Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 OK So You have these dream thorns stuck in your dream body. So......you take some dream thorns and remove them. And then you toss out the dream thorn that you used to take the other dream thorns out with. And now you have a thornless dream. At least you got that goin for ya. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Monday, May 25, 2009 4:37 PM Thornless OK So You have these dream thorns stuck in your dream body. So......you take some dream thorns and remove them. And then you toss out the dream thorn that you used to take the other dream thorns out with. And now you have a thornless dream. At least you got that goin for ya. toombaru There is last thorn of a totaly different material. It is the ground of the potentiality of all possibilities. If you take light as a physical metaphor that is absolute darkness.But absolute darkness still IS. -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Monday, May 25, 2009 4:37 PM > Thornless > OK > > So > > You have these dream thorns stuck in your dream body. > > So......you take some dream thorns and remove them. > > And then you toss out the dream thorn that you used to take the other dream > thorns out with. > > And now you have a thornless dream. > > At least you got that goin for ya. > > toombaru > > There is last thorn of a totaly different material. It is the ground of the > potentiality of all possibilities. If you take light as a physical metaphor > that is absolute darkness.But absolute darkness still IS. > -geo- > No. Thorns exist only in the dream. Anything that you can come up with......any combination of thoughts.......no matter how wonderful.......will not penetrate through that which exists only as thought. da be a da be a that's all folks. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033 wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > OK > > > > So > > > > You have these dream thorns stuck in your dream body. > > > > So......you take some dream thorns and remove them. > > > > And then you toss out the dream thorn that you used to take the other dream thorns out with. > > > > And now you have a thornless dream. > > > > At least you got that goin for ya. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > Silly. > > Attaching to a dream, is the thorn that dissolves. > > When there is neither dream nor something else other than dream, all thorns are gone. > > -- Dan > ....and so are you........ .....even that really really big you that you imagine exists.....out there.......in Evetythingsville. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > OK > > > > > > So > > > > > > You have these dream thorns stuck in your dream body. > > > > > > So......you take some dream thorns and remove them. > > > > > > And then you toss out the dream thorn that you used to take the other dream thorns out with. > > > > > > And now you have a thornless dream. > > > > > > At least you got that goin for ya. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Silly. > > > > Attaching to a dream, is the thorn that dissolves. > > > > When there is neither dream nor something else other than dream, all thorns are gone. > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > ...and so are you........ Yes, and so am I. I have nothing to fear anymore, nothing to worry about. > ....even that really really big you that you imagine exists.....out > there.......in Evetythingsville. Yes, even that. I can still deal with " everything " , without having to hold it in mind all the time. Without having to imagine that it has a separate existence apart from me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > OK > > > > > > So > > > > > > You have these dream thorns stuck in your dream body. > > > > > > So......you take some dream thorns and remove them. > > > > > > And then you toss out the dream thorn that you used to take the other dream thorns out with. > > > > > > And now you have a thornless dream. > > > > > > At least you got that goin for ya. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > Silly. > > > > Attaching to a dream, is the thorn that dissolves. > > > > When there is neither dream nor something else other than dream, all thorns are gone. > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > ...and so are you........ Yes, and so am I. I have nothing to fear anymore, nothing to worry about. > ....even that really really big you that you imagine exists.....out > there.......in Evetythingsville. Yes, even that. I can still deal with " everything " , without having to hold it in mind all the time. Without having to imagine that it has a separate existence apart from me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033@> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK > > > > > > > > So > > > > > > > > You have these dream thorns stuck in your dream body. > > > > > > > > So......you take some dream thorns and remove them. > > > > > > > > And then you toss out the dream thorn that you used to take the other dream thorns out with. > > > > > > > > And now you have a thornless dream. > > > > > > > > At least you got that goin for ya. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Silly. > > > > > > Attaching to a dream, is the thorn that dissolves. > > > > > > When there is neither dream nor something else other than dream, all thorns are gone. > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > > > > > > ...and so are you........ > > Yes, and so am I. > > I have nothing to fear anymore, nothing to worry about. > > > ....even that really really big you that you imagine exists.....out > there.......in Evetythingsville. > > Yes, even that. I can still deal with " everything " , without having to hold it in mind all the time. Without having to imagine that it has a separate existence apart from me. > The me clings to the tiniest thread. It can survive on almost nothing. On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. In freezing nights it bundles up and waits It can lay dormant for very long periods. It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 The me clings to the tiniest thread.It can survive on almost nothing.On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand.In freezing nights it bundles up and waitsIt can lay dormant for very long periods.It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself.toombaruAre you talking of first hand "experience"? -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 The me clings to the tiniest thread.It can survive on almost nothing.On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand.In freezing nights it bundles up and waitsIt can lay dormant for very long periods.It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself.toombaruAre you talking of first hand "experience"? -geo- Here...there is not the certainty that it has been definitively severed. I dont even know if that is possible or not. I can say that it sticks its head back to life quite often -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > > -geo- > > > > > > There was a catharsis in which the sense of self evaporated. > > It has not returned. > > > > > > toombaru I can see clearly how it all has to do with words. In particular, the words " me " and " you " . Quite often, I address myself as " you " ... like, " you're going to the store today, aren't you " ? When I do that, I objectify myself... but I'm not an object. When I think of my body, I'm thinking of an object. I can't be a thought! I can't be an object, either. When I realize I'm not an object, I also realize there are no objects or " things " . The " me " is a " thing " ... a body and a history, something I can look at or examine. Therefore, I am not that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > toombaru > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > -geo- > There was a catharsis in which the sense of self evaporated. It has not returned. toombaru Are able to say that you are always without it. All the time through the day and night? I can not. Will you accept me as temporary disciple? -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > toombaru > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > -geo- > There was a catharsis in which the sense of self evaporated. It has not returned. toombaru Are able to say that you are always without it. All the time through the day and night? I can not. Will you accept me as temporary disciple? -geo- This episode you had....it came out of the blue, or you where sort of meditating, or perhaps having some insight, or investigating deeply? Do you mind talking about it? -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > toombaru > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > -geo- > > Here...there is not the certainty that it has been definitively severed. I dont even know if that is possible or not. > I can say that it sticks its head back to life quite often > -geo- > LOL It doesn't disappear per se. It's more like where is used to be.....is a most pleasant emptiness. Everything remains pretty much the same as before......but now the in coming data doesn't bounce off an entity on the inside. There is no human shaped phantom standing at the door. Impressions just bounces around in a hall of mirrors until their energy is depleted. They leave no residue behind...(there doesn't seem to be a place where they can stick).........and all perceptual data coming in is untainted by past associations. Everything sees to be freshly emerging from a most mysterious ground of being.....and that seems to be who I am. Hey......there's a baby deer. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > > > > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > > > > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > > > > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > > > > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > > > > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > > > > > toombaru > > > > > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > > > -geo- > > > > > > > > > > > There was a catharsis in which the sense of self evaporated. > > > > It has not returned. > > > > > > > > > > > > toombaru > > I can see clearly how it all has to do with words. In particular, the words " me " and " you " . > > Quite often, I address myself as " you " ... like, " you're going to the store today, aren't you " ? When I do that, I objectify myself... but I'm not an object. > > When I think of my body, I'm thinking of an object. I can't be a thought! I can't be an object, either. > > When I realize I'm not an object, I also realize there are no objects or " things " . The " me " is a " thing " ... a body and a history, something I can look at or examine. > > Therefore, I am not that. > Hey......That could be the name of your book. :-) toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > It doesn't disappear per se. > > It's more like where is used to be.....is a most pleasant emptiness. > > Everything remains pretty much the same as before......but now the > in coming data doesn't bounce off an entity on the inside. I find that the entity only comes in when I bounce myself off " you " . And yet... I also find that " you " are not the only object. " Me " is an object too, because I can refer to an " it " (body/brain) with a history. Me and you are both objects. We are both outside of reality! What's real is " here " , with me. I use the word " me " , but I don't mean me in the sense of me as a body with a history. I mean " me " as awareness. The word doesn't matter, as " awareness " is only an indicator. There is no word " awareness " in awareness. I am empty. Empty of both " you " and " me " . I am what is noticing me, wordlessly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > It doesn't disappear per se. > > It's more like where is used to be.....is a most pleasant emptiness. > > Everything remains pretty much the same as before......but now the > in coming data doesn't bounce off an entity on the inside. I find that the entity only comes in when I bounce myself off " you " . And yet... I also find that " you " are not the only object. " Me " is an object too, because I can refer to an " it " (body/brain) with a history. Me and you are both objects. We are both outside of reality! What's real is " here " , with me. I use the word " me " , but I don't mean me in the sense of me as a body with a history. I mean " me " as awareness. The word doesn't matter, as " awareness " is only an indicator. There is no word " awareness " in awareness. I am empty. Empty of both " you " and " me " . I am what is noticing me, wordlessly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > > -geo- > > > > There was a catharsis in which the sense of self evaporated. > > It has not returned. > > toombaru > > Are able to say that you are always without it. All the time through the day > and night? > I can not. I can remember how solid it felt. I can remember how frightened it was and how ofter it got its feeling hurt. I remember its loneliness......and its rage. I remember its struggles to get what it imagined to be its own enlightenment. I remember it thinking that it was at least cutting the distance in half. And I remember when all of that stopped. > Will you accept me as temporary disciple? > -geo- > Aren't all disciples temporary? (It is you that tease these words form me.......they emerge....weave a tapestry......I read them.....and they fill me up.......and I thank you for that.) love toombaru toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > It doesn't disappear per se. > > > > It's more like where is used to be.....is a most pleasant emptiness. > > > > Everything remains pretty much the same as before......but now the > in coming data doesn't bounce off an entity on the inside. > > I find that the entity only comes in when I bounce myself off " you " . > > And yet... I also find that " you " are not the only object. " Me " is an object too, because I can refer to an " it " (body/brain) with a history. > > Me and you are both objects. We are both outside of reality! > > What's real is " here " , with me. I use the word " me " , but I don't mean me in the sense of me as a body with a history. > > I mean " me " as awareness. The word doesn't matter, as " awareness " is only an indicator. There is no word " awareness " in awareness. > > I am empty. Empty of both " you " and " me " . I am what is noticing me, wordlessly. > I would imagine that it is the same experience......trying to be expressed through different experiencers. :-) toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > > > Will you accept me as temporary disciple? > > -geo- > > Whatever " you " was being referred to, the answer is yes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 - toombaru2006 Nisargadatta Monday, May 25, 2009 5:54 PM Re: Thornless Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > toombaru > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > -geo- > > Here...there is not the certainty that it has been definitively severed. I > dont even know if that is possible or not. > I can say that it sticks its head back to life quite often > -geo- > LOL It doesn't disappear per se. It's more like where is used to be.....is a most pleasant emptiness. Everything remains pretty much the same as before......but now the in coming data doesn't bounce off an entity on the inside. There is no human shaped phantom standing at the door. Impressions just bounces around in a hall of mirrors until their energy is depleted. They leave no residue behind...(there doesn't seem to be a place where they can stick).........and all perceptual data coming in is untainted by past associations. Everything sees to be freshly emerging from a most mysterious ground of being.....and that seems to be who I am. Hey......there's a baby deer. toombaru And that mysterious ground of being you are referring to was born with your organism? -geo- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 25, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > And that mysterious ground of being you are referring to was born > with your > organism? > -geo- I can only speak for myself. This 'mysterious' ground of being was born now. Everything else is gone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 26, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > > -geo- > > > > There was a catharsis in which the sense of self evaporated. > > It has not returned. > > toombaru > > Are able to say that you are always without it. All the time through the day > and night? > I can not. > Will you accept me as temporary disciple? > -geo- > > This episode you had....it came out of the blue, or you where sort of > meditating, or perhaps having some insight, or investigating deeply? > Do you mind talking about it? > -geo- > I have talked about several times on list so will give an abbreviated version: I was at a Las Vegas trade show and accidentally took one of my wife's medications. For some time, I had known intellectually that things in themselves had no existential reality. I knew that there was no such " thing " as a mountain, a river or the state of Texas. I had been thinking about that when I went to bed but as the medication took effect, my mind became somewhat garbled and the thought entered that " if things had no reality.....what does that say about the holder of things...namely me " . I was gripped by the most intense panic that I had ever experienced. (I had lived for years with acute panic attacks) The mind absolutely balked and refused to go any further. After a protracted life and death struggle.......I thought: " You little chicken shit.......all these years you have sought this confrontation........what if it never returns? " And I entered the Question. I cannot describe what happened......but when it had done its thing....I wasn't there.......and I haven't returned. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 26, 2009 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain wrote: > > I cannot describe what happened......but when it had done its > thing....I wasn't there.......and I haven't returned. All that needs to be, is for one to (not) be here now. What happened in the past, and what may happen in the future, are of no relevance. From here, awakening means that whether one awakened, or whether one *will* awaken is irrelevant. Continuity is an illusion of memory. One cannot have a past existence, nor a future existence. I am now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 26, 2009 Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor wrote: > > > - > toombaru2006 > Nisargadatta > Monday, May 25, 2009 5:54 PM > Re: Thornless > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " geo " <inandor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The me clings to the tiniest thread. > > > > It can survive on almost nothing. > > > > On hot days.....it burrows deep into the sand. > > > > In freezing nights it bundles up and waits > > > > It can lay dormant for very long periods. > > > > It has to be severed.......but it cannot sever itself. > > > > toombaru > > > > Are you talking of first hand " experience " ? > > -geo- > > > > Here...there is not the certainty that it has been definitively severed. I > > dont even know if that is possible or not. > > I can say that it sticks its head back to life quite often > > -geo- > > > > LOL > > It doesn't disappear per se. > > It's more like where is used to be.....is a most pleasant emptiness. > > Everything remains pretty much the same as before......but now the in coming > data doesn't bounce off an entity on the inside. > > There is no human shaped phantom standing at the door. > > Impressions just bounces around in a hall of mirrors until their energy is > depleted. > > They leave no residue behind...(there doesn't seem to be a place where they > can stick).........and all perceptual data coming in is untainted by past > associations. > > Everything sees to be freshly emerging from a most mysterious ground of > being.....and that seems to be who I am. > > Hey......there's a baby deer. > > toombaru > > And that mysterious ground of being you are referring to was born with your > organism? > -geo- > It is in the organism. The organism is in it. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 26, 2009 Nisargadatta , " Tim G. " <fewtch wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2006 " <lastrain@> wrote: > > > > I cannot describe what happened......but when it had done its > > thing....I wasn't there.......and I haven't returned. > > All that needs to be, is for one to (not) be here now. > > What happened in the past, and what may happen in the future, are of no relevance. > > From here, awakening means that whether one awakened, or whether one *will* awaken is irrelevant. > > Continuity is an illusion of memory. One cannot have a past existence, nor a future existence. > > I am now. > ....even the now slips over the edge...... toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
