > system); similarly

> > * Tropical astrology itself is neither eastern or western.

(Many

> > ancient Indian texts such as Vedsa refer to the extensive use

of

> > tropical astrology).

> > It is just that later Sidereal astrology was seriously taken

up by

> > Indians and Tropical astrology by Westerners (Europeans and

modern

day

> > Americans).

> > Hope this helps.

> > Love and regards,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > ,

"amit.baid"

> > amit.baid@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Learned Fraternity,

> > >

> > > Kindly suggest a good book to clarify concepts on

Sidereal and

> > Tropical Zodiac.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > Amit

> > >

> >

>

April 17, 2010

Dear Devisingh ji,

Your kindself mentioned -

// .....specially to use my today developed technique... ..//

Can you please shower some " Devkripa " on us and explain us what is your

newly developed technique so that we could also become wiser.....

awaiting your considerations to consider my request considerately.

regards,

Bhaskar.

, devisigh

<devisingh.rajput wrote:

>

> Dear Amit JI,

>

> Some more point for this thread....

>

> There is Tropical and corresponding epherium when It looked (by moving

> within Time)..Present Tropical become Future Sideral and Past Tropical

> become Present Sidereal.....

>

> Rules are derived by considering movement of Planets.....Rules which

> gets created by Today will have Ayanmsa 0.0.0 for today same Rules if

> people want to use after 716 year Technique may or may not work due

they

> have to use New Ayanmsa nearlt 10 degree.....specially to use my today

> developed technique.....

>

> -----------------

> Regards,

> Devisingh

>

> Bhaskar wrote:

> >

> > The Tropical of today, was the Tropical of the Ancients of India in

the

> > Golden Yuga.

> >

> > The Sayana of today was the Nirayana of the Ancient indians.

> >

> > The predictions in the ancient were meant for Tropical and now

applied

> > to Nirayana by making the Tropical of today into Sidereal through

the

> > precsion...or the anayamsha.

> >

> > Bhaskar.

> >

> > <%40>, " Bhaskar "

> > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sreenadh ji,

> > >

> > > Sidereal is Nirayan is Stellar is Eastern. We knew about the 12

Spokes

> > > of the wheel, But did not use Raashis in the ancient times for

> > > Prediction purposes, except Nakshatras .

> > >

> > > Tropical is Sayana is Western because we in East do not follow it

> > these

> > > days.

> > >

> > > The words mentioned as Directions are denoted as Eastern or

Western

> > only

> > > to bifercate the regions which use in Majority Tropical or

Sidereal.

> > >

> > > Sayana was the Ancient astrology of India. But no more.

> > >

> > > Love and regards,

> > >

> > > Bhaskar.

> > >

> > <%40>, " sreesog "

sreesog@

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Amit,

> > > > For Sidereal astrology (I mean Nirayana astrology and NOT

stellar

> > > > astrology) read some good book on Indian astrology. (There are

many

> > in

> > > > the market)

> > > > For Tropical astrology (I mean Tropical astrology and NOT Sayana

> > > > astrology) please read some good book on Western astrology.

(There

> > are

> > > > many in the market).

> > > > Please note that -

> > > > * Sidereal astrology itself is neither eastern or western. (Many

> > > > ancient Hellenistic astrologer followed Sidereal - i.e. fixed

zodiac

> > -

> > > > system); similarly

> > > > * Tropical astrology itself is neither eastern or western. (Many

> > > > ancient Indian texts such as Vedsa refer to the extensive use of

> > > > tropical astrology).

> > > > It is just that later Sidereal astrology was seriously taken up

by

> > > > Indians and Tropical astrology by Westerners (Europeans and

modern

> > day

> > > > Americans).

> > > > Hope this helps.

> > > > Love and regards,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > <%40>, " amit.baid "

> > > > amit.baid@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Learned Fraternity,

> > > > >

> > > > > Kindly suggest a good book to clarify concepts on Sidereal and

> > > > Tropical Zodiac.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards

> > > > >

> > > > > Amit

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

April 17, 2010

Dear Bhaskar JI,

Thanks for pointing out.....

I have shared thought for thread and that was example.....

What all i am doing is like experiment (i have something in my

mind)...If fails then no issue i have satisfaction that i have

varified/attempted my way...if god allow something to be created by me

then fine world has to wait for time to come....

I will definitely share and demonstrate with number of examples with

consistency and accuracy........(and off course with reasons)

Please Pardon me if something hearts to you.....

------------------

Regards,

Devisingh

Bhaskar wrote:

Dear Devisingh ji,

Your kindself mentioned -

// .....specially to use my today developed technique... ..//

Can you please shower some "Devkripa" on us and explain us what is your

newly developed technique so that we could also become wiser.....

awaiting your considerations to consider my request considerately.

regards,

Bhaskar.

,

devisigh

<devisingh.rajput wrote:

>

> Dear Amit JI,

>

> Some more point for this thread....

>

> There is Tropical and corresponding epherium when It looked (by

moving

> within Time)..Present Tropical become Future Sideral and Past

Tropical

> become Present Sidereal.....

>

> Rules are derived by considering movement of Planets.....Rules

which

> gets created by Today will have Ayanmsa 0.0.0 for today same Rules

if

> people want to use after 716 year Technique may or may not work due

they

> have to use New Ayanmsa nearlt 10 degree.....specially to use

my today

> developed technique.....

>

> -----------------

> Regards,

> Devisingh

>

> Bhaskar wrote:

> >

> > The Tropical of today, was the Tropical of the Ancients of

India in

the

> > Golden Yuga.

> >

> > The Sayana of today was the Nirayana of the Ancient indians.

> >

> > The predictions in the ancient were meant for Tropical and now

applied

> > to Nirayana by making the Tropical of today into Sidereal

through

the

> > precsion...or the anayamsha.

> >

> > Bhaskar.

> >

> > <%40>,

"Bhaskar"

> > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sreenadh ji,

> > >

> > > Sidereal is Nirayan is Stellar is Eastern. We knew about

the 12

Spokes

> > > of the wheel, But did not use Raashis in the ancient

times for

> > > Prediction purposes, except Nakshatras .

> > >

> > > Tropical is Sayana is Western because we in East do not

follow it

> > these

> > > days.

> > >

> > > The words mentioned as Directions are denoted as Eastern

or

Western

> > only

> > > to bifercate the regions which use in Majority Tropical

or

Sidereal.

> > >

> > > Sayana was the Ancient astrology of India. But no more.

> > >

> > > Love and regards,

> > >

> > > Bhaskar.

> > >

> > <%40>,

"sreesog"

sreesog@

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Amit,

> > > > For Sidereal astrology (I mean Nirayana astrology

and NOT

stellar

> > > > astrology) read some good book on Indian astrology.

(There are

many

> > in

> > > > the market)

> > > > For Tropical astrology (I mean Tropical astrology

and NOT Sayana

> > > > astrology) please read some good book on Western

astrology.

(There

> > are

> > > > many in the market).

> > > > Please note that -

> > > > * Sidereal astrology itself is neither eastern or

western. (Many

> > > > ancient Hellenistic astrologer followed Sidereal -

i.e. fixed

zodiac

> > -

> > > > system); similarly

> > > > * Tropical astrology itself is neither eastern or

western. (Many

> > > > ancient Indian texts such as Vedsa refer to the

extensive use of

> > > > tropical astrology).

> > > > It is just that later Sidereal astrology was

seriously taken up

by

> > > > Indians and Tropical astrology by Westerners

(Europeans and

modern

> > day

> > > > Americans).

> > > > Hope this helps.

> > > > Love and regards,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > <%40>,

"amit.baid"

> > > > amit.baid@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Learned Fraternity,

> > > > >

> > > > > Kindly suggest a good book to clarify concepts

on Sidereal and

> > > > Tropical Zodiac.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards

> > > > >

> > > > > Amit

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

April 17, 2010

Dear Devisingh ji,

//if god allow something to be created by me then fine world has to wait

for time to come....//

Sir we have a lot of patience, we have been waiting and will continue to

keep waiting.

regards,

Bhaskar.

, devisigh

<devisingh.rajput wrote:

>

> Dear Bhaskar JI,

>

> Thanks for pointing out.....

>

> I have shared thought for thread and that was example.....

>

> What all i am doing is like experiment (i have something in my

> mind)...If fails then no issue i have satisfaction that i have

> varified/attempted my way...if god allow something to be created by me

> then fine world has to wait for time to come....

>

> I will definitely share and demonstrate with number of examples with

> consistency and accuracy........(and off course with reasons)

>

> Please Pardon me if something hearts to you.....

> ------------------

> Regards,

> Devisingh

>

> Bhaskar wrote:

> >

> > Dear Devisingh ji,

> >

> > Your kindself mentioned -

> >

> > // .....specially to use my today developed technique... ..//

> >

> > Can you please shower some " Devkripa " on us and explain us what is

your

> > newly developed technique so that we could also become wiser.....

> >

> > awaiting your considerations to consider my request considerately.

> >

> > regards,

> >

> > Bhaskar.

> >

> > <%40>, devisigh

> > devisingh.rajput@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Amit JI,

> > >

> > > Some more point for this thread....

> > >

> > > There is Tropical and corresponding epherium when It looked (by

moving

> > > within Time)..Present Tropical become Future Sideral and Past

Tropical

> > > become Present Sidereal.....

> > >

> > > Rules are derived by considering movement of Planets.....Rules

which

> > > gets created by Today will have Ayanmsa 0.0.0 for today same Rules

if

> > > people want to use after 716 year Technique may or may not work

due

> > they

> > > have to use New Ayanmsa nearlt 10 degree.....specially to use my

today

> > > developed technique.....

> > >

> > > -----------------

> > > Regards,

> > > Devisingh

> > >

> > > Bhaskar wrote:

> > > >

> > > > The Tropical of today, was the Tropical of the Ancients of India

in

> > the

> > > > Golden Yuga.

> > > >

> > > > The Sayana of today was the Nirayana of the Ancient indians.

> > > >

> > > > The predictions in the ancient were meant for Tropical and now

> > applied

> > > > to Nirayana by making the Tropical of today into Sidereal

through

> > the

> > > > precsion...or the anayamsha.

> > > >

> > > > Bhaskar.

> > > >

> > <%40>

> > > > <%40>, " Bhaskar "

> > > > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > Sidereal is Nirayan is Stellar is Eastern. We knew about the

12

> > Spokes

> > > > > of the wheel, But did not use Raashis in the ancient times for

> > > > > Prediction purposes, except Nakshatras .

> > > > >

> > > > > Tropical is Sayana is Western because we in East do not follow

it

> > > > these

> > > > > days.

> > > > >

> > > > > The words mentioned as Directions are denoted as Eastern or

> > Western

> > > > only

> > > > > to bifercate the regions which use in Majority Tropical or

> > Sidereal.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sayana was the Ancient astrology of India. But no more.

> > > > >

> > > > > Love and regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhaskar.

> > > > >

> > <%40>

> > > > <%40>, " sreesog "

> > sreesog@

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Amit,

> > > > > > For Sidereal astrology (I mean Nirayana astrology and NOT

> > stellar

> > > > > > astrology) read some good book on Indian astrology. (There

are

> > many

> > > > in

> > > > > > the market)

> > > > > > For Tropical astrology (I mean Tropical astrology and NOT

Sayana

> > > > > > astrology) please read some good book on Western astrology.

> > (There

> > > > are

> > > > > > many in the market).

> > > > > > Please note that -

> > > > > > * Sidereal astrology itself is neither eastern or western.

(Many

> > > > > > ancient Hellenistic astrologer followed Sidereal - i.e.

fixed

> > zodiac

> > > > -

> > > > > > system); similarly

> > > > > > * Tropical astrology itself is neither eastern or western.

(Many

> > > > > > ancient Indian texts such as Vedsa refer to the extensive

use of

> > > > > > tropical astrology).

> > > > > > It is just that later Sidereal astrology was seriously taken

up

> > by

> > > > > > Indians and Tropical astrology by Westerners (Europeans and

> > modern

> > > > day

> > > > > > Americans).

> > > > > > Hope this helps.

> > > > > > Love and regards,

> > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > >

> > <%40>

> > > > <%40>, " amit.baid "

> > > > > > amit.baid@ wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Learned Fraternity,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kindly suggest a good book to clarify concepts on Sidereal

and

> > > > > > Tropical Zodiac.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Regards

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Amit

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

April 19, 2010

Dear Devi Singh ji,//> I have converted that google book link to pdf...seems interesting to > study....now you shared else i was going to do that today :)// Don't worry! You are welcome to do the same for any other Google book (astrology related) that you find interesting. //seems interesting to study.// Yes, that book is a real good source book for further research. //> I have tried to cast charts and match positions of planets as depicted > in book for some examples....but position of Moon and Ma,Me ..are > different...I mean all planet are not matching with

same degree as > provided in book......// Please provide the examples you tried to do along with quote reference from that book. I will try to match it and provide feedback. //It seems that eperium used may be diffrent as > books says that babylonian are following lunar calender...// I don't know what you mean by eperium. Yes, possibly the Ayanamsa used by those Parthian scholars (let us not confuse others with the use of words 'Babylonian') could be different.//.can you please comment how to get that exact planet...// As I told earlier, please quote the example you are referring to. I will try to provide my comment/feedback on the same.Love and regards,Sreenadh Hope to see some in near future. , devisigh <devisingh.rajput wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh JI,> > I have converted that google book link to pdf...seems interesting to > study....now you shared else i was going to do that today > > //chart is true for 26th April -409 (BC ), put any night time (e.g. 8 > PM) //> I have tried to cast charts and match positions of planets as depicted > in book for some examples....but position of Moon and Ma,Me ..are > different...I mean all planet are not matching with same degree as > provided in book......It seems that eperium used may be diffrent as > books says that babylonian are following lunar calender.....can you > please comment how to get that exact planet...can we adjust speed of > planet as per our desire in JHora??> > ------------------> Regards,> Devisingh

April 19, 2010

Dear Devi Singh ji, But let us not forget that - When we have example charts such us the one provided by Parthian chart examples, it is easy to identify the approximate Ayanamsa that was in use, as well as whether the system under use was Nirayana or Tropical. Hope you will agree with that - direction is clear; any willing individual can put effort; and get the results.Love and regards,Sreenadh , devisigh <devisingh.rajput wrote:>> Dear Amit JI,> > Some more point for this thread....> > There is Tropical and corresponding epherium when It looked (by moving > within Time)..Present Tropical become Future Sideral and Past Tropical > become Present Sidereal.....> > Rules are derived by considering movement of Planets.....Rules which > gets created by Today will have Ayanmsa 0.0.0 for today same Rules if > people want to use after 716 year Technique may or may not work due they > have to use New Ayanmsa nearlt 10 degree.....specially to use my today > developed technique.....> > -----------------> Regards,> Devisingh

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