Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Thanks Shankarji!On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:22 AM, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote: Dear Pranadasa ji, " Shankarji and others - I have no animosity towards schools - your lengthy post (even though it is ostensibly written to *clarify* my one -uncontroversial- statement) belies the fact that I have somehow touched a nerve - this discussion will go nowhere if we all get angry explicitly or implicitly, so I wanted to make it clear. " No, I have not written to clarify but to tell you that the definition you have used, is inaccurate to say the least. I have precisely pointed out what that inaccuracy is. And the point is not what you have for or against Sankara or Madhva - it is irrelevant. The point is that your understanding is mistaken - whether it is an error or bias, is for you to retrospect and not my concern. What I have found to be erroneous, I pointed out and my job ends there. My last post on this thread. Shankar s s <freemoronsTo: Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:04:31 PM Re: Re: Moksha... This is wonderful that so many people are responding to these questions.However, I need to clarify one thing: The different schools of thoughts ( in recent history, starting with Shankaracharya, then Ramanujacharya and later on Madhwacharya (most recent among the acharya-trayas) have their own particular beauty. In fact, nearly 21 people have tried rewriting or enhancing bhashyas to clarify what the vedas mean - and this is a unique trait which can be found ONLY in hinduism. Thank God for that ! :-) Shankarji and others - I have no animosity towards schools - your lengthy post (even though it is ostensibly written to *clarify* my one -uncontroversial- statement) belies the fact that I have somehow touched a nerve - this discussion will go nowhere if we all get angry explicitly or implicitly, so I wanted to make it clear. You may not be aware that I have spent years analyzing Advaita, VishishTadvaita, Dvaita, Islam, Christianity, Zororastrianism and spent a little less time on Judaism, Jainism and Buddhism - I love and respect all these schools, for they reveal the extent to which the founder's understanding has developed... so please rest assured that I dont have any agenda of hate against Shankaracharya. Your points require a detailed post, which is not directly connected to this discussion (as you have yourself mentioned),. so it will perhaps be answered in another email. As I am shifting houses now and also with 10,000 other commitments, this may take sometime (Bohraji's debate should finish first before I start on another :-) I have a small brain...). hari smaraNs,prANadAsa.On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:05 AM, chiranjiv mehta <vchiranjiv (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: Dear All, There was a newspaper report , maybe a year ago, that a great original thinker in US has come to the conclusion that God is nothing but a figment on man's mind. The guy, in my insignificant opinion is at the first stage of getting religious. Hope he lives long enough to tell the world what he thinks after a few years. I think we worship God in the likeness of human form becuase it would be difficult for us to imagine otherwise. Why, we cant even think of God's form in other races and physical features ( imagine Ram as Japanese, Jesus as Chinese etc ). In different stages of our emotional and consciousness growth we think and love god in different ways. So we have Vatsalya Prem ( love him like a baby ), Sakha Prem ( like a friend ) etc. This is a graduating process for the human being immersed in Sansara. Any way too mush discussion will leave one " all dressed up and nowhere to go " . It would be better to go there inappropriately dressed .... God , does not agree with Shakespear " Clothes maketh a man " . So dont worry - just do it. Some of the above may be slogans of consumer brands and were inadvertantly used.Chiranjiv Mehta--- On Tue, 8/9/09, s s <freemorons (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: s s <freemorons (AT) gmail (DOT) com>[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Moksha... ancient_indian_ astrologyTuesday, 8 September, 2009, 7:33 AM My dear Bohraji,You have asked such an excellent question - a very fine question that idealsadhakas who *think *should ask. Thank you for that..Question: Are deities not merely symbols? Answer: There are 2 ways to investigate the correct answers to a question:Start from scratch and do each and every bit of investigation ourself...or2) Build upon what is already known and proven, so that we advance knowledge of entire mankind. Since it is difficult to do meditation to analyze all the " from step 1 " questions ( The bhagawatam indicates that it may take upto60,000 years of concentrated effort to arrive at the first step of the Vedas) we can chose the second option - much like the modern world ofscience. How do we know what the other people have said in shastras is true?Because independent rishi's have arrived at the same conclusion separately, after meditating and have realized (got sakshatkar) and have recorded thisas being true in the shastras. For the record here, I have to make clearthat I consider the following as shastras: The vedas, the itihasas, somepuranas and the pancharatra) .At the heart of your question is the element of advaita - the belief that there is only one soul and that there are no other souls, and all of what weare seeing and experiencing is mithya (maya), which will become " ONE " at thetime of liberation. This is the radical concept that Adi Shankaracharya brought into Hinduism from Buddhism (it was not his original concept too, heattributes it clearly to his guru GauDapAda). The advaita school maintainsthat we are all ONE and that there is no difference at all. Before I proceed to answer your question in detail with pramANas from the scriptures, Iwould like to know your thoughts on this front - do you to thisthought of ONE-ness?hari smaraNs,prANadAsaOn Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:54 AM, msbohra62 <msbohra62 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: >>> Dear Paranadasa ji,>> You have the respect of your Guruji's word as you have stated as a " Gift " ,>> //Guruji: " In ancient times, the sages had to use symbols and tell stories > to make common people understand deep scientific concepts. It is upto us to> unravel them. Do not reject things before analyzing, for then you are doing> a great disservice to all their efforts " .// >> Now my basic question in other words to you again " The all our Deities are> not only symbols ? " >> I am not denial about the ultimate power here and I am also doing worship> some deities in my regular day life.But I would like to say it is pure> science,a great..great Psychology behind all deities, about Human> Psychology.A self hypnosis process which opens all the ways to grow> accordingly to worship of deities and the keen force(Desire) of the person > who worship his deities to achieve his desire target.>> When you recite 'Durgaspatsati " you feel every thing is happens within you> only,all the " Devi-roop " and Ashur are within us.To fight the > Ashur(Tamsik- tatva) we have to concentrate on good(Satvik- tatva)> thoughts.Who are in practice to recite " Durgasatsati " they can feel it.All> the " Kavach " are the best example of self hypnosis process. >> Knowing the " Shastra " ,understanding the " Shastra " and getting the real> essence of 'Shastra' all are very different things.After the journey of> whole universe(Shastra) we come to understand the real " point " where we have> to take journey for realization of real truth,why we should not start the> journey form this point at beginning.>> I means to say Ishawar or ultimate power is within us only,have to > recognise it, learn to activate it and to achieve it.How to reduce> " Tamsik " , " Rajsik " tatva and develop more and more " Satvik " tatva within> ourself.Every creation of this universe is only mixer of these three tatva. >> I do not have any 'Shastra " references about it so please don't asked me to> put it here,its all my little personal experiences. Sharing it here to know> that others also have the same experiences in their personal life or not. >> If you find this message according to you a " Avidhya " ,booki> knowledge,limited understanding etc than please after reading forget it for> all the time.Because its all my personal observations and on the risk of > being taken as foolish,i am sharing here for other members.>> M.S.Bohra>> --- te:> >> > Dear Bohra I,> > If i starcount tunt the faults in me, I may take many many lifetimes and > to cou not be able to couem them fully...>> >> > I am very open to discussion, but those entering the discussion have the> > great responsibility of putting their matters across clearly and briefly, > so> > that people listening to them can understand it. This is the second rule> to> > be followed in any tatva-vada. But, the first is to quot quote the> shastras> > as pramaaNa to txactly wtly whais to quto quoting (in sat) and and from > > wherelltt peoplpeopl they arhis not ome ermant iant idut isut is accoro> that p>> the VVdas..Whskkit? kkrit Why nnot hindi or ass? Becasecauseetraiion s> ions> o othherother anguages cannbe danggemese? Benorrect asllatiy to oe entoee>> meanin>> f the of tte st -eemen --for exxampe, thee word " varNa " has led to many> > compns inions in Hnduissm by misunderstanding The llst rulle is that > ation> should employ point by poponseesponses o queestions asked so that thedebate> > is fru> uitful to the readers and the discussants. There are three simple rules> > of discussion. > >> > We have been given intelligence so that we employ it in the service of> > Paramatma - and we do this by investiand discud diussing.... .and that can> be> > de successfslly ononlying and dwing rules ( like we addrryone > >ryone> tfuspecectfuy andnd also sign emai). When I I d nototee these being g> followed,> > I waited for further emails to clarify them, and to answer the questions> I> > asked (still waiting for them) - but they did not come, leading me to> > believe that this is less of a discussion and more of parading of one's> > limited understanding. I have never described or felt that I am a > > teacher...I dont know what made you come to that conclu> > I.> >> > I amtillll open to debate, I have much toearn i in lif.> > but I do not> > intend to waste precioun lime in listeng t to more avidya in disguise - > and> > t only waway we can ish itguish it wn strarangers speak, is the use of> > shastra- prngug..if mymy demanding this from you rect, trrn I sho I> shouou> > withd> hdraw from the debate. > >> > Alsorrerr, th this cu current physical body is immat.so my age> >my> > vis-a-vis> vis yours is just a matter of timehat iat is whl. If you. If yeelf> you> you are older than me, and I should keeI. Iel. Ithen so be it.> >> >> > hari smaraNs,> > prA>> >sa.> >> On On >> > On p 6, Sep 6, 200 PM, msbohraohrab2@ sbohr2 (AT) sbo (DOT) .>62@..e: wrote:> >> >> >> > >> > > Par 1:1a PM, <ms>> <msb> > > > the> > > topic with free of mind but ission,you ilur ah mindseas with mindset.> > >> > > Problems are attitwith o fewttitude,by few conversati >> > > Psome one we > > > assuming what he is an few c he haatioe outh some quire the seat of> > > " Teacher " and tre he have.as a stud we arey,where we are all student > here in> > > this world.By getting ,where ecific knowledge of the particular subject> we> > > think that we are trity oal authority on this subject.At this level we> leave> > > to learn more and appear always with some mindset.Further development> stop> > > here because we stop to learn or understand other new view on the > subject.> > >> > > Many times it happens with me also when my children asks me some> questions> > > and i have no answer or the answer make me to do some thing els which i > > > never like to do or the answer leads me to accept his/her v> c is more> > > correct than me.These all a direct hit to my ego,my orether " figure> post> > > cold not digest it than i use some anger or taken herd to sther word to > stop> > > him/her to asking such questions again.It happens with all of us so> many> > > times.> > >> > > But in fact questions remain in His/her mind but they understand that> they> > > have knocked the wrong door.> > >> > > What you have analyzed and how you came to on conclusion it was all > your> > > presumptions. Please read again mu message,yes i asked so many question> but> > > if you give answer to yourself you will realize they all are just leads> > > there ,which i want to convey.There is no offensive word and act in my > > > message where you have used so many word which are absolutely a> offensive> > > act only. " Svetaketu " was the peak of your mindset about me.> > >> > > I am a very commonman as like evdu.I haved Hindu.I have no achievement > in> > > spiritual side to claind Hhave not> > >> .> > >> > > It is your greatness that you taken my questions to reply me reatney to> > > make me understand your's views on the subject.For that I am very> thankful> > > to you.> > >> > > I have no so command on language and expressen power as like you so > take my> > > post expreommon man who can convey the message only.> > >> > > M.S.Bohra> > >> > > ancient_indian_ astrology@ grou> > > > > -cient_indian_ astrology% 40. comBo> ra> > >ci<freemorons@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Bohraji,> > > >at was a gregre quot, similmilar tohe on from om Chandogya uishadEvot, > similmilar tohe on> > om om Chand>> > > yA> > >> > > AAO kaa> vtvbmmvaaO kaa> >nn t> > >> > > t> > aOtiuu> >> > >aEEEIIaAaaA a> mm> > >> aIvtvbmmva> O ka>> > h> t> > > > t> > d> auuu> > > > >ayzzd tt > , dnn,ri , rihh> > l cc ae> > >> >tayaft> > > aftayaftayzzd tt > ,>> dnn,ri , rif> > l c> aeri> rif bif l c> l c >> , dn>> a> >> ff bif l c>> n cc,> > > se> > >ife w> e wodsdl wherl wherl ancne e son t wlahatfbeii tondis> ..ifu> > .idret > > > g> >fo> > > ata> > >> > >> > >trtta> > >> y> > > r atrtlings,ngs, Ii I tng t gstruly ul. do..ia isattet th tat gat at s > > > od in sho>> dng g howingng tes and peopl of pepeoe. We have toto relyst> > > > unundetstandinghehe wos ththathe email contains - communicating using>> > > > different words shows the different mindsets, and I merely said what > was> > > my> > > > analysis of your emails. It may entirely be possible that I am just> an> > > > idiotic upstart who does not understand the greatness of your > spiritual > > > > growth...only paramAtma knows.> > > >> > > Whe clien n fht on whlohlnanntertedssr rr heth> > > teotheth> > > teotton yty ryy> > > n yee ryys recrls > > > ebeaeltae> > > b eeltaal bhehe cel eeche r> > > >pechee c> > > >pechI kyig..aI kg> > > g.hnaIeek yheaets theeetthat hat ilh fhaa ill fhat> > > mrorfiofl> > > mrorrrofrm> frr t> > > > :h:)forg>> > > th:)givgi> > > rgforgivyorgforgivs> > > aN m ,s> > > sNs>> > > , > > >> > > n> > > >> > >> > > n> > >> > > n> > >> > > n> > >> > > n> > > > > > ,2011,0,20,2011 20,9 at 1,> > > 11 20 A a ms, m11ohr AMbomsbohra62 <msbohra62@> >> >> > > > e >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Dea> > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear P> > > ar Para ji,> > > >r st t m> > > > > > after > s m me after > st ime timet lose thmet> > > yomethae one you buon on easona aysonaly.alay. > ashe ly.I> > > ly.I> > > > >pit iiee te to trererto oo havr ablrto rbleothr ablter rbte> > > theto > > > >e e> > > ote> > > to> > > ote> > > > ti> > > h tite > tith prsr> > > ine fur> > > furwi> > > ine fur > > > fu> > > wit> > > tneait q> > >> > > it> > > t> > > oneait qshis t w onuof h w on of hsivia whicvsivsvenoearf r rf> Budduddor KP > > > ich wAstrr recen,> > > >l>> > > l > /> > >> > > /> > > > " D/ nol nologer el ng ng he said jsstdout ofout oectefor him. Doim. > Do> > > not> > > > > believe> > > > > thing shmply bmply because you have heard it. Do not believe in> > > anything> > > > > simply> > > > > because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in > anything> > > simply> > > > > because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe> in> > > > > anything> > > > > merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe > in> > > > > traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.> But> > > > > after> > > > > observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with > > > reason> > > > > and is> > > > > conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it> and> > > live> > > > > up to> > > > > it. " > > > > > -Lord Buddha//> > > > >> > > > > Pranam to you,> > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra> > > > >> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > ji,> > > > Bohraji,> > > > w plan " Doo we kow plants do mind " mind " - Pleat you ine wh > > > > > 1em> > > youha-Do> > >> > > > > w> > >> > > yoeng- mang re calre calling d " minm cmean.. ean ) .alave no pwe Atm.> Bind > > > > l> > > einl> > > Mind dorn, Misn, Mind ( wemal teof nasnwy isnty in par bnas)n nfain n> wa> > > aci> > > ysl nerc> > > > > s > > > maiand vou bapaaciadvacd bp> > > sys ato cticed aaciadv9to ctifslli to ct9%> > > > >> > > > > 99to plhse.t.. adv99%> > > erefoe..> of herefe..fso pd> > > >eereroe...ss > > > > > >> > > e..areefd> > > >y> > > carefo..ss> > > >> >> > > > cado nully> > > >l> >m-es dond thasis > > > not> > > is> > > nett have aatot> > > hatis thatha,,ett have> > > ett have s> > > no tthatha,, cthen ttith it.. Rfer tify it.. r> sigli " " > > > hs> > > hated > sigst " " > > > staaated sannd,> > > havystatud ea> > > aannth bo> udntud eavyd yot bo>it b ntu g dtid as -it b -ig -g - Id st > aso> > > i -ig -ni a - n dtd> > > ot g -is w> > > ng,ot dtd sot cg- I cla wot m> > > > >> > > eig, I claI Ia m> > > > >> > > eare > 2) I Ia me..e aware of Mundaka upan> > > > > > s w of y oaks " dvaa supa Mand> > > ka up> > > > > ayuj w ofhaunaa.s " dvaa sasa dfam> > >> > > vsa syujaa ak v bidur> > > > > > > > > bsuaupam> > > o v bvsur> > > >> > > >> > > > w bi bidur> > >> > > >> > > > bsuaaup..ouu bidur > > >> > > >> > > >sat> > > is cea lh> > > > la kackaouudye. l> > > > > .ouu> >> > > >pk > ..> > > to ealore t>run w > > > exlore theen yn yo> > > > wihpkrllhn to Turore thlei w> > > exlore the purfna wi wikya puran> > > > > >> > > o t(aefie> > > > > >undekya rurfna wi,dulse puran > > > > applse - if you e w youw> > tow e w you> > > > > to> > > > > yu to becbcouraguraged (if ou a> > > gt aged (if ou arrtthe latte, in in the latter case, youdeio > > > > >nto ma> > > > deeper ifrom Godhead.away from Godhead.> > >> > > > > >> > > > > > our questions not not made me uneasy, they have disappointed me. > > > Please> > > > > > remember that I was defending your asking questionYour the> beginning.> > > But> > > > > > yor style of wwricomes acrosscross as bookish and art, ant,> whichot> > > > > > con> > > > > > conducive to discussion.. . you sound like Svetaketu.> > > > > >> > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > prANadsa> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > epS5, 2005, 2009006 AM: M, msbM, ms2 <msboh<msbohra62@ > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > Very s> > > > > y sorry tha my haa my have takAsa> > > > > > > > > > > > ngly and , Ser 5, 200u12qu12:16 A> wron> > > > > e anglye alsha " ShSha " Sharudh-harudh Vea> > Very e u ahve me.> > > > > >neo w > > > > > kno> > > > > tkn> > > > > knowat noant ot P not ha h not haquethe n wh ?Than who control> theot> > > " Shd> > > > > act> > > > > gand actid totivity ? > > > > > > ca>> > > > > ?> > > > > > ca>> > > > > >> > > > > Dm we Dm wwith ngrmtats Pand it is nd it is not Shastra-Vctudh > > > > > > > >> > > > > ea>> > > > > >reg earcing inrchingyow have ou hhave ou havanths aGe only are> only> > > > > > > roadm am in se am in search wit> > > > > > > > >> > > > > >ki> > > > > > > Asking sens aae sens are nothern youwhern you hg non-humble> with> > > any> > > > > one.If > > > > > > n itapohan itpfolo i apfoogiz> >me.s> >> > > > > >me.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I a questiohave limited understandthat or that reasons i have a > > > > > > > these> > > > > > these questions here, before wise persons as like you.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Please don't use Bhaskar ji,Shastra-Virudh, losing faith in > > > > > Sanatan-Dharma> > > > > > > op me ts apising tae ques the questions whmade yoe uneasyou> > > uneasy.I am> > > > > not> > > > > > > have the capacity to influence the youth of massto stop > > > > > me>> > > > > to arisng theching the ultimathave ma e you ar,e us aside us and> > > youclaimi> > > > > g it is ing i in outer win outer widld,out side of us.It is the> only> > > > > > > difference.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Pranam, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > M.S.Bohra> > > > > > >> > > > > > > e:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One neorld,ouunhat isnd what is being said before and after> and> > > also> > > > > what> > > > > > > iing di> > > > > cussed beforussed before we come to the conclusion. > > > > > >and whf the mind is everything, then do plants not have jivas> (they> > > have> > > > > no> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > ent> > > > > > > ral nervous system ad so nno brain aousne consciousness) ?ve no> is> > > just > > > > > ulu> > rd iculuss, and is shasta-er uddhaa. Oher taa the ImmAmsak>> > > > > anddthe> > > > > > >> > > > > > > nA, the xistnss, the theriterii te alri bbaie a als, > > > > > > > > nAs .> > > > > > >> > > > > > nAsa.> > > > > >> > ireche eihe> > > > >> > > > > > ioayb ouiheccrdinss, the oob thino. Otheoooo thsho. Ottleritthan > > > > >> > > > > all> > > > > dbb> S> > > > > >nd he> > > > > > > i nAstidtel telling> di> > > > > > > irecheno manee oaoaanggu sbbcribebl> > > > > ee> > to thsh are deecribing> >> > > > > > he symptom, we t e talke tel oelling > > > > > hobse dselis no mang> > > > > , oelangno stThete is> > > > > is an attribute of the soung ong the symfaculties it> > > > > talkinu ab, just like thderlying. > > > > > > >> p> > > > > > > > I am sorry to saan attribute olanations you have given have> > > > > disappointed> > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > - I thought it was a sincere question by a jignyasi. Contrary> to> > > > > this, >> > > > > > > aears> > > > > > > rs to > > > > > > > to be the display ofs ow's own limited understanding -, it> > > > > > > > a of> > > > > > > > showcasing your talent, you have made some of us understand > the> > > level> > > > > to> > > > > > > > which yog -, it> > > > > rogressed spiritually. I no yourerstand Bhaskarji's> > > > > > > slight > > > > > > > ndenstanearl- healiedzed it muit much earlier than Id>> > > > > > > > I> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > In > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > In the same Brlier - he quote mercilessly in KrishnsKsays " > says> > > > > > > " ahaMkArO> > > > > > > > vimUaham sarvEt: " : a > > In the i,aignor on thrnth> > > thinthinkinthly> > > > > in Kris> > > > > > >says> > > > > t I> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > s> > > > > > > I> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > s> > > > > > > > g zeo-oI seo- I sudo-acaddo- acad thrntursuits. ... ta > med>treeed>> > > > > > > > ae ti> > > > > ndize and dighe arrogmatter snti ignoaaat I> > > > > or atlease one> I> > > > > > o > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > gezeo-oI seo- I sudtwirs. It rs. It p because of such deon> that> > > > >> > > > > > > > ahlotuss> > > > > > > lotuss it witters are losing faith in sanAtrma.> > > > > > > >ar hari> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > > prANa> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > i, ma. > > > > > > > <rbohrabohrm62 <rbo2ANaa <msb>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > 1:for :> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > :, msbohr1:for :, msbohrareply t take my question as :>200> //Where> > > you> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > /Where you realise allyou realise ge,aftkn getting the > knowledge> > > where> > > > > you> > > > > > > > > feel the changes about yourself.If you get the knowledget t> > > > > > > " Param-Tatva " > > > > > > > > > where you feel it ?Than where is Ishm-Tatxa is Param-Tatva> is> > > not a> > > > > > > Physical> > > > > > > > > a Phtsicalt an howar-Ta/ > > > > > > > t >> > > > > > > > aham-Ta/> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Wi-Ta/t> >> > > > > > > >ana " ithouc " Jaywilee wem ?//ensesee hem ?//ens seeour ?//eull> > > > > > > >tiolhnoillulslityo happons inlity happons in ouy happeis in dur > > >> > > wef> > > > > ouc> > > > > > > D> > > > > > > iay han any Deiay han any Deiay han any D in our hs also > > > > > > > na> > > > > > > > id hn Br " Taaavgid in BG " Tatavgyans also it hua gyad.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > k > hai artha hi > > > > > > > > > hai arsiva anay dev ke sihchavashkuch hai> > > > > > > > > h> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > . > > > > > > > v hi> > > > > > > > > ev> > > > > > > e svva> > > > > > >> > > > > > > anay ucyhei h v seudav> > > > > > > > h > > > > > > > .eihappeeratudav> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > .e happeerat eashudes,ke si a> > > > > > > alay ku.h hyy higlahim " > > > > > > > > re happet is also a stathe> > > > > > > am agyab.E> > > > > > > eey ree> > > > > > > isomhwn i> > > > > > > tha > > > > > > > it is> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > eate of mind> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >every,> > > > > > > > > > tra> > > > > > > > d> > > > > > > > > m> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >he:o> > > > > > > > > > m.heltlmata g goaoal is toealize t the> > > > > > > > > > themtness of Paramtatva to The mamucapacicityty withius,> f r> > > no > > > > > one c > > > > > > > a to T> > > > > > > e mamuderstacityty wire us, f m ci one c cble e exten The p> > > Paramtrtve> > > > > > > maximum> > > > > > > amucapasable e exten Th > > > > > > > p Paraoadmaps -ntenentantarnow q d such gretrarar n cimy> meantene e> > > > > > > exten T ones - - and -ngsfar and r idual capat>> > > > > > > >ant> J> > > > > > > > > >admaas -nteneionntarn fuio of he ratio> > > > > ravelaralpaalpaapao itdendnnn > > > > > > > ones> > > > > > > anyaand -ngs> > > > > > > >r and r idual c> > > > > > > ,nt>> > > > > > > > octti > > > > > > > > > > Jnyalal,naelaln, ion, fuiopart of the b ar iara> > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > apaoiy.ainion oesthe emotiouf> > > > > > > > > nctun > > > > > > > > >encs nnctiontsy that ou belal,naelale ple par> > > > > > >> > > > > > > pa> in the b are> > > > > > > > ead.Your> > torta lat esthe emotir is> > > > > > > foY>urdca> > > > > > > mmencs ts atanishadanishad' s reveal that thade ade of he > > > > > formGodhyad. Youre> > > > > > > mporta lat er, w> > > > > > > whacr is> > > > > > > athemide e mind is the minahanahankarahank aal that tha > > > > > > > e aderof ade cthechit> > > > > > > as>> > >hitta (temoraar g), ahfethfe), ath adentigf,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ,> > > > > > > > > >f,> > > > > > > > > > ory,> > > > > > > > > ryory, > > > > > > > > > r- of - o- of - of time),eetimetid) . Wetid). Whilt tmat ry> s> > > > > > > > > at r> > > > > > > > > liports> > > > > > > > > lrtkno, krtkno, know idge is imphatathatathe matathe min > the or> > > > > > > > > >foeaora.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ha.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ha.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >, o not un o yound yd yound your qbouwherout " where > istenee of> > > > > > > > > tence ersta> > > > > > > > > allderstanot undyour father. He isbaar, a so, a ,on, a ba> son,> > > a> > > > > > > brofrienda> > > > > > > > > > custom, a customer, aand, a fatherider - everything. The> role> > > le> > > > > > > > > > roles > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > roles, and people who seek him in different roles find him> > > playing> > > > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > > > roles - your mother finds a loving husband because she> sees a> > > > > husband> > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > him > > > > > > > > > > and simultaneously you see a loving father in him. This> is an> > > > > example> > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > divinity. Since you have read the BG you may be familiar> with> > > > > Krishna> > > > > > > > > > affirming that He reveals Himself as what the devotee > wants> > > him> > > > > to> > > > > > > be.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Yes, Gurus have to be respected even before we worship > > > divinity -> > > > > for> > > > > > > it> > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > due to the bhiksha they gave us, that our eyes are op a > bit.> > > a> > > > > bit.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs,> > > > > > > > > > prANadAsa> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >n evepen> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Sep 4, Seat 11:32 at 11:32 AM, msbohra62 <msbohra62@ e > owen> > > Sep> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On009 at 11> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > adAsa 009 adAsa ji, > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > question is in my mind, which i> > > > > > > > > > >2009 adAsedprANadAsa please reply me that what is the> > > ultimalbu> > > > > > > > > > > the " Gr> > > > > > > > > > > the " Granth " to read and understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > th> > > > > > > > > real> > th> > > > > > > > > rea knowlll the knowledge,after gettinou whhre eou heere > you> > > > > > > > > the kel the changes about yourselfthe se agldgthe se alldge> of> > > " > > > > > > > > > > am-Tatva " > > > > > > > > > > > where ?Than where ishan wherexist ?Parr exitva ia not> atva> > > is> > > > > not a> > > > > > > > > Physical > > > > > > > > > > > substanhwar eTltva yoram-Tl >> > > > > > > > > > h Diff> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Different peoplu wiram-ordyim ? > > > > > > > > > ga>> > > > > > > > > > gsaccorgingl g accordingly, as like> > > > > > > > > > >an howShakti " l seeehim ?hip " Devi " roop,for > Budhi-chaturay> > > they> > > > > > > worship> > > > > > > > > ehi>?hip eDevi,for Dhan they worship " Laximimata " .Than >> " Ganes > > > > > thefor> > > > > > > > > Dhance of> > > > > > > > > > > alp " Lese Lmata " > > > > > > > > > Than whe > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >n understand that all th worese i " Laxiaimata " .T> > > > > > > > > > >n undeess than any > > > > > > > > > > > Lord b allse they have gi >> > > > > > > > > > > I celigion and> > > > > > > > > >nowledge which leads us to > > > > > > > > > i >> > > > > > > > > > >th c ligion andt of our self being to " Param-Gyan " (Uer> det> > > a> > > > > > > religigf . > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > eing to> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology<ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com><a > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- tn aniannt_irdiogyastr ologgroups. com>,> > > > > > > > > > > s s>> > > > > > > > > > >e> > ns@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Members, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mocking or repudiating members who asked a sincere> > > question> > > > > is> > > > > > > bad -> > > > > > > > > > > Bohraji > > > > > > > > > > > > did not ask an obscene question...he asked a> > > philosophical> > > > > > > question> > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > > > important enough to be discussed in the uis> > > > > > > > > > > ds - so why are we> > > > > > > > > > > getting> > > > > > > > > > > > angry which> > > > > > > > > >ing " no no, man did not create God, you should believe > > > > > > > > > > > this " ?> > > > > > > > > > > > How many of us have sincerely utilized our intellects> in> > > the > > > > > > > servate > > > > > > > > > God, y> > > > > > > > > > Bhagawan and not just our hearts? Each one of us in a> > > different> > > > > > > spiritual > > > > > > > > > > > > level...but as long as we are all spiritually curious> > > with> > > > > our> > > > > > > > > intellect,> > > > > > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > > > > > are going in the right directiont as lonf us, by> virtue > > > of> > > > > > > sadhana> > > > > > > > > and> > > > > > > > > > > > blessings in previous life, have received the nectar > of> > > > > > > > > Bhakti....others> > > > > > > > > > > > have not yet got it...they will (i hope).> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are also some here who have gone so far as to>> >> > > havat> > > > > > > maybe> > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > > seers> > > > > > > > > > > > who gave us the scriptures also may havme hersolved> these> > > > > > > questions - > > > > > > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > > > > > is patently wrong. In the several thousand years of> > > > > philosophical > > > > > > > > > > > > development, it would be naive to assume that they > did> > > not go> > > > > > > deep> > > > > > > > > into> > > > > > > > > > > most> > > > > > > > > > > > philosophical and existential matters and solve it. > This> > > > > clearly> > > > > > > > > shows a> > > > > > > > > > > > lack of understanding and a lack of study of> " scriptures " > > > -> > > > > an> > > > > > > > > armchair > > > > > > > > > > > > philosopher approach. However, the latter part of> this> > > > > person's> > > > > > > > > statement > > > > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > > > partially correct - the spiritual experience cannot> be> > > put> > > > > into > > > > > > > > > words.> > > > > > > > > > > This> > > > > > > > > > > > does not mean that all questions cannot be answered. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, Bohraji, upon reading these scriptures> (kEna> > > U.> > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > particular)> > > > > > > > > > > > and meditating, you may come to the realization that> > > there is> > > > > no > > > > > > > > > origin> > > > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > the Para-tatva.. .however, some sages lovingly call > > > themselves> > > > > > > > > alizatio> > > > > > > > > > > father> > > > > > > > > ly when he> > > > > > > > > > > appear> >> > > > > > > > > > > in front of them (they could speak only because of His> > > kindness> > > > > and> > > > > > > > > > > > permission anyway), and it is the duty of the f name > to> > > name> > > > > the> > > > > > > > > child.> > > > > > > > > > > > Krishna appeared to be born to 2 sets of parents - as > did> > > > > Vamana> > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > Aditi> > > > > > > > > > > > and Kaashyapa etc...in such instances, these exalted > > > devotees> > > > > > > indeed> > > > > > > > > have> > > > > > > > > > > > the pride of calling the greatest of the great, the> one> > > > > without> > > > > > > > > origin,> > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > their child. Bhaskarji is right, the Bhagawatam is a> > > > > fantastic> > > > > > > gold> > > > > > > > > mine > > > > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > information, but d the gnto est oly after you the one> he> > > > > Bhagawad > > > > > > > > > gIta.> > > > > > > > > > > .> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs,> > > > > > > > > > > > prANadAsa> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:12 AM, gopi_b927 <gopi_b927@> >> > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > the Bhaga> > > > > > > > > > > > *Dear V).> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > yes you are right.Cent percent agreed.We should be> > > > > mindless,> > > > > > > > > otherwise> > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > mi27 <gopiib927ill not leave us alone.My > >u> > > > > > > > > > > > >d " when weVinita jie> > > > > > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > > > > > > are with GOD''.MAHARSHI RAMANA also spoke > > > > > > > ofmindonasa( destruction> > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > > mind)....> > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopiGu> > > > > > > > > > > > > *> > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology<ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>,> > > > > > > > > > > " shankar_mamta " > > > > > > > > > > > > > <st rega_mamta@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Gopi ji,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " but 'ncient_ithe mind " is also an imagination> which> > > > > comes> > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > > > > mind> > > > > > > > > > > >anka only " > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is very true....so long as we have no > EXPERIENCE> > > of> > > > > > > THAT.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To approachnation which e to be mindless,> perhaps! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > rue.>..inita> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology<ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>,> > > > > > > > > > > " gopi_b927 " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi_b927@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinita ji,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you 4the nice post though it is not> > > addressed2me.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > //Mind > > >haps nothing but identification of > the> > > self> > > > > > > with i,> > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ego. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once ego vanishes nothing should affect> us....and> > > we> > > > > > > become> > > > > > > > > free > > > > > > > > > Mind of> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >g buma...mukta. //> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this is really >ood but ''beyond the mind " is> also> > > an > > > > > > > > > imagination> > > > > > > > > > > > > > which> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > comes through mind only know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THATS THE PUZLE HERE......> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In> ancient_indian_ astrology<ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>,> > > > > > > > > > > " shankar_mamta " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shankar_mamta@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bohra ji,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To my " mind " , moksha is going beyond the> > > " mind " ....no> > > > > > > matter > > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > much> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > an oxymoron that may be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God may be in the mind...but beyond the mind> is> > > where> > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > > > >how> > > > > > > > > > > > > >ha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > >.....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needless to say beyond th God days where> karma> > > > > ceases. So> > > > > > > > > long as > > > > > > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > are> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the mind, the karmic circus continues...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind is perhaps nothing but identification of > the> > > > > self> > > > > > > with> > > > > > > > > i,> > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ego. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once ego vanishes nothing shoes...> > > > > > > > > fect us....and we become free> > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > karma...mukta.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They say that that is what we always> are...sans> > > > > > > maya...sans > > > > > > > > > > > ego....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our true roopa always is....chidanand. .. > > > shivoham,> > > > > > > shivoham!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But i totally agree with u that till we > become> > > THAT /> > > > > > > TAT,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the mind...including God...> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > B> Regards and best wishes,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vinita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Regar > > > > > > > > > > >nd best >shes,> > > > > > > > > > n ancient_indian_ astrology<ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>,> > > > > > > > > > > " msbohra62 " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > msbohra62@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Members,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One question for all,it is the biggest> > > > > questioohra62y> > > > > > > mind> > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > so> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years,is :-> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu worship his different > " Ishwar-Devi- Devta " > > > and> > > > > > > getting> > > > > > > > > > > desire> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > result,spiritually satisfaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Muslims worship hiu worshh " they are also getting there > > > desire> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > result> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and satisfy with his Allah.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian's worship his god and getting > desire> > > > > result.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the common factors in above all > and> > > what> > > > > are >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > differences> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > is the " ultimate-fact " ?Where is the Ishwar,Allah and> > > > > > > > > > > > > > God> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it not in our mind only ?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The biggest creation or invention of Humen> is> > > this> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Param-Satta " (Ishwar,Allah, God,etc;) .Man > created> > > the> > > > > God> > > > > > > or> > > > > > > > > God> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > created> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man ?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many times we discussed others topics not> > > related> > > > > to> > > > > > > > > Astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directly,please share your thoughts on > >> > > >subject.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Ints onent_indian_ astrology@ yaho> > > > ps.com> > > > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>,> > > > > > > > > > > Manoj Chn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chnndran_maan_ manoj@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Gopi Ji,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >onde > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > funderful thoughts, simple and true !!! How> can> > > we> > > > > > > > > recognize > > > > > > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which we are not? Outside is a reflection of> the> > > > > inside. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Manoj> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi_b927 <gopi_b92 To:.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To:> ancient_indian_ astrology<ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com> > > > > > > > > > <ancient_indian_ astrology% 40. com>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, September 3, 2009 6:47:33 > AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [ancient_indian_ astroloMoksha. ..> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ehta ji,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if we s suca aoss s ph a n weomawe> may> > > not > > > > > > > > > recogni.....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > r.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > >> > >> >>> > Love Cricket? 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Guest guest Report post Posted September 8, 2009 Dear Paranadasa Ji, I agree One ness.This is only One in all of us.But not agree that Maya is Mithya or Bhram ,appropiate word is Curtail(Parda)/Snow behind this is Ultimate truth.If we remove this Curtail than we can see the Ultimate Truth.Ultimate Truth is hidden behind this Curtail/Snow. So there is no point of liberation here,as per my understanding. Thanks, M.S.Bohra , s s <freemorons wrote: > > My dear Bohraji, > You have asked such an excellent question - a very fine question that ideal > sadhakas who *think *should ask. Thank you for that.. > > Question: Are deities not merely symbols? > Answer: There are 2 ways to investigate the correct answers to a question: > Start from scratch and do each and every bit of investigation ourself...or > 2) Build upon what is already known and proven, so that we advance knowledge > of entire mankind. Since it is difficult to do meditation to analyze all the > " from step 1 " questions ( The bhagawatam indicates that it may take upto > 60,000 years of concentrated effort to arrive at the first step of the > Vedas) we can chose the second option - much like the modern world of > science. How do we know what the other people have said in shastras is true? > Because independent rishi's have arrived at the same conclusion separately, > after meditating and have realized (got sakshatkar) and have recorded this > as being true in the shastras. For the record here, I have to make clear > that I consider the following as shastras: The vedas, the itihasas, some > puranas and the pancharatra). > > At the heart of your question is the element of advaita - the belief that > there is only one soul and that there are no other souls, and all of what we > are seeing and experiencing is mithya (maya), which will become " ONE " at the > time of liberation. This is the radical concept that Adi Shankaracharya > brought into Hinduism from Buddhism (it was not his original concept too, he > attributes it clearly to his guru GauDapAda). The advaita school maintains > that we are all ONE and that there is no difference at all. Before I proceed > to answer your question in detail with pramANas from the scriptures, I > would like to know your thoughts on this front - do you to this > thought of ONE-ness? > > hari smaraNs, > prANadAsa > > > > On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:54 AM, msbohra62 <msbohra62 wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Paranadasa ji, > > > > You have the respect of your Guruji's word as you have stated as a " Gift " , > > > > //Guruji: " In ancient times, the sages had to use symbols and tell stories > > to make common people understand deep scientific concepts. It is upto us to > > unravel them. Do not reject things before analyzing, for then you are doing > > a great disservice to all their efforts " .// > > > > Now my basic question in other words to you again " The all our Deities are > > not only symbols ? " > > > > I am not denial about the ultimate power here and I am also doing worship > > some deities in my regular day life.But I would like to say it is pure > > science,a great..great Psychology behind all deities, about Human > > Psychology.A self hypnosis process which opens all the ways to grow > > accordingly to worship of deities and the keen force(Desire) of the person > > who worship his deities to achieve his desire target. > > > > When you recite 'Durgaspatsati " you feel every thing is happens within you > > only,all the " Devi-roop " and Ashur are within us.To fight the > > Ashur(Tamsik-tatva) we have to concentrate on good(Satvik-tatva) > > thoughts.Who are in practice to recite " Durgasatsati " they can feel it.All > > the " Kavach " are the best example of self hypnosis process. > > > > Knowing the " Shastra " ,understanding the " Shastra " and getting the real > > essence of 'Shastra' all are very different things.After the journey of > > whole universe(Shastra)we come to understand the real " point " where we have > > to take journey for realization of real truth,why we should not start the > > journey form this point at beginning. > > > > I means to say Ishawar or ultimate power is within us only,have to > > recognise it, learn to activate it and to achieve it.How to reduce > > " Tamsik " , " Rajsik " tatva and develop more and more " Satvik " tatva within > > ourself.Every creation of this universe is only mixer of these three tatva. > > > > I do not have any 'Shastra " references about it so please don't asked me to > > put it here,its all my little personal experiences.Sharing it here to know > > that others also have the same experiences in their personal life or not. > > > > If you find this message according to you a " Avidhya " ,booki > > knowledge,limited understanding etc than please after reading forget it for > > all the time.Because its all my personal observations and on the risk of > > being taken as foolish,i am sharing here for other members. > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > --- te: > > > > > > Dear Bohra I, > > > If i starcount tunt the faults in me, I may take many many lifetimes and > > to cou not be able to couem them fully... > > > > > > > > I am very open to discussion, but those entering the discussion have the > > > great responsibility of putting their matters across clearly and briefly, > > so > > > that people listening to them can understand it. This is the second rule > > to > > > be followed in any tatva-vada. But, the first is to quot quote the > > shastras > > > as pramaaNa to txactly wtly whais to quto quoting (in sat) and and from > > > wherelltt peoplpeopl they arhis not ome ermant iant idut isut is accoro > > that p > > > > the VVdas..Whskkit?kkrit Why nnot hindi or ass? Becasecauseetraiions > > ions > > o othherother anguages cannbe danggemese? Benorrect asllatiy to oe entoee> > > meanin > > > > f the of tte st -eemen --for exxampe, thee word " varNa " has led to many > > > compns inions in Hnduissm by misunderstanding The llst rulle is that > > ation > > should employ point by poponseesponses o queestions asked so that thedebate > > > is fru > > uitful to the readers and the discussants. There are three simple rules > > > of discussion. > > > > > > We have been given intelligence so that we employ it in the service of > > > Paramatma - and we do this by investiand discud diussing.....and that can > > be > > > de successfslly ononlying and dwing rules ( like we addrryone > > >ryone > > tfuspecectfuy andnd also sign emai). When I I d nototee these being g > > followed, > > > I waited for further emails to clarify them, and to answer the questions > > I > > > asked (still waiting for them) - but they did not come, leading me to > > > believe that this is less of a discussion and more of parading of one's > > > limited understanding. I have never described or felt that I am a > > > teacher...I dont know what made you come to that conclu > > > I. > > > > > > I amtillll open to debate, I have much toearn i in lif. > > > but I do not > > > intend to waste precioun lime in listeng t to more avidya in disguise - > > and > > > t only waway we can ish itguish it wn strarangers speak, is the use of > > > shastra- prngug..if mymy demanding this from you rect, trrn I sho I > > shouou > > > withd > > hdraw from the debate. > > > > > > Alsorrerr, th this cu current physical body is immat.so my age > > >my > > > vis-a-vis > > vis yours is just a matter of timehat iat is whl. If you. If yeelf> you > > you are older than me, and I should keeI. Iel. Ithen so be it. > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > prA> > > >sa. > > > > > On On > > > > > On p 6, Sep 6, 200 PM, msbohraohrab2@sbohr2 (AT) sbo (DOT) .>62: wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Par 1:1a PM, <ms> > > <msb > > > > > > the > > > > topic with free of mind but ission,you ilur ah mindseas with mindset. > > > > > > > > Problems are attitwith o fewttitude,by few conversati > > > > > Psome one we > > > > assuming what he is an few c he haatioe outh some quire the seat of > > > > " Teacher " and tre he have.as a stud we arey,where we are all student > > here in > > > > this world.By getting ,where ecific knowledge of the particular subject > > we > > > > think that we are trity oal authority on this subject.At this level we > > leave > > > > to learn more and appear always with some mindset.Further development > > stop > > > > here because we stop to learn or understand other new view on the > > subject. > > > > > > > > Many times it happens with me also when my children asks me some > > questions > > > > and i have no answer or the answer make me to do some thing els which i > > > > never like to do or the answer leads me to accept his/her v> c is more > > > > correct than me.These all a direct hit to my ego,my orether " figure > > post > > > > cold not digest it than i use some anger or taken herd to sther word to > > stop > > > > him/her to asking such questions again.It happens with all of us so > > many > > > > times. > > > > > > > > But in fact questions remain in His/her mind but they understand that > > they > > > > have knocked the wrong door. > > > > > > > > What you have analyzed and how you came to on conclusion it was all > > your > > > > presumptions.Please read again mu message,yes i asked so many question > > but > > > > if you give answer to yourself you will realize they all are just leads > > > > there ,which i want to convey.There is no offensive word and act in my > > > > message where you have used so many word which are absolutely a > > offensive > > > > act only. " Svetaketu " was the peak of your mindset about me. > > > > > > > > I am a very commonman as like evdu.I haved Hindu.I have no achievement > > in > > > > spiritual side to claind Hhave not > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > It is your greatness that you taken my questions to reply me reatney to > > > > make me understand your's views on the subject.For that I am very > > thankful > > > > to you. > > > > > > > > I have no so command on language and expressen power as like you so > > take my > > > > post expreommon man who can convey the message only. > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > @grou> > > > > > -cient_indian_astrology%40Bo > > ra > > > >ci<freemorons@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bohraji, > > > > >at was a gregre quot, similmilar tohe on from om Chandogya uishadEvot, > > similmilar tohe on > > > om om Chand > > > > > > yA > > > > > > > > AAO kaa > > vtvbmmvaaO kaa > > >nn t > > > > > > > > t > > > aOtiuu > > > > > > >aEEEIIaAaaA a > > mm > > > > > > aIvtvbmmva > > O ka> > > > h > > t > > > > > t > > > d > > auuu > > > > > > >ayzzd tt > , dnn,ri , rihh > > > l cc ae > > > >> >tayaft > > > > aftayaftayzzd tt > , > > > > dnn,ri , rif > > > l c > > aeri> rif bif l c> l c > > > > , dn > > > > a> > > > ff bif l c > > > > n cc, > > > > se > > > >ife w > > e wodsdl wherl wherl ancne e son t wlahatfbeii tondis > > ..ifu > > > .idret > > > > g > > >fo > > > > ata > > > > > > > > > > > >trtta > > > > > > y > > > > r atrtlings,ngs, Ii I tng t gstruly ul. do..ia isattet th tat gat at s > > > > od in sho > > > > dng g howingng tes and peopl of pepeoe. We have toto relyst > > > > > unundetstandinghehe wos ththathe email contains - communicating using > > > > > > > different words shows the different mindsets, and I merely said what > > was > > > > my > > > > > analysis of your emails. It may entirely be possible that I am just > > an > > > > > idiotic upstart who does not understand the greatness of your > > spiritual > > > > > growth...only paramAtma knows. > > > > > > > > > Whe clien n fht on whlohlnanntertedssr rr heth > > > > teotheth > > > > teotton yty ryy > > > > n yee ryys recrls > > > > ebeaeltae > > > > b eeltaal bhehe cel eeche r > > > > >pechee c > > > > >pechI kyig..aI kg > > > > g.hnaIeek yheaets theeetthat hat ilh fhaa ill fhat > > > > mrorfiofl > > > > mrorrrofrm> frr t > > > > > :h:)forg> > > > > th:)givgi > > > > rgforgivyorgforgivs > > > > aN m ,s > > > > sNs> > > > > , > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > ,2011,0,20,2011 20,9 at 1, > > > > 11 20 A a ms, m11ohr AMbomsbohra62 <msbohra62@> >> > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear P > > > > ar Para ji, > > > > >r st t m > > > > > > > > after > s m me after > st ime timet lose thmet > > > > yomethae one you buon on easona aysonaly.alay.> ashe ly.I > > > > ly.I > > > > > >pit iiee te to trererto oo havr ablrto rbleothr ablter rbte > > > > theto > > > > >e e > > > > ote > > > > to > > > > ote > > > > > ti > > > > h tite > tith prsr > > > > ine fur > > > > furwi > > > > ine fur > > > > fu > > > > wit > > > > tneait q > > > > > > > > it > > > > t > > > > oneait qshis t w onuof h w on of hsivia whicvsivsvenoearf r rf > > Budduddor KP > > > > ich wAstrr recen, > > > > >l> > > > > l > / > > > > > > > > / > > > > > " D/ nol nologer el ng ng he said jsstdout ofout oectefor him. Doim. > > Do > > > > not > > > > > > believe > > > > > > thing shmply bmply because you have heard it. Do not believe in > > > > anything > > > > > > simply > > > > > > because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in > > anything > > > > simply > > > > > > because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe > > in > > > > > > anything > > > > > > merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe > > in > > > > > > traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. > > But > > > > > > after > > > > > > observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with > > > > reason > > > > > > and is > > > > > > conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it > > and > > > > live > > > > > > up to > > > > > > it. " > > > > > > -Lord Buddha// > > > > > > > > > > > > Pranam to you, > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ji, > > > > > Bohraji, > > > > > w plan " Doo we kow plants do mind " mind " - Pleat you ine wh > > > > > > 1em > > > > youha-Do > > > > > > > > > > w > > > > > > > > yoeng- mang re calre calling d " minm cmean.. ean ) .alave no pwe Atm. > > Bind > > > > > l > > > > einl > > > > Mind dorn, Misn, Mind ( wemal teof nasnwy isnty in par bnas)n nfain n > > wa > > > > aci > > > > ysl nerc > > > > > > s > > > > maiand vou bapaaciadvacd bp > > > > sys ato cticed aaciadv9to ctifslli to ct9% > > > > > > > > > > > > 99to plhse.t.. adv99% > > > > erefoe..> of herefe..fso pd > > > > >eereroe...ss > > > > > > > > > > > e..areefd > > > > >y > > > > carefo..ss > > > > >> > > > > > > cado nully > > > > >l> >m-es dond thasis > > > > not > > > > is > > > > nett have aatot > > > > hatis thatha,,ett have > > > > ett have s > > > > no tthatha,, cthen ttith it.. Rfer tify it.. r> sigli " " > > > > hs > > > > hated > sigst " " > > > > staaated sannd, > > > > havystatud ea > > > > aannth bo> udntud eavyd yot bo>it b ntu g dtid as -it b -ig -g - Id st > > aso > > > > i -ig -ni a - n dtd > > > > ot g -is w > > > > ng,ot dtd sot cg- I cla wot m > > > > > > > > > > eig, I claI Ia m > > > > > > > > > > eare > 2) I Ia me..e aware of Mundaka upan> > > > > > > s w of y oaks " dvaa supa Mand > > > > ka up > > > > > > ayuj w ofhaunaa.s " dvaa sasa dfam> > > > > > > vsa syujaa ak v bidur > > > > > > > > > > > bsuaupam > > > > o v bvsur > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > w bi bidur > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bsuaaup..ouu bidur > > > > > > > > > > > > > >sat > > > > is cea lh > > > > > la kackaouudye.l > > > > > > .ouu> > > > > > >pk > .. > > > > to ealore t>run w > > > > exlore theen yn yo > > > > > wihpkrllhn to Turore thlei w > > > > exlore the purfna wi wikya puran > > > > > > > > > > > o t(aefie > > > > > > >undekya rurfna wi,dulse puran > > > > > applse - if you e w youw> > tow e w you > > > > > > to > > > > > > yu to becbcouraguraged (if ou a > > > > gt aged (if ou arrtthe latte, in in the latter case, youdeio > > > > > >nto ma > > > > > deeper ifrom Godhead.away from Godhead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our questions not not made me uneasy, they have disappointed me. > > > > Please > > > > > > > remember that I was defending your asking questionYour the > > beginning. > > > > But > > > > > > > yor style of wwricomes acrosscross as bookish and art, ant, > > whichot > > > > > > > con > > > > > > > conducive to discussion... you sound like Svetaketu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > prANadsa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > epS5, 2005, 2009006 AM: M, msbM, ms2 <msboh<msbohra62@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Very s > > > > > > y sorry tha my haa my have takAsa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ngly and , Ser 5, 200u12qu12:16 A> wron > > > > > > e anglye alsha " ShSha " Sharudh-harudh Vea> > Very e u ahve me. > > > > > > >neo w > > > > > > kno > > > > > > tkn > > > > > > knowat noant ot P not ha h not haquethe n wh ?Than who control > > theot > > > > " Shd > > > > > > act > > > > > > gand actid totivity ? > > > > > > > ca> > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > ca> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dm we Dm wwith ngrmtats Pand it is nd it is not Shastra-Vctudh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ea> > > > > > > >reg earcing inrchingyow have ou hhave ou havanths aGe only are > > only > > > > > > > > roadm am in se am in search wit> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ki > > > > > > > > Asking sens aae sens are nothern youwhern you hg non-humble > > with > > > > any > > > > > > one.If > > > > > > > n itapohan itpfolo i apfoogiz> >me.s> > > > > > > > >me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I a questiohave limited understandthat or that reasons i have a > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > these questions here, before wise persons as like you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't use Bhaskar ji,Shastra-Virudh,losing faith in > > > > > > Sanatan-Dharma > > > > > > > > op me ts apising tae ques the questions whmade yoe uneasyou > > > > uneasy.I am > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > have the capacity to influence the youth of massto stop > > > > > > me> > > > > > > to arisng theching the ultimathave ma e you ar,e us aside us and > > > > youclaimi > > > > > > g it is ing i in outer win outer widld,out side of us.It is the > > only > > > > > > > > difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pranam, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > e: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One neorld,ouunhat isnd what is being said before and after > > and > > > > also > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > iing di > > > > > > cussed beforussed before we come to the conclusion. > > > > > > >and whf the mind is everything, then do plants not have jivas > > (they > > > > have > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ent > > > > > > > > ral nervous system ad so nno brain aousne consciousness)?ve no > > is > > > > just > > > > > > ulu> > rd iculuss, and is shasta-er uddhaa. Oher taa the ImmAmsak> > > > > > > anddthe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nA, the xistnss, the theriterii te alri bbaie a als, > > > > > > > > > nAs . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nAsa. > > > > > > >> > ireche eihe > > > > > > > > > > > > > ioayb ouiheccrdinss, the oob thino. Otheoooo thsho. Ottleritthan > > > > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > dbb> S > > > > > > >nd he > > > > > > > > i nAstidtel telling> di > > > > > > > > irecheno manee oaoaanggu sbbcribebl > > > > > > ee> > to thsh are deecribing> > > > > > > > > he symptom, we t e talke tel oelling > > > > > > hobse dselis no mang > > > > > > , oelangno stThete is > > > > > > is an attribute of the soung ong the symfaculties it > > > > > > talkinu ab, just like thderlying. > > > > > > > >> p > > > > > > > > > I am sorry to saan attribute olanations you have given have > > > > > > disappointed > > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > - I thought it was a sincere question by a jignyasi. Contrary > > to > > > > > > this, > > > > > > > > > aears > > > > > > > > rs to > > > > > > > > to be the display ofs ow's own limited understanding -, it > > > > > > > > > a of > > > > > > > > > showcasing your talent, you have made some of us understand > > the > > > > level > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > which yog -, it > > > > > > rogressed spiritually. I no yourerstand Bhaskarji's > > > > > > > > slight > > > > > > > > ndenstanearl- healiedzed it muit much earlier than Id> > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the same Brlier - he quote mercilessly in KrishnsKsays " > > says > > > > > > > > " ahaMkArO > > > > > > > > > vimUaham sarvEt: " : a > > In the i,aignor on thrnth > > > > thinthinkinthly > > > > > > in Kris > > > > > > > >says > > > > > > t I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > s > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > s > > > > > > > > > g zeo-oI seo- I sudo-acaddo-acad thrntursuits.... ta > > med>treeed> > > > > > > > > > ae ti > > > > > > ndize and dighe arrogmatter snti ignoaaat I > > > > > > or atlease one> I > > > > > > > o > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gezeo-oI seo- I sudtwirs. It rs. It p because of such deon > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ahlotuss > > > > > > > > lotuss it witters are losing faith in sanAtrma. > > > > > > > > >ar hari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > > > prANa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i, ma. > > > > > > > > <rbohrabohrm62 <rbo2ANaa <msb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1:for : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :, msbohr1:for :, msbohrareply t take my question as :>200 > > //Where > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /Where you realise allyou realise ge,aftkn getting the > > knowledge > > > > where > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > feel the changes about yourself.If you get the knowledget t > > > > > > > > " Param-Tatva " > > > > > > > > > > where you feel it ?Than where is Ishm-Tatxa is Param-Tatva > > is > > > > not a > > > > > > > > Physical > > > > > > > > > > a Phtsicalt an howar-Ta/ > > > > > > > > t > > > > > > > > > > aham-Ta/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wi-Ta/t> > > > > > > > > > >ana " ithouc " Jaywilee wem ?//ensesee hem ?//ens seeour ?//eull > > > > > > > > >tiolhnoillulslityohappons inlity happons in ouy happeis in dur > > > > > > > > wef > > > > > > ouc > > > > > > > > D > > > > > > > > iay han any Deiay han any Deiay han any D in our hs also > > > > > > > > na > > > > > > > > > id hn Br " Taaavgid in BG " Tatavgyans also it hua gyad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > k > hai artha hi > > > > > > > > > > hai arsiva anay dev ke sihchavashkuch hai > > > > > > > > > > h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > v hi > > > > > > > > > > ev > > > > > > > > e svva > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anay ucyhei h v seudav > > > > > > > > > h > > > > > > > > .eihappeeratudav > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .e happeerat eashudes,ke si a > > > > > > > > alay ku.h hyy higlahim " > > > > > > > > > re happet is also a stathe > > > > > > > > am agyab.E > > > > > > > > eey ree > > > > > > > > isomhwn i > > > > > > > > tha > > > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eate of mind > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >every, > > > > > > > > > > > tra > > > > > > > > > d > > > > > > > > > > m > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >he:o> > > > > > > > > > > m.heltlmata g goaoal is toealize t the > > > > > > > > > > > themtness of Paramtatva to The mamucapacicityty withius, > > f r > > > > no > > > > > > one c > > > > > > > > a to T > > > > > > > > e mamuderstacityty wire us, f m ci one c cble e exten The p > > > > Paramtrtve > > > > > > > > maximum > > > > > > > > amucapasable e exten Th > > > > > > > > p Paraoadmaps -ntenentantarnow q d such gretrarar n cimy > > meantene e > > > > > > > > exten T ones - - and -ngsfar and r idual capat> > > > > > > > > >ant> J > > > > > > > > > > >admaas -nteneionntarn fuio of he ratio > > > > > > ravelaralpaalpaapaoitdendnnn > > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > anyaand -ngs > > > > > > > > >r and r idual c > > > > > > > > ,nt> > > > > > > > > > octti > > > > > > > > > > > Jnyalal,naelaln,ion, fuiopart of the b ar iara > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > apaoiy.ainion oesthe emotiouf > > > > > > > > > > nctun > > > > > > > > > >encs nnctiontsy that ou belal,naelale ple par > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pa> in the b are > > > > > > > > > ead.Your> > torta lat esthe emotir is > > > > > > > > foY>urdca > > > > > > > > mmencs ts atanishadanishad's reveal that thade ade of he > > > > > > formGodhyad.Youre > > > > > > > > mporta lat er, w > > > > > > > > whacr is > > > > > > > > athemide e mind is the minahanahankarahankaal that tha > > > > > > > > e aderof ade cthechit > > > > > > > > as>> > >hitta (temoraar g), ahfethfe), ath adentigf, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > > > >f, > > > > > > > > > > > ory, > > > > > > > > > > ryory, > > > > > > > > > > r- of - o- of - of time),eetimetid). Wetid). Whilt tmat ry > > s > > > > > > > > > > at r > > > > > > > > > > liports > > > > > > > > > > lrtkno, krtkno, know idge is imphatathatathe matathe min > > the or > > > > > > > > > > >foeaora. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >, o not un o yound yd yound your qbouwherout " where > > istenee of > > > > > > > > > > tence ersta > > > > > > > > > > allderstanot undyour father. He isbaar, a so, a ,on, a ba > > son, > > > > a > > > > > > > > brofrienda > > > > > > > > > > > custom, a customer, aand, a fatherider - everything. The > > role > > > > le > > > > > > > > > > > roles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > roles, and people who seek him in different roles find him > > > > playing > > > > > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > > > > roles - your mother finds a loving husband because she > > sees a > > > > > > husband > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > him > > > > > > > > > > > and simultaneously you see a loving father in him. This > > is an > > > > > > example > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > divinity. Since you have read the BG you may be familiar > > with > > > > > > Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > affirming that He reveals Himself as what the devotee > > wants > > > > him > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Gurus have to be respected even before we worship > > > > divinity - > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > due to the bhiksha they gave us, that our eyes are op a > > bit. > > > > a > > > > > > bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > > > > > prANadAsa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >n evepen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sep 4, Seat 11:32 at 11:32 AM, msbohra62 <msbohra62@ e > > owen > > > > Sep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On009 at 11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > adAsa 009 adAsa ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > question is in my mind, which i > > > > > > > > > > > >2009 adAsedprANadAsa please reply me that what is the > > > > ultimalbu > > > > > > > > > > > > the " Gr > > > > > > > > > > > > the " Granth " to read and understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > th > > > > > > > > > > real> > th > > > > > > > > > > rea knowlll the knowledge,after gettinou whhre eou heere > > you > > > > > > > > > > the kel the changes about yourselfthe se agldgthe se alldge > > of > > > > " > > > > > > > > > > > am-Tatva " > > > > > > > > > > > > where ?Than where ishan wherexist ?Parr exitva ia not > > atva > > > > is > > > > > > not a > > > > > > > > > > Physical > > > > > > > > > > > > substanhwar eTltva yoram-Tl > > > > > > > > > > > > h Diff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Different peoplu wiram-ordyim ? > > > > > > > > > > ga> > > > > > > > > > > > gsaccorgingl g accordingly,as like > > > > > > > > > > > >an howShakti " l seeehim ?hip " Devi " roop,for > > Budhi-chaturay > > > > they > > > > > > > > worship > > > > > > > > > > ehi>?hip eDevi,for Dhan they worship " Laximimata " .Than > > > " Ganes > > > > > > thefor > > > > > > > > > > Dhance of > > > > > > > > > > > > alp " Lese Lmata " > > > > > > > > > > Than whe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >n understand that all th worese i " Laxiaimata " .T > > > > > > > > > > > >n undeess than any > > > > > > > > > > > > Lord b allse they have gi > > > > > > > > > > > > > I celigion and > > > > > > > > > > >nowledge which leads us to > > > > > > > > > > i > > > > > > > > > > > > >th c ligion andt of our self being to " Param-Gyan " (Uer > > det > > > > a > > > > > > > > religigf . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eing to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In <%40.\ com> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40><a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- tn aniannt_irdiogyastrologgroups.com>, > > > > > > > > > > > > s s> > > > > > > > > > > > >e> > ns@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Members, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mocking or repudiating members who asked a sincere > > > > question > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > bad - > > > > > > > > > > > > Bohraji > > > > > > > > > > > > > did not ask an obscene question...he asked a > > > > philosophical > > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > important enough to be discussed in the uis > > > > > > > > > > > > ds - so why are we > > > > > > > > > > > > getting > > > > > > > > > > > > > angry which > > > > > > > > > > >ing " no no, man did not create God, you should believe > > > > > > > > > > > > this " ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many of us have sincerely utilized our intellects > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > > servate > > > > > > > > > > God, y > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagawan and not just our hearts? Each one of us in a > > > > different > > > > > > > > spiritual > > > > > > > > > > > > > level...but as long as we are all spiritually curious > > > > with > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > intellect, > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > are going in the right directiont as lonf us, by > > virtue > > > > of > > > > > > > > sadhana > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > blessings in previous life, have received the nectar > > of > > > > > > > > > > Bhakti....others > > > > > > > > > > > > > have not yet got it...they will (i hope). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are also some here who have gone so far as to> > > > > > > > havat > > > > > > > > maybe > > > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > > > seers > > > > > > > > > > > > > who gave us the scriptures also may havme hersolved > > these > > > > > > > > questions - > > > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > is patently wrong. In the several thousand years of > > > > > > philosophical > > > > > > > > > > > > > development, it would be naive to assume that they > > did > > > > not go > > > > > > > > deep > > > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > > > most > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophical and existential matters and solve it. > > This > > > > > > clearly > > > > > > > > > > shows a > > > > > > > > > > > > > lack of understanding and a lack of study of > > " scriptures " > > > > - > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > armchair > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosopher approach. However, the latter part of > > this > > > > > > person's > > > > > > > > > > statement > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > partially correct - the spiritual experience cannot > > be > > > > put > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > > > does not mean that all questions cannot be answered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, Bohraji, upon reading these scriptures > > (kEna > > > > U. > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > particular) > > > > > > > > > > > > > and meditating, you may come to the realization that > > > > there is > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > origin > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Para-tatva...however, some sages lovingly call > > > > themselves > > > > > > > > > > alizatio > > > > > > > > > > > > father > > > > > > > > > > ly when he > > > > > > > > > > > > appear> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in front of them (they could speak only because of His > > > > kindness > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > permission anyway), and it is the duty of the f name > > to > > > > name > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > child. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Krishna appeared to be born to 2 sets of parents - as > > did > > > > > > Vamana > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > Aditi > > > > > > > > > > > > > and Kaashyapa etc...in such instances, these exalted > > > > devotees > > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > the pride of calling the greatest of the great, the > > one > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > origin, > > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > > their child. Bhaskarji is right, the Bhagawatam is a > > > > > > fantastic > > > > > > > > gold > > > > > > > > > > mine > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > information, but d the gnto est oly after you the one > > he > > > > > > Bhagawad > > > > > > > > > > gIta. > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > prANadAsa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:12 AM, gopi_b927 <gopi_b927@ > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Bhaga > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Dear V). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes you are right.Cent percent agreed.We should be > > > > > > mindless, > > > > > > > > > > otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mi27 <gopiib927ill not leave us alone.My > >u> > > > > > > > > > > > > >d " when weVinita jie > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are with GOD''.MAHARSHI RAMANA also spoke > > > > > > > > ofmindonasa(destruction > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mind).... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopiGu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In <%40.\ com> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > " shankar_mamta " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <st rega_mamta@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Gopi ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " but 'ncient_ithe mind " is also an imagination > > which > > > > > > comes > > > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > > > > > mind > > > > > > > > > > > > >anka only " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is very true....so long as we have no > > EXPERIENCE > > > > of > > > > > > > > THAT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To approachnation which e to be mindless, > > perhaps! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rue.>..inita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In <%40.\ com> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > " gopi_b927 " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi_b927@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinita ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you 4the nice post though it is not > > > > addressed2me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > //Mind > > >haps nothing but identification of > > the > > > > self > > > > > > > > with i, > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ego. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once ego vanishes nothing should affect > > us....and > > > > we > > > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > > > free > > > > > > > > > > Mind of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >g buma...mukta.// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this is really >ood but ''beyond the mind " is > > also > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > imagination > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > comes through mind only know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THATS THE PUZLE HERE...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > <%40.\ com> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > " shankar_mamta " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shankar_mamta@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bohra ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To my " mind " , moksha is going beyond the > > > > " mind " ....no > > > > > > > > matter > > > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > an oxymoron that may be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God may be in the mind...but beyond the mind > > is > > > > where > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > >how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > >..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needless to say beyond th God days where > > karma > > > > > > ceases. So > > > > > > > > > > long as > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the mind, the karmic circus continues... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind is perhaps nothing but identification of > > the > > > > > > self > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > i, > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ego. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once ego vanishes nothing shoes... > > > > > > > > > > fect us....and we become free > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > karma...mukta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They say that that is what we always > > are...sans > > > > > > > > maya...sans > > > > > > > > > > > > ego.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our true roopa always is....chidanand... > > > > shivoham, > > > > > > > > shivoham! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But i totally agree with u that till we > > become > > > > THAT / > > > > > > > > TAT, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the mind...including God... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > B> Regards and best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vinita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regar > > > > > > > > > > > >nd best >shes, > > > > > > > > > > > n <%40.\ com> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > " msbohra62 " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > msbohra62@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Members, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One question for all,it is the biggest > > > > > > questioohra62y > > > > > > > > mind > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years,is :- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu worship his different > > " Ishwar-Devi-Devta " > > > > and > > > > > > > > getting > > > > > > > > > > > > desire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > result,spiritually satisfaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Muslims worship hiu worshh " they are also getting there > > > > desire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > result > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and satisfy with his Allah. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian's worship his god and getting > > desire > > > > > > result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the common factors in above all > > and > > > > what > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > differences > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the " ultimate-fact " ?Where is the Ishwar,Allah and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it not in our mind only ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The biggest creation or invention of Humen > > is > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Param-Satta " (Ishwar,Allah,God,etc;).Man > > created > > > > the > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > created > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many times we discussed others topics not > > > > related > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > Astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directly,please share your thoughts on > > > > > > >subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Ints onent_indian_astrology@yaho> > > > > ps.com > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoj Chn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chnndran_maan_manoj@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Gopi Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >onde > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > funderful thoughts, simple and true !!! How > > can > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > recognize > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which we are not? Outside is a reflection of > > the > > > > > > inside. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Manoj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi_b927 <gopi_b92 To:.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > <%40.\ com> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, September 3, 2009 6:47:33 > > AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [ancient_indian_astroloMoksha... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ehta ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if we s suca aoss s ph a n weomawe > > may > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > recogni..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > r. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 10, 2009 Dear Bohraji,Sorry for the delay here - between moving to a new home and starting classes, detailed responses took a back seat! :)I am not clear by your response - recognizing that there is one IN us, and considering we are all ONE are 2 different things - for example, thinking that same GOD is in us is different from saying we are all GOD. So , please clarify what you mean by that...for the answers will vary very widely depending on that. Your conceptualization of " parda " is also in line with shastras - you just chose to call it differently, that's all. The sages of IshOpanishat pray to the Divine Spirit powering up the Sun, " hiraNmayena pAtreNa satyasyApihitaM mukhaM // tatvam pUshan apAvRuNu satya dharmAya dRuShThaye " ...meaning " Oh dear Lord, you are covered by this golden cloth which is brilliant and hiding your true personality, please, dear Giver of light, remove this curtain, so that we can see the truth hidden inside " , which is exactly what you are saying. They call this " golden cloth " which is hiding the truth, as " mAya " or " temporary " . The word " mAya " has multiple meanings (like every word in Sanskrit) and has lead to phenomenal confusion in interpretations. Rest of this later. Liberation is the ability to remove the curtain and see paramtatva ALL the time, at will, instead of just 0.025 seconds in dhyana. Again, I will detail the " pAda-darshaNa " in meditation later on. It is quite possible that you are an advanced soul, for even without upanishat-mathana in this birth, you seem to have some right concepts intrinsically - maybe sadhana from previous janma? Perhaps the esteemed astrologers here can see your birth chart and determine if you are indeed one. :-) hari smaraNs,prANadAsa.On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:00 PM, msbohra62 <msbohra62 wrote: Dear Paranadasa Ji, I agree One ness.This is only One in all of us.But not agree that Maya is Mithya or Bhram ,appropiate word is Curtail(Parda)/Snow behind this is Ultimate truth.If we remove this Curtail than we can see the Ultimate Truth.Ultimate Truth is hidden behind this Curtail/Snow. So there is no point of liberation here,as per my understanding. Thanks, M.S.Bohra , s s <freemorons wrote: > > My dear Bohraji, > You have asked such an excellent question - a very fine question that ideal > sadhakas who *think *should ask. Thank you for that.. > > Question: Are deities not merely symbols? > Answer: There are 2 ways to investigate the correct answers to a question: > Start from scratch and do each and every bit of investigation ourself...or > 2) Build upon what is already known and proven, so that we advance knowledge > of entire mankind. Since it is difficult to do meditation to analyze all the > " from step 1 " questions ( The bhagawatam indicates that it may take upto > 60,000 years of concentrated effort to arrive at the first step of the > Vedas) we can chose the second option - much like the modern world of > science. How do we know what the other people have said in shastras is true? > Because independent rishi's have arrived at the same conclusion separately, > after meditating and have realized (got sakshatkar) and have recorded this > as being true in the shastras. For the record here, I have to make clear > that I consider the following as shastras: The vedas, the itihasas, some > puranas and the pancharatra). > > At the heart of your question is the element of advaita - the belief that > there is only one soul and that there are no other souls, and all of what we > are seeing and experiencing is mithya (maya), which will become " ONE " at the > time of liberation. This is the radical concept that Adi Shankaracharya > brought into Hinduism from Buddhism (it was not his original concept too, he > attributes it clearly to his guru GauDapAda). The advaita school maintains > that we are all ONE and that there is no difference at all. Before I proceed > to answer your question in detail with pramANas from the scriptures, I > would like to know your thoughts on this front - do you to this > thought of ONE-ness? > > hari smaraNs, > prANadAsa > > > > On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:54 AM, msbohra62 <msbohra62 wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Paranadasa ji, > > > > You have the respect of your Guruji's word as you have stated as a " Gift " , > > > > //Guruji: " In ancient times, the sages had to use symbols and tell stories > > to make common people understand deep scientific concepts. It is upto us to > > unravel them. Do not reject things before analyzing, for then you are doing > > a great disservice to all their efforts " .// > > > > Now my basic question in other words to you again " The all our Deities are > > not only symbols ? " > > > > I am not denial about the ultimate power here and I am also doing worship > > some deities in my regular day life.But I would like to say it is pure > > science,a great..great Psychology behind all deities, about Human > > Psychology.A self hypnosis process which opens all the ways to grow > > accordingly to worship of deities and the keen force(Desire) of the person > > who worship his deities to achieve his desire target. > > > > When you recite 'Durgaspatsati " you feel every thing is happens within you > > only,all the " Devi-roop " and Ashur are within us.To fight the > > Ashur(Tamsik-tatva) we have to concentrate on good(Satvik-tatva) > > thoughts.Who are in practice to recite " Durgasatsati " they can feel it.All > > the " Kavach " are the best example of self hypnosis process. > > > > Knowing the " Shastra " ,understanding the " Shastra " and getting the real > > essence of 'Shastra' all are very different things.After the journey of > > whole universe(Shastra)we come to understand the real " point " where we have > > to take journey for realization of real truth,why we should not start the > > journey form this point at beginning. > > > > I means to say Ishawar or ultimate power is within us only,have to > > recognise it, learn to activate it and to achieve it.How to reduce > > " Tamsik " , " Rajsik " tatva and develop more and more " Satvik " tatva within > > ourself.Every creation of this universe is only mixer of these three tatva. > > > > I do not have any 'Shastra " references about it so please don't asked me to > > put it here,its all my little personal experiences.Sharing it here to know > > that others also have the same experiences in their personal life or not. > > > > If you find this message according to you a " Avidhya " ,booki > > knowledge,limited understanding etc than please after reading forget it for > > all the time.Because its all my personal observations and on the risk of > > being taken as foolish,i am sharing here for other members. > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > --- te: > > > > > > Dear Bohra I, > > > If i starcount tunt the faults in me, I may take many many lifetimes and > > to cou not be able to couem them fully... > > > > > > > > I am very open to discussion, but those entering the discussion have the > > > great responsibility of putting their matters across clearly and briefly, > > so > > > that people listening to them can understand it. This is the second rule > > to > > > be followed in any tatva-vada. But, the first is to quot quote the > > shastras > > > as pramaaNa to txactly wtly whais to quto quoting (in sat) and and from > > > wherelltt peoplpeopl they arhis not ome ermant iant idut isut is accoro > > that p > > > > the VVdas..Whskkit?kkrit Why nnot hindi or ass? Becasecauseetraiions > > ions > > o othherother anguages cannbe danggemese? Benorrect asllatiy to oe entoee> > > meanin > > > > f the of tte st -eemen --for exxampe, thee word " varNa " has led to many > > > compns inions in Hnduissm by misunderstanding The llst rulle is that > > ation > > should employ point by poponseesponses o queestions asked so that thedebate > > > is fru > > uitful to the readers and the discussants. There are three simple rules > > > of discussion. > > > > > > We have been given intelligence so that we employ it in the service of > > > Paramatma - and we do this by investiand discud diussing.....and that can > > be > > > de successfslly ononlying and dwing rules ( like we addrryone > > >ryone > > tfuspecectfuy andnd also sign emai). When I I d nototee these being g > > followed, > > > I waited for further emails to clarify them, and to answer the questions > > I > > > asked (still waiting for them) - but they did not come, leading me to > > > believe that this is less of a discussion and more of parading of one's > > > limited understanding. I have never described or felt that I am a > > > teacher...I dont know what made you come to that conclu > > > I. > > > > > > I amtillll open to debate, I have much toearn i in lif. > > > but I do not > > > intend to waste precioun lime in listeng t to more avidya in disguise - > > and > > > t only waway we can ish itguish it wn strarangers speak, is the use of > > > shastra- prngug..if mymy demanding this from you rect, trrn I sho I > > shouou > > > withd > > hdraw from the debate. > > > > > > Alsorrerr, th this cu current physical body is immat.so my age > > >my > > > vis-a-vis > > vis yours is just a matter of timehat iat is whl. If you. If yeelf> you > > you are older than me, and I should keeI. Iel. Ithen so be it. > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > prA> > > >sa. > > > > > On On > > > > > On p 6, Sep 6, 200 PM, msbohraohrab2@sbohr2 (AT) sbo (DOT) .>62: wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Par 1:1a PM, <ms> > > <msb > > > > > > the > > > > topic with free of mind but ission,you ilur ah mindseas with mindset. > > > > > > > > Problems are attitwith o fewttitude,by few conversati > > > > > Psome one we > > > > assuming what he is an few c he haatioe outh some quire the seat of > > > > " Teacher " and tre he have.as a stud we arey,where we are all student > > here in > > > > this world.By getting ,where ecific knowledge of the particular subject > > we > > > > think that we are trity oal authority on this subject.At this level we > > leave > > > > to learn more and appear always with some mindset.Further development > > stop > > > > here because we stop to learn or understand other new view on the > > subject. > > > > > > > > Many times it happens with me also when my children asks me some > > questions > > > > and i have no answer or the answer make me to do some thing els which i > > > > never like to do or the answer leads me to accept his/her v> c is more > > > > correct than me.These all a direct hit to my ego,my orether " figure > > post > > > > cold not digest it than i use some anger or taken herd to sther word to > > stop > > > > him/her to asking such questions again.It happens with all of us so > > many > > > > times. > > > > > > > > But in fact questions remain in His/her mind but they understand that > > they > > > > have knocked the wrong door. > > > > > > > > What you have analyzed and how you came to on conclusion it was all > > your > > > > presumptions.Please read again mu message,yes i asked so many question > > but > > > > if you give answer to yourself you will realize they all are just leads > > > > there ,which i want to convey.There is no offensive word and act in my > > > > message where you have used so many word which are absolutely a > > offensive > > > > act only. " Svetaketu " was the peak of your mindset about me. > > > > > > > > I am a very commonman as like evdu.I haved Hindu.I have no achievement > > in > > > > spiritual side to claind Hhave not > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > It is your greatness that you taken my questions to reply me reatney to > > > > make me understand your's views on the subject.For that I am very > > thankful > > > > to you. > > > > > > > > I have no so command on language and expressen power as like you so > > take my > > > > post expreommon man who can convey the message only. > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > @grou> > > > > > -cient_indian_astrology%40Bo > > ra > > > >ci<freemorons@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bohraji, > > > > >at was a gregre quot, similmilar tohe on from om Chandogya uishadEvot, > > similmilar tohe on > > > om om Chand > > > > > > yA > > > > > > > > AAO kaa > > vtvbmmvaaO kaa > > >nn t > > > > > > > > t > > > aOtiuu > > > > > > >aEEEIIaAaaA a > > mm > > > > > > aIvtvbmmva > > O ka> > > > h > > t > > > > > t > > > d > > auuu > > > > > > >ayzzd tt > , dnn,ri , rihh > > > l cc ae > > > >> >tayaft > > > > aftayaftayzzd tt > , > > > > dnn,ri , rif > > > l c > > aeri> rif bif l c> l c > > > > , dn > > > > a> > > > ff bif l c > > > > n cc, > > > > se > > > >ife w > > e wodsdl wherl wherl ancne e son t wlahatfbeii tondis > > ..ifu > > > .idret > > > > g > > >fo > > > > ata > > > > > > > > > > > >trtta > > > > > > y > > > > r atrtlings,ngs, Ii I tng t gstruly ul. do..ia isattet th tat gat at s > > > > od in sho > > > > dng g howingng tes and peopl of pepeoe. We have toto relyst > > > > > unundetstandinghehe wos ththathe email contains - communicating using > > > > > > > different words shows the different mindsets, and I merely said what > > was > > > > my > > > > > analysis of your emails. It may entirely be possible that I am just > > an > > > > > idiotic upstart who does not understand the greatness of your > > spiritual > > > > > growth...only paramAtma knows. > > > > > > > > > Whe clien n fht on whlohlnanntertedssr rr heth > > > > teotheth > > > > teotton yty ryy > > > > n yee ryys recrls > > > > ebeaeltae > > > > b eeltaal bhehe cel eeche r > > > > >pechee c > > > > >pechI kyig..aI kg > > > > g.hnaIeek yheaets theeetthat hat ilh fhaa ill fhat > > > > mrorfiofl > > > > mrorrrofrm> frr t > > > > > :h:)forg> > > > > th:)givgi > > > > rgforgivyorgforgivs > > > > aN m ,s > > > > sNs> > > > > , > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > n > > > > > > > > ,2011,0,20,2011 20,9 at 1, > > > > 11 20 A a ms, m11ohr AMbomsbohra62 <msbohra62@> >> > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear P > > > > ar Para ji, > > > > >r st t m > > > > > > > > after > s m me after > st ime timet lose thmet > > > > yomethae one you buon on easona aysonaly.alay.> ashe ly.I > > > > ly.I > > > > > >pit iiee te to trererto oo havr ablrto rbleothr ablter rbte > > > > theto > > > > >e e > > > > ote > > > > to > > > > ote > > > > > ti > > > > h tite > tith prsr > > > > ine fur > > > > furwi > > > > ine fur > > > > fu > > > > wit > > > > tneait q > > > > > > > > it > > > > t > > > > oneait qshis t w onuof h w on of hsivia whicvsivsvenoearf r rf > > Budduddor KP > > > > ich wAstrr recen, > > > > >l> > > > > l > / > > > > > > > > / > > > > > " D/ nol nologer el ng ng he said jsstdout ofout oectefor him. Doim. > > Do > > > > not > > > > > > believe > > > > > > thing shmply bmply because you have heard it. Do not believe in > > > > anything > > > > > > simply > > > > > > because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in > > anything > > > > simply > > > > > > because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe > > in > > > > > > anything > > > > > > merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe > > in > > > > > > traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. > > But > > > > > > after > > > > > > observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with > > > > reason > > > > > > and is > > > > > > conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it > > and > > > > live > > > > > > up to > > > > > > it. " > > > > > > -Lord Buddha// > > > > > > > > > > > > Pranam to you, > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ji, > > > > > Bohraji, > > > > > w plan " Doo we kow plants do mind " mind " - Pleat you ine wh > > > > > > 1em > > > > youha-Do > > > > > > > > > > w > > > > > > > > yoeng- mang re calre calling d " minm cmean.. ean ) .alave no pwe Atm. > > Bind > > > > > l > > > > einl > > > > Mind dorn, Misn, Mind ( wemal teof nasnwy isnty in par bnas)n nfain n > > wa > > > > aci > > > > ysl nerc > > > > > > s > > > > maiand vou bapaaciadvacd bp > > > > sys ato cticed aaciadv9to ctifslli to ct9% > > > > > > > > > > > > 99to plhse.t.. adv99% > > > > erefoe..> of herefe..fso pd > > > > >eereroe...ss > > > > > > > > > > > e..areefd > > > > >y > > > > carefo..ss > > > > >> > > > > > > cado nully > > > > >l> >m-es dond thasis > > > > not > > > > is > > > > nett have aatot > > > > hatis thatha,,ett have > > > > ett have s > > > > no tthatha,, cthen ttith it.. Rfer tify it.. r> sigli " " > > > > hs > > > > hated > sigst " " > > > > staaated sannd, > > > > havystatud ea > > > > aannth bo> udntud eavyd yot bo>it b ntu g dtid as -it b -ig -g - Id st > > aso > > > > i -ig -ni a - n dtd > > > > ot g -is w > > > > ng,ot dtd sot cg- I cla wot m > > > > > > > > > > eig, I claI Ia m > > > > > > > > > > eare > 2) I Ia me..e aware of Mundaka upan> > > > > > > s w of y oaks " dvaa supa Mand > > > > ka up > > > > > > ayuj w ofhaunaa.s " dvaa sasa dfam> > > > > > > vsa syujaa ak v bidur > > > > > > > > > > > bsuaupam > > > > o v bvsur > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > w bi bidur > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bsuaaup..ouu bidur > > > > > > > > > > > > > >sat > > > > is cea lh > > > > > la kackaouudye.l > > > > > > .ouu> > > > > > >pk > .. > > > > to ealore t>run w > > > > exlore theen yn yo > > > > > wihpkrllhn to Turore thlei w > > > > exlore the purfna wi wikya puran > > > > > > > > > > > o t(aefie > > > > > > >undekya rurfna wi,dulse puran > > > > > applse - if you e w youw> > tow e w you > > > > > > to > > > > > > yu to becbcouraguraged (if ou a > > > > gt aged (if ou arrtthe latte, in in the latter case, youdeio > > > > > >nto ma > > > > > deeper ifrom Godhead.away from Godhead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our questions not not made me uneasy, they have disappointed me. > > > > Please > > > > > > > remember that I was defending your asking questionYour the > > beginning. > > > > But > > > > > > > yor style of wwricomes acrosscross as bookish and art, ant, > > whichot > > > > > > > con > > > > > > > conducive to discussion... you sound like Svetaketu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > prANadsa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > epS5, 2005, 2009006 AM: M, msbM, ms2 <msboh<msbohra62@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Very s > > > > > > y sorry tha my haa my have takAsa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ngly and , Ser 5, 200u12qu12:16 A> wron > > > > > > e anglye alsha " ShSha " Sharudh-harudh Vea> > Very e u ahve me. > > > > > > >neo w > > > > > > kno > > > > > > tkn > > > > > > knowat noant ot P not ha h not haquethe n wh ?Than who control > > theot > > > > " Shd > > > > > > act > > > > > > gand actid totivity ? > > > > > > > ca> > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > ca> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dm we Dm wwith ngrmtats Pand it is nd it is not Shastra-Vctudh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ea> > > > > > > >reg earcing inrchingyow have ou hhave ou havanths aGe only are > > only > > > > > > > > roadm am in se am in search wit> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ki > > > > > > > > Asking sens aae sens are nothern youwhern you hg non-humble > > with > > > > any > > > > > > one.If > > > > > > > n itapohan itpfolo i apfoogiz> >me.s> > > > > > > > >me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I a questiohave limited understandthat or that reasons i have a > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > these questions here, before wise persons as like you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't use Bhaskar ji,Shastra-Virudh,losing faith in > > > > > > Sanatan-Dharma > > > > > > > > op me ts apising tae ques the questions whmade yoe uneasyou > > > > uneasy.I am > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > have the capacity to influence the youth of massto stop > > > > > > me> > > > > > > to arisng theching the ultimathave ma e you ar,e us aside us and > > > > youclaimi > > > > > > g it is ing i in outer win outer widld,out side of us.It is the > > only > > > > > > > > difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pranam, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > e: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One neorld,ouunhat isnd what is being said before and after > > and > > > > also > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > iing di > > > > > > cussed beforussed before we come to the conclusion. > > > > > > >and whf the mind is everything, then do plants not have jivas > > (they > > > > have > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ent > > > > > > > > ral nervous system ad so nno brain aousne consciousness)?ve no > > is > > > > just > > > > > > ulu> > rd iculuss, and is shasta-er uddhaa. Oher taa the ImmAmsak> > > > > > > anddthe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nA, the xistnss, the theriterii te alri bbaie a als, > > > > > > > > > nAs . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nAsa. > > > > > > >> > ireche eihe > > > > > > > > > > > > > ioayb ouiheccrdinss, the oob thino. Otheoooo thsho. Ottleritthan > > > > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > dbb> S > > > > > > >nd he > > > > > > > > i nAstidtel telling> di > > > > > > > > irecheno manee oaoaanggu sbbcribebl > > > > > > ee> > to thsh are deecribing> > > > > > > > > he symptom, we t e talke tel oelling > > > > > > hobse dselis no mang > > > > > > , oelangno stThete is > > > > > > is an attribute of the soung ong the symfaculties it > > > > > > talkinu ab, just like thderlying. > > > > > > > >> p > > > > > > > > > I am sorry to saan attribute olanations you have given have > > > > > > disappointed > > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > - I thought it was a sincere question by a jignyasi. Contrary > > to > > > > > > this, > > > > > > > > > aears > > > > > > > > rs to > > > > > > > > to be the display ofs ow's own limited understanding -, it > > > > > > > > > a of > > > > > > > > > showcasing your talent, you have made some of us understand > > the > > > > level > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > which yog -, it > > > > > > rogressed spiritually. I no yourerstand Bhaskarji's > > > > > > > > slight > > > > > > > > ndenstanearl- healiedzed it muit much earlier than Id> > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the same Brlier - he quote mercilessly in KrishnsKsays " > > says > > > > > > > > " ahaMkArO > > > > > > > > > vimUaham sarvEt: " : a > > In the i,aignor on thrnth > > > > thinthinkinthly > > > > > > in Kris > > > > > > > >says > > > > > > t I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > s > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > s > > > > > > > > > g zeo-oI seo- I sudo-acaddo-acad thrntursuits.... ta > > med>treeed> > > > > > > > > > ae ti > > > > > > ndize and dighe arrogmatter snti ignoaaat I > > > > > > or atlease one> I > > > > > > > o > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gezeo-oI seo- I sudtwirs. It rs. It p because of such deon > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ahlotuss > > > > > > > > lotuss it witters are losing faith in sanAtrma. > > > > > > > > >ar hari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > > > prANa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i, ma. > > > > > > > > <rbohrabohrm62 <rbo2ANaa <msb> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1:for : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :, msbohr1:for :, msbohrareply t take my question as :>200 > > //Where > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /Where you realise allyou realise ge,aftkn getting the > > knowledge > > > > where > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > feel the changes about yourself.If you get the knowledget t > > > > > > > > " Param-Tatva " > > > > > > > > > > where you feel it ?Than where is Ishm-Tatxa is Param-Tatva > > is > > > > not a > > > > > > > > Physical > > > > > > > > > > a Phtsicalt an howar-Ta/ > > > > > > > > t > > > > > > > > > > aham-Ta/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wi-Ta/t> > > > > > > > > > >ana " ithouc " Jaywilee wem ?//ensesee hem ?//ens seeour ?//eull > > > > > > > > >tiolhnoillulslityohappons inlity happons in ouy happeis in dur > > > > > > > > wef > > > > > > ouc > > > > > > > > D > > > > > > > > iay han any Deiay han any Deiay han any D in our hs also > > > > > > > > na > > > > > > > > > id hn Br " Taaavgid in BG " Tatavgyans also it hua gyad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > k > hai artha hi > > > > > > > > > > hai arsiva anay dev ke sihchavashkuch hai > > > > > > > > > > h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > v hi > > > > > > > > > > ev > > > > > > > > e svva > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anay ucyhei h v seudav > > > > > > > > > h > > > > > > > > .eihappeeratudav > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .e happeerat eashudes,ke si a > > > > > > > > alay ku.h hyy higlahim " > > > > > > > > > re happet is also a stathe > > > > > > > > am agyab.E > > > > > > > > eey ree > > > > > > > > isomhwn i > > > > > > > > tha > > > > > > > > it is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eate of mind > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >every, > > > > > > > > > > > tra > > > > > > > > > d > > > > > > > > > > m > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >he:o> > > > > > > > > > > m.heltlmata g goaoal is toealize t the > > > > > > > > > > > themtness of Paramtatva to The mamucapacicityty withius, > > f r > > > > no > > > > > > one c > > > > > > > > a to T > > > > > > > > e mamuderstacityty wire us, f m ci one c cble e exten The p > > > > Paramtrtve > > > > > > > > maximum > > > > > > > > amucapasable e exten Th > > > > > > > > p Paraoadmaps -ntenentantarnow q d such gretrarar n cimy > > meantene e > > > > > > > > exten T ones - - and -ngsfar and r idual capat> > > > > > > > > >ant> J > > > > > > > > > > >admaas -nteneionntarn fuio of he ratio > > > > > > ravelaralpaalpaapaoitdendnnn > > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > anyaand -ngs > > > > > > > > >r and r idual c > > > > > > > > ,nt> > > > > > > > > > octti > > > > > > > > > > > Jnyalal,naelaln,ion, fuiopart of the b ar iara > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > apaoiy.ainion oesthe emotiouf > > > > > > > > > > nctun > > > > > > > > > >encs nnctiontsy that ou belal,naelale ple par > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pa> in the b are > > > > > > > > > ead.Your> > torta lat esthe emotir is > > > > > > > > foY>urdca > > > > > > > > mmencs ts atanishadanishad's reveal that thade ade of he > > > > > > formGodhyad.Youre > > > > > > > > mporta lat er, w > > > > > > > > whacr is > > > > > > > > athemide e mind is the minahanahankarahankaal that tha > > > > > > > > e aderof ade cthechit > > > > > > > > as>> > >hitta (temoraar g), ahfethfe), ath adentigf, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > > > >f, > > > > > > > > > > > ory, > > > > > > > > > > ryory, > > > > > > > > > > r- of - o- of - of time),eetimetid). Wetid). Whilt tmat ry > > s > > > > > > > > > > at r > > > > > > > > > > liports > > > > > > > > > > lrtkno, krtkno, know idge is imphatathatathe matathe min > > the or > > > > > > > > > > >foeaora. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ha. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >, o not un o yound yd yound your qbouwherout " where > > istenee of > > > > > > > > > > tence ersta > > > > > > > > > > allderstanot undyour father. He isbaar, a so, a ,on, a ba > > son, > > > > a > > > > > > > > brofrienda > > > > > > > > > > > custom, a customer, aand, a fatherider - everything. The > > role > > > > le > > > > > > > > > > > roles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > roles, and people who seek him in different roles find him > > > > playing > > > > > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > > > > roles - your mother finds a loving husband because she > > sees a > > > > > > husband > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > him > > > > > > > > > > > and simultaneously you see a loving father in him. This > > is an > > > > > > example > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > divinity. Since you have read the BG you may be familiar > > with > > > > > > Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > affirming that He reveals Himself as what the devotee > > wants > > > > him > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Gurus have to be respected even before we worship > > > > divinity - > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > due to the bhiksha they gave us, that our eyes are op a > > bit. > > > > a > > > > > > bit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > > > > > prANadAsa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >n evepen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sep 4, Seat 11:32 at 11:32 AM, msbohra62 <msbohra62@ e > > owen > > > > Sep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On009 at 11 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > adAsa 009 adAsa ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > question is in my mind, which i > > > > > > > > > > > >2009 adAsedprANadAsa please reply me that what is the > > > > ultimalbu > > > > > > > > > > > > the " Gr > > > > > > > > > > > > the " Granth " to read and understand ? > > > > > > > > > > > > th > > > > > > > > > > real> > th > > > > > > > > > > rea knowlll the knowledge,after gettinou whhre eou heere > > you > > > > > > > > > > the kel the changes about yourselfthe se agldgthe se alldge > > of > > > > " > > > > > > > > > > > am-Tatva " > > > > > > > > > > > > where ?Than where ishan wherexist ?Parr exitva ia not > > atva > > > > is > > > > > > not a > > > > > > > > > > Physical > > > > > > > > > > > > substanhwar eTltva yoram-Tl > > > > > > > > > > > > h Diff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Different peoplu wiram-ordyim ? > > > > > > > > > > ga> > > > > > > > > > > > gsaccorgingl g accordingly,as like > > > > > > > > > > > >an howShakti " l seeehim ?hip " Devi " roop,for > > Budhi-chaturay > > > > they > > > > > > > > worship > > > > > > > > > > ehi>?hip eDevi,for Dhan they worship " Laximimata " .Than > > > " Ganes > > > > > > thefor > > > > > > > > > > Dhance of > > > > > > > > > > > > alp " Lese Lmata " > > > > > > > > > > Than whe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >n understand that all th worese i " Laxiaimata " .T > > > > > > > > > > > >n undeess than any > > > > > > > > > > > > Lord b allse they have gi > > > > > > > > > > > > > I celigion and > > > > > > > > > > >nowledge which leads us to > > > > > > > > > > i > > > > > > > > > > > > >th c ligion andt of our self being to " Param-Gyan " (Uer > > det > > > > a > > > > > > > > religigf . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eing to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40><a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- tn aniannt_irdiogyastrologgroups.com>, > > > > > > > > > > > > s s> > > > > > > > > > > > >e> > ns@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Members, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mocking or repudiating members who asked a sincere > > > > question > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > bad - > > > > > > > > > > > > Bohraji > > > > > > > > > > > > > did not ask an obscene question...he asked a > > > > philosophical > > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > important enough to be discussed in the uis > > > > > > > > > > > > ds - so why are we > > > > > > > > > > > > getting > > > > > > > > > > > > > angry which > > > > > > > > > > >ing " no no, man did not create God, you should believe > > > > > > > > > > > > this " ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many of us have sincerely utilized our intellects > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > > servate > > > > > > > > > > God, y > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagawan and not just our hearts? Each one of us in a > > > > different > > > > > > > > spiritual > > > > > > > > > > > > > level...but as long as we are all spiritually curious > > > > with > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > intellect, > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > are going in the right directiont as lonf us, by > > virtue > > > > of > > > > > > > > sadhana > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > blessings in previous life, have received the nectar > > of > > > > > > > > > > Bhakti....others > > > > > > > > > > > > > have not yet got it...they will (i hope). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are also some here who have gone so far as to> > > > > > > > havat > > > > > > > > maybe > > > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > > > seers > > > > > > > > > > > > > who gave us the scriptures also may havme hersolved > > these > > > > > > > > questions - > > > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > is patently wrong. In the several thousand years of > > > > > > philosophical > > > > > > > > > > > > > development, it would be naive to assume that they > > did > > > > not go > > > > > > > > deep > > > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > > > most > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophical and existential matters and solve it. > > This > > > > > > clearly > > > > > > > > > > shows a > > > > > > > > > > > > > lack of understanding and a lack of study of > > " scriptures " > > > > - > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > armchair > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosopher approach. However, the latter part of > > this > > > > > > person's > > > > > > > > > > statement > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > partially correct - the spiritual experience cannot > > be > > > > put > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > > > does not mean that all questions cannot be answered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, Bohraji, upon reading these scriptures > > (kEna > > > > U. > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > particular) > > > > > > > > > > > > > and meditating, you may come to the realization that > > > > there is > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > origin > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Para-tatva...however, some sages lovingly call > > > > themselves > > > > > > > > > > alizatio > > > > > > > > > > > > father > > > > > > > > > > ly when he > > > > > > > > > > > > appear> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in front of them (they could speak only because of His > > > > kindness > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > permission anyway), and it is the duty of the f name > > to > > > > name > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > child. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Krishna appeared to be born to 2 sets of parents - as > > did > > > > > > Vamana > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > Aditi > > > > > > > > > > > > > and Kaashyapa etc...in such instances, these exalted > > > > devotees > > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > the pride of calling the greatest of the great, the > > one > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > origin, > > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > > their child. Bhaskarji is right, the Bhagawatam is a > > > > > > fantastic > > > > > > > > gold > > > > > > > > > > mine > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > information, but d the gnto est oly after you the one > > he > > > > > > Bhagawad > > > > > > > > > > gIta. > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hari smaraNs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > prANadAsa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:12 AM, gopi_b927 <gopi_b927@ > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Bhaga > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Dear V). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes you are right.Cent percent agreed.We should be > > > > > > mindless, > > > > > > > > > > otherwise > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mi27 <gopiib927ill not leave us alone.My > >u> > > > > > > > > > > > > >d " when weVinita jie > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are with GOD''.MAHARSHI RAMANA also spoke > > > > > > > > ofmindonasa(destruction > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mind).... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopiGu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > " shankar_mamta " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <st rega_mamta@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Gopi ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " but 'ncient_ithe mind " is also an imagination > > which > > > > > > comes > > > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > > > > > mind > > > > > > > > > > > > >anka only " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is very true....so long as we have no > > EXPERIENCE > > > > of > > > > > > > > THAT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To approachnation which e to be mindless, > > perhaps! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rue.>..inita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > " gopi_b927 " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi_b927@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinita ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you 4the nice post though it is not > > > > addressed2me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > //Mind > > >haps nothing but identification of > > the > > > > self > > > > > > > > with i, > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ego. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once ego vanishes nothing should affect > > us....and > > > > we > > > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > > > free > > > > > > > > > > Mind of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >g buma...mukta.// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this is really >ood but ''beyond the mind " is > > also > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > imagination > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > comes through mind only know? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THATS THE PUZLE HERE...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > > <%40> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > " shankar_mamta " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shankar_mamta@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bohra ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To my " mind " , moksha is going beyond the > > > > " mind " ....no > > > > > > > > matter > > > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > an oxymoron that may be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God may be in the mind...but beyond the mind > > is > > > > where > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > >how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > >..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Needless to say beyond th God days where > > karma > > > > > > ceases. So > > > > > > > > > > long as > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the mind, the karmic circus continues... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mind is perhaps nothing but identification of > > the > > > > > > self > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > i, > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ego. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once ego vanishes nothing shoes... > > > > > > > > > > fect us....and we become free > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > karma...mukta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They say that that is what we always > > are...sans > > > > > > > > maya...sans > > > > > > > > > > > > ego.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our true roopa always is....chidanand... > > > > shivoham, > > > > > > > > shivoham! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But i totally agree with u that till we > > become > > > > THAT / > > > > > > > > TAT, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the mind...including God... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > B> Regards and best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vinita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regar > > > > > > > > > > > >nd best >shes, > > > > > > > > > > > n <%40> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > " msbohra62 " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > msbohra62@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Members, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One question for all,it is the biggest > > > > > > questioohra62y > > > > > > > > mind > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > years,is :- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu worship his different > > " Ishwar-Devi-Devta " > > > > and > > > > > > > > getting > > > > > > > > > > > > desire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > result,spiritually satisfaction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Muslims worship hiu worshh " they are also getting there > > > > desire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > result > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and satisfy with his Allah. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christian's worship his god and getting > > desire > > > > > > result. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What are the common factors in above all > > and > > > > what > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > differences > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the " ultimate-fact " ?Where is the Ishwar,Allah and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it not in our mind only ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The biggest creation or invention of Humen > > is > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Param-Satta " (Ishwar,Allah,God,etc;).Man > > created > > > > the > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > created > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many times we discussed others topics not > > > > related > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > Astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directly,please share your thoughts on > > > > > > >subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M.S.Bohra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Ints onent_indian_astrology@yaho> > > > > ps.com > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, > > > > > > > > > > > > Manoj Chn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chnndran_maan_manoj@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Gopi Ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >onde > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > funderful thoughts, simple and true !!! How > > can > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > recognize > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which we are not? Outside is a reflection of > > the > > > > > > inside. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Manoj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi_b927 <gopi_b92 To:.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > <%40> > > <%40> > > > > <%40> > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > <%40> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, September 3, 2009 6:47:33 > > AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [ancient_indian_astroloMoksha... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >ehta ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even if we s suca aoss s ph a n weomawe > > may > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > recogni..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > r. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gopi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
