Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 In a message dated 5/28/2009 12:18:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: geo> The same.****The imagined is not imagining itself into existence.geo> No. The dreaming program projects the dreamer and its periphery. The program projects the inner illusory fixed entity. You ask what is prior to the imaging...it is the image making program. There is a seemingly paradox but it is not really. This program is "very very old" - way of speaking. ****The analogy of a 'program' doesn't work for me. It's much more immediate than that. Perception, thought, feeling are happening now. The universe is forming as it's perceived. There is an intelligent awareness expressing right now in the form of thought and other 'mind objects', and also experiencing that expression and forming new perception in response. It's all very alive and dynamic and right here and now. This intelligence/Awareness/presence is right here, but it is prior to the imaginary person and common to all. We're not looking for a Big Self, we're just looking for that which is looking. No programs, no imaginary things imagining anything, just this presence forming and experiencing and responding to it's own expression right now. None of the above is the nondualistic Truth of the matter and almost every word can be picked apart and dismissed or sneered at, and that seems to be the goal of this forum, but the result is that nobody is saying anything so that the words can't be challenged. The beginningless endlessness of the empty fullness within the withoutness of the incomplete completeness of..... That's the real BS. The best we can do is try to talk to each other using real words and take a lil peek behind the words and see if there's anything there. We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 In a message dated 5/28/2009 12:23:55 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: ****What 'it' loves is experience, which is a movement, and so whatever isnecessary to initiate and maintain a movement is what will happen. Imaginingdualistic polarities into existence and moving toward one pole and away fromthe other is great fun. Inventing a question and then seeking the answer iscool too. Mental bifurcation is an endless source of movement, as we've seenhere today.The dualistic polarities are unreal and the questions meaningless.geo> There is no way to put it. Any symbols are dualistic. Quantum step.Movement stops.***You think too much.geo> No. I am not conceptualizing. The step from movement to non-movement is a quantum leap. You can not "step out" of time taking time. That would be absurd. ****When did things stop moving for you? The realization of the nature of time is like all realizations, and yes they happen in a timeless flash, but again, nothing stops. It's just seen for what it is. We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 In a message dated 5/28/2009 1:33:35 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: - souldreamoneTo: Nisargadatta Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:13 PMRe: Re: The Big HoperIn a message dated 5/28/2009 12:18:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes:geo> The same.****The imagined is not imagining itself into existence.geo> No. The dreaming program projects the dreamer and its periphery. Theprogram projects the inner illusory fixed entity. You ask what is prior tothe imaging...it is the image making program. There is a seemingly paradoxbut it is not really. This program is "very very old" - way of speaking.****The analogy of a 'program' doesn't work for me. It's much more immediate than that. Perception, thought, feeling are happening now. The universe is forming as it's perceived. There is an intelligent awareness expressing right now in the form of thought and other 'mind objects', and also experiencing that expression and forming new perception in response. It's all very alive and dynamic and right here and now.This intelligence/Awareness/presence is right here, but it is prior to the imaginary person and common to all. We're not looking for a Big Self, we're just looking for that which is looking. No programs, no imaginary things imagining anything, just this presence forming and experiencing and responding to it's own expression right now.None of the above is the nondualistic Truth of the matter and almost every word can be picked apart and dismissed or sneered at, and that seems to be the goal of this forum, but the result is that nobody is saying anything so that the words can't be challenged. The beginningless endlessness of the empty fullness within the withoutness of the incomplete completeness of..... That's the real BS. The best we can do is try to talk to each other using real words and take a lil peek behind the words and see if there's anything there.geo> Could you say a few word about the nature of that intelligence?Something else.It is not a crticism...but something to understand. There is something with "we're not looking for a Big Self, we're just looking for that which is looking.". Who could be there looking for the look-er that is prior to all? ****I don't know anything about the nature of that intelligence. Since it is the source of qualities, it is, itself, qualityless. That which is looking for the looker is the looker. That's part of what I've been trying to say with imaginary things doing the imagining. There's just one 'thing', and it's ultimately responsible for everything. Since there is no time, this same non-thing is doing all the doingness now. That intelligence/presence is writing, reading, perceiving, imagining, etc. There isn't anything else. However, between the source of the thought in 'your' head, and the thought itself, is a radical paradigm shift from the nonlinear to the linear. The source of thoughts is not, itself, thinking. The source of time/space is not, itself, operating in time, nor could it be anywhere but here. 'We', of course, are that source rather than the expression. Again, that's just plain language, not intended to keep me out of trouble. Hehe. We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 In a message dated 5/28/2009 1:46:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: > ****Imaginary things aren't in possession of any talents at all and so> volitional force cannot be assigned to them. There must be something that> is> not imaginary, something more fundamental that is the ultimate cause of> stuff such as imagining, which has to be 'prior to' the imaginary thingy.>> geo> It is it.> ***What is what? Hehe.>> geo> The same.>>> ****The imagined is not imagining itself into existence.you don't know that..b b.b.Yes. It is the funiest part of the dream...perhaps the most difficult to grasp.-geo- ******I DO know that. Thought is not creating itself or doing anything at all. We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 In a message dated 5/28/2009 1:49:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: The dualistic polarities are unreal and the questions meaningless.geo> There is no way to put it. Any symbols are dualistic. Quantum step.Movement stops.***You think too much.geo> No. I am not conceptualizing. The step from movement to non-movement isa quantum leap. You can not "step out" of time taking time. That would beabsurd.****When did things stop moving for you? The realization of the nature of time is like all realizations, and yes they happen in a timeless flash, but again, nothing stops. It's just seen for what it is.geo> first I wouldnt say is like other realizations. You know...one must be speciphic in this regard. Undrestanding time is quite fundamental."Stops" is a way of putting it....a whole set of movement actually stop. No center, no periphery...Our entire life was based on that movement. ****What was in that set? We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 In a message dated 5/28/2009 2:38:13 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: ****I don't know anything about the nature of that intelligence. Since it is the source of qualities, it is, itself, qualityless. That which is looking for the looker is the looker. That's part of what I've been trying to say with imaginary things doing the imagining. There's just one 'thing', and it's ultimately responsible for everything. Since there is no time, this same non-thing is doing all the doingness now. That intelligence/presence is writing, reading, perceiving, imagining, etc. There isn't anything else.However, between the source of the thought in 'your' head, and the thought itself, is a radical paradigm shift from the nonlinear to the linear. The source of thoughts is not, itself, thinking. The source of time/space is not, itself, operating in time, nor could it be anywhere but here. 'We', of course, are that source rather than the expression.Again, that's just plain language, not intended to keep me out of trouble. Hehe.geo> I think what you write is fact. Yes that intelligence is so far removed from humaninty that.....ther is nothing we cold say about it - nonetheless is here.What you describe, if taken deeply far enough is like being consciusness, is not it? I am all manifestation. I am the world. But the danger here is that one could say so without meditating it. Then is just like saying god is in me, or i am god... and keep on with the show as a separate entity. ****I'm probly picking on words again, but I wouldn't even say far removed, even in the sense of being unthinkable, which I 'think' is how you meant it. That intelligence is empty of mind objects simply because it is prior to all mind objects; the source of all thoughts and perceptions. This means that everything is made up in the expression and has no relevance to the source of the expression, so nothing we can think has anything to do with the source, not really because the source is inconceivable, but because it is prior to conception. Yeah, since Consciousness, Awareness, whatever, is all there is, I/you/we have to be that one 'thingy'. Bye, bye personhood, volition, free will. We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > You're both in the Mind. Whatever's on the surface here, thanks ya both ;-). I'm no longer fooled by objectification, by talk about objects, relationships between them, and memories about them. I now understand how objects are formed/formulated. This understanding most certainly didn't come from words that anyone said, although there were words that helped open me to the fact that this understanding/awareness is. But opening to understanding primarily involved a crisis through which orientation and the self-center dissolved as never having been there. Even " mind " is an object. The superficial aspect of mind involved in processing words back and forth can do what it does freely. Yup, that's not a problem. So, thanks to you, too. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > > > > > you say in many different ways, the word " bullshit " over and over. > > > yes i do. > > how astute of you. > > > > > > bullshit, up yours, there isn't any, there is no ... > > > you're offended? no, much of it is worthless to me, just taking up space - sometimes it's amusing. > > i get your talk. > > > > love you. > > > > one only lets go as much as one is able to let go. > > > > try to let go a little more dan. you don't believe there is any dan here. you don't believe any of this conversation is occurring. > > it can't be forced. > > > > nothing anyone says will help. > > > > > i've discovered this in your case. > > > > > saying there is nothing to let go, and no one to let anything go, > > > > does not release all the baggage ... > > > > the baggage is in the repeated attempts, > > > > the repeated concepts, > > > > the repetition compulsion. > > > > it's inclusive dan. > > everlastingness that is ephemeral.. > > beginningless endingless somethingless nothingness. > > LOL! > > i think you're reading your own repetitions... > > your own compulsions.... > > your own repeated concepts.. > > that change when challenged. > > you carry a steamer trunk. > > that's a lot of big baggage danny. > > > > > > > > > it has to be lived through. > > > > there's no other way out but through. > > > > yours in mutual compassion, > > > > d. > > > > mutual my ass. > > compassion is for fools that think there are " others " . > > " others " who have need of " their " good will. > > what a load of.. > > well i don't want to offend your sensibilities. > > dream on dan. > > .b b.b. yes, I understand your stance that all of this is unreal, bob, and there is no your or me. Love to you and All -- -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " roberibus111 " <Roberibus111@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is no. > > > > > > > > isn't anything. > > > > > > > > yes, I get that schtick. > > > > > > > > there isn't any " isn't " ... > > > > > > > > d. > > > > > > > > > that all depends on what your definition of isn't isn't. > > > > > > .b b.b. > > > > > > Funny. > > > > You made me laugh. > > > > Good work. > > > > > > Sayonara, > > > > D. > > > i didn't make you do anything. > > bad form! > > .b b.b. it's just a form of speech, bob. d. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:41:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > > geo> Hmmmm....I think this amazement is not necessarily a dream. It may > be > > an aspect of....IT. > > Just like other feelings alike. Even the sense of > > " searching " ....no... " wondering " ...may also be quite real. > > I think REAL man live with a ? above their heads. > > Your life is the ? > > Every experience throws you back to yourself. > > At the heart of the ? itself, is the answer. > > - D. > > > Sorry...no. The ? is beyond my life. That is what we are saying. The ? > may be part of the ground itself. > As if IT loved to ? See? > =geo= There aren't any parts, unless and until you imagine them. D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:41:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > > geo> Hmmmm....I think this amazement is not necessarily a dream. It may > be > > an aspect of....IT. > > Just like other feelings alike. Even the sense of > > " searching " ....no... " wondering " ...may also be quite real. > > I think REAL man live with a ? above their heads. > > Your life is the ? > > Every experience throws you back to yourself. > > At the heart of the ? itself, is the answer. > > - D. > > > Sorry...no. The ? is beyond my life. That is what we are saying. The ? > may be part of the ground itself. > As if IT loved to ? See? > =geo= > > > > ****What 'it' loves is experience, which is a movement, and so whatever is > necessary to initiate and maintain a movement is what will happen. > Imagining dualistic polarities into existence and moving toward one pole and away > from the other is great fun. Inventing a question and then seeking the > answer is cool too. Mental bifurcation is an endless source of movement, as > we've seen here today. > > The dualistic polarities are unreal and the questions meaningless. The polarities are only as real as you make them. You are only as real as they make you. Statements of negation, saying nothing exists or everything is meaningless are also on one side of a polarity. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 - souldreamone Nisargadatta Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:46 PM Re: Re: The Big Hoper In a message dated 5/28/2009 3:34:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:18:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: In a message dated 5/27/2009 5:16:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: > ****Yes, when there is no longer any interest in the one who needs to be > happy. This doesn't come about by repeating the mantra 'I don't exist'. It > happens when there is nobody who needs to declare one way or the other. > It's > a total lack of interest in this imaginary person regardless of what it > imagines into it's imaginary experience. The imaginary person is not doing the imagining. One could say " I Am " is. geo> The imaginary is doing the imagining. the dreamer is the dream ****Imaginary things aren't in possession of any talents at all and so volitional force cannot be assigned to them. There must be something that is not imaginary, something more fundamental that is the ultimate cause of stuff such as imagining, which has to be 'prior to' the imaginary thingy. geo> It is it. ***What is what? Hehe. geo> The same. ****The imagined is not imagining itself into existence. geo> No. The dreaming program projects the dreamer and its periphery. The program projects the inner illusory fixed entity. You ask what is prior to the imaging...it is the image making program. There is a seemingly paradox but it is not really. This program is " very very old " - way of speaking. We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 28/5/2009 16:14:26 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > souldreamone > Nisargadatta > Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:11 AM > Re: Re: The Big Hoper > In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:18:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > In a message dated 5/27/2009 5:16:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > ****Yes, when there is no longer any interest in the one who needs to be > > happy. This doesn't come about by repeating the mantra 'I don't exist'. It > > happens when there is nobody who needs to declare one way or the other. > > It's > > a total lack of interest in this imaginary person regardless of what it > > imagines into it's imaginary experience. > > The imaginary person is not doing the imagining. One could say " I Am " is. > > geo> The imaginary is doing the imagining. the dreamer is the dream > > ****Imaginary things aren't in possession of any talents at all and so > volitional force cannot be assigned to them. There must be something that is > not imaginary, something more fundamental that is the ultimate cause of > stuff such as imagining, which has to be 'prior to' the imaginary thingy. > > geo> It is it. > ***What is what? Hehe. > > geo> The same. Lots of dream characters here on this list, offering speculations about who they are and what the dream is. The dream doesn't know the actual. The actual doesn't need a dream character to know it. Never has, never will. Claims made by dream characters to be awake, are just another aspect of the dream, just like characters making claims to be screwed up and ignorant. Statements made about what is real in a dream, are no more or less dream than anything else being dreamed. Whenever a dream character asks, " who am I, what is this, where is it heading, what is real, " laughter echoes from nowhere. Whenever any answer is given, the laughter echoes. If you hear it, you aren't asking or answering. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 - souldreamone Nisargadatta Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:54 PM Re: Re: The Big Hoper In a message dated 5/28/2009 3:41:00 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: - souldreamone Nisargadatta Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:31 AM Re: Re: The Big Hoper In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:41:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: > geo> Hmmmm....I think this amazement is not necessarily a dream. It may be > an aspect of....IT. > Just like other feelings alike. Even the sense of > " searching " ....no... " wondering " ...may also be quite real. > I think REAL man live with a ? above their heads. Your life is the ? Every experience throws you back to yourself. At the heart of the ? itself, is the answer. - D. Sorry...no. The ? is beyond my life. That is what we are saying. The ? may be part of the ground itself. As if IT loved to ? See? =geo= ****What 'it' loves is experience, which is a movement, and so whatever is necessary to initiate and maintain a movement is what will happen. Imagining dualistic polarities into existence and moving toward one pole and away from the other is great fun. Inventing a question and then seeking the answer is cool too. Mental bifurcation is an endless source of movement, as we've seen here today. The dualistic polarities are unreal and the questions meaningless. geo> There is no way to put it. Any symbols are dualistic. Quantum step. Movement stops. ***You think too much. geo> No. I am not conceptualizing. The step from movement to non-movement is a quantum leap. You can not " step out " of time taking time. That would be absurd. We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 28/5/2009 16:14:26 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:59 PM Re: The Big Hoper Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > You're both in the Mind. Whatever's on the surface here, thanks ya both > ;-). I'm no longer fooled by objectification, by talk about objects, relationships between them, and memories about them. I now understand how objects are formed/formulated. This understanding most certainly didn't come from words that anyone said, although there were words that helped open me to the fact that this understanding/awareness is. But opening to understanding primarily involved a crisis through which orientation and the self-center dissolved as never having been there. Even " mind " is an object. The superficial aspect of mind involved in processing words back and forth can do what it does freely. Yup, that's not a problem. So, thanks to you, too. -- D. geo> Would you mind talking about the nature of that crisis? But of course you are aware of the nature of these lists...so...if you dont feel like its ok. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 28/5/2009 16:14:26 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:09 PM Re: The Big Hoper Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:41:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > > geo> Hmmmm....I think this amazement is not necessarily a dream. It may > be > > an aspect of....IT. > > Just like other feelings alike. Even the sense of > > " searching " ....no... " wondering " ...may also be quite real. > > I think REAL man live with a ? above their heads. > > Your life is the ? > > Every experience throws you back to yourself. > > At the heart of the ? itself, is the answer. > > - D. > > > Sorry...no. The ? is beyond my life. That is what we are saying. The ? > may be part of the ground itself. > As if IT loved to ? See? > =geo= > > > > ****What 'it' loves is experience, which is a movement, and so whatever is > necessary to initiate and maintain a movement is what will happen. > Imagining dualistic polarities into existence and moving toward one pole > and away > from the other is great fun. Inventing a question and then seeking the > answer is cool too. Mental bifurcation is an endless source of movement, > as > we've seen here today. > > The dualistic polarities are unreal and the questions meaningless. The polarities are only as real as you make them. You are only as real as they make you. Statements of negation, saying nothing exists or everything is meaningless are also on one side of a polarity. -- D. geo> Yes. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 28/5/2009 16:19:32 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:23 PM Re: The Big Hoper Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > souldreamone > Nisargadatta > Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:11 AM > Re: Re: The Big Hoper > In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:18:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > In a message dated 5/27/2009 5:16:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > ****Yes, when there is no longer any interest in the one who needs to be > > happy. This doesn't come about by repeating the mantra 'I don't exist'. > > It > > happens when there is nobody who needs to declare one way or the other. > > It's > > a total lack of interest in this imaginary person regardless of what it > > imagines into it's imaginary experience. > > The imaginary person is not doing the imagining. One could say " I Am " is. > > geo> The imaginary is doing the imagining. the dreamer is the dream > > ****Imaginary things aren't in possession of any talents at all and so > volitional force cannot be assigned to them. There must be something that > is > not imaginary, something more fundamental that is the ultimate cause of > stuff such as imagining, which has to be 'prior to' the imaginary thingy. > > geo> It is it. > ***What is what? Hehe. > > geo> The same. Lots of dream characters here on this list, offering speculations about who they are and what the dream is. The dream doesn't know the actual. geo> This statement comes from the dream? The actual doesn't need a dream character to know it. Never has, never will. Claims made by dream characters to be awake, are just another aspect of the dream, just like characters making claims to be screwed up and ignorant. geo> Yes..claims of being awake is ignorance. Statements made about what is real in a dream, are no more or less dream than anything else being dreamed. geo> Is this coming from a dream Whenever a dream character asks, " who am I, what is this, where is it heading, what is real, " laughter echoes from nowhere. Whenever any answer is given, the laughter echoes. If you hear it, you aren't asking or answering. geo> And why are you saying all this? -- D. avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 090526-0, 26/05/2009 Tested on: 28/5/2009 16:29:40 avast! - copyright © 1988-2009 ALWIL Software. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > geo> No. I am not conceptualizing. The step from movement to non-movement is > a quantum leap. You can not " step out " of time taking time. That would be > absurd. Well, that's just it. Anything we say takes time to be read, processed, comprehended. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > geo> Would you mind talking about the nature of that crisis? But of course > you are aware of the nature of these lists...so...if you dont feel like its > ok. O.K. I was trying to find satisfaction and resolution through a lot of different experiences, I was questioning everything, also trying spiritual practice such as meditation, reading texts. Nothing worked. I realized that a lot of what I was doing was trying to quell the anxiety I had about each moment of life moving into unknown territory. I also was trying to escape the anxiety, which is what I was experiencing now. So, I stopped. I was the moment, the moment was filled with anxiety, and I was this. I gave up. I came to a standstill. My self and world dissolved, because these were being held together by my center. My center was not. Although everything dissolved, everything reintegrated. I put one foot in front of the other. Or, you could say, feet came together and one foot was moving in front of the other. Day by day my life has unfolded. There is nothing special about this. It is a life unfolding, like any life. My character hasn't changed, and I'm not anything special, just a person living through a life. The beauty of it is nothing special, just life being lived. It is simple, just what is. -- D. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 > geo> No. I am not conceptualizing. The step from movement to non-movement > is > a quantum leap. You can not " step out " of time taking time. That would be > absurd. Well, that's just it. Anything we say takes time to be read, processed, comprehended. -- D. This raises an issue I have tried to understand for some time. When one is formulating words to express something that is non-temporal. It seems that there is a kind of waving movement...in time to pick words expressions..think about the best way to put it..then insight...out of time...seeing...back to time again. It is a very subtle kind of process. -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > dan330033 > Nisargadatta > Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:23 PM > Re: The Big Hoper > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > - > > souldreamone@ > > Nisargadatta > > Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:11 AM > > Re: Re: The Big Hoper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:18:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > > inandor@ writes: > > In a message dated 5/27/2009 5:16:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > > inandor@ writes: > > > ****Yes, when there is no longer any interest in the one who needs to be > > > happy. This doesn't come about by repeating the mantra 'I don't exist'. > > > It > > > happens when there is nobody who needs to declare one way or the other. > > > It's > > > a total lack of interest in this imaginary person regardless of what it > > > imagines into it's imaginary experience. > > > > The imaginary person is not doing the imagining. One could say " I Am " is. > > > > geo> The imaginary is doing the imagining. the dreamer is the dream > > > > ****Imaginary things aren't in possession of any talents at all and so > > volitional force cannot be assigned to them. There must be something that > > is > > not imaginary, something more fundamental that is the ultimate cause of > > stuff such as imagining, which has to be 'prior to' the imaginary thingy. > > > > geo> It is it. > > ***What is what? Hehe. > > > > geo> The same. > > Lots of dream characters here on this list, offering speculations about who > they are and what the dream is. > > The dream doesn't know the actual. > > geo> This statement comes from the dream? D: Yes. The reader of the statement has to be dreamed in order to read what was said. You are dreamed along with the statement, so you read it, and the reading of it dreams you. > The actual doesn't need a dream character to know it. > Never has, never will. > > Claims made by dream characters to be awake, are just another aspect of the > dream, just like characters making claims to be screwed up and ignorant. > > geo> Yes..claims of being awake is ignorance. > > Statements made about what is real in a dream, are no more or less dream > than anything else being dreamed. > > geo> Is this coming from a dream D: Same answer as above. > Whenever a dream character asks, " who am I, what is this, where is it > heading, what is real, " laughter echoes from nowhere. > > Whenever any answer is given, the laughter echoes. > > If you hear it, you aren't asking or answering. > > geo> And why are you saying all this? D: I like writing on this list. At least for now. I enjoy the give and take, the dialogues about being awake. And yes, I am being dreamed this way. And indeed, there is no 'why' to the dream. It just is as it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 - dan330033 Nisargadatta Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:10 PM Re: The Big Hoper Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > geo> Would you mind talking about the nature of that crisis? But of course > you are aware of the nature of these lists...so...if you dont feel like > its > ok. O.K. I was trying to find satisfaction and resolution through a lot of different experiences, I was questioning everything, also trying spiritual practice such as meditation, reading texts. Nothing worked. I realized that a lot of what I was doing was trying to quell the anxiety I had about each moment of life moving into unknown territory. I also was trying to escape the anxiety, which is what I was experiencing now. So, I stopped. I was the moment, the moment was filled with anxiety, and I was this. I gave up. I came to a standstill. My self and world dissolved, because these were being held together by my center. My center was not. Although everything dissolved, everything reintegrated. I put one foot in front of the other. Or, you could say, feet came together and one foot was moving in front of the other. Day by day my life has unfolded. There is nothing special about this. It is a life unfolding, like any life. My character hasn't changed, and I'm not anything special, just a person living through a life. The beauty of it is nothing special, just life being lived. It is simple, just what is. -- D. Thanks. I think with me is different. No big events...more like like small shocks that I receive one after the other whith each insight into this lack of entity. Each time is different...each time a shock. Probably the explanation to these differences has to do with the kind of approach that life provides to each one of us. No two organisms are equal.Both ways pose a particular difficulty, trap. Big shocks may unbalance the body/mind, or may be cristized as some special benchmark for future reference in memory - and of course that would not work. Small shocks...well....they just may not be enough....LOL -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 - souldreamone Nisargadatta Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:13 PM Re: Re: The Big Hoper In a message dated 5/28/2009 12:18:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, inandor writes: geo> The same. ****The imagined is not imagining itself into existence. geo> No. The dreaming program projects the dreamer and its periphery. The program projects the inner illusory fixed entity. You ask what is prior to the imaging...it is the image making program. There is a seemingly paradox but it is not really. This program is " very very old " - way of speaking. ****The analogy of a 'program' doesn't work for me. It's much more immediate than that. Perception, thought, feeling are happening now. The universe is forming as it's perceived. There is an intelligent awareness expressing right now in the form of thought and other 'mind objects', and also experiencing that expression and forming new perception in response. It's all very alive and dynamic and right here and now. This intelligence/Awareness/presence is right here, but it is prior to the imaginary person and common to all. We're not looking for a Big Self, we're just looking for that which is looking. No programs, no imaginary things imagining anything, just this presence forming and experiencing and responding to it's own expression right now. None of the above is the nondualistic Truth of the matter and almost every word can be picked apart and dismissed or sneered at, and that seems to be the goal of this forum, but the result is that nobody is saying anything so that the words can't be challenged. The beginningless endlessness of the empty fullness within the withoutness of the incomplete completeness of..... That's the real BS. The best we can do is try to talk to each other using real words and take a lil peek behind the words and see if there's anything there. geo> Could you say a few word about the nature of that intelligence? Something else.It is not a crticism...but something to understand. There is something with " we're not looking for a Big Self, we're just looking for that which is looking. " . Who could be there looking for the look-er that is prior to all? We found the real 'Hotel California' and the 'Seinfeld' diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 5/28/2009 3:34:56 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:18:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > In a message dated 5/27/2009 5:16:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > ****Yes, when there is no longer any interest in the one who needs to be > > happy. This doesn't come about by repeating the mantra 'I don't exist'. > It > > happens when there is nobody who needs to declare one way or the other. > > It's > > a total lack of interest in this imaginary person regardless of what it > > imagines into it's imaginary experience. > > The imaginary person is not doing the imagining. One could say " I Am " is. > > geo> The imaginary is doing the imagining. the dreamer is the dream > > ****Imaginary things aren't in possession of any talents at all and so > volitional force cannot be assigned to them. There must be something that > is > not imaginary, something more fundamental that is the ultimate cause of > stuff such as imagining, which has to be 'prior to' the imaginary thingy. > > geo> It is it. > ***What is what? Hehe. > > geo> The same. > > > ****The imagined is not imagining itself into existence. you don't know that. ..b b.b. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 28, 2009 Nisargadatta , souldreamone wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 5/28/2009 3:41:00 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > > - > souldreamone > Nisargadatta > Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:31 AM > Re: Re: The Big Hoper > In a message dated 5/27/2009 6:41:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > inandor writes: > > geo> Hmmmm....I think this amazement is not necessarily a dream. It may > be > > an aspect of....IT. > > Just like other feelings alike. Even the sense of > > " searching " ....no... " wondering " ...may also be quite real. > > I think REAL man live with a ? above their heads. > > Your life is the ? > > Every experience throws you back to yourself. > > At the heart of the ? itself, is the answer. > > - D. > > > Sorry...no. The ? is beyond my life. That is what we are saying. The ? > may be part of the ground itself. > As if IT loved to ? See? > =geo= > > ****What 'it' loves is experience, which is a movement, and so whatever is > necessary to initiate and maintain a movement is what will happen. > Imagining > dualistic polarities into existence and moving toward one pole and away > from > the other is great fun. Inventing a question and then seeking the answer > is > cool too. Mental bifurcation is an endless source of movement, as we've > seen > here today. > > The dualistic polarities are unreal and the questions meaningless. > > geo> There is no way to put it. Any symbols are dualistic. Quantum step. > Movement stops. > > > > ***You think too much. you think he thinks too much. ..b b.b Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
