Hello I am new here

[Guest guest]

> Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ......

 

Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant.

I'd like to respond. It would be interesting.

 

By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses

(....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you.

 

I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That's

how shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuation

marks.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob

 

 

-

" alak_azam " <alak_azam

<Realization >

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:16 PM

Re: Hello I am new here

 

 

> Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...>

> wrote:

> > Hi Ganga,

> >

> > > Using your logic why do you have a site at all ?

> >

> > I'm sorry I don't understand this. I really don't. What's

> > your line of thinking here?

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Rob

>

>

> Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ......

>

[Guest guest]

Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...>

wrote:

> onniko: " Without time, there can be no first one or last one " .

>

> Alton: Happening in parallel innumerable universes that are so

close as to almost touch us, there may be " time " equivalents and

no " time " equivalents that contain both duality and non-duality

simultaneously. To the worst of my knowledge. LOL.

> -----

 

That sounds logical to me. Now, I am going to go look and see if I

have any brainburger helper left for dinner, tonight ;oD.

[Guest guest]

Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...>

wrote:

> > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ......

>

> Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant.

> I'd like to respond. It would be interesting.

>

> By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses

> (....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you.

>

> I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That's

> how shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuation

> marks.

>

> Best regards,

>

> Rob

 

outed me from what ? do you know why it was there ?

i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all

wrong ....

 

there is one who knows why ..... the rest only assume they

know and then act from imagination........

 

for the rest it stands ---- quit thinking about it ....... let the mind

settle and then see what remains ........

[Guest guest]

Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...>

wrote:

> Atlon: If someone claims that Realization, I accept what they

> > claim. What does it matter to me.

>

> Rob: Yes but Alton, it doesn't matter to YOU because you're not

the

> type of person who follows gurus. You're ornery and

independent.

> There are other people who do follow gurus and get sucked into

cults

> etc., and for them, it can matter alot.

>

> Dear Rob:

>

> My wife had a friend that died in Jonesville:

> That was part of his purification leading toward the LIGHT.

>

> So many that I have known were violated by so called false gurus.

> In fact Roy Horn who is a Ramana devotee was really violated by

a guru. He

> brought Ramana and Nisargadatta to us when we invited him for

dinner.

> Upon reading the first 30 pages of 'I Am That " I got quite a

rush. Then I was hooked forever

> on this path.

>

> Whether you were violated by a guru or died in some sort of

holocaust, those horrendous events

> were God's will and actually accelerate our return to the SOURCE.

>

> Do you think anything can go wrong with someone's sadhana? Does

God makes mistakes.

 

I don't. But we often talk about God's will in the context of these

extremes. The one who serves to warn of the impending deaths at

Jonesville is also doing God's will. Could it be that coming into

contact with these warnings and being allowed to choose is as the

room allowed for the goat on his rope? The goat has his range and

within that range, it does matter to him and it is God's will that

it does.

> Love and Namaste,

> Alton

[Guest guest]

> Wondering out loud. Is calling someone "silly" a

> personal attack? Or did you mean the arguments were silly?

 

Haha Alton, aren't you supposed to be packing or polishing

your passport or something?

 

-

ESSENTIAL I

Realization

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:43 PM

Re: Re: Hello I am new here

 

Wondering out loud. Is calling someone "silly" a personal attack? Or did you mean the arguments were silly?

 

 

> Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant.I'd like to respond. It would be interesting.By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses(....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you.I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That'show shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuationmarks. :)Best regards,Rob

[Guest guest]

Hi Ganga,

 

> outed me from what ?

 

From your pseudonym. In other words, she made us

realize that Alak was Ganga.

 

> do you know why it was there ?

 

Why what was there? Are you asking if I know why

you hid your identity? I have no idea. I don't want to

know, either. It makes no difference to me.

 

> > i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all

> wrong ....

 

I'm really just trying to have a conversation with you. You

make it very difficult. I've tried to talk to you since you

came into this forum. I answered all your questions as

politely as I could.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob

 

-

" alak_azam " <alak_azam

<Realization >

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:41 PM

Re: Hello I am new here

 

 

> Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...>

> wrote:

> > > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ......

> >

> > Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant.

> > I'd like to respond. It would be interesting.

> >

> > By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses

> > (....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you.

> >

> > I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That's

> > how shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuation

> > marks.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Rob

>

> outed me from what ? do you know why it was there ?

> i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all

> wrong ....

>

> there is one who knows why ..... the rest only assume they

> know and then act from imagination........

>

> for the rest it stands ---- quit thinking about it ....... let the mind

> settle and then see what remains ........

>

[Guest guest]

Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...>

wrote:

>

>

>

> > Ramana said he had thoughts when reading or

> > being asked a question. So even his samadhi was

> > intermittent. OK Rob tell me I am wrong.

>

> I think I'm going to start charging for these homework

assignments.

>

> We all have to make a living some way, because in our culture

begging bowls

> and frowned upon. ROF

>

> Sri Ramana said he was in a state of sahaja samadhi which is

> continuous. He described how thoughts (and everything else)

appear

> in this state as follows:

>

> " In sahaja, however, the mind has resolved itself into the Self

and

> has been lost.... The activities of such a being are like the

feeding

> of a somnolent boy, perceptible to an onlooker (but not to the

> subject). The driver sleeping on his moving cart is not aware of

> the motion of the cart, because his mind is sunk in darkness.

> Similarly the sahaja jnani remains unaware of his bodily

activities

> because his mind is dead -- having been resolved in the ecstasy

of

> Chid Ananada (Self). "

>

> -- From Talks, Article 187.

>

> This might be correct and it might not be correct. If Ramana

submitted to testing with the latest MRI technology we might be able

to conclusively prove the above statements

> but since he did not only the "

> " true believer will accept it in toto.

>

> Hey if it is my destiny to be Realized and I believe it is,

then I will submit to all tests so that we can have definitive

scientific data on spiritual attainments.

>

> Dear Alak, will you be tested? Not to prove that you are

Realized but to make spirituality more scientific.

>

> Love,

> Alton who is making his last posting flourish before leaving

tomorrow. I wont annoy this group for at least three weeks.

 

Ah, have a great time, Alton. The plane won't crash and the temple

won't blow up and the food won't be poison, and well, if I'm wrong,

I'll really miss you =oO!

[Guest guest]

Realization , " alak_azam " <alak_azam>

wrote:

> Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...>

> wrote:

> > > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ......

> >

> > Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant.

> > I'd like to respond. It would be interesting.

> >

> > By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses

> > (....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you.

> >

> > I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That's

> > how shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuation

> > marks.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Rob

>

> outed me from what ? do you know why it was there ?

> i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all

> wrong ....

>

> there is one who knows why ..... the rest only assume they

> know and then act from imagination........

>

> for the rest it stands ---- quit thinking about it .......

let the mind

> settle and then see what remains ........

 

I really don't think anyone except yourself IS thinking about the

whys of it, Ganga. If you showed up at a friend's house in disguise

and someone picked you out by saying something that they knew you'd

respond to in a familiar way, and then they laughed, what would be

the mood in the room? Probably, good humor, I would imagine. I don't

understand why you think everyone is mad at you.

[Guest guest]

Realization , " ESSENTIAL I " <unbound@h...>

wrote:

>

>

>

> > Ramana said he had thoughts when reading or

> > being asked a question. So even his samadhi was

> > intermittent. OK Rob tell me I am wrong.

>

> I think I'm going to start charging for these homework

assignments.

>

> We all have to make a living some way, because in our culture

begging bowls

> and frowned upon. ROF

>

> Sri Ramana said he was in a state of sahaja samadhi which is

> continuous. He described how thoughts (and everything else)

appear

> in this state as follows:

>

> " In sahaja, however, the mind has resolved itself into the Self

and

> has been lost.... The activities of such a being are like the

feeding

> of a somnolent boy, perceptible to an onlooker (but not to the

> subject). The driver sleeping on his moving cart is not aware of

> the motion of the cart, because his mind is sunk in darkness.

> Similarly the sahaja jnani remains unaware of his bodily

activities

> because his mind is dead -- having been resolved in the ecstasy

of

> Chid Ananada (Self). "

>

> -- From Talks, Article 187.

>

> This might be correct and it might not be correct. If Ramana

submitted to testing with the latest MRI technology we might be able

to conclusively prove the above statements

> but since he did not only the "

> " true believer will accept it in toto.

>

> Hey if it is my destiny to be Realized and I believe it is,

then I will submit to all tests so that we can have definitive

scientific data on spiritual attainments.

>

> Dear Alak, will you be tested? Not to prove that you are

Realized but to make spirituality more scientific.

>

> Love,

> Alton who is making his last posting flourish before leaving

tomorrow. I wont annoy this group for at least three weeks.

 

devi: alton i will miss you

[Guest guest]

> outed me from what ? do you know why it was there ?

> i am sure you have lots of assumptions and more than likely all

> wrong ....

>

> there is one who knows why ..... the rest only assume they

> know and then act from imagination........

>

> for the rest it stands ---- quit thinking about it .......

let the mind

> settle and then see what remains ........

 

devi: good advise

[Guest guest]

> Wondering out loud. Is calling someone "silly" a

> personal attack? Or did you mean the arguments were silly?

 

Haha Alton, aren't you supposed to be packing or polishing

your passport or something?

 

-

ESSENTIAL I

Realization

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:43 PM

Re: Re: Hello I am new here

 

Wondering out loud. Is calling someone "silly" a personal attack? Or did you mean the arguments were silly?

 

 

> Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... Oh come on, stop being silly. Tell me what you meant.I'd like to respond. It would be interesting.By the way, I love the way the trademark ellipses(....) came back as soon as Onniko outed you.I have to admit the missing ellipses fooled me. That'show shallow I am -- I can be fooled by punctuationmarks. :)Best regards,Rob- "alak_azam" <alak_azam<Realization >Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:16 PM Re: Hello I am new here> Realization , "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> > wrote:> > Hi Ganga,> > > > > Using your logic why do you have a site at all ? > > > > I'm sorry I don't understand this. I really don't. What's> > your line of thinking here?> > > > Regards,> > > > Rob> > > Stop and sit in the stillness it will come ...... > ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................

[Guest guest]

Here's another quote about Ramana Maharshi's sahaja samadhi.

This one addresses Alton's question exactly:

 

"The sahaja state is a permanent one. It is not a state that one

enters or leaves. A visit to the ashram by Satchidananda

Yogeeswara of Cudappa, a man who went 'into' and 'out of'

samadhi, gave us an opportunity to explain the real nature of

sahaja samadhi. The swami, a famous hatha yogi, was touring

the whole of India, staying in all the important ashrams for three

days and giving discourses. During his tour he also came to

Tiruvannamalai. He visited the ashram, conversed for some time

with Sri Bhagavan, and then returned to where he was staying in

the town. Since those who had accompanied him invited us to

come and listen to his discourse, i and a devotee called

Palanimalai, who was a knowledgeable man, went to attend the

meeting.

 

"When we arrived we were told by one of his followers, 'Swami

is in samadhi. He will come out of it at a specific time and only

after that will the discourse start.'

 

"Then he asked us, 'At what times is your Bhagavan in samadhi?'

 

"Hearing this, Palanimalai Swami could not suppress a burst of

laughter, though he tried unsuccessfully to change it into an

'Is that so?' The disciple of the yogi asked us the reason for this

laughter.

 

"I replied, 'There is no schedule for jnanis. They do not go into

samadhi or come out of it at specific times. Because he knows

this he had to laugh when he heard you speak about entering

and leaving samadhi.'

 

"Then, to make my meaning more clear, I added, 'Sri Bhagavan

is always in sahaja nishta [the natural state].'

 

"After staying there for some time and listening to his discourse,

we returned to the ashram. As usual, Sri Bhagavan enquired

about what had taken place at the meeting.

 

"When I told him what had happened, he said with a smile,

'People are under the impression that the state of samadhi is

something limited by times and places. They think that sitting

still in one place for hours together, without any movement and

with the eyes closed, is samadhi. What to do?'"

 

-- From the chapter on Kunju Swami in Power of the Presence,

Part 2, by David Godman, pp. 83-84.

 

-

ESSENTIAL I

Realization

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:41 PM

Re: Re: Hello I am new here

 

 

 

 

> Ramana said he had thoughts when reading or

> being asked a question. So even his samadhi was

> intermittent. OK Rob tell me I am wrong.

[Guest guest]

Hi Alton,

 

I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without

violating the forum rules.

 

As for Judi, I don't worship her. For a while I was very

excited about her because I thought she could help me.

I got a kick out of emphasizing my appreciation of her

here because it shocked people.

 

I think Judi is really what she claims to be. She claims to

have obtained permanent freedom from some of the compulsive

stuff that goes on in most people's heads. I think she's honest

in her description of this state. I'm not sure what to call that

state except some variety of enlightenment. We don't have an

agreed vocabulary for these states, so people can argue about

the right name for it. But that's a disagreement about definitions

of words, not about Judi's state. Judi herself is authentic. With

Judi, what you see is what you get is what she claims, in

my humble opinion.

 

I don't like the way Judi attacks people. People sometimes

say it's impossible for an enlightened person (whatever that

means exactly) to behave that way. Well, Judi is what she

is and she does behave that way. If I have to choose between

recognizing what's in front of my face and my preconceptions,

I'll go with reality.

 

Love,

 

Rob

 

-

ESSENTIAL I

Realization

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 4:36 PM

Re: Re: Hello I am new here

 

 

 

Dear Rob:

 

If you don't mind answering sort of a difficult question. If you do please skip this one.

 

I have noticed that you seem to have quite a different attitude toward possibly two Enlightened and or Realized beings.

 

You seem to worship Judy who gets off on personal attacks and are cold to Alak. Anyway that is what I noticed from my own conditioned psyche.

 

How come?

 

Love and respects,

Alton

 

 

[Guest guest]

Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...>

wrote:

> Hi Alton,

>

> I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without

> violating the forum rules.

 

 

so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting ....

thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ?

 

so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ?

 

what meter do you use to decide realization ?

 

i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my

writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you

met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees

turn around ........

 

just what part of attacking others do you see as

a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ?

 

now that is amazing .......

 

how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that

Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of

Being that Self moves within ......

 

 

Excerpt : A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it

has come to the end , it seeks another support. While doing so it

holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body

and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similiairly it is

with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also

according to circumstances. But its activities always centre

round the Heart ........

 

pettiness , bitchiness, and Heart are not synonymous.....

you might want to look at your Realization meter and

contemplate making adjustments to it's voracity ......

[Guest guest]

Dear Rob:

 

I like you a lot and don't want to lose you as a friend, but my own configured mind wants fairness.

 

You wrote in snip about Alak aka whatever:

 

"The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it."

 

I think it would be fair to Alak and the group if you tell the group what made you "less impressed about those aforesaid writing. I know it might be time consuming and much work, but Alak needs to be able to use this forum to have a dialogue about his/her writings. Otherwise he/she has been dissed without being able to neutralize and or explain his/her offerings. I want to know too.

 

A huge can of worms has been opened and needs to be dealt with. Are you sure that no other persons influenced your decision not to use his/her work?

 

By the way we are already packed. Only a few more cycles like me making lots of sushi's for the 15 hour journey.

 

Will miss you and the group until I can get online there.

 

Love,

Alton

 

 

Hi Ganga,> so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestlyand stick to the rules at the same time.You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly appropriate for people to question your qualifications. You can't say to the world, "I'm a realized guru," andthen cry "unfair" when people question whether you really are what you claim to be.> so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very good meditator.Not everybody pretends to be enlightened.> i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees> turn around ........ Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years?Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip onyour shoulder?Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was, after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your existing published writing on your websites in order to find material that I could extract and combine into a single long article. The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it.I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I shouldhave read your material more carefully before I contacted you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I hadchanged my mind. Either way, I acted badly.> just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? No part of it. That's not what I wrote.> how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state.I never said that she is. Best wishes,Rob- "alak_azam" <alak_azam<Realization >Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:37 PM Re: Hello I am new here> Realization , "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> > wrote:> > Hi Alton,> > > > I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without > > violating the forum rules.> > > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? > > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? > > what meter do you use to decide realization ? > > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees> turn around ........ > > just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? > > now that is amazing ....... > > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... > > > Excerpt : A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it > has come to the end , it seeks another support. While doing so it > holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body > and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similiairly it is > with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also > according to circumstances. But its activities always centre > round the Heart ........> > pettiness , bitchiness, and Heart are not synonymous..... > you might want to look at your Realization meter and > contemplate making adjustments to it's voracity ......

[Guest guest]

 

 

Hi Alton,

 

I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without

violating the forum rules.

 

If you stuck to issues would that violate the forum rules?

 

Love,

Alton

[Guest guest]

Dear Rob:

From where I am at I cant say whether this is right on or just hearsay.

If we don't get to that Realization, then all we read may or may not be true, as it is all hearsay. So seekers have to BELIEVE so that they can progress on any particular path.

 

Right now I still believe that Realization is on a sliding scale and so is Enlightenment.

If that were not true than Ramana would not have said that there may be differences in what is experienced. Did not he say that and that is why he did not give more information about what happens? The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and the capacity for more bliss.

Ramana experienced so much bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him.

 

If you disagree I will have to reread the parts where that was mentioned.

 

If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking up you time.

 

 

 

Love,

Alton

 

 

Here's another quote about Ramana Maharshi's sahaja samadhi.

This one addresses Alton's question exactly:

 

"The sahaja state is a permanent one. It is not a state that one

enters or leaves. A visit to the ashram by Satchidananda

Yogeeswara of Cudappa, a man who went 'into' and 'out of'

samadhi, gave us an opportunity to explain the real nature of

sahaja samadhi. The swami, a famous hatha yogi, was touring

the whole of India, staying in all the important ashrams for three

days and giving discourses. During his tour he also came to

Tiruvannamalai. He visited the ashram, conversed for some time

with Sri Bhagavan, and then returned to where he was staying in

the town. Since those who had accompanied him invited us to

come and listen to his discourse, i and a devotee called

Palanimalai, who was a knowledgeable man, went to attend the

meeting.

 

"When we arrived we were told by one of his followers, 'Swami

is in samadhi. He will come out of it at a specific time and only

after that will the discourse start.'

 

"Then he asked us, 'At what times is your Bhagavan in samadhi?'

 

"Hearing this, Palanimalai Swami could not suppress a burst of

laughter, though he tried unsuccessfully to change it into an

'Is that so?' The disciple of the yogi asked us the reason for this

laughter.

 

"I replied, 'There is no schedule for jnanis. They do not go into

samadhi or come out of it at specific times. Because he knows

this he had to laugh when he heard you speak about entering

and leaving samadhi.'

 

"Then, to make my meaning more clear, I added, 'Sri Bhagavan

is always in sahaja nishta [the natural state].'

 

"After staying there for some time and listening to his discourse,

we returned to the ashram. As usual, Sri Bhagavan enquired

about what had taken place at the meeting.

 

"When I told him what had happened, he said with a smile,

'People are under the impression that the state of samadhi is

something limited by times and places. They think that sitting

still in one place for hours together, without any movement and

with the eyes closed, is samadhi. What to do?'"

 

-- From the chapter on Kunju Swami in Power of the Presence,

Part 2, by David Godman, pp. 83-84.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ganga,

 

> so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting ....

> thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ?

 

I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestly

and stick to the rules at the same time.

 

You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly

appropriate for people to question your qualifications.

 

You can't say to the world, " I'm a realized guru, " and

then cry " unfair " when people question whether you

really are what you claim to be.

 

> so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ?

 

It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've

never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very

good meditator.

 

Not everybody pretends to be enlightened.

 

> i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my

> writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you

> met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees

> turn around ........

 

Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years?

Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip on

your shoulder?

 

Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead

with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was,

after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your

existing published writing on your websites in order to find

material that I could extract and combine into a single long

article. The more I read, the less impressed I became,

and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could

republish some of it.

 

I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I should

have read your material more carefully before I contacted

you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I had

changed my mind. Either way, I acted badly.

 

> just what part of attacking others do you see as

> a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ?

 

No part of it. That's not what I wrote.

 

> how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that

> Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of

> Being that Self moves within ......

 

It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state.

I never said that she is.

 

Best wishes,

 

Rob

 

-

" alak_azam " <alak_azam

<Realization >

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:37 PM

Re: Hello I am new here

 

 

> Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...>

> wrote:

> > Hi Alton,

> >

> > I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without

> > violating the forum rules.

>

>

> so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting ....

> thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ?

>

> so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ?

>

> what meter do you use to decide realization ?

>

> i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my

> writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you

> met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees

> turn around ........

>

> just what part of attacking others do you see as

> a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ?

>

> now that is amazing .......

>

> how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that

> Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of

> Being that Self moves within ......

>

>

> Excerpt : A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it

> has come to the end , it seeks another support. While doing so it

> holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body

> and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similiairly it is

> with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also

> according to circumstances. But its activities always centre

> round the Heart ........

>

> pettiness , bitchiness, and Heart are not synonymous.....

> you might want to look at your Realization meter and

> contemplate making adjustments to it's voracity ......

[Guest guest]

Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...>

wrote:

> Hi Ganga,

>

> > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting ....

> > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ?

>

> I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestly

> and stick to the rules at the same time.

>

> You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly

> appropriate for people to question your qualifications.

 

SG: did i come and and say i am a guru ?

 

 

 

 

> You can't say to the world, " I'm a realized guru, " and

> then cry " unfair " when people question whether you

> really are what you claim to be.

 

SG; once again did i come here and claim anything ?

 

 

 

> > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ?

>

> It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've

> never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very

> good meditator.

>

> Not everybody pretends to be enlightened.

 

SG: who is pretending to be enlightened ? i came and

participated just like anyone else ........

 

 

 

 

> > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my

> > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you

> > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees

> > turn around ........

>

> Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years?

> Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip on

> your shoulder?

 

SG: no i didn't come with any chip .......

once again look in the archives ....... i just came like anyone

else that participates here ........ an no i am not mad just stating

facts .........

 

 

 

 

> Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead

> with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was,

> after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your

> existing published writing on your websites in order to find

> material that I could extract and combine into a single long

> article. The more I read, the less impressed I became,

> and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could

> republish some of it.

 

SG: so just be honest in it ........

 

 

> I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I should

> have read your material more carefully before I contacted

> you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I had

> changed my mind. Either way, I acted badly.

 

SG; there is no need to apologise for it ....... it makes no

difference to me either way ........ but if you want to apologize try

for just being pissy since you found out who i am .......

 

 

 

> > just what part of attacking others do you see as

> > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ?

>

> No part of it. That's not what I wrote.

 

SG; no that is what judi does and you hold her in high esteem

as someone you consider realized .......

 

 

 

>

> > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that

> > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of

> > Being that Self moves within ......

>

> It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state.

> I never said that she is.

 

 

SG: so are there varying degrees of Realization ? it either is

or is not ........

 

 

 

> Best wishes,

>

> Rob

 

do you mean that or are you just making noise ?

[Guest guest]

Realization , " ESSENTIAL I "

<unbound@h...> wrote:

> Dear Rob:

>

> I like you a lot and don't want to lose you as a friend, but my

own configured mind wants fairness.

>

> You wrote in snip about Alak aka whatever:

>

> " The more I read, the less impressed I became,

> and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could

> republish some of it. "

>

> I think it would be fair to Alak and the group if you tell the group

what made you " less impressed about those aforesaid writing. I

know it might be time consuming and much work, but Alak

needs to be able to use this forum to have a dialogue about

his/her writings. Otherwise he/she has been dissed without

being able to neutralize and or explain his/her offerings. I want to

know too.

>

> A huge can of worms has been opened and needs to be dealt

with. Are you sure that no other persons influenced your

decision not to use his/her work?

>

> By the way we are already packed. Only a few more cycles like

me making lots of sushi's for the 15 hour journey.

>

> Will miss you and the group until I can get online there.

>

> Love,

> Alton

 

 

** really it doesn't matter why he decided not to use it ......

that fact is he did and that is fine........

 

not everyone is going to resonate with Nisargadatta or

Poonjaji ........ so why would everyone resonate with me ?

 

be that as it may to infer that i am a fraud and pretending

to be enlightened is unwarrented ...... the only way he

could determine that to be so is IF he were himself

Realized and had spent time in close proximity as to know

the life in connection with the words .........

 

being that he is not - nor has not just what gauge is

being used ......

 

if he looks closely it will be found that my words are

in direct alignment with Sri Ramana, other sages, and

the upanishads ......

 

would judi hold up as well ?

 

 

one will see only what they are open to seeing .....

[Guest guest]

As someone who does not know any of you personally, or which groups you are

on, or were on, or will be on, or the different name-sounds you are

currently using, I just want to say that I find this whole

more-enlightened-than-thou shtick hilarious.

Gelf

 

 

alak_azam [alak_azam]

Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:30 AM

Realization

Re: Hello I am new here

 

 

Realization , " Rob Sacks " <editor@r...>

wrote:

> Hi Ganga,

>

> > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting ....

> > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ?

>

> I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestly

> and stick to the rules at the same time.

>

> You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly

> appropriate for people to question your qualifications.

 

SG: did i come and and say i am a guru ?

 

 

 

 

> You can't say to the world, " I'm a realized guru, " and

> then cry " unfair " when people question whether you

> really are what you claim to be.

 

SG; once again did i come here and claim anything ?

 

 

 

> > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ?

>

> It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've

> never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very

> good meditator.

>

> Not everybody pretends to be enlightened.

 

SG: who is pretending to be enlightened ? i came and

participated just like anyone else ........

 

 

 

 

> > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my

> > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you

> > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees

> > turn around ........

>

> Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years?

> Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip on

> your shoulder?

 

SG: no i didn't come with any chip .......

once again look in the archives ....... i just came like anyone

else that participates here ........ an no i am not mad just stating

facts .........

 

 

 

 

> Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead

> with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was,

> after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your

> existing published writing on your websites in order to find

> material that I could extract and combine into a single long

> article. The more I read, the less impressed I became,

> and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could

> republish some of it.

 

SG: so just be honest in it ........

 

 

> I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I should

> have read your material more carefully before I contacted

> you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I had

> changed my mind. Either way, I acted badly.

 

SG; there is no need to apologise for it ....... it makes no

difference to me either way ........ but if you want to apologize try

for just being pissy since you found out who i am .......

 

 

 

> > just what part of attacking others do you see as

> > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ?

>

> No part of it. That's not what I wrote.

 

SG; no that is what judi does and you hold her in high esteem

as someone you consider realized .......

 

 

 

>

> > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that

> > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of

> > Being that Self moves within ......

>

> It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state.

> I never said that she is.

 

 

SG: so are there varying degrees of Realization ? it either is

or is not ........

 

 

 

> Best wishes,

>

> Rob

 

do you mean that or are you just making noise ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........

 

Email addresses:

Post message: Realization

Un: Realization-

Our web address: http://www.realization.org

 

By sending a message to this list, you are giving

permission to have it reproduced as a letter on

http://www.realization.org

.................................................

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Alton,

 

> I think it would be fair to Alak and the group if you

> tell the group what made you "less impressed about

> those aforesaid writing.

 

I don't see how this involves fairness, but if anybody wants to

know, they can write to me privately and I'll tell them.

 

> A huge can of worms has been opened and needs

> to be dealt with.

 

Are you serious? For goodness sake, Alton, editors accept and

reject material everyday, and they frequently change their minds.

This happens a hundred thousand times a day at every website,

newspaper, and magazine on the planet. This isn't a can of

worms ... it's publishing.

 

> Are you sure that no other persons influenced

> your decision not to use his/her work?

 

Yes I'm sure, but even if somebody did influence the decision, what

difference would it make? I'm influenced all the time by all kinds of

things.

 

> Will miss you and the group until I can get online there.

 

Likewise, buddy. Hope you get plugged in right away. Have a great

trip.

 

Aloha,

 

Rob

 

-

ESSENTIAL I

Realization

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:46 PM

Re: Re: Hello I am new here

 

Dear Rob:

 

I like you a lot and don't want to lose you as a friend, but my own configured mind wants fairness.

 

You wrote in snip about Alak aka whatever:

 

"The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it."

 

I think it would be fair to Alak and the group if you tell the group what made you "less impressed about those aforesaid writing. I know it might be time consuming and much work, but Alak needs to be able to use this forum to have a dialogue about his/her writings. Otherwise he/she has been dissed without being able to neutralize and or explain his/her offerings. I want to know too.

 

A huge can of worms has been opened and needs to be dealt with. Are you sure that no other persons influenced your decision not to use his/her work?

 

By the way we are already packed. Only a few more cycles like me making lots of sushi's for the 15 hour journey.

 

Will miss you and the group until I can get online there.

 

Love,

Alton

 

 

Hi Ganga,> so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? I was just trying to answer Alton's question honestlyand stick to the rules at the same time.You hold yourself out as a guru. That makes it perfectly appropriate for people to question your qualifications. You can't say to the world, "I'm a realized guru," andthen cry "unfair" when people question whether you really are what you claim to be.> so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? It's not enlightened behavior. I'm not enlightened. I've never claimed to be enlightened. I'm not even a very good meditator.Not everybody pretends to be enlightened.> i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees> turn around ........ Oh is that what you're mad about? After all these years?Is that why you suddenly showed up here with a chip onyour shoulder?Judi had nothing to do with my decision not to go ahead with it. I didn't even know her then. What happened was, after you and I agreed in principle, I began to read your existing published writing on your websites in order to find material that I could extract and combine into a single long article. The more I read, the less impressed I became, and I decided that I had made a mistake by asking if I could republish some of it.I apologize to you for this. It was inconsiderate. I shouldhave read your material more carefully before I contacted you. Or else I should have sent an email telling you I hadchanged my mind. Either way, I acted badly.> just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? No part of it. That's not what I wrote.> how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... It doesn't fit. I don't think Judi is in Sri Ramana's state.I never said that she is. Best wishes,Rob- "alak_azam" <alak_azam<Realization >Wednesday, November 05, 2003 7:37 PM Re: Hello I am new here> Realization , "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> > wrote:> > Hi Alton,> > > > I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without > > violating the forum rules.> > > so you just give underhanded shots .... interesting .... > thereby keeping the *integrity* of the site intact ? > > so just what type of enlightened behavior is that ? > > what meter do you use to decide realization ? > > i laugh in that you at one point you asked to post my > writings on the Realization.com site ....... then you > met judi and guess what ? not a surprise 180 degrees> turn around ........ > > just what part of attacking others do you see as > a confirmation of judi's Non-dual Realization ? > > now that is amazing ....... > > how does that fit in with Sri Ramana's statement that > Realization ends in the Heart ....... That is the point of > Being that Self moves within ...... > > > Excerpt : A caterpillar crawls on a blade of grass and when it > has come to the end , it seeks another support. While doing so it > holds on with its hind-legs to the blade of grass, lifts the body > and sways to and fro before it can hold another. Similiairly it is > with the Self. It stays in the Heart and holds other centres also > according to circumstances. But its activities always centre > round the Heart ........> > pettiness , bitchiness, and Heart are not synonymous..... > you might want to look at your Realization meter and > contemplate making adjustments to it's voracity ...... ..........INFORMATION ABOUT THIS LIST..........Email addresses: Post message: Realization Un: Realization- Our web address: http://www.realization.orgBy sending a message to this list, you are givingpermission to have it reproduced as a letter onhttp://www.realization.org................................................

[Guest guest]

> If you stuck to issues would that violate the forum rules?

 

The rule is, no personal criticisms (no disparaging remarks

about people themselves).

 

-

 

ESSENTIAL I

Realization

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:48 PM

Re: Re: Hello I am new here

 

 

 

 

Hi Alton,

 

I can't answer the question with respect to Ganga without

violating the forum rules.

 

If you stuck to issues would that violate the forum rules?

 

Love,

Alton

[Guest guest]

Dear Alton,

 

> Did not he say that and that is why he did not

> give more information about what happens.

 

Can I ask you a question before I answer yours? Where does

this idea come from that Sri Ramana didn't give information about

things? People say this frequently in these mail groups.

 

It's not true. He said all kinds of things about all kinds of topics.

He talked quite a bit about jnana, about how his state felt, about

the process of realization ... etc. etc. Sri Ramanasramam

publishes over a hundred books ... you might be surprised at what

is contained in some of them.

 

Ramana defined realization as a permanent dissolution of the

I-thought in the heart center. According to him, it only happens

once. Either it happened in a given individual or it didn't.

Everybody who is realized is equally realized. There are no shades

of realization.

 

He said that often, there is a process leading up to this event

in which people practice staying in nirvikalpa samadhi for longer

and longer periods of time. He described it this way:

 

"Nirvikalpa is chit -- effortless, formless consciousness. Where

does the terror come in, and where is the mystery in being oneself?

To some people whose minds have become ripe from a long

practice in the past, nirvikalpa comes suddenly as a flood, but to

others it comes in the course of their spiritual practice, a practice

which slowly wears down the obstructing thoughts and reveals the

screen of pure awareness 'I-I'. Further practice renders the screen

permanently exposed. This is Self-Realization, mukti [liberation],

or sahaja samadhi [natural samadhi], the natural, effortless state."

 

> The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and

> the capacity for more bliss. Ramana experienced so much

> bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him.

 

He said he wasn't in bliss. He said that his state was one of

perfect peace, not bliss. For example, he said:

 

"In samadhi itself there is perfect peace. Ecstasy comes when

the mind revives at the end of samadhi, with the remembrance

of the peace of samadhi. In devotion the ecstasy comes first. It

is manifested by tears of joy, hair standing on end and vocal

stumbling. When the ego finally dies and the sahaja [i.e.

realization] is won, these symptoms and the ecstasies cease."

 

(Both quotes in this email from Be As You Are, page 161)

 

Sri Ramana didn't distinguish enlightenment from realization.

 

> If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking

> up you time.

 

It only took a couple of minutes. I was joking the other

day about charging for homework. I like to answer these

questions because it keeps my memory fresh. I've pretty much

stopped reading these books, and I'll forget them soon unless I

rummage through them occasionally.

 

Best regards,

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

ESSENTIAL I

Realization

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:02 PM

Re: Re: Hello I am new here

 

Dear Rob:

From where I am at I cant say whether this is right on or just hearsay.

If we don't get to that Realization, then all we read may or may not be true, as it is all hearsay. So seekers have to BELIEVE so that they can progress on any particular path.

 

Right now I still believe that Realization is on a sliding scale and so is Enlightenment.

If that were not true than Ramana would not have said that there may be differences in what is experienced. Did not he say that and that is why he did not give more information about what happens? The sliding scale may take the form of more megawatts and the capacity for more bliss.

Ramana experienced so much bliss that he did not give a hoot about ants or rats gnawing at him.

 

If you disagree I will have to reread the parts where that was mentioned.

 

If you had other plans for today and tomorrow I apologize for taking up you time.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Ganga,

 

> > SG: did i come and and say i am a guru ?

 

Haha, of course not. You came under a false identity.

You even modified your writing style to conceal who you

are.

 

Anybody who is curious about the claims you make for

yourself can visit your mail group and see what goes on

there.

 

Best wishes,

 

Rob

 

 

-

" alak_azam " <alak_azam

<Realization >

Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:30 AM

Re: Hello I am new here