Guest guest Report post Posted December 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > >You are not trapped in thought...... > > >You are the thought of being trapped...... > > > > Think again... > > If you are the thought (of whatever)... > > then there is no you - no thought - no toombarus... > > > > Because this means there is nobody who could have those thoughts. > > > > But the very fact that you have written those lines is proving you > > wrong. > > It is not I who write.......It is consciousness itself.......using the brain and fingers of this old > zombee....There is no toombaru.........just a meat puppet.......... > ***************************************** Hey old sage! You are in big trouble now!!! Pete and his guys are going to kik your ass!!! Now that you showed your face... I hope it will last this time! They won't like it. Consciousness it self using the brain and fingers. You are just meat? You are in trouble man! ha ha ha! They are going to get you out of the I am state. You can count on them!!! They will fix you! :0x Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > ... > > > Until a shift takes place in which you recognize the now itself. > > > > > > > > Nope...........not gonna happen. > > > > > > t. > > That's what you think, because the thinking mind is afraid of the now. > To the thinking mind, the now appear as utter loneliness and a feeling > of dreadful emptiness. > > /AL ****************************** Hi Al, Yes, all you said above is true. Osho wrote several techniques on how to reach enlightenment. Ones are better than others. Nis Master being a good master told master Nis to abide in the " I am " . This is one and another is " who am I " from Ramana. It works. Another thing, don't believe all the crap you hear. You and You alone need to search for your " self " . The masters are only there to guide you to yourself. That is all. What can they do but to show you " the Way " but you are " the Way " . You are lost because you don't know yourself yet. But when you will know your " Self " you will be free. With some help you can advance in the process and Awakening to your true nature. Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 14, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " kenj02001 " <kenj02001> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " > <dan330033> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I understand from sages is that there is an untouchable > > state > > > > of > > > > > being, where the boundaries between the " me " and the world > > totally > > > > > dissolves. > > > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > > > You mean, you see some absolute boundary functioning > > > > somewhere? > > > > > > > > Where is it, I must be missing it? > > > > > > > > -- Dan > > > > > > No absolute boundary, but my body feels like a boundary, and the > > body > > > is connceted to all my material possessions, relationships, > > memories, > > > knowledge, self-image, e t c. So the " me " feels like a web of > > > relations to 'things', and this personal web is in conflict with > > the > > > larger web called the world. The " me " is struggling with > > the " world " , > > > and that is the boundary. If this boundary would dissolve into > one > > > " me/world " experience, then I would be at peace I imagine. > > > > > > /AL > > > > ** Nope, look again. Look very intensely. In whatever moment, > > it's undivided, unitary, no boundary. Even if it's thought > > in the so-called " next " moment to be split, it's undivided > > in that *very* moment of " conceiving splitness, " and so on. > > > > Only one this-moment. Nothing to add, nothing lacking, > > nothing other-than. > > > > Clue: don't 'think' (speculate) about this--feel it, > > whole-bodily. > > > > Ken > > ***************************** > > I'm impressed don't think or speculate? Tell that to a woman that is > having a baby in an hospital. Hey Madame don't scream. You don't > understand that you are one. And the hurt is an illusion!! You are > not real!! Not to think is the goal. These are just words you are > giving the guy. > > A man lost his wife and children and all his fortune. He was crying > big time. A Nisargadatta web site thought master was passing by and > ask the man what is wrong? The man explained the situation. The very > wise Master said well just don't worry. Life is just like a dream. > It is an illusion. You wife was not real. So the man looking to the > master and " awakened " and said well, I'm Ok now all my problems are > behind me. Thanks a bunch!! No problem replyed the Master. And if > you know someone who is suffering near you just tell him the same > words he will awaken!! Ha ha ha!!!!!!! > > Al, is a thoughts Master already do you guys really " think " you are > going to awaken him with more thinking and more words??? > > Odysseus, ** " reductio ad absurdem. " Or, how about: " use thought instead of being used by it " ? Nuff said? Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > Until a shift takes place in which you recognize the now itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope...........not gonna happen. > > > > > > > > > t. > > > > That's what you think, because the thinking mind is afraid of the now. > > To the thinking mind, the now appear as utter loneliness and a feeling > > of dreadful emptiness. > > > > /AL > > > " Thinking is always 1/200th of a second behind its own concept of " now " > > > > The thinking mind is the source of fear......It is its own emptiness that it fears the > most.......and for good reason. > > t. Fear is not only a result of the thinking mind. Fear is a deep human emotion that can easily control and direct the creation of thoughts. That's why the thinking mind is a puppet in the hands of fear. The thinking mind is perhaps not the source of fear, but a slave to fear. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Stefan " <s.petersilge@c...> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > >We do only what we were meant to do. Help me you could. Trapped am I > >in thought. > > And what you are meant to do the very next moment still now you dont > know. > > S. That's why it's important to align with the vast movement of the present moment and not be an alien to it; not to be a victim struggling with the flow of time. Instead we should realize that we are the flow of time itself. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > Until a shift takes place in which you recognize the now > itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope...........not gonna happen. > > > > > > > > > t. > > > > That's what you think, because the thinking mind is afraid of the > now. > > To the thinking mind, the now appear as utter loneliness and a > feeling > > of dreadful emptiness. > > > > /AL > > ****************************** > > Hi Al, Yes, all you said above is true. Osho wrote several > techniques on how to reach enlightenment. Ones are better than > others. Nis Master being a good master told master Nis to abide in > the " I am " . This is one and another is " who am I " from Ramana. It > works. > > Another thing, don't believe all the crap you hear. You and You > alone need to search for your " self " . The masters are only there to > guide you to yourself. That is all. What can they do but to show > you " the Way " but you are " the Way " . You are lost because you don't > know yourself yet. But when you will know your " Self " you will be > free. With some help you can advance in the process and Awakening to > your true nature. > > Odysseus, I feel that my true self is not fear, yet fear is a very strong force in this world. Maybe one should look at fear with a curious investigation. Fear is valid if one lives according to social conditioning, but is fear valid from a spiritual perspective? Perhaps not. Sages say again and again: a fearless state of being is possible. Using rational logic, we can see the truth of this. The present moment is complete. What is there to fear? What can one be afraid of in this very moment? The future? Yes. The future is fearful to the fragmented and limited human mind. But if we really look at what this future is we see that the future is only a projection. We will never be able to experience the 'real' future. But the human mind is very good at hiding this obvious fact. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " <cptc@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > Until a shift takes place in which you recognize the now > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope...........not gonna happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > > > > > > That's what you think, because the thinking mind is afraid of the now. To the thinking mind, the now appear as utter loneliness and a feeling of dreadful emptiness. > > > > > > /AL > > > > ****************************** > > > > Hi Al, Yes, all you said above is true. Osho wrote several > > techniques on how to reach enlightenment. Ones are better than > > others. Nis Master being a good master told master Nis to abide in > > the " I am " . This is one and another is " who am I " from Ramana. It > > works. > > > > Another thing, don't believe all the crap you hear. You and You > > alone need to search for your " self " . The masters are only there to > > guide you to yourself. That is all. What can they do but to show > > you " the Way " but you are " the Way " . You are lost because you don't > > know yourself yet. But when you will know your " Self " you will be > > free. With some help you can advance in the process and Awakening to > > your true nature. > > > > Odysseus, > > I feel that my true self is not fear, Odysseus: What do you mean above? " I " feels what? Is it fear that sees that fear is not fear? Or is it " You " that feel that your true self is not fear? :0 yet fear is a very strong force > in this world. Maybe one should look at fear with a curious > investigation. Fear is valid if one lives according to social > conditioning, but is fear valid from a spiritual perspective? Perhaps > not. Sages say again and again: a fearless state of being is possible. Odysseus: Of course. But to go there you must know the Self, and Be the Self. Otherwise it is just an intellectual theory. > Using rational logic, we can see the truth of this. The present moment is complete. What is there to fear? What can one be afraid of in this > very moment? The future? Yes. The future is fearful to the fragmented and limited human mind. But if we really look at what this future is we see that the future is only a projection. We will never be able to experience the 'real' future. But the human mind is very good at hiding this obvious fact. Odysseus: Who sees this very moment? the futur, the fear, the limited mind? Who sees the projection? Is it the projection??? :0 This investigation you must do in order to understand yourself. Ramana's " Who am I " . This is sadhana. You cannot reach the Self without doing a sadhana it is not possible. You can " think the Self big time with all the intellectual words, forms, imagined states, etc. But after you still aare bnot the Self, and the guys cry and start saying stupid things as there is " nothing " , There is no Ego, there is no physical death. You know Ego stuff!!! ha ha,. You know what Al! What these guys are telling to you is that you are not scared and that your questioning is false. That you are false. But this is absolutly not true. Your questioning is great and such questioning will bring you to Your " Self " . Isn't that the Ramana's methode! Are you telling me that Ramana is a fake! ha ha ha! Just kidding! The best to you! Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 15, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " toombaru2004 " > <cptc@w...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > > > > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > Until a shift takes place in which you recognize the now > > > itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope...........not gonna happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > t. > > > > > > > > That's what you think, because the thinking mind is afraid of > the now. To the thinking mind, the now appear as utter loneliness > and a feeling of dreadful emptiness. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > ****************************** > > > > > > Hi Al, Yes, all you said above is true. Osho wrote several > > > techniques on how to reach enlightenment. Ones are better than > > > others. Nis Master being a good master told master Nis to abide > in > > > the " I am " . This is one and another is " who am I " from Ramana. > It > > > works. > > > > > > Another thing, don't believe all the crap you hear. You and You > > > alone need to search for your " self " . The masters are only there > to > > > guide you to yourself. That is all. What can they do but to show > > > you " the Way " but you are " the Way " . You are lost because you > don't > > > know yourself yet. But when you will know your " Self " you will > be > > > free. With some help you can advance in the process and > Awakening to > > > your true nature. > > > > > > Odysseus, > > > > I feel that my true self is not fear, > > Odysseus: What do you mean above? " I " feels what? Is it fear that > sees that fear is not fear? Or is it " You " that feel that your true > self is not fear? :0 When I feel I need to take a piss, then I feel I need to take a piss. The piss (fear) is in me at that time. One way of releaving oneself of fear is to get angry. But that is no a true relief. Fear is still there beneath the anger. Another way is to get fearful, and stay fearful until fear itself burns up. > > yet fear is a very strong force > > in this world. Maybe one should look at fear with a curious > > investigation. Fear is valid if one lives according to social > > conditioning, but is fear valid from a spiritual perspective? > Perhaps > > not. Sages say again and again: a fearless state of being is > possible. > > Odysseus: Of course. But to go there you must know the Self, and Be > the Self. Otherwise it is just an intellectual theory. This is where it all gets spooky for the thinking mind: the Self is the world. > > > Using rational logic, we can see the truth of this. The present > moment is complete. What is there to fear? What can one be afraid of > in this > > very moment? The future? Yes. The future is fearful to the > fragmented and limited human mind. But if we really look at what > this future is we see that the future is only a projection. We will > never be able to experience the 'real' future. But the human mind is > very good at hiding this obvious fact. > > Odysseus: Who sees this very moment? the futur, the fear, the > limited mind? Who sees the projection? Is it the projection??? :0 As soon as we say 'who' there is already a division. And if we say the 'One' there is also division, but oneness is at least pointing to non-separation. > > This investigation you must do in order to understand yourself. > Ramana's " Who am I " . This is sadhana. You cannot reach the Self > without doing a sadhana it is not possible. How about Ramana himself, did he need sadhana? No. He didn't. At least this is what I have heard. > You can " think the Self > big time with all the intellectual words, forms, imagined states, > etc. But after you still aare bnot the Self, and the guys cry and > start saying stupid things as there is " nothing " , There is no Ego, > there is no physical death. You know Ego stuff!!! ha ha,. > You know what Al! What these guys are telling to you is that you are > not scared and that your questioning is false. That you are false. > But this is absolutly not true. Your questioning is great and such > questioning will bring you to Your " Self " . Isn't that the Ramana's > methode! Are you telling me that Ramana is a fake! ha ha ha! Just > kidding! > > The best to you! > Odysseus, I cannot say if Ramana is a fake or not. When I firmly rest in the Self, then perhaps I will know. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 16, 2004 > I cannot say if Ramana is a fake or not. When I firmly rest in the > Self, then perhaps I will know. > > /AL he is not a fake. And he is the exception not the rule! Even master Nis had to work hard for three years!!! Osho said he spent several lives to finally achieve enlightenment. Don't make the mistake to think that Ramana sudden enlightenment arrived without sadhana. Surely as Osho he achieved the final goal in this life time. Enlightement is no accident. It is not by chance that you find it. One cannot hope to become rich waiting to find a box on the street by accident with 1 000 000$ inside, just like that! Oh It can happen! But how many lives are you going to wait? SMILESSS Odyseeus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > I cannot say if Ramana is a fake or not. When I firmly rest in the > > Self, then perhaps I will know. > > > > /AL > > he is not a fake. And he is the exception not the rule! Even master > Nis had to work hard for three years!!! Osho said he spent several > lives to finally achieve enlightenment. Don't make the mistake to > think that Ramana sudden enlightenment arrived without sadhana. > Surely as Osho he achieved the final goal in this life time. > Enlightement is no accident. It is not by chance that you find it. > One cannot hope to become rich waiting to find a box on the street > by accident with 1 000 000$ inside, just like that! Oh It can > happen! But how many lives are you going to wait? SMILESSS > > Odyseeus, A: Maybe the state of waiting has to go for enlightenment to happen. We are always waiting for the next moment. Waiting is virtually always a painful experience. Even when we are not waiting consciously, we are waiting subconsciously. The ultimate form of this is the waiting for our own death. Somewhere, often hidden, there is always the waiting for our death to finally happen. Then there are lesser forms of waiting, such as waiting for an eventual accident, getting ill, to become older, happier, more peaceful, and more fulfilled materially, socially, emotionally, bodily, and spiritually. Other forms of waiting are: waiting for the bus, in a traffic jam, in an elevator, for lunch, dinner, breakfast next morning... Waiting for the news on TV, for the commercial break on TV to end, for the phone to ring, for our next meeting with friends, for our next weekend, holiday or vacation. Waiting for christmas, for monday's work at the office... Even when we are waiting for something pleasurable, the state of waiting itself is most often not pleasure. What is waiting? I would say that waiting is suffering; boring, stressful or frightening. Why are we waiting? Because the present moment is passing us by. The feeling of time passing is a nervous energy field inside (and perhaps even around) the entire human body. So we are always restless. Even when we experience what we call a peaceful moment, there is no profoundly deep and total sense of peace. We are constantly projecting a 'future me' and this projection exists within a field of fear. The future me needs to be protected at all time. The future me must not: make a fool of itself, do something stupid in the eyes of others, become physically or emotionally hurt, become rejected by society (including family and friends), lose financial, material or social possessions (such as job and reputation). And on and on... We feel that we must have constant control over this future me. In order to protect the future me we must: ... fill in the blank. What we don't see is that this future me can never be made completely secure. We will never in this way feel safe. What to do in order to find true peace? First we must understand that this 'future me' projection will never feel safe if we believe that the projection is who we are. Then we must understand that without this identification with the projection the present moment is fine. It is not only fine, it is completely safe. The future me is not merely a simple thought form; it is a creation of vast biological inheritence and social conditioning. A thousand years of psychotherapy would probably only scratch the surface of what this 'future me' is. Also, lingering physical pain is related to psychological suffering/suppression which in turn are related to the future me. So only an intellectual understanding of what the future me is will not bring true peace, because the state of unease, including waiting, is much deeper than the thinking process which is only a tip of an iceberg. The chance is even that suffering will increase because deep body/mind contractions are being revealed and comes up to the surface in order to become burned up in the field of present-moment awareness. Now we can understand why waiting is painful. The 'future me' and the state of waiting are directly related. The future me _is_ waiting. And since a personal identification with the future me produces a state of fear because of the felt need for protection which cannot fully be achieved, never be completed, the state of waiting is a seed of suffering. The future me is the projected image of ourselves that we want to become real and it also contains that which we don't want to happen. This makes us experience the world with narrow, limited and strongly colored glasses. In every moment, that which does not suit our agenda, that which is not accepted, not compatible with our narrow view, becomes a state of conflict/rejection. These glasses makes us treat the now as something to quickly get rid of, to pass by, so that we can experience the 'future me' because that is the only thing we see thru the glasses. These are the Waiting Glasses. Throw them off - NOW! /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > > > > I cannot say if Ramana is a fake or not. When I firmly rest in the > > > Self, then perhaps I will know. > > > > > > /AL > > > > he is not a fake. And he is the exception not the rule! Even master > > Nis had to work hard for three years!!! Osho said he spent several > > lives to finally achieve enlightenment. Don't make the mistake to > > think that Ramana sudden enlightenment arrived without sadhana. > > Surely as Osho he achieved the final goal in this life time. > > Enlightement is no accident. It is not by chance that you find it. > > One cannot hope to become rich waiting to find a box on the street > > by accident with 1 000 000$ inside, just like that! Oh It can > > happen! But how many lives are you going to wait? SMILESSS > > > > Odyseeus, > > A: Maybe the state of waiting has to go for enlightenment to happen. > > We are always waiting for the next moment. Waiting is virtually always > a painful experience. Even when we are not waiting consciously, we are > waiting subconsciously. The ultimate form of this is the waiting for > our own death. Somewhere, often hidden, there is always the waiting > for our death to finally happen. Then there are lesser forms of > waiting, such as waiting for an eventual accident, getting ill, to > become older, happier, more peaceful, and more fulfilled materially, > socially, emotionally, bodily, and spiritually. Other forms of waiting > are: waiting for the bus, in a traffic jam, in an elevator, for lunch, > dinner, breakfast next morning... Waiting for the news on TV, for the > commercial break on TV to end, for the phone to ring, for our next > meeting with friends, for our next weekend, holiday or vacation. > Waiting for christmas, for monday's work at the office... Even when we > are waiting for something pleasurable, the state of waiting itself is > most often not pleasure. > > What is waiting? I would say that waiting is suffering; boring, > stressful or frightening. Why are we waiting? Because the present > moment is passing us by. The feeling of time passing is a nervous > energy field inside (and perhaps even around) the entire human body. > So we are always restless. Even when we experience what we call a > peaceful moment, there is no profoundly deep and total sense of peace. > We are constantly projecting a 'future me' and this projection exists > within a field of fear. The future me needs to be protected at all > time. The future me must not: make a fool of itself, do something > stupid in the eyes of others, become physically or emotionally hurt, > become rejected by society (including family and friends), lose > financial, material or social possessions (such as job and > reputation). And on and on... We feel that we must have constant > control over this future me. In order to protect the future me we > must: ... fill in the blank. What we don't see is that this future me > can never be made completely secure. We will never in this way feel safe. > > What to do in order to find true peace? First we must understand that > this 'future me' projection will never feel safe if we believe that > the projection is who we are. Then we must understand that without > this identification with the projection the present moment is fine. It > is not only fine, it is completely safe. The future me is not merely a > simple thought form; it is a creation of vast biological inheritence > and social conditioning. A thousand years of psychotherapy would > probably only scratch the surface of what this 'future me' is. Also, > lingering physical pain is related to psychological > suffering/suppression which in turn are related to the future me. So > only an intellectual understanding of what the future me is will not > bring true peace, because the state of unease, including waiting, is > much deeper than the thinking process which is only a tip of an > iceberg. The chance is even that suffering will increase because deep > body/mind contractions are being revealed and comes up to the surface > in order to become burned up in the field of present-moment awareness. > > Now we can understand why waiting is painful. The 'future me' and the > state of waiting are directly related. The future me _is_ waiting. And > since a personal identification with the future me produces a state of > fear because of the felt need for protection which cannot fully be > achieved, never be completed, the state of waiting is a seed of > suffering. The future me is the projected image of ourselves that we > want to become real and it also contains that which we don't want to > happen. This makes us experience the world with narrow, limited and > strongly colored glasses. In every moment, that which does not suit > our agenda, that which is not accepted, not compatible with our narrow > view, becomes a state of conflict/rejection. These glasses makes us > treat the now as something to quickly get rid of, to pass by, so that > we can experience the 'future me' because that is the only thing we > see thru the glasses. These are the Waiting Glasses. Throw them off - > NOW! > > /AL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Waiting, in all its various forms, is one of the countless expectations and/or anticipations that self-will produces. Waiting, like all self-willed expectations, are self-demands (seeking) requiring fulfillment. Lack of fufillment leads to anxiety (before the outcome) and disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other bodily emotions at the moment " waiting " is clearly not fulfilled. Fulfillment as expected (demanded, sought after) at the moment of outcome leads to elation and happiness and other transitory emotions. Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 16, 2004 > we can experience the 'future me' because that is the only thing we > see thru the glasses. These are the Waiting Glasses. Throw them off - > NOW! > > /AL ******************************* Have you??? :0 Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > > > > I cannot say if Ramana is a fake or not. When I firmly rest in the > > > Self, then perhaps I will know. > > > > > > /AL > > > > he is not a fake. And he is the exception not the rule! Even master > > Nis had to work hard for three years!!! Osho said he spent several > > lives to finally achieve enlightenment. Don't make the mistake to > > think that Ramana sudden enlightenment arrived without sadhana. > > Surely as Osho he achieved the final goal in this life time. > > Enlightement is no accident. It is not by chance that you find it. > > One cannot hope to become rich waiting to find a box on the street > > by accident with 1 000 000$ inside, just like that! Oh It can > > happen! But how many lives are you going to wait? SMILESSS > > > > Odyseeus, > > A: Maybe the state of waiting has to go for enlightenment to happen. > > We are always waiting for the next moment. Waiting is virtually always > a painful experience. Even when we are not waiting consciously, we are > waiting subconsciously. The ultimate form of this is the waiting for > our own death. Somewhere, often hidden, there is always the waiting > for our death to finally happen. Then there are lesser forms of > waiting, such as waiting for an eventual accident, getting ill, to > become older, happier, more peaceful, and more fulfilled materially, > socially, emotionally, bodily, and spiritually. Other forms of waiting > are: waiting for the bus, in a traffic jam, in an elevator, for lunch, > dinner, breakfast next morning... Waiting for the news on TV, for the > commercial break on TV to end, for the phone to ring, for our next > meeting with friends, for our next weekend, holiday or vacation. > Waiting for christmas, for monday's work at the office... Even when we > are waiting for something pleasurable, the state of waiting itself is > most often not pleasure. > > What is waiting? I would say that waiting is suffering; boring, > stressful or frightening. Why are we waiting? Because the present > moment is passing us by. The feeling of time passing is a nervous > energy field inside (and perhaps even around) the entire human body. > So we are always restless. Even when we experience what we call a > peaceful moment, there is no profoundly deep and total sense of peace. > We are constantly projecting a 'future me' and this projection exists > within a field of fear. The future me needs to be protected at all > time. The future me must not: make a fool of itself, do something > stupid in the eyes of others, become physically or emotionally hurt, > become rejected by society (including family and friends), lose > financial, material or social possessions (such as job and > reputation). And on and on... We feel that we must have constant > control over this future me. In order to protect the future me we > must: ... fill in the blank. What we don't see is that this future me > can never be made completely secure. We will never in this way feel safe. > > What to do in order to find true peace? First we must understand that > this 'future me' projection will never feel safe if we believe that > the projection is who we are. Then we must understand that without > this identification with the projection the present moment is fine. It > is not only fine, it is completely safe. The future me is not merely a > simple thought form; it is a creation of vast biological inheritence > and social conditioning. A thousand years of psychotherapy would > probably only scratch the surface of what this 'future me' is. Also, > lingering physical pain is related to psychological > suffering/suppression which in turn are related to the future me. So > only an intellectual understanding of what the future me is will not > bring true peace, because the state of unease, including waiting, is > much deeper than the thinking process which is only a tip of an > iceberg. The chance is even that suffering will increase because deep > body/mind contractions are being revealed and comes up to the surface > in order to become burned up in the field of present-moment awareness. > > Now we can understand why waiting is painful. The 'future me' and the > state of waiting are directly related. The future me _is_ waiting. And > since a personal identification with the future me produces a state of > fear because of the felt need for protection which cannot fully be > achieved, never be completed, the state of waiting is a seed of > suffering. The future me is the projected image of ourselves that we > want to become real and it also contains that which we don't want to > happen. This makes us experience the world with narrow, limited and > strongly colored glasses. In every moment, that which does not suit > our agenda, that which is not accepted, not compatible with our narrow > view, becomes a state of conflict/rejection. These glasses makes us > treat the now as something to quickly get rid of, to pass by, so that > we can experience the 'future me' because that is the only thing we > see thru the glasses. These are the Waiting Glasses. Throw them off - > NOW! > > /AL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Adding two cents worth. Waiting is a self-willed expectation, a demand, an anticipation for some future outcome. When it is fulfilled, the bodily emotions of happiness and elation and delight emerge. When it is denied by a contradictory outcome, disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other transitory emotions may emerge. Anxiety emerges when the expected outcome appears not to be forthcoming. Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 16, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > > > > I cannot say if Ramana is a fake or not. When I firmly rest in the > > > Self, then perhaps I will know. > > > > > > /AL > > > > he is not a fake. And he is the exception not the rule! Even master > > Nis had to work hard for three years!!! Osho said he spent several > > lives to finally achieve enlightenment. Don't make the mistake to > > think that Ramana sudden enlightenment arrived without sadhana. > > Surely as Osho he achieved the final goal in this life time. > > Enlightement is no accident. It is not by chance that you find it. > > One cannot hope to become rich waiting to find a box on the street > > by accident with 1 000 000$ inside, just like that! Oh It can > > happen! But how many lives are you going to wait? SMILESSS > > > > Odyseeus, > > A: Maybe the state of waiting has to go for enlightenment to happen. > > We are always waiting for the next moment. Waiting is virtually always > a painful experience. Even when we are not waiting consciously, we are > waiting subconsciously. The ultimate form of this is the waiting for > our own death. Somewhere, often hidden, there is always the waiting > for our death to finally happen. Then there are lesser forms of > waiting, such as waiting for an eventual accident, getting ill, to > become older, happier, more peaceful, and more fulfilled materially, > socially, emotionally, bodily, and spiritually. Other forms of waiting > are: waiting for the bus, in a traffic jam, in an elevator, for lunch, > dinner, breakfast next morning... Waiting for the news on TV, for the > commercial break on TV to end, for the phone to ring, for our next > meeting with friends, for our next weekend, holiday or vacation. > Waiting for christmas, for monday's work at the office... Even when we > are waiting for something pleasurable, the state of waiting itself is > most often not pleasure. > > What is waiting? I would say that waiting is suffering; boring, > stressful or frightening. Why are we waiting? Because the present > moment is passing us by. The feeling of time passing is a nervous > energy field inside (and perhaps even around) the entire human body. > So we are always restless. Even when we experience what we call a > peaceful moment, there is no profoundly deep and total sense of peace. > We are constantly projecting a 'future me' and this projection exists > within a field of fear. The future me needs to be protected at all > time. The future me must not: make a fool of itself, do something > stupid in the eyes of others, become physically or emotionally hurt, > become rejected by society (including family and friends), lose > financial, material or social possessions (such as job and > reputation). And on and on... We feel that we must have constant > control over this future me. In order to protect the future me we > must: ... fill in the blank. What we don't see is that this future me > can never be made completely secure. We will never in this way feel safe. > > What to do in order to find true peace? First we must understand that > this 'future me' projection will never feel safe if we believe that > the projection is who we are. Then we must understand that without > this identification with the projection the present moment is fine. It > is not only fine, it is completely safe. The future me is not merely a > simple thought form; it is a creation of vast biological inheritence > and social conditioning. A thousand years of psychotherapy would > probably only scratch the surface of what this 'future me' is. Also, > lingering physical pain is related to psychological > suffering/suppression which in turn are related to the future me. So > only an intellectual understanding of what the future me is will not > bring true peace, because the state of unease, including waiting, is > much deeper than the thinking process which is only a tip of an > iceberg. The chance is even that suffering will increase because deep > body/mind contractions are being revealed and comes up to the surface > in order to become burned up in the field of present-moment awareness. > > Now we can understand why waiting is painful. The 'future me' and the > state of waiting are directly related. The future me _is_ waiting. And > since a personal identification with the future me produces a state of > fear because of the felt need for protection which cannot fully be > achieved, never be completed, the state of waiting is a seed of > suffering. The future me is the projected image of ourselves that we > want to become real and it also contains that which we don't want to > happen. This makes us experience the world with narrow, limited and > strongly colored glasses. In every moment, that which does not suit > our agenda, that which is not accepted, not compatible with our narrow > view, becomes a state of conflict/rejection. These glasses makes us > treat the now as something to quickly get rid of, to pass by, so that > we can experience the 'future me' because that is the only thing we > see thru the glasses. These are the Waiting Glasses. Throw them off - > NOW! > > /AL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Adding two cents worth. Waiting is a self-willed expectation, a demand, an anticipation for some future outcome. When it is fulfilled, the bodily emotions of happiness and elation and delight emerge. When it is denied by a contradictory outcome, disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other transitory emotions may emerge. Anxiety emerges when the expected outcome appears not to be forthcoming. Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > we can experience the 'future me' because that is the only thing we > > see thru the glasses. These are the Waiting Glasses. Throw them > off - > > NOW! > > > > /AL > > ******************************* > > Have you??? :0 > > Odysseus, It will take some time to take them off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " Lewis Burgess " <lbb10@c...> wrote: > .... > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Waiting, in all its various forms, is one of the countless > expectations and/or anticipations that self-will produces. > > Waiting, like all self-willed expectations, are self-demands (seeking) > requiring fulfillment. Lack of fufillment leads to anxiety (before the > outcome) and disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other bodily > emotions at the moment " waiting " is clearly not fulfilled. Fulfillment > as expected (demanded, sought after) at the moment of outcome leads to > elation and happiness and other transitory emotions. > > Lewis Hi Lewis, Yes, waiting is also a form of seeking, a narrow focusing on some goal/goals in the future. Waiting is also a form of limited, narrow expectation or anticipation. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > .... > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Adding two cents worth. > > Waiting is a self-willed expectation, a demand, an anticipation for some > future outcome. > > When it is fulfilled, the bodily emotions of happiness and elation and > delight emerge. When it is denied by a contradictory outcome, > disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other transitory emotions may > emerge. Anxiety emerges when the expected outcome appears not to be > forthcoming. > > Lewis I have found that happiness comes from surprises and unexpected events in life more often than from anticipation or personal demand. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 anders_lindman wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > ... > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Adding two cents worth. > > > > Waiting is a self-willed expectation, a demand, an anticipation for > some > > future outcome. > > > > When it is fulfilled, the bodily emotions of happiness and elation and > > delight emerge. When it is denied by a contradictory outcome, > > disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other transitory emotions may > > emerge. Anxiety emerges when the expected outcome appears not to be > > forthcoming. > > > > Lewis > > I have found that happiness comes from surprises and unexpected events > in life more often than from anticipation or personal demand. > > /AL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Anders, Do you experience happiness as a bodily emotion? What is your experience of happiness? Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > > > > we can experience the 'future me' because that is the only thing we > > > see thru the glasses. These are the Waiting Glasses. Throw them > > off - > > > NOW! > > > > > > /AL > > > > ******************************* > > > > Have you??? :0 > > > > Odysseus, > > It will take some time to take them off. ********************************** Time does not exist! Do you wish to keep those glasses forever!! :0) Odysseus, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > anders_lindman wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > ... > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Adding two cents worth. > > > > > > Waiting is a self-willed expectation, a demand, an anticipation for > > some > > > future outcome. > > > > > > When it is fulfilled, the bodily emotions of happiness and elation and > > > delight emerge. When it is denied by a contradictory outcome, > > > disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other transitory emotions may > > > emerge. Anxiety emerges when the expected outcome appears not to be > > > forthcoming. > > > > > > Lewis > > > > I have found that happiness comes from surprises and unexpected events > > in life more often than from anticipation or personal demand. > > > > /AL > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Hi Anders, > > Do you experience happiness as a bodily emotion? What is your experience > of happiness? > > Lewis What I call happiness is something felt in both body and mind. But this happiness can be a shallow thing and often is in my case. True joy is the profound feeling of complete freedom, peace and clarity. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , " ilikezen2004 " > > <ilikezen2004> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > we can experience the 'future me' because that is the only > thing we > > > > see thru the glasses. These are the Waiting Glasses. Throw > them > > > off - > > > > NOW! > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > ******************************* > > > > > > Have you??? :0 > > > > > > Odysseus, > > > > It will take some time to take them off. > ********************************** > > Time does not exist! Do you wish to keep those glasses forever!! :0) > > Odysseus, I guess you are right. I will take them off.....now..... WOW! Clarity at last! )) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 anders_lindman wrote: > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > anders_lindman wrote: > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > ... > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Adding two cents worth. > > > > > > > > Waiting is a self-willed expectation, a demand, an anticipation for > > > some > > > > future outcome. > > > > > > > > When it is fulfilled, the bodily emotions of happiness and > elation and > > > > delight emerge. When it is denied by a contradictory outcome, > > > > disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other transitory > emotions may > > > > emerge. Anxiety emerges when the expected outcome appears not to be > > > > forthcoming. > > > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > I have found that happiness comes from surprises and unexpected events > > > in life more often than from anticipation or personal demand. > > > > > > /AL > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > Do you experience happiness as a bodily emotion? What is your > experience > > of happiness? > > > > Lewis > > What I call happiness is something felt in both body and mind. But > this happiness can be a shallow thing and often is in my case. True > joy is the profound feeling of complete freedom, peace and clarity. > > /AL ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ditto. In experience, emotions appear naturally integrated with both mind and body with mind generating images and conceptualizations that naturally affect bodily systems producing various sensations that are interpreted by mind while affecting its operation and the continuation and further production of forms and sensations. All may witness the rise and cycling of happiness or anger or disappointment or hatred....in the mind and body. Experience teaches that a feeling of calmness or peace or freedom or clarity is transitory if self-maintained through various disciplines, that is, through self-directed effort to eliminate or transform those forms which give rise to certain emotions that emerge above or below some self-set mind and body state/sensation or image of what is peace. For example, peace could equal an image of a placid surface of a pond with crystal clear water. Happiness could be having one's favorite fish or new exciting, unexpected fish happily swimming within its clear waters. Anger could equal a bunch of rocks thrown in from the outside disturbing the ponds' surface, frightening and hurting the fish and muddying the waters. Anders, is the profound feeling of complete freedom, peace and clarity mentioned transitory? Can a feeling (a mind/body product) be anything other than transitory, fleeting? (Transitory here does not mean shallow or any other valuation). Lewis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > anders_lindman wrote: > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > anders_lindman wrote: > > > > > > > > Nisargadatta , Lewis Burgess <lbb10@c...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > Adding two cents worth. > > > > > > > > > > Waiting is a self-willed expectation, a demand, an anticipation for > > > > some > > > > > future outcome. > > > > > > > > > > When it is fulfilled, the bodily emotions of happiness and > > elation and > > > > > delight emerge. When it is denied by a contradictory outcome, > > > > > disappointment, sadness, fear, anger and other transitory > > emotions may > > > > > emerge. Anxiety emerges when the expected outcome appears not to be > > > > > forthcoming. > > > > > > > > > > Lewis > > > > > > > > I have found that happiness comes from surprises and unexpected events > > > > in life more often than from anticipation or personal demand. > > > > > > > > /AL > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Hi Anders, > > > > > > Do you experience happiness as a bodily emotion? What is your > > experience > > > of happiness? > > > > > > Lewis > > > > What I call happiness is something felt in both body and mind. But > > this happiness can be a shallow thing and often is in my case. True > > joy is the profound feeling of complete freedom, peace and clarity. > > > > /AL > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Ditto. In experience, emotions appear naturally integrated with both > mind and body with mind generating images and conceptualizations that > naturally affect bodily systems producing various sensations that are > interpreted by mind while affecting its operation and the continuation > and further production of forms and sensations. All may witness the rise > and cycling of happiness or anger or disappointment or hatred....in the > mind and body. > > Experience teaches that a feeling of calmness or peace or freedom or > clarity is transitory if self-maintained through various disciplines, > that is, through self-directed effort to eliminate or transform those > forms which give rise to certain emotions that emerge above or below > some self-set mind and body state/sensation or image of what is peace. > > For example, peace could equal an image of a placid surface of a pond > with crystal clear water. Happiness could be having one's favorite fish > or new exciting, unexpected fish happily swimming within its clear > waters. Anger could equal a bunch of rocks thrown in from the outside > disturbing the ponds' surface, frightening and hurting the fish and > muddying the waters. > > Anders, is the profound feeling of complete freedom, peace and clarity > mentioned transitory? Can a feeling (a mind/body product) be anything > other than transitory, fleeting? (Transitory here does not mean shallow > or any other valuation). > > Lewis The state of being aware is constant. In the state of awareness, which in itself is clear, there should as I see it, at least theoretically, be possible to experience freedom, clarity and peace as a normal state of being. I have only seen fleeting glimpses of radical freedom and peace, but I don't see why such states could not become the ordinary way of experiencing life. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " <anders_lindman> wrote: > > The state of being aware is constant. In the state of awareness, which > in itself is clear, there should as I see it, at least theoretically, > be possible to experience freedom, clarity and peace as a normal state > of being. I have only seen fleeting glimpses of radical freedom and > peace, but I don't see why such states could not become the ordinary > way of experiencing life. > > /AL How can this which is undivided, not partialized, be seen as a " glimpse " ? .... when a glimpse by definition is a partial seeing that begins and ends? Whatever you glimpsed, and remember having experienced, is a partial truth, one experience among many. Whatever it was, wasn't this -- which doesn't come, nor go, nor remain the same, which can't be found by accessing memories of experience. How can you discuss radical freedom as theoretical? Do you think a theory can in any way represent this imageless truth? Apparently, you still mistake this truth as a state of being which you will enter at some point. You haven't confronted the bankruptcy of the position of self, which enters and leaves states which affect it, while it remains the same. And what I'm saying is nothing personal to you, Anders. At leat you are forthcoming and honest about your experience. What's really hard to believe, is all the people thinking they understand freedom, distorting their experience to try to make it seem like a revelation -- when all they have is a new self-image to present to the world. Truth is not a self-image. And what's sad is the self-imposed bondage of holding one's images as truth, and failing to be clear on this imageless being right before you now. -- Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 17, 2004 Nisargadatta , " dan330033 " <dan330033> wrote: > > Nisargadatta , " anders_lindman " > <anders_lindman> wrote: > > > > > The state of being aware is constant. In the state of awareness, > which > > in itself is clear, there should as I see it, at least > theoretically, > > be possible to experience freedom, clarity and peace as a normal > state > > of being. I have only seen fleeting glimpses of radical freedom and > > peace, but I don't see why such states could not become the > ordinary > > way of experiencing life. > > > > /AL > > How can this which is undivided, not partialized, be > seen as a " glimpse " ? > > ... when a glimpse by definition is a partial seeing that > begins and ends? > > Whatever you glimpsed, and remember having experienced, > is a partial truth, one experience among many. > > Whatever it was, wasn't this -- which doesn't > come, nor go, nor remain the same, which can't > be found by accessing memories of experience. > > How can you discuss radical freedom as theoretical? > > Do you think a theory can in any way represent this > imageless truth? > > Apparently, you still mistake this truth as a state of being > which you will enter at some point. > > You haven't confronted the bankruptcy of the position > of self, which enters and leaves states which affect it, > while it remains the same. > > And what I'm saying is nothing personal to you, Anders. At leat > you are forthcoming and honest about your experience. > What's really hard to believe, is all the people thinking > they understand freedom, distorting their experience > to try to make it seem like a revelation -- > when all they have is a new > self-image to present to the world. > > Truth is not a self-image. > > And what's sad is the self-imposed bondage of holding > one's images as truth, and failing to be clear on > this imageless being right before you now. > > -- Dan Yes. Memory of an experience is always something fragmented. True radical freedom must be something that is not really an experience, yet experienced as something different than bondage and fear. I have an idea of what radical freedom is, I somehow know what it is. /AL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
