Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 In a message dated 3/21/05 1:42:25 PM, anders_lindman writes: > Such Thoughtless state would give true freedom I imagine. There would > be no fear needed, because in such state one could do no wrong. Even > being angry, nasty or simply being a jerk or making a fool of oneself > would be no problem at all. There would always be full responsibility > in every action; full response-ability. There would be no worry > because psychological time in the form thinking would not be needed. > Future conscequences would be taken care of automatically - in a way > outsourced to life itself - freeing oneself for experiencing the > present moment in a richer way and with more clarity. This would, I > assume, also bring a total relaxation in body and mind, resulting in > true and profound peace. > > /AL > P: That's exactly so, Al. And you either read that somewhere, or you have been there somehow and lost it, or you just discovered it. Which is it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 There is a difference between being thoughtless and being Thoughtless. To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then there is always 100% responsibility in every action without having to _think_ about being responsible. Is such Thoughtless state possible? /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and being Thoughtless. > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then > there is always 100% responsibility in every action without having to > _think_ about being responsible. > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > be in the present, alert, with compassion. then see for yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and > being Thoughtless. > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in > being less than > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where > clarity has > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call > thinking and then > there is always 100% responsibility in every action > without having to > _think_ about being responsible. > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > /AL The door is unlocked. Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and being Thoughtless. > > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than > > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has > > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then > > there is always 100% responsibility in every action without having to > > _think_ about being responsible. > > > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > > > be in the present, alert, with compassion. then see for yourself. Yes, it would be interesting to see if it is possible. So that responsibility in the form of thinking is replaced by full response-ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and being Thoughtless. > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then > there is always 100% responsibility in every action without having to > _think_ about being responsible. > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > /AL Thoughtless state is that of ....NOT ...being `anything' ....Not being ...'a thing'. To understand it, ....you can try to understand ...Deep Dreamless Sleep. To remember it, ....you can try to remember the state of ...Deep Dreamless Sleep. Or, you can simply say there is ...Nothing to Remember, ....Nothing to understand. The state of being ...Nothing ....the state of being ... " No thing " . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and > > being Thoughtless. > > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in > > being less than > > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where > > clarity has > > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call > > thinking and then > > there is always 100% responsibility in every action > > without having to > > _think_ about being responsible. > > > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > > > /AL > > The door is unlocked. > > Lewis > Such Thoughtless state would give true freedom I imagine. There would be no fear needed, because in such state one could do no wrong. Even being angry, nasty or simply being a jerk or making a fool of oneself would be no problem at all. There would always be full responsibility in every action; full response-ability. There would be no worry because psychological time in the form thinking would not be needed. Future conscequences would be taken care of automatically - in a way outsourced to life itself - freeing oneself for experiencing the present moment in a richer way and with more clarity. This would, I assume, also bring a total relaxation in body and mind, resulting in true and profound peace. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and being > Thoughtless. > > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than > > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has > > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then > > there is always 100% responsibility in every action without having > to > > _think_ about being responsible. > > > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > > > /AL > > Thoughtless state is that of ....NOT ...being `anything' > ...Not being ...'a thing'. > > To understand it, > ...you can try to understand ...Deep Dreamless Sleep. > > To remember it, > ...you can try to remember the state of ...Deep Dreamless Sleep. > > > Or, you can simply say there is ...Nothing to Remember, > ...Nothing to understand. > > The state of being ...Nothing > ...the state of being ... " No thing " . It is of different state, ....different order. As they say, ... only an `I' could be responsible, ....but, `I' itself is a thought, ...the first thought. The beginning of all other thoughts. ...... .... .. Think of an unborn child, ...once it is born, ....it can be either be responsible or ...irresponsible. But as long as it is unborn, ....it is neither responsible nor responsible. It is simply NOT there, ....when looked from that perspective. Think of silence, ....is it melodious or is it noisy. Is it of simply different dimension ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " <adithya_comming> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and being > Thoughtless. > > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than > > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has > > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then > > there is always 100% responsibility in every action without having > to > > _think_ about being responsible. > > > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > > > /AL > > Thoughtless state is that of ....NOT ...being `anything' > ...Not being ...'a thing'. > > To understand it, > ...you can try to understand ...Deep Dreamless Sleep. > > To remember it, > ...you can try to remember the state of ...Deep Dreamless Sleep. > > > Or, you can simply say there is ...Nothing to Remember, > ...Nothing to understand. > > The state of being ...Nothing > ...the state of being ... " No thing " . Eckhart Tolle talks about a state of space consciousness, and he describes the thinking mind's inability to grasp this state: " .....'I once had it [space consciousness]'...........that's an illusion....................'and then I lost it'.............that's another illusion.......because there is [in the state of space consciousness] nothing to remember... " /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " adithya_comming " > <adithya_comming> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and being > > Thoughtless. > > > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than > > > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has > > > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then > > > there is always 100% responsibility in every action without having > > to > > > _think_ about being responsible. > > > > > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > > > > > /AL > > > > Thoughtless state is that of ....NOT ...being `anything' > > ...Not being ...'a thing'. > > > > To understand it, > > ...you can try to understand ...Deep Dreamless Sleep. > > > > To remember it, > > ...you can try to remember the state of ...Deep Dreamless Sleep. > > > > > > Or, you can simply say there is ...Nothing to Remember, > > ...Nothing to understand. > > > > The state of being ...Nothing > > ...the state of being ... " No thing " . > > Eckhart Tolle talks about a state of space consciousness, and he > describes the thinking mind's inability to grasp this state: " .....'I > once had it [space consciousness]'...........that's an > illusion....................'and then I lost it'.............that's > another illusion.......because there is [in the state of space > consciousness] nothing to remember... " > > /AL Silence can get filled with sound ... ....or, might remain as Pure Silence. Space might get filled with things, ....or might remain unfilled, Sound arise and fall in silence ... Thing get born and dies in Space ... Dreams appear and disappear in the sleeping consciousness ... Would you say that the sleeping consciousness dies when dreams appear ? ...... .... .. Would you say, the sky dies, ...when, clouds appear, Would you say the ocean dies, ...when waves appear, Would you, the spacious consciousness dies, ...when thinking appears ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 In a message dated 3/21/05 3:18:00 PM, anders_lindman writes: > A combination all these things I guess. I have practiced > self-observation for a long time, and the more I observe the more > nastiness I can feel inside me. Then there comes a point where the > internal suffering can't be tolerated any longer and somehow collapses > under its own weight. I hope this suffering with its foundation in > fear will continue to collapse in me so that I can feel more and more > free. I guess that a total collapse could bring about some form of > Thoughtlessness, but I don't know if it is possible or if it will > happen to me. > > /AL > > P: It's possible, and it could happen, but not to a you. You=thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess > <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > --- anders_lindman <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless > and > > > being Thoughtless. > > > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as > in > > > being less than > > > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state > where > > > clarity has > > > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we > call > > > thinking and then > > > there is always 100% responsibility in every > action > > > without having to > > > _think_ about being responsible. > > > > > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > > > > > /AL > > > > The door is unlocked. > > > > Lewis > > > Such Thoughtless state would give true freedom I imagine. There would be no fear needed, because in such state one could do no wrong. Even being angry, nasty or simply being a jerk or making a fool of oneself would be no problem at all. There would always be full responsibility in every action; full response-ability. There would be no worry because psychological time in the form thinking would not be needed. Future conscequences would be taken care of automatically - in a way outsourced to life itself - freeing oneself for experiencing the present moment in a richer way and with more clarity. This would, I assume, also bring a total relaxation in body and mind, resulting in true and profound peace. /AL It is no thing and every thing, both and neither. An abiding darkness that is blinding light. It cannot be thought or imagined. Thought, imagination, mind, closes the unlocked door. Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and being Thoughtless. > > > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than > > > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has > > > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then > > > there is always 100% responsibility in every action without having to > > > _think_ about being responsible. > > > > > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > > > > > > be in the present, alert, with compassion. then see for yourself. > > Yes, it would be interesting to see if it is possible. So that > responsibility in the form of thinking is replaced by full > response-ability. these are big words (thoughtless states, samadhi etc). i prefer common sense approaches. someone has sold this idea that being thoughtless is the best thing possible. then do we have thought in the first place? is everything created by thought so bad? compulsive thought is a problem, but thought is a very useful tool. what has gone wrong with us is deeper than thought. assuming thought is the problem is like tying to plug a kitchen leak using ice. our problem is intention. thought is a manifestation of intention. so, work on intention. what is my intention at this moment? fear, insecurity, self-aggrandisement, greed, love, compassion...? slowly it'll become clarified. you'll still be able to think, but the base intention will become generalised love. what lies beyond? who cares? a mystery. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > There is a difference between being thoughtless and being > Thoughtless. > > > > To be thoughtless has a negative connotation, as in being less than > > > > responsible. But being Thoughtless is a state where clarity has > > > > replaced the ordinary noisy mental process we call thinking and then > > > > there is always 100% responsibility in every action without > having to > > > > _think_ about being responsible. > > > > > > > > Is such Thoughtless state possible? > > > > > > > > > > be in the present, alert, with compassion. then see for yourself. > > > > Yes, it would be interesting to see if it is possible. So that > > responsibility in the form of thinking is replaced by full > > response-ability. > > these are big words (thoughtless states, samadhi etc). > > i prefer common sense approaches. > > someone has sold this idea that being thoughtless is the best thing > possible. then do we have thought in the first place? is everything > created by thought so bad? > > compulsive thought is a problem, but thought is a very useful tool. > > what has gone wrong with us is deeper than thought. assuming thought > is the problem is like tying to plug a kitchen leak using ice. our > problem is intention. thought is a manifestation of intention. > > so, work on intention. what is my intention at this moment? fear, > insecurity, self-aggrandisement, greed, love, compassion...? slowly > it'll become clarified. you'll still be able to think, but the base > intention will become generalised love. > > what lies beyond? who cares? a mystery. I suspect thought is just a stepping stone to a higher state where thought is only needed occasionally. A state of true deep peace. The normal common-sense way of thinking is _never_ peaceful in my experience. In fact, I have come to believe that all thinking involving a 'me' happens in a field of fear, in a nervous field of psychological time. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 3/21/05 1:42:25 PM, anders_lindman writes: > > > > Such Thoughtless state would give true freedom I imagine. There would > > be no fear needed, because in such state one could do no wrong. Even > > being angry, nasty or simply being a jerk or making a fool of oneself > > would be no problem at all. There would always be full responsibility > > in every action; full response-ability. There would be no worry > > because psychological time in the form thinking would not be needed. > > Future conscequences would be taken care of automatically - in a way > > outsourced to life itself - freeing oneself for experiencing the > > present moment in a richer way and with more clarity. This would, I > > assume, also bring a total relaxation in body and mind, resulting in > > true and profound peace. > > > > /AL > > > > P: That's exactly so, Al. And you either read that somewhere, or you > have been there somehow and lost it, or you just discovered it. Which is > it? > A combination all these things I guess. I have practiced self-observation for a long time, and the more I observe the more nastiness I can feel inside me. Then there comes a point where the internal suffering can't be tolerated any longer and somehow collapses under its own weight. I hope this suffering with its foundation in fear will continue to collapse in me so that I can feel more and more free. I guess that a total collapse could bring about some form of Thoughtlessness, but I don't know if it is possible or if it will happen to me. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 21, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Pedsie2@a... wrote: > > > > In a message dated 3/21/05 1:42:25 PM, anders_lindman writes: > > > > > > > Such Thoughtless state would give true freedom I imagine. There would > > > be no fear needed, because in such state one could do no wrong. Even > > > being angry, nasty or simply being a jerk or making a fool of oneself > > > would be no problem at all. There would always be full responsibility > > > in every action; full response-ability. There would be no worry > > > because psychological time in the form thinking would not be needed. > > > Future conscequences would be taken care of automatically - in a way > > > outsourced to life itself - freeing oneself for experiencing the > > > present moment in a richer way and with more clarity. This would, I > > > assume, also bring a total relaxation in body and mind, resulting in > > > true and profound peace. > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > P: That's exactly so, Al. And you either read that somewhere, or you > > have been there somehow and lost it, or you just discovered it. > Which is > > it? > > > > A combination all these things I guess. I have practiced > self-observation for a long time, and the more I observe the more > nastiness I can feel inside me. Then there comes a point where the > internal suffering can't be tolerated any longer and somehow collapses > under its own weight. I hope this suffering with its foundation in > fear will continue to collapse in me so that I can feel more and more > free. I guess that a total collapse could bring about some form of > Thoughtlessness, but I don't know if it is possible or if it will > happen to me. > > /AL I knew a man who was obsessed with making his shadow round...... I don't know where he got the idea that that would help him. toombaru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > > these are big words (thoughtless states, samadhi etc). > > > > i prefer common sense approaches. > > > > someone has sold this idea that being thoughtless is the best thing > > possible. then do we have thought in the first place? is everything > > created by thought so bad? > > > > compulsive thought is a problem, but thought is a very useful tool. > > > > what has gone wrong with us is deeper than thought. assuming thought > > is the problem is like tying to plug a kitchen leak using ice. our > > problem is intention. thought is a manifestation of intention. > > > > so, work on intention. what is my intention at this moment? fear, > > insecurity, self-aggrandisement, greed, love, compassion...? slowly > > it'll become clarified. you'll still be able to think, but the base > > intention will become generalised love. > > > > what lies beyond? who cares? a mystery. > > I suspect thought is just a stepping stone to a higher state where > thought is only needed occasionally. A state of true deep peace. The > normal common-sense way of thinking is _never_ peaceful in my > experience. In fact, I have come to believe that all thinking > involving a 'me' happens in a field of fear, in a nervous field of > psychological time. > the marketing dept has sold you this idea that the trance state is your ideal state. a trance cannot be your true nature. your true nature has to manifest here and now, and be useful in normal life. the mind likes to set goals which are not here and now, and better if they cannot be achieved. that lets it go on scheming forever. now you may enjoy a trance once in a while to escape hassles, but a joint may do the same. the dalai lama said that to be happy, you have to be able to give. simple, but profound. " all thinking is fear " - is wrong. thinking is the fruit of intention. the buddha - the great one - spoke hundreds of books out of compassion for the coming generations. once you are in the state of uncaused love, you will not be afraid of thought. it is unlikely you can survive comfortably without logical thought (cause-effect type of patterns and avoiding unwanted results by avoiding their causes), in modern society. even you can in your trance and are " out there " , you still have dependents who are not there yet (een if they are " your dream " as many non-dualists will claim). so compassion drives and you help others who are not there yet. common sense is important. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > > > > these are big words (thoughtless states, samadhi etc). > > > > > > i prefer common sense approaches. > > > > > > someone has sold this idea that being thoughtless is the best thing > > > possible. then do we have thought in the first place? is everything > > > created by thought so bad? > > > > > > compulsive thought is a problem, but thought is a very useful tool. > > > > > > what has gone wrong with us is deeper than thought. assuming thought > > > is the problem is like tying to plug a kitchen leak using ice. our > > > problem is intention. thought is a manifestation of intention. > > > > > > so, work on intention. what is my intention at this moment? fear, > > > insecurity, self-aggrandisement, greed, love, compassion...? slowly > > > it'll become clarified. you'll still be able to think, but the base > > > intention will become generalised love. > > > > > > what lies beyond? who cares? a mystery. > > > > I suspect thought is just a stepping stone to a higher state where > > thought is only needed occasionally. A state of true deep peace. The > > normal common-sense way of thinking is _never_ peaceful in my > > experience. In fact, I have come to believe that all thinking > > involving a 'me' happens in a field of fear, in a nervous field of > > psychological time. > > > > the marketing dept has sold you this idea that the trance state is > your ideal state. a trance cannot be your true nature. your true > nature has to manifest here and now, and be useful in normal life. > > the mind likes to set goals which are not here and now, and better if > they cannot be achieved. that lets it go on scheming forever. > > now you may enjoy a trance once in a while to escape hassles, but a > joint may do the same. > > the dalai lama said that to be happy, you have to be able to give. > simple, but profound. > > " all thinking is fear " - is wrong. thinking is the fruit of intention. > the buddha - the great one - spoke hundreds of books out of compassion > for the coming generations. > > once you are in the state of uncaused love, you will not be afraid of > thought. > > it is unlikely you can survive comfortably without logical thought > (cause-effect type of patterns and avoiding unwanted results by > avoiding their causes), in modern society. even you can in your trance > and are " out there " , you still have dependents who are not there yet > (een if they are " your dream " as many non-dualists will claim). so > compassion drives and you help others who are not there yet. > > common sense is important. Common sense may be important but does it give you peace? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 --- hemantbhai100 <hemantbhai100 wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , > " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , > " hemantbhai100 " > > > > these are big words (thoughtless states, samadhi > etc). > > > > > > i prefer common sense approaches. > > > > > > someone has sold this idea that being > thoughtless is the best thing > > > possible. then do we have thought in the first > place? is everything > > > created by thought so bad? > > > > > > compulsive thought is a problem, but thought is > a very useful tool. > > > > > > what has gone wrong with us is deeper than > thought. assuming thought > > > is the problem is like tying to plug a kitchen > leak using ice. our > > > problem is intention. thought is a manifestation > of intention. > > > > > > so, work on intention. what is my intention at > this moment? fear, > > > insecurity, self-aggrandisement, greed, love, > compassion...? slowly > > > it'll become clarified. you'll still be able to > think, but the base > > > intention will become generalised love. > > > > > > what lies beyond? who cares? a mystery. > > > > I suspect thought is just a stepping stone to a > higher state where > > thought is only needed occasionally. A state of > true deep peace. The > > normal common-sense way of thinking is _never_ > peaceful in my > > experience. In fact, I have come to believe that > all thinking > > involving a 'me' happens in a field of fear, in a > nervous field of > > psychological time. > > > > the marketing dept has sold you this idea that the > trance state is > your ideal state. a trance cannot be your true > nature. your true > nature has to manifest here and now, and be useful > in normal life. > > the mind likes to set goals which are not here and > now, and better if > they cannot be achieved. that lets it go on scheming > forever. > > now you may enjoy a trance once in a while to escape > hassles, but a > joint may do the same. > > the dalai lama said that to be happy, you have to be > able to give. > simple, but profound. > > " all thinking is fear " - is wrong. thinking is the > fruit of intention. > the buddha - the great one - spoke hundreds of books > out of compassion > for the coming generations. > > once you are in the state of uncaused love, you will > not be afraid of > thought. > > it is unlikely you can survive comfortably without > logical thought > (cause-effect type of patterns and avoiding unwanted > results by > avoiding their causes), in modern society. even you > can in your trance > and are " out there " , you still have dependents who > are not there yet > (een if they are " your dream " as many non-dualists > will claim). so > compassion drives and you help others who are not > there yet. > > common sense is important. Dear hemantbhai100, A thoughtless state is not a trance. Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > common sense is important. > > Common sense may be important but does it give you peace? common sense tells you that " all you need is love " . a thoughtless state is another pie in the sky if you think it is peace. common sense does not give you what you want. it tells you what you should, and should not want in spiritual quest. the path to get is another matter because it will vary according to individuals, their past, culture etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > Dear hemantbhai100, > > A thoughtless state is not a trance. > true, yet it is what we understand from these words that is important. the marketing has been thoughtless == trance == samadhi. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > common sense is important. > > > > Common sense may be important but does it give you peace? > > common sense tells you that " all you need is love " . a thoughtless > state is another pie in the sky if you think it is peace. > > common sense does not give you what you want. it tells you what you > should, and should not want in spiritual quest. the path to get is > another matter because it will vary according to individuals, their > past, culture etc. Maybe a thoughtless state cannot bring peace, but 99% (just guessing here) of all people think of themselves as have common sense. Why have they not found peace? Is common sense choice? Or is choice simply conflict between a fictious sense of self and the world? /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > common sense is important. > > > > > > Common sense may be important but does it give you peace? > > > > common sense tells you that " all you need is love " . a thoughtless > > state is another pie in the sky if you think it is peace. > > > > common sense does not give you what you want. it tells you what you > > should, and should not want in spiritual quest. the path to get is > > another matter because it will vary according to individuals, their > > past, culture etc. > > Maybe a thoughtless state cannot bring peace, but 99% (just guessing > here) of all people think of themselves as have common sense. Why have > they not found peace? because they trust someone's opinion that thoughtlessness, or some other state is the key to peace. peace is our true-nature. it is uncaused. if it was caused by something then again one would be in the cycle of fear (if i lose my meditation cushion i'll lose my peace ...). it does get obscured by bad mental habits.... that is understood after one has controlled and then come to peace with the Ox. >Is common sense choice? Or is choice simply common sense and choice are different things. common sense is _very_ hard to define - it has billions of years of evolution. ask any artificial intelligence researcher. choice is choice. you have to go left, or right. you can't go both ways. > conflict between a fictious sense of self and the world? > that there is a fictitious sense of self does not imply that the choice, or effort, or the world are fictitious. see the trap? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 --- hemantbhai100 <hemantbhai100 wrote: > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess > <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear hemantbhai100, > > > > A thoughtless state is not a trance. > > > > true, yet it is what we understand from these words > that is important. > > the marketing has been thoughtless == trance == > samadhi. Here is a description of higher samadhis by Sri Ramana Maharshi. " There are two Nirvikalpas: the internal and the external. In the former the mind completely merges in the inmost Being and is aware of nothing else. This is compared to a lamp protected from wind. But in the latter, although the mind is absorbed in the Self, the sense of the world still prevails, without a reaction from within, and has the calm vastness of waveless ocean. In both the Self is realized in its nakedness and the essence of bliss experienced. When the waveless ocean of the external; and the steady flame of the internal Nirvikalpa (samadhis) are realized as identical, the ultimate goal, Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi is said to have been reached. Nirvikalpa is effortless, whereas Savikalpa is attended with effort " Question: " Is the internal Nirvikalpa absolutely necessary before the attainment of Sahaja? " Bhagavan: " Abiding permanently in any of these samadhis either Savikalpa or Nirvikalpa is Sahaja. What is body-consciousness? It is the insentient body plus consciousness. Both of these must exist in another (more inclusive) consciousness which is absolute and unaffected, and ever-abiding, with or without the body consciousness. What does it then matter whether the body-consciousness is lost or retained, provided one is holding on to that Pure Consciousness? Total absence of body consciousness has the advantage of making Samadhi more intense, although it makes no difference in the knowledge of the Supreme. " Question: " May I have a clear idea Bhagavan of the difference between Savikalpa and Nirvikalpa? " Bhagavan: " Holding on to the Supreme State is Samadhi. When it is with effort due to mental disturbances, it is Savikalpa, when these disturbances are absent, it is Nirvikalpa. remaining permanently in the primal state without effort is Sahaja. Like Nirvikalpa, there is an internal as well as an external Savikalpa, depending whether the disturbing thoughts are from outside or from inside. " Question: " Should all vasanas (mental habits) be completely overcome before Self-Realization takes place, or some may remain for Self Realization to destroy? " Bhagavan: " Vasanas which do not obstruct Self-Realization remain. In the Yoga Vasishta two classes of vasanas are distinguished: those of enjoyment and those of bondage. The former remain even after the Mukti is attained, but the latter are destroyed by it. Attachment is the cause of binding vasanas, but enjoyment without attachment does not bind and continues even in Sahaja. " " Guru Ramana " , Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri Ramanasramam, Tiruvannamalalai, India, 1952. Note: Vasanas are inferred, subtle, elusive, latent, subliminal inclinations, tendencies, patterns and habits leading to action of various types. Craving, grasping, longing for, attachment to vasanas reinforces them in a circular motion; vasana > thought, emotion, desire for an object/thought > object/thought attained (action) > attachment to object/thought > binding to object/thought > vasana reinforced > inclination strengthened > suffering/bondage > vasana > desire for an object/thought > ........ In Buddhism, a similar understanding is given in the from Samyutta Nikaya, Nidana Vagga, XII. Nidana-samyutta -- Paticcasamuppada (dependent co-arising), Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta (Analysis of Dependent Co-arising) [Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu] Dwelling at Savatthi... " Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you. " And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name- & -form. From name- & -form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. " Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. " And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. " And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming. " And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging. " And what is craving? These six are classes of craving: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving. " And what is feeling? These six are classes of feeling: feeling born from eye-contact, feeling born from ear-contact, feeling born from nose-contact, feeling born from tongue-contact, feeling born from body-contact, feeling born from intellect-contact. This is called feeling. " And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact. " And what are the six sense media? These six are sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. These are called the six sense media. " And what is name- & -form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name- & -form. " And what is consciousness? These six are classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. " And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications. " And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance. " Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name- & -form. From the cessation of name- & -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. " For a sutta on passion, craving, clinging, see Atthi Raga Sutta: Where There is Passion http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-064.h\ tml Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 22, 2005 Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " hemantbhai100 " > > <hemantbhai100@h...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > common sense is important. > > > > > > > > Common sense may be important but does it give you peace? > > > > > > common sense tells you that " all you need is love " . a thoughtless > > > state is another pie in the sky if you think it is peace. > > > > > > common sense does not give you what you want. it tells you what you > > > should, and should not want in spiritual quest. the path to get is > > > another matter because it will vary according to individuals, their > > > past, culture etc. > > > > Maybe a thoughtless state cannot bring peace, but 99% (just guessing > > here) of all people think of themselves as have common sense. Why have > > they not found peace? > > because they trust someone's opinion that thoughtlessness, or some > other state is the key to peace. > > peace is our true-nature. it is uncaused. if it was caused by > something then again one would be in the cycle of fear (if i lose my > meditation cushion i'll lose my peace ...). it does get obscured by > bad mental habits.... that is understood after one has controlled and > then come to peace with the Ox. > > >Is common sense choice? Or is choice simply > > common sense and choice are different things. common sense is _very_ > hard to define - it has billions of years of evolution. ask any > artificial intelligence researcher. > > choice is choice. you have to go left, or right. you can't go both ways. > > > conflict between a fictious sense of self and the world? > > > > that there is a fictitious sense of self does not imply that the > choice, or effort, or the world are fictitious. > > see the trap? But for me every kind of choice is a form of conflict. There is simply no peace in the choice-making process, regardless if there is a 'me' making the choice or the choice just happens anyway. I feel there must be a better way to live life than by making choices. Every kind of choice is stupid IMO. It's like don't knowing what to do. If you know what to do, is choice really needed? And a kind of common sense that brings peace? Well, I am the result of billions of years of evolution and my so called common sense is worthless when it comes to making a peaceful living. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
