Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 > A huge can of worms has been opened and needs > to be dealt with. Are you serious? For goodness sake, Alton, editors accept and reject material everyday, and they frequently change their minds. This happens a hundred thousand times a day at every website, newspaper, and magazine on the planet. This isn't a can of worms ... it's publishing. Dear Rob: It fine for an editor to accept or reject material and even change their mind after they said they would accept it, but you published Alak's rejection right here on this forum. That is what I think was unfair. So, if I am interested in finding out why you changed course I will contact you when I get back. Note: This claim of unfairness is implanted right in my conditioned consciousness, otherwise it would not have stirred me up. Love, Alton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Dear Rob: I was only referring to where I read in one of the books that Ramana when asked what that experience of the Self was about, said that he would not say because it may be different with each individual. This is not an exact quote, but a paraphrase. You seem to have notated and have at the touch of your keyboard exact quotes, but evidently I am too Piscean to be so organized and my computer has crashed 4 times in the past years and I did not back up everything correctly. Love, Alton Dear Alton, > Did not he say that and that is why he did not > give more information about what happens. Can I ask you a question before I answer yours? Where does this idea come from that Sri Ramana didn't give information about things? People say this frequently in these mail groups. It's not true. He said all kinds of things about all kinds of topics. He talked quite a bit about jnana, about how his state felt, about the process of realization ... etc. etc. Sri Ramanasramam publishes over a hundred books ... you might be surprised at what is contained in some of them. Ramana defined realization as a permanent dissolution of the I-thought in the heart center. According to him, it only happens once. Either it happened in a given individual or it didn't. Everybody who is realized is equally realized. There are no shades of realization. He said that often, there is a process leading up to this event in which people practice staying in nirvikalpa samadhi for longer and longer periods of time. He described it this way: "Nirvikalpa is chit -- effortless, formless consciousness. Where does the terror come in, and where is the mystery in being oneself? To some people whose minds have become ripe from a long practice in the past, nirvikalpa comes suddenly as a flood, but to others it comes in the course of their spiritual practice, a practice which slowly wears down the obstructing thoughts and reveals the screen of pure awareness 'I-I'. Further practice renders the screen permanently exposed. This is Self-Realization, mukti [liberation], or sahaja samadhi [natural samadhi], the natural, effortless state." > The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and > the capacity for more bliss. Ramana experienced so much > bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him. He said he wasn't in bliss. He said that his state was one of perfect peace, not bliss. For example, he said: "In samadhi itself there is perfect peace. Ecstasy comes when the mind revives at the end of samadhi, with the remembrance of the peace of samadhi. In devotion the ecstasy comes first. It is manifested by tears of joy, hair standing on end and vocal stumbling. When the ego finally dies and the sahaja [i.e. realization] is won, these symptoms and the ecstasies cease." (Both quotes in this email from Be As You Are, page 161) Sri Ramana didn't distinguish enlightenment from realization. > If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking > up you time. It only took a couple of minutes. I was joking the other day about charging for homework. I like to answer these questions because it keeps my memory fresh. I've pretty much stopped reading these books, and I'll forget them soon unless I rummage through them occasionally. Best regards, Rob - ESSENTIAL I Realization Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:02 PM Re: Re: Hello I am new here Dear Rob: From where I am at I cant say whether this is right on or just hearsay. If we don't get to that Realization, then all we read may or may not be true, as it is all hearsay. So seekers have to BELIEVE so that they can progress on any particular path. Right now I still believe that Realization is on a sliding scale and so is Enlightenment. If that were not true than Ramana would not have said that there may be differences in what is experienced. Did not he say that and that is why he did not give more information about what happens? The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and the capacity for more bliss. Ramana experienced so much bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him. If you disagree I will have to reread the parts where that was mentioned. If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking up you time. ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 > you published Alak's rejection right here on this forum. > That is what I think was unfair. That's not true. Alak (Ganga) revealed it here. It was her decision to make it public, not mine. After she mentioned it and gave a false explanation for it, I corrected the false part of her statement. I would never have mentioned it here, except for the fact that she brought it up. > Note: This claim of unfairness is implanted right in my > conditioned consciousness, otherwise it would not have stirred me > up. Your love of fairness is one of the things that makes you so loveable. Have a great trip! - ESSENTIAL I Realization Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:03 AM Re: Re: Hello I am new here > A huge can of worms has been opened and needs > to be dealt with. Are you serious? For goodness sake, Alton, editors accept and reject material everyday, and they frequently change their minds. This happens a hundred thousand times a day at every website, newspaper, and magazine on the planet. This isn't a can of worms ... it's publishing. Dear Rob: It fine for an editor to accept or reject material and even change their mind after they said they would accept it, but you published Alak's rejection right here on this forum. That is what I think was unfair. So, if I am interested in finding out why you changed course I will contact you when I get back. Note: This claim of unfairness is implanted right in my conditioned consciousness, otherwise it would not have stirred me up. Love, Alton..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > > > Did not he say that and that is why he did not > > give more information about what happens. > > Can I ask you a question before I answer yours? Where does > this idea come from that Sri Ramana didn't give information about > things? People say this frequently in these mail groups. > > It's not true. He said all kinds of things about all kinds of topics. > He talked quite a bit about jnana, about how his state felt, about > the process of realization ... etc. etc. Sri Ramanasramam > publishes over a hundred books ... you might be surprised at what > is contained in some of them. > > Ramana defined realization as a permanent dissolution of the > I-thought in the heart center. According to him, it only happens > once. Either it happened in a given individual or it didn't. > Everybody who is realized is equally realized. There are no shades > of realization. > > He said that often, there is a process leading up to this event > in which people practice staying in nirvikalpa samadhi for longer > and longer periods of time. He described it this way: > > " Nirvikalpa is chit -- effortless, formless consciousness. Where > does the terror come in, and where is the mystery in being oneself? > To some people whose minds have become ripe from a long > practice in the past, nirvikalpa comes suddenly as a flood, but to > others it comes in the course of their spiritual practice, a practice > which slowly wears down the obstructing thoughts and reveals the > screen of pure awareness 'I-I'. Further practice renders the screen > permanently exposed. This is Self-Realization, mukti [liberation], > or sahaja samadhi [natural samadhi], the natural, effortless state. " > > > The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and > > the capacity for more bliss. Ramana experienced so much > > bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him. > > He said he wasn't in bliss. He said that his state was one of > perfect peace, not bliss. For example, he said: > > " In samadhi itself there is perfect peace. Ecstasy comes when > the mind revives at the end of samadhi, with the remembrance > of the peace of samadhi. In devotion the ecstasy comes first. It > is manifested by tears of joy, hair standing on end and vocal > stumbling. When the ego finally dies and the sahaja [i.e. > realization] is won, these symptoms and the ecstasies cease. " > > (Both quotes in this email from Be As You Are, page 161) > > Sri Ramana didn't distinguish enlightenment from realization. > > > If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking > > up you time. > > It only took a couple of minutes. I was joking the other > day about charging for homework. I like to answer these > questions because it keeps my memory fresh. I've pretty much > stopped reading these books, and I'll forget them soon unless I > rummage through them occasionally. > > Best regards, > > Rob If you have the Truth of what Sri Ramana is pointing to there would be no need to read and refresh the memory ....... What he knew you know ...... it is that simple ..... the words and pointings will match up ....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Dear Alton, > I was only referring to where I read in one of the books that > Ramana when asked what that experience of the Self was about, > said that he would not say because it may be different with each > individual. This is not an exact quote, but a paraphrase. Oh I see. I thought you meant he refused to say anything. I kinda doubt that he said that the experience of the Self can be different for different people, because he thought there is only one Self which experiences itSelf. > I am too Piscean to be so organized and my computer has crashed > 4 times in the past years and I did not back up everything correctly. I'm a pisces too. I just keep these books in a nearby bookcase and look in the indexes. - ESSENTIAL I Realization Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:28 AM Re: Re: Hello I am new here Dear Rob: I was only referring to where I read in one of the books that Ramana when asked what that experience of the Self was about, said that he would not say because it may be different with each individual. This is not an exact quote, but a paraphrase. You seem to have notated and have at the touch of your keyboard exact quotes, but evidently I am too Piscean to be so organized and my computer has crashed 4 times in the past years and I did not back up everything correctly. Love, Alton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 > > If you have the Truth of what Sri Ramana is pointing to there > would be no need to read and refresh the memory ....... > > What he knew you know ...... it is that simple ..... the words and > pointings will match up ....... > No, it's not that simple. If it were that simple, this mail group wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be here talking about these things. Neither of us is in Sri Ramana's state. Until we are, his words are useful. And even after we are in his state, should that happen, we may still enjoy having his words run through our minds. Sri Ramana himself liked to hear his own poems chanted. If Sri Ramana liked to hear his words, why shouldn't I like to hear them? .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Hi Ganga, > > > > SG: did i come and and say i am a guru ? > > Haha, of course not. You came under a false identity. > You even modified your writing style to conceal who you > are. > > Anybody who is curious about the claims you make for > yourself can visit your mail group and see what goes on > there. > > Best wishes, > > Rob Once again ...... what was claimed in coming here ? how many come here with false internet identities ? and what are identities ? they are points of reference ..... nothing more ... ........ you have garnered some image and imagination of what you think i am ........ and are projecting things here that never happened ...... implying i came saying i am a Guru etc.... obviously that isn't the case if i came using a different identity ..... it was never mentioned nor implied .......... Neither did i claim realization....... they asked who i am i said what does it matter ? so just what big card of authority was being put out there ? so all these manufactured projections are coming from what and where ? an idea you have built up which so colored a happening to the point of what Actually occurred is so occluded by the preconceptions and entrenched patterns that you paint a whole scenario that didn't take place......... this is projection....... you say yes but on your site you ...... ( that has nothing to do with the price of tea in china) we are here ..... so deal with what is on the plate as is ........ yes please by all means anyone may visit my sites and they will see i have no need to continually attempt to trash others unlike some of your obsessed friends that claim realization and that you hold in high regard....... if they visit my site versus your idea of an enlightened being running the ranch they will find a vast difference....... judi thrive's on that which you won't allow here ....... so once again ...... just what meter are you using ....... i would say that Sri Ramana is more valid than judi ....... he says one stays within the Point of Heart and Self moves from there ........ there is nothing of Heart awareness within the demeaning of others........ any going to my sites will see that what is said holds true and does not vary ..... they will see that there is consistency ...... disgruntled and unhappy souls tend to want to tear apart others in the name of being clear or in boosting their flagging self image ...... the self styled superiority that needs to wage war against and denigrate Love - Religion - & Spirituality and any that hold those values ...... does not show a liberated being at all but one caught in the very suffering which they attempt to lay at everyone elses feet........ i am stating the case ..... as seen from this point ...... you may choose to rage against it ..... look into it...... negate it .... or ignore it ....... that is called freewill....... use the mind for discernment and not discrimination....... they sound so similar yet are worlds apart .......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > > > I was only referring to where I read in one of the books that > > Ramana when asked what that experience of the Self was about, > > said that he would not say because it may be different with each > > individual. This is not an exact quote, but a paraphrase. > > Oh I see. I thought you meant he refused to say anything. > > I kinda doubt that he said that the experience of the Self can be > different for different people, because he thought there is > only one Self which experiences itSelf. Exactly and this is why there are only so many ways that it may be spoken of ....... this is why the words of realizers or sages will mirrror each other... if you are speaking of it in an entirely new way then more than likely you are creating a mental projection rather than the living reality ......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> wrote: > > > > > If you have the Truth of what Sri Ramana is pointing to there > > would be no need to read and refresh the memory ....... > > > > What he knew you know ...... it is that simple ..... the words and > > pointings will match up ....... > > > > No, it's not that simple. If it were that simple, this mail group > wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be here talking about these things. > > Neither of us is in Sri Ramana's state. Until we are, his words > are useful. > > And even after we are in his state, should that happen, we may > still enjoy having his words run through our minds. > > Sri Ramana himself liked to hear his own poems chanted. > > If Sri Ramana liked to hear his words, why shouldn't I like to > hear them? i do not speak from Ramana words and experience but from my own ........ there is only ONE realization ..... One Essense .... One primal Self ....... when that image drops of separation then yes this One Mind remains ....... the problem is the talking about these things without having the experience of ...... hearsay and the concept of it versus the living experience of it are beyond comparison...... as Sri Ramana points to : it isn't through debate or learning -- Be quiet ----- enter the stillness ----- let the thoughts go ..... do Self Enquiry and remain in I AM ......... Self Realization is disolving into that Knowing which blows out all the collected images ....... .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Realization , " alak_azam " <alak_azam> wrote: > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > wrote: > > Hi Ganga, > > > > > > SG: did i come and and say i am a guru ? > > > > Haha, of course not. You came under a false identity. > > You even modified your writing style to conceal who you > > are. > > > > Anybody who is curious about the claims you make for > > yourself can visit your mail group and see what goes on > > there. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Rob > > > Once again ...... what was claimed in coming here ? > > how many come here with false internet identities ? and what > are identities ? they are points of reference ..... nothing more ... *** But really, Sharon, aren't you the one who's made so much out of this? > ....... you have garnered some image and imagination of what > you think i am ........ and are projecting things here that never > happened ...... implying i came saying i am a Guru etc.... > obviously that isn't the case if i came using a different identity ..... > it was never mentioned nor implied .......... > > Neither did i claim realization....... > > they asked who i am i said what does it matter ? so just what > big card of authority was being put out there ? so all these > manufactured projections are coming from what and where ? > > an idea you have built up which so colored a happening to the > point of what Actually occurred is so occluded by the > preconceptions and entrenched patterns that you paint a whole > scenario that didn't take place......... > > this is projection....... > > you say yes but on your site you ...... ( that has nothing to do with > the price of tea in china) we are here ..... so deal with what is > on the plate as is ........ > > > yes please by all means anyone may visit my sites and they will > see i have no need to continually attempt to trash others unlike > some of your obsessed friends that claim realization and that > you hold in high regard....... > if they visit my site versus your idea of an enlightened being > running the ranch they will find a vast difference....... judi thrive's > on that which you won't allow here ....... so once again ...... > just what meter are you using ....... i would say that Sri > Ramana is more valid than judi ....... he says one stays within > the Point of Heart and Self moves from there ........ there is > nothing of Heart awareness within the demeaning of others........ > > > any going to my sites will see that what is said holds true and > does not vary ..... they will see that there is consistency ...... > > disgruntled and unhappy souls tend to want to tear apart others > in the name of being clear or in boosting their flagging self > image ...... the self styled superiority that needs to wage war > against and denigrate Love - Religion - & Spirituality and any that > hold those values ...... does not show a liberated being at all > but one caught in the very suffering which they attempt to lay at > everyone elses feet........ > > i am stating the case ..... as seen from this point ...... *** Who are you trying to convince, Sharon? > you may choose to rage against it ..... look into it...... negate it .... > or ignore it ....... that is called freewill....... > > use the mind for discernment and not discrimination....... they > sound so similar yet are worlds apart .......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 Realization , " alak_azam " <alak_azam> wrote: > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > wrote: > > Dear Alton, > > > > > I was only referring to where I read in one of the books that > > > Ramana when asked what that experience of the Self was > about, > > > said that he would not say because it may be different with > each > > > individual. This is not an exact quote, but a paraphrase. > > > > Oh I see. I thought you meant he refused to say anything. > > > > I kinda doubt that he said that the experience of the Self can be > > different for different people, because he thought there is > > only one Self which experiences itSelf. > > > Exactly and this is why there are only so many ways that it may > be spoken of ....... this is why the words of realizers or sages > will mirrror each other... *** Not necessarily. If you go to different places, they each will have their accepted ways of saying things. For instance, I often use the words Holy Spirit, but someone else might think of that as awakening. The Self is still not acceptable in circles who prefer to use the word God so that no one should confuse their physical self with what they're trying to say and also so that seekers will understand that this Self is the same for everyone and is not a power trip for those who awaken to it. So, while there are similarities, the use of words and phrases is still very much conditioned for those who want to be careful to say just the " right " thing. That is both good and bad. It's good because it does allow people to speak to each other more easily, but it's bad because people do pick up the right words and can easily fool themselves and others and because it creates intolerance for spontaneous relatings that are real. > if you are speaking of it in an entirely new way then more than > likely you are creating a mental projection rather than the living > reality ......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 6, 2003 > Exactly and this is why there are only so many ways that it may > be spoken of ....... this is why the words of realizers or sages > will mirrror each other... > > if you are speaking of it in an entirely new way then more than > likely you are creating a mental projection rather than the living > reality ......... The only problem with this is, it's not true. If you take 200 words by Nisargadatta, 200 words by Ramana Maharshi, 200 words by U.G. Krishnamurti, 200 words by the other Krishnamurti -- pick any realized authors that you like -- and place them in front of a reader who is familiar with those authors, the reader will be able to identify the authors in a heartbeat. Because the fact is, these people don't talk the same way. They don't use the same vocabularies, and they don't have the same ideas. And this doesn't even begin to address the issue of the hundreds of traditions, each one with its own concepts and vocabularies. There are hundreds. Within Vedanta alone, there is dualism, nondualism, and qualified nondualism. Theravada won't talk about the existence of a Self. Ramana Maharshi won't talk about anything but the Self. It goes on and on. - " alak_azam " <alak_azam <Realization > Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:05 PM Re: Hello I am new here > Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...> > wrote: > > Dear Alton, > > > > > I was only referring to where I read in one of the books that > > > Ramana when asked what that experience of the Self was > about, > > > said that he would not say because it may be different with > each > > > individual. This is not an exact quote, but a paraphrase. > > > > Oh I see. I thought you meant he refused to say anything. > > > > I kinda doubt that he said that the experience of the Self can be > > different for different people, because he thought there is > > only one Self which experiences itSelf. > > > Exactly and this is why there are only so many ways that it may > be spoken of ....... this is why the words of realizers or sages > will mirrror each other... > > if you are speaking of it in an entirely new way then more than > likely you are creating a mental projection rather than the living > reality ......... > > > > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST.......... > > Email addresses: > Post message: Realization > Un: Realization- > Our web address: http://www.realization.org > > By sending a message to this list, you are giving > permission to have it reproduced as a letter on > http://www.realization.org > ................................................ > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
