Thoughtless state

March 22, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> But for me every kind of choice is a form of conflict. There is simply

> no peace in the choice-making process, regardless if there is a 'me'

> making the choice or the choice just happens anyway. I feel there must

> be a better way to live life than by making choices. Every kind of

> choice is stupid IMO. It's like don't knowing what to do. If you know

> what to do, is choice really needed?

>

these are your life circumstances. you have landed into them due to a

chain of decisions, some of which you made and know better now.

so if your life is full of deadlocks, it will be like that for a while

till these situations work themselves out. even if your inner self

blossoms, the outer life's causes and effects will work at their own

pace. this is called " prarabdha " (karma now maturing and is irreversible).

in the meantime you can still access the peace, but there will be a

strong possibility of relapse.

> And a kind of common sense that brings peace? Well, I am the result of

> billions of years of evolution and my so called common sense is

> worthless when it comes to making a peaceful living.

>

maybe you should look to changing livelihood. but if you are

surrounded by wolves, don't expect life as a sheep will be easy .

probably you will have to pretend to be a wolf in daily life.

it is a fallacy that life was supposed to be easy. that is the whole

point - how do you radiate love even when faced by the wolves. in some

cases you may have to fight like a wolf. but you are still full of

love internally.

March 22, 2005

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

>

> >

> > But for me every kind of choice is a form of conflict. There is simply

> > no peace in the choice-making process, regardless if there is a 'me'

> > making the choice or the choice just happens anyway. I feel there must

> > be a better way to live life than by making choices. Every kind of

> > choice is stupid IMO. It's like don't knowing what to do. If you know

> > what to do, is choice really needed?

> >

>

> these are your life circumstances. you have landed into them due to a

> chain of decisions, some of which you made and know better now.

>

> so if your life is full of deadlocks, it will be like that for a while

> till these situations work themselves out. even if your inner self

> blossoms, the outer life's causes and effects will work at their own

> pace. this is called " prarabdha " (karma now maturing and is

irreversible).

>

> in the meantime you can still access the peace, but there will be a

> strong possibility of relapse.

>

> > And a kind of common sense that brings peace? Well, I am the result of

> > billions of years of evolution and my so called common sense is

> > worthless when it comes to making a peaceful living.

> >

>

> maybe you should look to changing livelihood. but if you are

> surrounded by wolves, don't expect life as a sheep will be easy .

> probably you will have to pretend to be a wolf in daily life.

>

> it is a fallacy that life was supposed to be easy. that is the whole

> point - how do you radiate love even when faced by the wolves. in some

> cases you may have to fight like a wolf. but you are still full of

> love internally.

Maybe the fallacy is that life should be a struggle?

March 22, 2005

Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote:

>

> --- hemantbhai100 <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess

> > <lbb10@c...> wrote:

> > >

> >

> > >

> > > Dear hemantbhai100,

> > >

> > > A thoughtless state is not a trance.

> > >

> >

> > true, yet it is what we understand from these words

> > that is important.

> >

> > the marketing has been thoughtless == trance ==

> > samadhi.

>

> Here is a description of higher samadhis by Sri Ramana

> Maharshi.

>

> " There are two Nirvikalpas: the internal and the

> external. In the former the mind completely merges in

> the inmost Being and is aware of nothing else. This is

> compared to a lamp protected from wind. But in the

> latter, although the mind is absorbed in the Self, the

> sense of the world still prevails, without a reaction

> from within, and has the calm vastness of waveless

> ocean. In both the Self is realized in its nakedness

> and the essence of bliss experienced. When the

> waveless ocean of the external; and the steady flame

> of the internal Nirvikalpa (samadhis) are realized as

> identical, the ultimate goal, Sahaja Nirvikalpa

> Samadhi is said to have been reached. Nirvikalpa is

> effortless, whereas Savikalpa is attended with effort "

>

since you quoted authorities.... here are my favourites. of course i

cannot say anything after ramana.

http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/zen-writings/teachings-of-bodhidharma.htm

Student: The sutras say that someone who wholeheartedly invokes the

Buddha is sure to be reborn in the Western Paradise. Since is door

leads to Buddhahood, why seek liberation in beholding the mind?

Bodhidharma: If you're going to invoke the Buddha, you have to do it

right. Unless you understand what invoking means, you'll do it wrong.

And if you do it wrong, you'll never go anywhere.

Buddha means awareness, the awareness of body and mind that prevents

evil from arising in either. And to invoke means to call to mind, to

call constantly to mind the rules of discipline and to follow them

with all your might.

---------

Worship means reverence and humility it means revering your real self

and humbling delusions. If you can wipe out evil desires and harbor

good thoughts, even if nothing shows its worship. Such form is its

real form.

------------

Breakthrough Sermon

Student: If someone is determined to reach enlightenment, what is the

most essential method he can practice?

Bodhidharma: The most essential method, which includes all other

methods, is beholding the mind.

Student: But how can one method include all others?

Bodhidharma: The mind is the root from which all things grow if you

can understand the mind, everything else is included. It's like the

root of a tree. All a tree's fruit and flowers, branches and leaves

depend on its root. If you nourish its root, a tree multiplies. If you

cut its root, it dies. Those who understand the mind reach

enlightenment with minimal effort. Those who don't understand the mind

practice in vain. Everything good and bad comes from your own mind. To

find something beyond the mind is impossible.

Student: But bow can beholding the mind be called understanding?

Bodhidharma: When a great bodhisattva delves deeply into perfect

wisdom, he realizes that the four elements and five shades are devoid

of a personal self. And he realizes that the activity of his mind has

two aspects: pure and impure. By their very nature, these two mental

states are always present. They alternate as cause or effect depending

on conditions, the pure mind delighting in good deeds, the impure mind

thinking of evil. Those who aren't affected by impurity are sages.

They transcend suffering and experience the bliss of nirvana. All

others, trapped by the impure mind and entangled by their own karma,

are mortals. They drift through the three realms and suffer countless

afflictions and all because their impure mind obscures their real self.

March 22, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

> <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> > <anders_lindman> wrote:

> > >

> >

> > >

> > > But for me every kind of choice is a form of conflict. There is

simply

> > > no peace in the choice-making process, regardless if there is a 'me'

> > > making the choice or the choice just happens anyway. I feel

there must

> > > be a better way to live life than by making choices. Every kind of

> > > choice is stupid IMO. It's like don't knowing what to do. If you

know

> > > what to do, is choice really needed?

> > >

> >

> > these are your life circumstances. you have landed into them due to a

> > chain of decisions, some of which you made and know better now.

> >

> > so if your life is full of deadlocks, it will be like that for a while

> > till these situations work themselves out. even if your inner self

> > blossoms, the outer life's causes and effects will work at their own

> > pace. this is called " prarabdha " (karma now maturing and is

> irreversible).

> >

> > in the meantime you can still access the peace, but there will be a

> > strong possibility of relapse.

> >

> > > And a kind of common sense that brings peace? Well, I am the

result of

> > > billions of years of evolution and my so called common sense is

> > > worthless when it comes to making a peaceful living.

> > >

> >

> > maybe you should look to changing livelihood. but if you are

> > surrounded by wolves, don't expect life as a sheep will be easy .

> > probably you will have to pretend to be a wolf in daily life.

> >

> > it is a fallacy that life was supposed to be easy. that is the whole

> > point - how do you radiate love even when faced by the wolves. in some

> > cases you may have to fight like a wolf. but you are still full of

> > love internally.

>

> Maybe the fallacy is that life should be a struggle?

life is what it is.

for some it is a breeze, for others it is a struggle. but if it is a

struggle for you, you _could_ look at it as a good training ground to

test you. whether it is actually such is another matter. whether these

questions are actually completely answerable is another.

March 22, 2005

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

> > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> > > <anders_lindman> wrote:

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > But for me every kind of choice is a form of conflict. There is

> simply

> > > > no peace in the choice-making process, regardless if there is

a 'me'

> > > > making the choice or the choice just happens anyway. I feel

> there must

> > > > be a better way to live life than by making choices. Every kind of

> > > > choice is stupid IMO. It's like don't knowing what to do. If you

> know

> > > > what to do, is choice really needed?

> > > >

> > >

> > > these are your life circumstances. you have landed into them due

to a

> > > chain of decisions, some of which you made and know better now.

> > >

> > > so if your life is full of deadlocks, it will be like that for a

while

> > > till these situations work themselves out. even if your inner self

> > > blossoms, the outer life's causes and effects will work at their own

> > > pace. this is called " prarabdha " (karma now maturing and is

> > irreversible).

> > >

> > > in the meantime you can still access the peace, but there will be a

> > > strong possibility of relapse.

> > >

> > > > And a kind of common sense that brings peace? Well, I am the

> result of

> > > > billions of years of evolution and my so called common sense is

> > > > worthless when it comes to making a peaceful living.

> > > >

> > >

> > > maybe you should look to changing livelihood. but if you are

> > > surrounded by wolves, don't expect life as a sheep will be easy .

> > > probably you will have to pretend to be a wolf in daily life.

> > >

> > > it is a fallacy that life was supposed to be easy. that is the whole

> > > point - how do you radiate love even when faced by the wolves.

in some

> > > cases you may have to fight like a wolf. but you are still full of

> > > love internally.

> >

> > Maybe the fallacy is that life should be a struggle?

>

> life is what it is.

>

> for some it is a breeze, for others it is a struggle. but if it is a

> struggle for you, you _could_ look at it as a good training ground to

> test you. whether it is actually such is another matter. whether these

> questions are actually completely answerable is another.

Show me a person who does not struggle with life, and I will tell you

that you have indeed found a fearless one, a true sage, a choiceless

one. We can see very clearly in ourselves and in others how struggle

is connected to thought. Only for a Thoughtless one can life truly be

a breeze.

Clinging to common sense will make you struggle all the way to the

grave. ,-)

/AL

March 22, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> > life is what it is.

> >

> > for some it is a breeze, for others it is a struggle. but if it

is a

> > struggle for you, you _could_ look at it as a good training

ground to

> > test you. whether it is actually such is another matter. whether

these

> > questions are actually completely answerable is another.

>

> Show me a person who does not struggle with life, and I will tell

you

> that you have indeed found a fearless one, a true sage, a

choiceless

" struggling with life " is not the same as " struggling in life " .

struggle is part of life. struggling with life is something else and

is rejection of the message life is giving you.

> one. We can see very clearly in ourselves and in others how

struggle

> is connected to thought. Only for a Thoughtless one can life truly

be

> a breeze.

>

ah the escape.... once i escape i'll be happy. all decisions will be

made automatically.

> Clinging to common sense will make you struggle all the way to the

> grave. ,-)

>

you are afraid of the struggle. you see the marketing dept knows

your fears and the made the brochures for you.

accept struggle. every living being has to struggle. anyone who

claims enlightenment is choiceless coasting is a slacker trying to

attract slackers.

you already know what you want. and you want an escape. i know

because i wanted the same.

when i was young and naive i went to a wise man and wanted the same

escape you are looking for.

" how should i live? how do i decide what to do? " i asked him.

" be in the present and use you intelligence to make the choices " the

wise man said. I was pissed. I wanted him to teach me yoga. mantra.

tantra. anything to make it easy.

it took me a long time to understand. _this_ mind that you have, and

all that you have learnt...is to be used to navigate life.

March 22, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

> <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> > <anders_lindman> wrote:

> > >

> > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

> > > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> > > > <anders_lindman> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > But for me every kind of choice is a form of conflict.

There is

> > simply

> > > > > no peace in the choice-making process, regardless if there

is

> a 'me'

> > > > > making the choice or the choice just happens anyway. I feel

> > there must

> > > > > be a better way to live life than by making choices. Every

kind of

> > > > > choice is stupid IMO. It's like don't knowing what to do.

If you

> > know

> > > > > what to do, is choice really needed?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > these are your life circumstances. you have landed into them

due

> to a

> > > > chain of decisions, some of which you made and know better

now.

> > > >

> > > > so if your life is full of deadlocks, it will be like that

for a

> while

> > > > till these situations work themselves out. even if your inner

self

> > > > blossoms, the outer life's causes and effects will work at

their own

> > > > pace. this is called " prarabdha " (karma now maturing and is

> > > irreversible).

> > > >

> > > > in the meantime you can still access the peace, but there

will be a

> > > > strong possibility of relapse.

> > > >

> > > > > And a kind of common sense that brings peace? Well, I am the

> > result of

> > > > > billions of years of evolution and my so called common

sense is

> > > > > worthless when it comes to making a peaceful living.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > maybe you should look to changing livelihood. but if you are

> > > > surrounded by wolves, don't expect life as a sheep will be

easy .

> > > > probably you will have to pretend to be a wolf in daily life.

> > > >

> > > > it is a fallacy that life was supposed to be easy. that is

the whole

> > > > point - how do you radiate love even when faced by the wolves.

> in some

> > > > cases you may have to fight like a wolf. but you are still

full of

> > > > love internally.

> > >

> > > Maybe the fallacy is that life should be a struggle?

> >

> > life is what it is.

> >

> > for some it is a breeze, for others it is a struggle. but if it

is a

> > struggle for you, you _could_ look at it as a good training

ground to

> > test you. whether it is actually such is another matter. whether

these

> > questions are actually completely answerable is another.

>

> Show me a person who does not struggle with life, and I will tell

you

> that you have indeed found a fearless one, a true sage, a choiceless

> one. We can see very clearly in ourselves and in others how struggle

> is connected to thought. Only for a Thoughtless one can life truly

be

> a breeze.

>

> Clinging to common sense will make you struggle all the way to the

> grave. ,-)

>

> /AL

devi: better to find someone who is in sahaj samadi, who intimately

knows the two nirvikalpas, the Supreme...

March 22, 2005

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

> > > life is what it is.

> > >

> > > for some it is a breeze, for others it is a struggle. but if it

> is a

> > > struggle for you, you _could_ look at it as a good training

> ground to

> > > test you. whether it is actually such is another matter. whether

> these

> > > questions are actually completely answerable is another.

> >

> > Show me a person who does not struggle with life, and I will tell

> you

> > that you have indeed found a fearless one, a true sage, a

> choiceless

>

> " struggling with life " is not the same as " struggling in life " .

> struggle is part of life. struggling with life is something else and

> is rejection of the message life is giving you.

I am questioning the very idea of struggling in life. In fact, I am

questioning the whole ordinary idea of what life is. I am questioning

even the idea that I have a physical body. Sure, on the surface I have

a physical body, as a form of appearance. But this body is only a 3D

projection. I am not saying that you are wrong. Maybe life will always

be a struggle. Most people would probably think it is a crazy idea

that struggle should not be needed in life. Common sense tells us that

struggle will always be a part of life.

>

> > one. We can see very clearly in ourselves and in others how

> struggle

> > is connected to thought. Only for a Thoughtless one can life truly

> be

> > a breeze.

> >

>

> ah the escape.... once i escape i'll be happy. all decisions will be

> made automatically.

My idea is that there will be no decisions at all, that decision

indicates conflict, and not a mature state. And those decisions that

are made today are _already_ automatic.

>

> > Clinging to common sense will make you struggle all the way to the

> > grave. ,-)

> >

>

> you are afraid of the struggle. you see the marketing dept knows

> your fears and the made the brochures for you.

>

> accept struggle. every living being has to struggle. anyone who

> claims enlightenment is choiceless coasting is a slacker trying to

> attract slackers.

>

> you already know what you want. and you want an escape. i know

> because i wanted the same.

>

> when i was young and naive i went to a wise man and wanted the same

> escape you are looking for.

>

> " how should i live? how do i decide what to do? " i asked him.

>

> " be in the present and use you intelligence to make the choices " the

> wise man said. I was pissed. I wanted him to teach me yoga. mantra.

> tantra. anything to make it easy.

>

> it took me a long time to understand. _this_ mind that you have, and

> all that you have learnt...is to be used to navigate life.

I am afraid of struggle because I see it as something stupid and

fragmented, and I ask myself: must I remain stupid and fragmented the

rest of my life? And the nightmare is this: after I die I am reborn

again as exactly the same person with the same struggle, and then I

die again, and is reborn as the same person... again and again...

exactly the same life being lived lifetime after lifetime....on March

23 2005 I will be typing these words in lifetime after lifetime...

/AL

March 23, 2005

In a message dated 3/22/05 9:57:47 PM, anders_lindman writes:

> I am afraid of struggle because I see it as something stupid and

> fragmented, and I ask myself: must I remain stupid and fragmented the

> rest of my life? And the nightmare is this: after I die I am reborn

> again as exactly the same person with the same struggle, and then I

> die again, and is reborn as the same person... again and again...

> exactly the same life being lived lifetime after lifetime....on March

> 23 2005 I will be typing these words in lifetime after lifetime...

>

P: That was Nietzsche's idea, wasn't it? An imaginary horror to scare the

thoughtless. Even if you had repeated the same life a billion times,

without the memory of having done so, it's always new. The whole

idea is nothing but unverifiable nonsense dreamed up by a madman.

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> I am questioning the very idea of struggling in life. In fact, I am

> questioning the whole ordinary idea of what life is. I am questioning

> even the idea that I have a physical body. Sure, on the surface I have

> a physical body, as a form of appearance. But this body is only a 3D

> projection. I am not saying that you are wrong. Maybe life will always

> be a struggle. Most people would probably think it is a crazy idea

> that struggle should not be needed in life. Common sense tells us that

> struggle will always be a part of life.

>

.......

every form is a struggle because it is being torn down. when a " chair "

takes form, a " not-chair " has taken form (the rest of the universe).

when there is clinging to form, there will be pain.

anyone who claims he does not cling to the life-body is a liar.

clinging to life is natural. and pain is part of life.

psychological pain ( " suffering " in buddhism) can be eased.

>

> My idea is that there will be no decisions at all, that decision

> indicates conflict, and not a mature state. And those decisions that

> are made today are _already_ automatic.

>

you are the only branch of evolution who has been given the free will.

you have the freedom to create.

unfortunately that means you have to have the maturity to accept

mistakes and pain.

> >

> > it took me a long time to understand. _this_ mind that you have, and

> > all that you have learnt...is to be used to navigate life.

>

> I am afraid of struggle because I see it as something stupid and

> fragmented, and I ask myself: must I remain stupid and fragmented the

> rest of my life? And the nightmare is this: after I die I am reborn

> again as exactly the same person with the same struggle, and then I

> die again, and is reborn as the same person... again and again...

> exactly the same life being lived lifetime after lifetime....on March

> 23 2005 I will be typing these words in lifetime after lifetime...

>

once you are in love, not with anything in particular - that will cure

your fear. te struggle will not go away because that has now

manifested in the external world. the external world is the slowest to

change.

be aware of your predicament. it is yours and oy in you will the

flowering occur because of it. it does lead to growth. i cannot tell

you what will happen after death, or in the next life because i really

don't know.

the inportant thing is not what you receive from the universe (money,

fame, samadhi, easy life...), but what you give. if you give love,

there is no guarantee you will not receive scorn. but in your heart

you will be at peace.

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

>

> >

> > I am questioning the very idea of struggling in life. In fact, I am

> > questioning the whole ordinary idea of what life is. I am questioning

> > even the idea that I have a physical body. Sure, on the surface I have

> > a physical body, as a form of appearance. But this body is only a 3D

> > projection. I am not saying that you are wrong. Maybe life will always

> > be a struggle. Most people would probably think it is a crazy idea

> > that struggle should not be needed in life. Common sense tells us that

> > struggle will always be a part of life.

> >

> ......

> every form is a struggle because it is being torn down. when a " chair "

> takes form, a " not-chair " has taken form (the rest of the universe).

>

> when there is clinging to form, there will be pain.

>

> anyone who claims he does not cling to the life-body is a liar.

> clinging to life is natural. and pain is part of life.

>

> psychological pain ( " suffering " in buddhism) can be eased.

I suspect that emotional (psychological) pain and physical pain are

related. I can often sense pain as a total field inluding both

emotions and physical pain.

>

> >

> > My idea is that there will be no decisions at all, that decision

> > indicates conflict, and not a mature state. And those decisions that

> > are made today are _already_ automatic.

> >

>

> you are the only branch of evolution who has been given the free will.

> you have the freedom to create.

>

> unfortunately that means you have to have the maturity to accept

> mistakes and pain.

What if individual free will is an illusion and the cause of pain?

Many sages say that " you never have done anything, and you never will "

(talking about the separate ego). It's like a kid sitting in a toy car

at an amusement park. The kid is wildly turning the steering wheel,

and goes " wroom wroom " , but the car is not going anywhere. ))

>

> > >

> > > it took me a long time to understand. _this_ mind that you have,

and

> > > all that you have learnt...is to be used to navigate life.

> >

> > I am afraid of struggle because I see it as something stupid and

> > fragmented, and I ask myself: must I remain stupid and fragmented the

> > rest of my life? And the nightmare is this: after I die I am reborn

> > again as exactly the same person with the same struggle, and then I

> > die again, and is reborn as the same person... again and again...

> > exactly the same life being lived lifetime after lifetime....on March

> > 23 2005 I will be typing these words in lifetime after lifetime...

> >

>

> once you are in love, not with anything in particular - that will cure

> your fear. te struggle will not go away because that has now

> manifested in the external world. the external world is the slowest to

> change.

>

> be aware of your predicament. it is yours and oy in you will the

> flowering occur because of it. it does lead to growth. i cannot tell

> you what will happen after death, or in the next life because i really

> don't know.

>

> the inportant thing is not what you receive from the universe (money,

> fame, samadhi, easy life...), but what you give. if you give love,

> there is no guarantee you will not receive scorn. but in your heart

> you will be at peace.

" wroom wroom " ,-)

/AL

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote:

>

> In a message dated 3/22/05 9:57:47 PM, anders_lindman writes:

>

> > I am afraid of struggle because I see it as something stupid and

> > fragmented, and I ask myself: must I remain stupid and fragmented the

> > rest of my life? And the nightmare is this: after I die I am reborn

> > again as exactly the same person with the same struggle, and then I

> > die again, and is reborn as the same person... again and again...

> > exactly the same life being lived lifetime after lifetime....on March

> > 23 2005 I will be typing these words in lifetime after lifetime...

> >

>

> P: That was Nietzsche's idea, wasn't it? An imaginary horror to

scare the

> thoughtless. Even if you had repeated the same life a billion times,

> without the memory of having done so, it's always new. The whole

> idea is nothing but unverifiable nonsense dreamed up by a madman.

>

It's true that I don't remember anything of past lifetimes, and thank

God for that! :-)

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote:

> >

> > In a message dated 3/22/05 9:57:47 PM, anders_lindman writes:

> >

> > > I am afraid of struggle because I see it as something stupid and

> > > fragmented, and I ask myself: must I remain stupid and

fragmented the

> > > rest of my life? And the nightmare is this: after I die I am

reborn

> > > again as exactly the same person with the same struggle, and

then I

> > > die again, and is reborn as the same person... again and

again...

> > > exactly the same life being lived lifetime after lifetime....on

March

> > > 23 2005 I will be typing these words in lifetime after

lifetime...

> > >

> >

> > P: That was Nietzsche's idea, wasn't it? An imaginary horror to

> scare the

> > thoughtless. Even if you had repeated the same life a billion

times,

> > without the memory of having done so, it's always new. The whole

> > idea is nothing but unverifiable nonsense dreamed up by a madman.

>

> It's true that I don't remember anything of past lifetimes, and

thank

> God for that! :-)

f. " Anders " hasn't had any past lifetimes,

yet has access to all the cell memory traces/tapes

that ever existed, even though you may not

realize it. All those voices in your head,

telling you this and that.

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " carolina112900 "

<freyjartist@a...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote:

> > >

> > > In a message dated 3/22/05 9:57:47 PM, anders_lindman writes:

> > >

> > > > I am afraid of struggle because I see it as something stupid and

> > > > fragmented, and I ask myself: must I remain stupid and

> fragmented the

> > > > rest of my life? And the nightmare is this: after I die I am

> reborn

> > > > again as exactly the same person with the same struggle, and

> then I

> > > > die again, and is reborn as the same person... again and

> again...

> > > > exactly the same life being lived lifetime after lifetime....on

> March

> > > > 23 2005 I will be typing these words in lifetime after

> lifetime...

> > > >

> > >

> > > P: That was Nietzsche's idea, wasn't it? An imaginary horror to

> > scare the

> > > thoughtless. Even if you had repeated the same life a billion

> times,

> > > without the memory of having done so, it's always new. The whole

> > > idea is nothing but unverifiable nonsense dreamed up by a madman.

> >

> > It's true that I don't remember anything of past lifetimes, and

> thank

> > God for that! :-)

>

> f. " Anders " hasn't had any past lifetimes,

> yet has access to all the cell memory traces/tapes

> that ever existed, even though you may not

> realize it. All those voices in your head,

> telling you this and that.

That is a much better view of what reality is, I think. We can access

information from the infinite info realm, but there is no " personal

past me " to be found, or rather we could find an infinite number of

past personal me:s.

/AL

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> >

> > psychological pain ( " suffering " in buddhism) can be eased.

>

> I suspect that emotional (psychological) pain and physical pain are

> related. I can often sense pain as a total field inluding both

> emotions and physical pain.

>

there is pain as in pain conveyed by senses (or " pain is present " ).

and there is pain as in pain caused by memory, or fear of pain (or,

" pain is imagined " ).

similarly with other emotions.

the first comes from mother nature and although aspirin is a help, it

will always be a possibility.

the imaginary pain is the main problem as it has no end. it can be

eased significantly. this is all the hope i can give you. i cannot

give you fantasies of " light bodies " , spaced out states with no free

will and so on.

>

> What if individual free will is an illusion and the cause of pain?

" what if " ? you should know better.

it is what your understanding of it is.

if you feel there is free will it is. if you know it isn't, it isn't.

you know very well it is there, and you don't like the responsibility

it brings.

the causes of suffering have been discussed by the buddha.

> Many sages say that " you never have done anything, and you never will "

> (talking about the separate ego). It's like a kid sitting in a toy car

> at an amusement park. The kid is wildly turning the steering wheel,

> and goes " wroom wroom " , but the car is not going anywhere. ))

>

what they say is true. your true-nature is forever free and untainted

even if you are the biggest sinner.

but you are drawing conclusions which suit you.

some sages have said there is no free will, but that (IMO) was to a

specific disciple at a specific stage.

even if there is no free will, you are the only entity to have it and

hence to use or misuse it. if you say there is no free will, and sit

there like a log, you have already used your free will.

> >

>

> " wroom wroom " ,-)

sorry don't understand what you mean.

we complain about things when they don't go according to our plans. a

few successes and we love it. that is normal. that is also immature.

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

>

> > >

> > > psychological pain ( " suffering " in buddhism) can be eased.

> >

> > I suspect that emotional (psychological) pain and physical pain are

> > related. I can often sense pain as a total field inluding both

> > emotions and physical pain.

> >

>

> there is pain as in pain conveyed by senses (or " pain is present " ).

>

> and there is pain as in pain caused by memory, or fear of pain (or,

> " pain is imagined " ).

>

> similarly with other emotions.

>

> the first comes from mother nature and although aspirin is a help, it

> will always be a possibility.

>

> the imaginary pain is the main problem as it has no end. it can be

> eased significantly. this is all the hope i can give you. i cannot

> give you fantasies of " light bodies " , spaced out states with no free

> will and so on.

Thanks.

>

> >

> > What if individual free will is an illusion and the cause of pain?

>

> " what if " ? you should know better.

>

> it is what your understanding of it is.

>

> if you feel there is free will it is. if you know it isn't, it isn't.

>

> you know very well it is there, and you don't like the responsibility

> it brings.

>

> the causes of suffering have been discussed by the buddha.

Responsibility is pain caused by memory.

>

> > Many sages say that " you never have done anything, and you never will "

> > (talking about the separate ego). It's like a kid sitting in a toy car

> > at an amusement park. The kid is wildly turning the steering wheel,

> > and goes " wroom wroom " , but the car is not going anywhere. ))

> >

>

> what they say is true. your true-nature is forever free and untainted

> even if you are the biggest sinner.

>

> but you are drawing conclusions which suit you.

>

> some sages have said there is no free will, but that (IMO) was to a

> specific disciple at a specific stage.

>

> even if there is no free will, you are the only entity to have it and

> hence to use or misuse it. if you say there is no free will, and sit

> there like a log, you have already used your free will.

Being choiceless does not mean being actionless.

>

> > >

>

> >

> > " wroom wroom " ,-)

>

> sorry don't understand what you mean.

>

> we complain about things when they don't go according to our plans. a

> few successes and we love it. that is normal. that is also immature.

By " wroom wroom " I mean that we are writing these posts as if there

were separate persons acting while what possibly really happens is

that we just believe ourselves to be responsible doers, just like a

kid sitting in a toy car believing himself or herself steering the car

that is going around on a track automatically in an amusement park.

/AL

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

> > if you feel there is free will it is. if you know it isn't, it isn't.

> >

> > you know very well it is there, and you don't like the responsibility

> > it brings.

> >

> > the causes of suffering have been discussed by the buddha.

>

> Responsibility is pain caused by memory.

>

responsibility is a natural outcome of love.

> >

> > even if there is no free will, you are the only entity to have it and

> > hence to use or misuse it. if you say there is no free will, and sit

> > there like a log, you have already used your free will.

>

> Being choiceless does not mean being actionless.

>

at any moment there are almost infinite number of actions you could

initiate.

which one do you ?

isn't that a choice?

action implies choice because a particular action was manifested and

others were not.

> By " wroom wroom " I mean that we are writing these posts as if there

> were separate persons acting while what possibly really happens is

> that we just believe ourselves to be responsible doers, just like a

> kid sitting in a toy car believing himself or herself steering the car

> that is going around on a track automatically in an amusement park.

>

do you really believe this? i mean really, _really_. or is it another

escape?

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> > > if you feel there is free will it is. if you know it isn't, it

isn't.

> > >

> > > you know very well it is there, and you don't like the

responsibility

> > > it brings.

> > >

> > > the causes of suffering have been discussed by the buddha.

> >

> > Responsibility is pain caused by memory.

> >

>

> responsibility is a natural outcome of love.

Lack of responsibility is is also pain, so yes responsibility must be

natural, must be all-embracing, not separate, not fragmened.

>

> > >

> > > even if there is no free will, you are the only entity to have

it and

> > > hence to use or misuse it. if you say there is no free will, and sit

> > > there like a log, you have already used your free will.

> >

> > Being choiceless does not mean being actionless.

> >

>

> at any moment there are almost infinite number of actions you could

> initiate.

>

> which one do you ?

>

> isn't that a choice?

>

> action implies choice because a particular action was manifested and

> others were not.

As I see it there is free will because there are an endless number of

possible choices in each moment. But in order to make the best choice

without conflict, then you must work in harmony with every particle,

every being in the universe. Only infinite intelligence can make such

choice.

" ...you are already telling yourself that you are a supreme

intelligence........but it's not intelligent to [suffer]......it is a

lack of intelligence to suffer.....real intelligence never suffers... "

-- Vernin Howard

See: http://www.anewlife.org/html/sound_library.html

>

> > By " wroom wroom " I mean that we are writing these posts as if there

> > were separate persons acting while what possibly really happens is

> > that we just believe ourselves to be responsible doers, just like a

> > kid sitting in a toy car believing himself or herself steering the car

> > that is going around on a track automatically in an amusement park.

> >

>

> do you really believe this? i mean really, _really_. or is it another

> escape?

I believe it is infinite intelligence which makes the universe happen,

and that we are that intelligence. That intelligence has to make

perfect choices in each moment, or else the whole manifestation would

blow up in an explosion with the slightest 'bad' choice on the quantum

level. Think about the intelligence that holds and manifests every

particle in the universe. We take that power for granted. But just

look at this manifestation! So in that sense there is no separate

limited free will, because that would fuck up existence in an instant.

Instead there is the One Will, God's Will, or what we want to call it.

/AL

March 23, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> As I see it there is free will because there are an endless number of

> possible choices in each moment. But in order to make the best choice

> without conflict, then you must work in harmony with every particle,

> every being in the universe. Only infinite intelligence can make such

> choice.

>

" mistakes " (or non-optimal choices) will happen. they will happen

because you can never know the universe completely, and your

intelligence is not perfect.

your intentions should align with love for you to be at peace. if that

does not happen naturally, then just be aware of the intentions.

>

> I believe it is infinite intelligence which makes the universe happen,

> and that we are that intelligence. That intelligence has to make

> perfect choices in each moment, or else the whole manifestation would

it is perfect in the sense it does not doubt.

but there is enough cruelty and suffering in nature....

> blow up in an explosion with the slightest 'bad' choice on the quantum

> level. Think about the intelligence that holds and manifests every

> particle in the universe. We take that power for granted. But just

> look at this manifestation! So in that sense there is no separate

> limited free will, because that would fuck up existence in an instant.

> Instead there is the One Will, God's Will, or what we want to call it.

>

the One Will is that you have free will and with that free will, love

arise naturally in your heart.

March 24, 2005

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

>

> >

> > As I see it there is free will because there are an endless number of

> > possible choices in each moment. But in order to make the best choice

> > without conflict, then you must work in harmony with every particle,

> > every being in the universe. Only infinite intelligence can make such

> > choice.

> >

>

> " mistakes " (or non-optimal choices) will happen. they will happen

> because you can never know the universe completely, and your

> intelligence is not perfect.

>

> your intentions should align with love for you to be at peace. if that

> does not happen naturally, then just be aware of the intentions.

Here is where I am not so certain. I believe that ultimately is is

infinite intelligence that makes this manifested world possible. Every

particle is connected to every other particle in the universe. If you

want to change the universe you must know how to change the _entire_

universe. No event happens in isolation. Kosmos is an interconnected

wholeness. Limited intelligence has no chance of changing _anything_.

This does not mean that there is no such thing as separate

intelligence or separate free will, but rather, that these are just

waves in an ocean of infinite intelligence. It is the ocean as a whole

that creates real change, but from every view less than wholeness it

will appear that individual intelligence exists, and maybe it _must_

exist in order to create the One and the Many.

>

> >

> > I believe it is infinite intelligence which makes the universe happen,

> > and that we are that intelligence. That intelligence has to make

> > perfect choices in each moment, or else the whole manifestation would

>

> it is perfect in the sense it does not doubt.

>

> but there is enough cruelty and suffering in nature....

>

> > blow up in an explosion with the slightest 'bad' choice on the quantum

> > level. Think about the intelligence that holds and manifests every

> > particle in the universe. We take that power for granted. But just

> > look at this manifestation! So in that sense there is no separate

> > limited free will, because that would fuck up existence in an instant.

> > Instead there is the One Will, God's Will, or what we want to call it.

> >

>

> the One Will is that you have free will and with that free will, love

> arise naturally in your heart.

But then we are still in the belief of separation. The idea of not

being separate is spooky. I feel one must approach such idea

carefully. If there is only One Awareness, then I am indeed completely

alone! How utterly horrible, the mind thinks. But then we must reach

deeper into awareness and recognize thoughts and emotions as phenomena

_in_ awareness. This must be an actual recognition and not just an

idea, because if we are stuck with oneness as an idea it will remain

only a nice belief or a scary possibility. At first the mind goes:

Oneness, yes, I got it, everything is connected. And that can be a

nice belief. But the next step is more spooky: If all is Oneness then

I am all alone! And that is the scary part. The third step is to

recognize thoughts and ideas as " me, yet not me " . I am not talking

about supression here, but rather a direct feeling of Maya as Maya.

/AL

March 24, 2005

Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

<anders_lindman> wrote:

>

> Here is where I am not so certain. I believe that ultimately is is

> infinite intelligence that makes this manifested world possible. Every

> particle is connected to every other particle in the universe. If you

> want to change the universe you must know how to change the _entire_

> universe. No event happens in isolation. Kosmos is an interconnected

what is an " event " ? when did it start and end? what were the spatial

limits for it? your memory thinks of name-form and causality.

these are the traps of name and form. since the boundaries are in the

mind, the limits of the effects are also in the mind.

there is the thing about scale. most likely you cannot affect the

faraway galaxies in any measureable way - maybe for your good.

> wholeness. Limited intelligence has no chance of changing _anything_.

these are mental models. they will just spin around.

> >

> > the One Will is that you have free will and with that free will, love

> > arise naturally in your heart.

>

> But then we are still in the belief of separation. The idea of not

you as a person are an expression of the infinite. you are separate

and non-separate.

> nice belief. But the next step is more spooky: If all is Oneness then

> I am all alone! And that is the scary part. The third step is to

> recognize thoughts and ideas as " me, yet not me " . I am not talking

> about supression here, but rather a direct feeling of Maya as Maya.

>

you are worrying about crossing the bridge that has not arrived yet.

your evolution is the evolution of the whole. when the drop is ready

the ocean will appear.

these questions do not get resolved. they just get washed away as

irrelevant.

March 24, 2005

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

>

> >

> > Here is where I am not so certain. I believe that ultimately is is

> > infinite intelligence that makes this manifested world possible. Every

> > particle is connected to every other particle in the universe. If you

> > want to change the universe you must know how to change the _entire_

> > universe. No event happens in isolation. Kosmos is an interconnected

>

> what is an " event " ? when did it start and end? what were the spatial

> limits for it? your memory thinks of name-form and causality.

>

> these are the traps of name and form. since the boundaries are in the

> mind, the limits of the effects are also in the mind.

>

> there is the thing about scale. most likely you cannot affect the

> faraway galaxies in any measureable way - maybe for your good.

Our inability to trace an origin for any separate event is an evidence

for the interconnected nature of reality. This means also that we

cannot trace the origin of free will. Everything is one single event,

which is not even an event. Reality just _is_.

>

> > wholeness. Limited intelligence has no chance of changing _anything_.

>

> these are mental models. they will just spin around.

Can we trace back to the origin of any event? Does limited

intelligence act as a causeless cause?

>

> > >

> > > the One Will is that you have free will and with that free will,

love

> > > arise naturally in your heart.

> >

> > But then we are still in the belief of separation. The idea of not

>

> you as a person are an expression of the infinite. you are separate

> and non-separate.

Yes, and some sages claim to have lost the sense of separation. Maybe

that is not such big step after all. Just to recognize that the

separation is only on the surface of things.

>

> > nice belief. But the next step is more spooky: If all is Oneness then

> > I am all alone! And that is the scary part. The third step is to

> > recognize thoughts and ideas as " me, yet not me " . I am not talking

> > about supression here, but rather a direct feeling of Maya as Maya.

> >

>

> you are worrying about crossing the bridge that has not arrived yet.

>

> your evolution is the evolution of the whole. when the drop is ready

> the ocean will appear.

>

> these questions do not get resolved. they just get washed away as

> irrelevant.

And then there is hopefully clarity.

March 24, 2005

-

anders_lindman

Nisargadatta

Thursday, March 24, 2005 4:48 PM

Re: Thoughtless state

Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

<hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

>

> Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> <anders_lindman> wrote:

> >

>

> >

> > Here is where I am not so certain. I believe that ultimately is is

> > infinite intelligence that makes this manifested world possible. Every

> > particle is connected to every other particle in the universe. If you

> > want to change the universe you must know how to change the _entire_

> > universe. No event happens in isolation. Kosmos is an interconnected

>

> what is an " event " ? when did it start and end? what were the spatial

> limits for it? your memory thinks of name-form and causality.

>

> these are the traps of name and form. since the boundaries are in the

> mind, the limits of the effects are also in the mind.

>

> there is the thing about scale. most likely you cannot affect the

> faraway galaxies in any measureable way - maybe for your good.

Our inability to trace an origin for any separate event is an evidence

for the interconnected nature of reality. This means also that we

cannot trace the origin of free will. Everything is one single event,

which is not even an event. Reality just _is_.

>

> > wholeness. Limited intelligence has no chance of changing _anything_.

>

> these are mental models. they will just spin around.

Can we trace back to the origin of any event? Does limited

intelligence act as a causeless cause?

>

> > >

> > > the One Will is that you have free will and with that free will,

love

> > > arise naturally in your heart.

> >

> > But then we are still in the belief of separation. The idea of not

>

> you as a person are an expression of the infinite. you are separate

> and non-separate.

Yes, and some sages claim to have lost the sense of separation. Maybe

that is not such big step after all. Just to recognize that the

separation is only on the surface of things.

>

> > nice belief. But the next step is more spooky: If all is Oneness then

> > I am all alone! And that is the scary part. The third step is to

> > recognize thoughts and ideas as " me, yet not me " . I am not talking

> > about supression here, but rather a direct feeling of Maya as Maya.

> >

>

> you are worrying about crossing the bridge that has not arrived yet.

>

> your evolution is the evolution of the whole. when the drop is ready

> the ocean will appear.

>

> these questions do not get resolved. they just get washed away as

> irrelevant.

And then there is hopefully clarity.

**

clarity is seeing what is...

anything else is part and parcel of humanistic/separatist thinking.

having said that, there are still alpha and omega 'experiences' if you will.

a.

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March 24, 2005

Nisargadatta , " Anna Ruiz " <nli10u@c...> wrote:

>

> -

> anders_lindman

> Nisargadatta

> Thursday, March 24, 2005 4:48 PM

> Re: Thoughtless state

>

> Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 "

> <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote:

> >

> > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman "

> > <anders_lindman> wrote:

> > >

> >

> > >

> > > Here is where I am not so certain. I believe that ultimately is is

> > > infinite intelligence that makes this manifested world

possible. Every

> > > particle is connected to every other particle in the universe.

If you

> > > want to change the universe you must know how to change the

_entire_

> > > universe. No event happens in isolation. Kosmos is an

interconnected

> >

> > what is an " event " ? when did it start and end? what were the

spatial

> > limits for it? your memory thinks of name-form and causality.

> >

> > these are the traps of name and form. since the boundaries are

in the

> > mind, the limits of the effects are also in the mind.

> >

> > there is the thing about scale. most likely you cannot affect the

> > faraway galaxies in any measureable way - maybe for your good.

>

> Our inability to trace an origin for any separate event is an evidence

> for the interconnected nature of reality. This means also that we

> cannot trace the origin of free will. Everything is one single event,

> which is not even an event. Reality just _is_.

>

> >

> > > wholeness. Limited intelligence has no chance of changing

_anything_.

> >

> > these are mental models. they will just spin around.

>

> Can we trace back to the origin of any event? Does limited

> intelligence act as a causeless cause?

>

> >

> > > >

> > > > the One Will is that you have free will and with that free will,

> love

> > > > arise naturally in your heart.

> > >

> > > But then we are still in the belief of separation. The idea of not

> >

> > you as a person are an expression of the infinite. you are separate

> > and non-separate.

>

> Yes, and some sages claim to have lost the sense of separation. Maybe

> that is not such big step after all. Just to recognize that the

> separation is only on the surface of things.

>

> >

> > > nice belief. But the next step is more spooky: If all is

Oneness then

> > > I am all alone! And that is the scary part. The third step is to

> > > recognize thoughts and ideas as " me, yet not me " . I am not talking

> > > about supression here, but rather a direct feeling of Maya as

Maya.

> > >

> >

> > you are worrying about crossing the bridge that has not arrived yet.

> >

> > your evolution is the evolution of the whole. when the drop is ready

> > the ocean will appear.

> >

> > these questions do not get resolved. they just get washed away as

> > irrelevant.

>

> And then there is hopefully clarity.

>

> **

>

> clarity is seeing what is...

>

> anything else is part and parcel of humanistic/separatist thinking.

>

> having said that, there are still alpha and omega 'experiences' if

you will.

>

> a.

>

I found this interesting book description of what our experiences are:

" Never before has a book explained with such clarity why 'physical'

reality is merely an illusion that only exists in our brain.

Why the 'world' is a virtual reality game that only exists because we

believe it does.

Fantastic? Sure it is.

But David Icke's information, presented in a way that everyone can

understand, is a life-changing exposure of both the illusion we

believe to be 'real' and the way this illusion is generated and

manipulated to imprison us in a false reality.

Icke explains how we 'live'in a 'holographic internet' in that our

brains are connected to a central 'computer' that feeds us the same

collective reality that we decode from waveforms and electrical

signals into the holographic 3D 'world' that we all think we see.

As Icke points out, the various disciplines of mainstream science have

already discovered much of this information, but the parts have never

been put together. They have focussed on the twigs and not seen the

forest because the forces manipulating global society have no wish for

us to know the truth that will set us free. "

http://www.bridgeoflove.com/

The above text is about the book " Infinite Love is the Only Truth

_Everything_ Else is Illusion " by David Icke. Mad as his theories may

seem, I find this particular description to be very similar to my idea

of Maya. Physical reality is not solid and has no substance other than

what the One Consciousness makes it appear to have. Interestingly,

this view is also similar to Nisargadatta's description of reality.

al.

March 24, 2005

-

anders_lindman

Nisargadatta

Thursday, March 24, 2005 5:23 PM