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Brahman – The absolute God of Hindus ? Confused?

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In the same way,the Lord pervades the universe in His nirguna AS WELL as saguna Aspect,yet He maintains His supremacy and Knowledge.

Please reflect upon the verse staing that there are TWO birds.One is eating the fruit and the other is WATCHING(noting down karmas) and is unattached.

There is no question of the Supersoul being the soul.There are TWO birds.

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7.24 says that Krsna does not come from Brahman.

I agree. I think BG 7.24 implies that Krishna is Brahman. At least the literal verse is not inconsistent with such a view. And if Brahman is one without a second, then Krishna might be the Supreme personal manifestation or the essence of Brahman within our tiny human consciousness. In fact, all that we are consciously aware of, including consciousness itself, must be the manifestation of Brahman. In this sense you can say that we are the all pervading Brahman; although obviously we are also different from Brahman/Krishna..

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It seems that 'everything pervades' the Universe..

 

What does this mean?

 

Talk about monism.

 

I guess your opinion is the same as my opinion but they are different?

 

Maybe your dictionary spells all its words with only one letter --so as not to show favoritism toward any one letter?

 

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy,

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It seems that 'everything pervades' the Universe..

 

What does this mean?

...

 

Well, I tried to establish the idea that Absolute God is 'all pervading'. If so, then everything is Absolute God. Thus, everything is 'all pervading'.. :)

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I really like to think that the problem of 'who is the Absolute Origin', can be solved by a (logical) concept of 'inconceivable (simultaneous) one-ness and difference', like Sri Chaitanya’s Achintya Bhedabheda. But simultaneously, Sri Sankara’s Advaita must be basically true. There can only be one Origin. And if everything 'has its source' in the philosophical Absolute Origin, then everything is One. All consciously perceived differences in the world, be it between material objects or between yourself and other persons, are the product of our human ignorance, which also must 'have its source' in the Absolute Origin (God)..

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I really like to think that the problem of 'who is the Absolute Origin', can be solved by a (logical) concept of 'inconceivable (simultaneous) one-ness and difference', like Sri Chaitanya’s Achintya Bhedabheda. [..]

It can only be solved by realization. There are no words. No logic. Just Reality.

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It can only be solved by realization. There are no words. No logic. Just Reality.

I’m not convinced of that. In mathematical chaos theory, very simple systems define a unitary (original) oscillation, which underlies 'self-similar' or 'fractal' structures and complex 'self-organized' behavior in the so called 'phase-space' of the system. :) I don’t intend to start a discussion about this subject matter, neither do I say that such mathematical systems will 'prove' anything, but I personally think that they could serve as logical models, that not only suggest a possible unification of quantum-physics and general relativity, but may also provide a powerful conceptualization of how a unitary Origin could underlie all manifest structure and perceived duality in this world. And, as yet, I find that such a model seamlessly fits the scriptural idea of 'simultaneous oneness and difference'..

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BG 14.27 as it is:

 

brahmano hi pratisthaham

amrtasyavyayasya ca

sasvatasya ca dharmasya

sukhasyaikantikasya ca

 

Synonyms:

brahmanah--of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi--certainly; pratistha--the rest; aham--I am; amrtasya--of the immortal; avyayasya--of the imperishable; ca--also; sasvatasya--of the eternal; ca--and; dharmasya--of the constitutional position; sukhasya--of happiness; aikantikasya--ultimate; ca--also.

 

Translation:

"And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman , which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness."

 

http://www.iskcon.com/books/bg/bg.php?ch=14#27

 

 

BG 14.27 alternatively:

 

...

 

Translation:

Verily, I am the original foundation of the Ultimate Truth and of eternal righteousness; of imperishable immortality and absolute transcendental bliss.

 

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-14-24.html

 

 

In Prabhupada’s version, the words 'of the impersonal brahmajyoti' are used as synonymous to the Sanskrit term 'brahmanah'. But what exactly is brahmajyoti? There appears to be no other mentioning in BG and SB of brahmajyoti. Brahmanah generally means 'of Brahma' (http://vedabase.net/b/brahmanah). Possibly brahmajyoti refers to the term 'para-brahmanah', 'the Supreme Absolute Truth', in SB 6.9.42 (http://vedabase.net/sb/6/9/42/)..<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

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Here it is:

 

 

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 4.24

 

brahmarpanam brahma havir

brahmagnau brahmana hutam

brahmaiva tena gantavyam

brahma-karma-samadhina

 

SYNONYMS

 

brahma -- spiritual in nature; arpanam -- contribution; brahma -- the Supreme; havih -- butter; brahma -- spiritual; agnau -- in the fire of consummation; brahmana -- by the spirit soul; hutam -- offered; brahma -- spiritual kingdom; eva -- certainly; tena -- by him; gantavyam -- to be reached; brahma -- spiritual; karma -- in activities; samadhina -- by complete absorption.

 

TRANSLATION

 

A person who is fully absorbed in Krishna consciousness is sure to attain the spiritual kingdom because of his full contribution to spiritual activities, in which the consummation is absolute and that which is offered is of the same spiritual nature.

 

PURPORT

 

How activities in Krishna consciousness can lead one ultimately to the spiritual goal is described here. There are various activities in Krishna consciousness, and all of them will be described in the following verses. But, for the present, just the principle of Krishna consciousness is described. A conditioned soul, entangled in material contamination, is sure to act in the material atmosphere, and yet he has to get out of such an environment. The process by which the conditioned soul can get out of the material atmosphere is Krishna consciousness. For example, a patient who is suffering from a disorder of the bowels due to overindulgence in milk products is cured by another milk product, namely curds. The materially absorbed conditioned soul can be cured by Krishna consciousness as set forth here in the Gita. This process is generally known as yajna, or activities (sacrifices) simply meant for the satisfaction of Vishnu, or Krishna. The more the activities of the material world are performed in Krishna consciousness, or for Vishnu only, the more the atmosphere becomes spiritualized by complete absorption. The word brahma (Brahman) means "spiritual." The Lord is spiritual, and the rays of His transcendental body are called brahmajyoti, His spiritual effulgence. Everything that exists is situated in that brahmajyoti, but when the jyoti is covered by illusion (maya) or sense gratification, it is called material. This material veil can be removed at once by Krishna consciousness; thus the offering for the sake of Krishna consciousness, the consuming agent of such an offering or contribution, the process of consumption, the contributor, and the result are -- all combined together -- Brahman, or the Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth covered by maya is called matter. Matter dovetailed for the cause of the Absolute Truth regains its spiritual quality. Krishna consciousness is the process of converting the illusory consciousness into Brahman, or the Supreme. When the mind is fully absorbed in Krishna consciousness, it is said to be in samadhi, or trance. Anything done in such transcendental consciousness is called yajna, or sacrifice for the Absolute. In that condition of spiritual consciousness, the contributor, the contribution, the consumption, the performer or leader of the performance, and the result or ultimate gain -- everything -- becomes one in the Absolute, the Supreme Brahman. That is the method of Krishna consciousness.

 

http://vedabase.net/bg/4/24/en

 

In the purport of BG 4.24 Srila Prabhupada clearly states that Krishna is Vishnu. Therefore, Krishna cannot be "the basis of Brahman". The brahmajyoti is Krishna’s spiritual effulgence, which is not the Supreme Brahman. Through realising this brahmajyoti, we attain Brahman, the Absolute Truth. "Everything becomes one in the Absolute, the Supreme Brahman".

 

So the statement "I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman" in BG 14.27, doesn’t comply with the provided synonyms (brahmanah--of the impersonal brahmajyoti), and it also doesn’t comply with Prabhupada’s purport of BG 4.24. It should have stated: "I am the basis of the impersonal brahmajyoti", which has a completely different meaning.

 

How can Prabhupada have made this error, contradicting his own explanation of the subject in his purport of BG 4.24?

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Guest Melvin1

 

Here it is:

 

 

In the purport of BG 4.24 Srila Prabhupada clearly states that Krishna is Vishnu. Therefore, Krishna cannot be "the basis of Brahman". The brahmajyoti is Krishna’s spiritual effulgence, which is not the Supreme Brahman. Through realising this brahmajyoti, we attain Brahman, the Absolute Truth. "Everything becomes one in the Absolute, the Supreme Brahman".

 

So the statement "I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman" in BG 14.27, doesn’t comply with the provided synonyms (brahmanah--of the impersonal brahmajyoti), and it also doesn’t comply with Prabhupada’s purport of BG 4.24. It should have stated: "I am the basis of the impersonal brahmajyoti", which has a completely different meaning.

 

How can Prabhupada have made this error, contradicting his own explanation of the subject in his purport of BG 4.24?

 

This topic reminds me of the Kaustubha gem. When it is worn say by, Siva, the wearer Siva becomes more beautiful but when it is worn by Krsna, it`s the Kaustubha gem that becomes more beautiful not Krsna.

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I was thinking..

 

Most people assume that the world is real, and that everything exists within the confines of the universe (be it manifest/material or non-manifest/spiritual). This idea appears to be confirmed by the Hindu/Vaishnava belief that the Supreme Absolute Truth can be realized and be known to us as Brahman/Vishnu/Krishna/etc.

 

When we drop the assumption that everything exists within the confines of our universe, and we say that our universe is just one of many other universes, then what we call God must be just the manifestation of the Supreme Absolute Truth within our own universe or consciousness. The Supreme Absolute Truth itself cannot be (fully) known or realized, because it (also) exists outside the realm of our own universe or consciousness. Thus, the God we know cannot be the Supreme Absolute Truth; although He is the Absolute Truth within this universe; non-different from the self or the consciousness.

 

When we also drop the assumption that the material universe is real (ignorance), things become much simpler. Other universes must be equally unreal, and Everything must be God. It might then be possible to know or realize the Supreme Absolute Truth as non-different from the self or the consciousness.

 

Possibly, (Supreme) Absolute Truth exists somewhere in between the latter two positions, i.e., the material universe is both real and unreal or partially real and partially unreal. Then (Supreme) Absolute Truth is still non-different from the self or the consciousness. Thus, knowing Absolute Truth seems to be simply a matter of self-realization.. :)

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Primate,why are you speculating so much ?

 

Do you know what speculation did to kalidas??

 

The ego makes it very easy for a person to believe his speculation to be true.Kalidasa openly declared that Lord Shiva got his wife drunk,etc.

This is very harmful.

Sri Krsna is the basis of Nirguna Brahm.Pratishtha.

P.S. The exact meaning of the vedas is not for us to decide.It is to be realised only after realising Bhagavan.After all,the richas of the vedas,are the eternal attendants in Goloka.This is not fiction.Understanding Sri Krsna alone leads to the knowledge of the vedas.

Otherwise,you will just end up forming false theories and getting more confused.Your theories can never be applied practically and are not accepted by any acarya.Please stop expounding them.They are confusing you.

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I was thinking..

 

Most people assume that the world is real, and that everything exists within the confines of the universe (be it manifest/material or non-manifest/spiritual). This idea appears to be confirmed by the Hindu/Vaishnava belief that the Supreme Absolute Truth can be realized and be known to us as Brahman/Vishnu/Krishna/etc.

 

When we drop the assumption that everything exists within the confines of our universe, and we say that our universe is just one of many other universes, then what we call God must be just the manifestation of the Supreme Absolute Truth within our own universe or consciousness. The Supreme Absolute Truth itself cannot be (fully) known or realized, because it (also) exists outside the realm of our own universe or consciousness. Thus, the God we know cannot be the Supreme Absolute Truth; although He is the Absolute Truth within this universe; non-different from the self or the consciousness.

 

When we also drop the assumption that the material universe is real (ignorance), things become much simpler. Other universes must be equally unreal, and Everything must be God. It might then be possible to know or realize the Supreme Absolute Truth as non-different from the self or the consciousness.

 

Possibly, (Supreme) Absolute Truth exists somewhere in between the latter two positions, i.e., the material universe is both real and unreal or partially real and partially unreal. Then (Supreme) Absolute Truth is still non-different from the self or the consciousness. Thus, knowing Absolute Truth seems to be simply a matter of self-realization.. :)

 

I have no doubt this springs from your own variation on Advaita.

You mean to say that after liberation,there is non-existence(?) or just inertness.Everything becomes ONE.

But this does not seem to conform with our inherent nature.Can you refrain from performing a single function,whether in mind or senses,relating to the bodyeven for a second ??

No.These functions are all inherent in all jeevas.This is direct perception.Whereas,your concept of mukti completely overlooks this undeniable truth.Instead,these functions are eternally fulfilled in the Vaikunthas.

"Sada pashyanti surayah tad vishnoh paramam padam."-(1)

"Satyam Jnayanam anantam brahm." -(2)

That para brahm has infinte Paraphernalia.

The vedas state that neither sun,nor moon,nor anything material can enter that region of para brahm.

This means that,"There is a region,a space,eventhough infinte,which accomodates brahm and His paraphernalia."

What is that place ??

As stated in (1).

Remember one thing and one thing only.

Each and every Jeevatma is searching for ananda.Every inch of the material universe if teeming with living organisms,in search of happiness,constantly.As long as the jeevatma attains ananda,it doesn't matter if this ananda is derived from serving the feet of Saguna saakar brahm.

"Sukham me bhuyat,dukham me ma bhut".

Every one wants sukha.No one wants dukha.

 

The doctrines which do not satisfy this condition are not to be considered.I'm sorry to point out that your theory offers no solution whatsoever.

Whereas one of the great acharyas has simply stated.

 

"Jeevera swarupa hoye krishnera nitya dasa."

The jeevatma,by default,is a servant of Sri KRsna.Why ?

 

BEcoz sri Krsna is ananda and jeevatma is searching only for ananda.

 

"Sastra veda kahe sambandha,abhidheya,prayojana- krsna,krsna bhakti, prema,ye teen mahadhon."

 

The eternal relationship with Sri KRsna.The sadhana for attaining Him and the fruit,Prema bhakti,are the three things described in the sastras.There is nothing else.

In the entire vedic literature,there is absolutely nothing else described.

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I have no doubt this springs from your own variation on Advaita.

You mean to say that after liberation,there is non-existence(?) or just inertness.Everything becomes ONE. ...

 

Well, not really. :) I suggested how the idea of absolute oneness (Advaita) may be compatible with the idea of fundamental oneness and difference (Achintya Bhedabheda).

 

Anyway, when there's both oneness and difference, God must be 'the oneness'. Agreed? And according to Prabhupada's purport of BG 4.24: "Everything becomes one in the Absolute, the Supreme Brahman" (http://vedabase.net/bg/4/24/en). Thus Brahman is God. Therefore, Vishnu/Krishna either is Brahman (Absolute God) or He is not Brahman. But He certainly cannot be the basis of Brahman. This is just a plain and simple logical conclusion derived directly from Prabhupada's purport of BG 4.24, which contradicts his purport of BG 14.27: "Krishna is the basis of Brahman" (http://vedabase.net/bg/14/27/en).

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Krsna says:

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 9.17

 

pitāham asya jagato

 

mātā dhātā pitāmahaḥ

 

vedyaḿ pavitram oḿkāra

 

ṛk sāma yajur eva ca

 

SYNONYMS

 

pitā — father; aham — I; asya — of this; jagataḥ — universe; mātā — mother; dhātā — supporter; pitāmahaḥ — grandfather; vedyam — what is to be known; pavitram — that which purifies; oḿ-kāra — the syllable oḿ; ṛk — the Ṛg Veda; sāma — the Sāma Veda; yajuḥ — the Yajur Veda; eva — certainly; ca — and.

 

TRANSLATION

 

I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable oḿ. I am also the Ṛg, the Sāma and the Yajur Vedas.

 

PURPORT

 

The entire cosmic manifestations, moving and nonmoving, are manifested by different activities of Kṛṣṇa's energy. In the material existence we create different relationships with different living entities who are nothing but Kṛṣṇa's marginal energy; under the creation of prakṛti some of them appear as our father, mother, grandfather, creator, etc., but actually they are parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa. As such, these living entities who appear to be our father, mother, etc., are nothing but Kṛṣṇa. In this verse the word dhātā means "creator." Not only are our father and mother parts and parcels of Kṛṣṇa, but the creator, grandmother and grandfather, etc., are also Kṛṣṇa. Actually any living entity, being part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, is Kṛṣṇa. All the Vedas, therefore, aim only toward Kṛṣṇa. Whatever we want to know through the Vedas is but a progressive step toward understanding Kṛṣṇa. That subject matter which helps us purify our constitutional position is especially Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, the living entity who is inquisitive to understand all Vedic principles is also part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa and as such is also Kṛṣṇa. In all the Vedic mantras the word oḿ, called praṇava, is a transcendental sound vibration and is also Kṛṣṇa. And because in all the hymns of the four Vedas — Sāma, Yajur, Ṛg and Atharva — the praṇava, or oḿkāra, is very prominent, it is understood to be Kṛṣṇa.

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“The whole cosmic order is under me. By my will it is manifested again and again, and by my will it is annihilated at the end” (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 9.8)

 

“Furthermore, O Arjuna, I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being, moving or unmoving, that can exist without me” (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 10.39)

 

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts"(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 10.8)

 

"Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution" (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 7.6)

 

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"I give heat, and I withhold and send forth the rain" (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 9.19)

 

“With a single fragment of myself I pervade and support this entire universe”(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 10.42)

 

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“The splendor of the sun, which dissipates the darkness of the whole world, comes from me. And the splendor of the moon and the splendor of fire are also from me” (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 15.12)

 

“I enter into each planet, and by energy they stay in orbit” (Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 15.13)

 

“This material nature, which is one of my energies is working under my direction”(Lord Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 9.10)

 

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