this to happen in GAZAH

[Narasingh]

 

Have you ever been to Ghaza? Very few unpopulated areas there... it is just one big ghetto full of miserable people... And of course you and other Israel apologists would like the Palestinians to lay low while Jews steal their land and kill their people as they please. Or at least come out in the open and allow themselves to be destroyed in one aerial carpet bombing.

 

Israel is a terrorist country, just like Hamas is a terrorist organization. They both use sheer terror on the civilian population to accomplish their dirty goals.

 

The ratio has always been 100 dead Palestinians for one dead Jew. This time is no exception. These people are common war criminals, and they get away with murder because they have a big attack dog on the leash: USA.

 

War is criminal, friend. Indiscriminately lodging rocket attacks into populated areas just doesn't cut it to be called civilized and socially well-adjusted. I'm sorry, I just don't buy this philosophy. Would it make you feel better if Israel would place in writing, in its constitution, the goal to wipe of the face of this earth the "nation of Palestine"? Would it make you feel better if Israel sent random rockets of equal magnitude as Hamas into Gazah? Would it make you feel better if Israel sent suicide bombers into the Gazah marketplaces to indiscriminately kill men, women and children?

 

 

This type of rational justification for violence, based on proportionate numbers of fatalities and collateral damage, is precisely the type of attitude which instigates a continual, perpetual violent clash in the world. Should we be happy, or even content with a 1:1 ratio of fatality? This viewpoint is the principle reason why terrorism exists today. You are counting numbers, not looking toward the cause. What a shame!!!

[Narasingh]

 

Or at least come out in the open and allow themselves to be destroyed in one aerial carpet bombing.

Either you fight with honor or you don't. You want to pick up a weapon and fight, you're naturally going to try to find a way to make it efficient. Some fire from behind a shield of children, and others drop BIG bombs to take out the whole variable.

 

Historically, the very notion of Palestinian people and Palestinian homeland is equally as ambiguous as the Jewish people and a Jewish homeland. The wealthy land-owners under the Ottoman-Turk empire (not Palestinian nationality) sold land to Jews who desired to relocate and create a Jewish community which they can call their own. It wasn't an issue till the local serfs realized that this was a rapidly evolving Jewish community that they decided to create an Arab state as well. East and West Palestine were the two original names for the areas. The rest is history. Now, one group of people vow to extinguish another group at the cost of non-combatant's lives (including children). The other group is ready to establish its right to survivorship at the cost of the lives of non-combatants (including children)

:pray:We can only pray for compassion:pray:

[bhaktajan]

Thank you moderator for deleting my post [#20] --so that I may stay aloof and ready to capture all the first-reel-releases on my video recorder-- between, "now a word from our sponsors".

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"...The very notion of Palestinian people and Palestinian homeland is equally as ambiguous as the Jewish people and a Jewish homeland..."

 

The First Temple was built by King Solomon [not Sulayman] in seven years during the 10th century BCE, culminating in 960 BCE.

 

This First Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians in 587 BCE.

 

The re-building of the [2nd temple] was begun in 537 BCE; after a hiatus, work resumed 520 BCE, with completion occurring in 516 BCE and dedication in 515.

 

As described in the Book of Ezra, rebuilding of the Temple was authorized by Cyrus the Great and ratified by Darius the Great.

It was subsequently destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE (see The Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE).

This second Temple had been desecrated by Pompey, when he entered it after taking Jerusalem in 63 BCE

Five centuries later, this Second Temple was renovated by Herod the Great in about 20 BCE.

 

The ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comTemple</st1:City> <ST1:PlaceType w:st="on">Mount</ST1:PlaceType> <ST1:PlaceName w:st="on">Site</ST1:PlaceName> of Solomon's <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1:PlaceName w:st="on">First</ST1:PlaceName> <ST1:PlaceType w:st="on">Temple is now the site of </ST1:PlaceType></st1:place>The Muslem "Al-Haram-al-Sharif" the Dome of the Rock and The Muslem "Al-Aqsa Mosque":

 

The Dome of the Rock, also known as the Mosque of Omar, is one of the most recognisable and iconic buildings in the world and was built by Muslim ruler Abd el-Malik between 688-691.

The original Al-Aqsa Mosque was built by the Umayyads, an early Islamic dynasty, in 710 CE on the south side of the Temple Mount.

 

 

 

PS: El Escorial, in Spain, was constructed from a plan based on the descriptions of Solomon's temple.

[Narasingh]

The argument over who has rights to the land dates back prior to the Philistines and King David. There is some history which supports that they were in the area before the Jews settled there. Read the histories and you'll see that it was just as chaotic then (if not more) as it is now. The control over the land changed hands a multitude of times to date. As I said before, it is equally ambiguous as to who had original rights since there was so much conquest. The first "peaceful" acquisition of the land there seems to have happened once the Jews started considering the notion of Zionism and began purchasing land from the previous land owners in a mutually agreeable way rather than to kill the previous land owners. The rest is history, and now we are bombing non-combatants on both sides

[Narasingh]

al-Aqsa is an Islamic holy place in the Old City of Jerusalem. The mosque itself forms part of the al-Haram ash-Sharif or "Sacred Noble Sanctuary", a site also known as the Temple Mount and considered the holiest site in Judaism, since it is believed to be where the Temple in Jerusalem once stood.

An interesting bit of accusation of cultural insensitivity. The Babri mosque in Ayodhya suspiciously has the same accusation leveled at it. Oh, and I almost forgot, it continues to this day with the Taliban destroying effigees of the Buddha erected during the Ashoka period. Whats with that?!? I'm not saying to drop bombs but still ... Why destroy places of other's worship and erect your own on top? Is that a requirement of the Quran?

[theist]

 

An interesting bit of accusation of cultural insensitivity. The Babri mosque in Ayodhya suspiciously has the same accusation leveled at it. Oh, and I almost forgot, it continues to this day with the Taliban destroying effigees of the Buddha erected during the Ashoka period. Whats with that?!? I'm not saying to drop bombs but still ... Why destroy places of other's worship and erect your own on top? Is that a requirement of the Quran?

 

 

Also Krishna's birthplace in Mathura now has a Mosque on it.

[chandu_69]

Hamas MP Fathi Hammad: We Used Women and Children as Human Shields

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1710.htm

Who is to be blamed here for death of civilians

israel or Hamas?.

On the other hand hamas stated policy is to kill israeli citizens:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5454204.ece

and phased destruction of the Jewish state:

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1229777020070312

"

GAZA (Reuters) - The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas rejected on Monday criticism by al Qaeda's second-in-command and said it was still committed to Israel's destruction despite a power-sharing deal with the Fatah faction.

"We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine," Hamas said in a statement, in a clear reference to Israel as well as to the occupied West Bank."

 

All the above material given in links are statements of Hamas, not opinions of some weirdo analysts

[theist]

If it wasn't for Hamas there would be already be a recognized state of Palestine.

[chandu_69]

 

For sure. That shows the truth of the situation perfectly

 

Perfect, indeed.

[chandu_69]

 

An interesting bit of accusation of cultural insensitivity. The Babri mosque in Ayodhya suspiciously has the same accusation leveled at it. Oh, and I almost forgot, it continues to this day with the Taliban destroying effigees of the Buddha erected during the Ashoka period. Whats with that?!? I'm not saying to drop bombs but still ... Why destroy places of other's worship and erect your own on top? Is that a requirement of the Quran?

 

Destroying idols and polytheists places of worship is the example set by muhammad.Btw christians are also deemed polytheists because of their worshipping jesus(son of god).There is explicit mention of this(about jesus worship) in quran

[Kulapavana]

 

Would it make you feel better if Israel sent suicide bombers into the Gazah marketplaces to indiscriminately kill men, women and children?

 

Israelis dont have to use suicide bombers. They do the same thing (killing innocent people) with their bombs and rockets. Every time they butcher a bunch of innocent people they say that there was a terrorist among them. No proof of anything needed - they kill whoever they want. How is that honorable fighting?

 

I do not defend the Hamas. Read again what I wrote, especially this part: "Israel is a terrorist country, just like Hamas is a terrorist organization. They both use sheer terror on the civilian population to accomplish their dirty goals."

 

These people deserve each other. The state of Israel was started by imported Jewish terrorists, and is still maintained by terrorism. Their terrorist tactics and stealing land from it's rightful owners CAUSES Palestinian terrorism. They even abandoned their own religious principle of 'an eye for an eye' - now it is 'a hundred Arab eyes for one Jewish eye'... veeeeery just and honorable....

[Kulapavana]

 

Destroying idols and polytheists places of worship is the example set by muhammad.

 

Not true... it started during the time of Moses and was written into the religion of all these people: Christians, Moslems, and Jews.

[chandu_69]

 

Not true... it started during the time of Moses and was written into the religion of all these people: Christians, Moslems, and Jews.

 

True.i was referring to the basis for Hamas and other like minded terror organisations and also responding to narasinga.

[Narasingh]

 

Israelis dont have to use suicide bombers. They do the same thing (killing innocent people) with their bombs and rockets. Every time they butcher a bunch of innocent people they say that there was a terrorist among them. No proof of anything needed - they kill whoever they want. How is that honorable fighting?

 

I do not defend the Hamas. Read again what I wrote, especially this part: "Israel is a terrorist country, just like Hamas is a terrorist organization. They both use sheer terror on the civilian population to accomplish their dirty goals."

 

These people deserve each other. The state of Israel was started by imported Jewish terrorists, and is still maintained by terrorism. Their terrorist tactics and stealing land from it's rightful owners CAUSES Palestinian terrorism. They even abandoned their own religious principle of 'an eye for an eye' - now it is 'a hundred Arab eyes for one Jewish eye'... veeeeery just and honorable....

What I was getting at was the question of whether or not one should be happier with mirrored warfare. Should the "Israelis" start suicide missions, should they launch relatively less powerful rockets indiscriminately, should they blatantly vow the annihilation of the "Palestinian" people? We seem to be in agreement regarding the terror of warfare. Where we are not in agreement is statements like this...

 

The state of Israel was started by imported Jewish terrorists, and is still maintained by terrorism.

This statement is arguably without substance. Do your history research not anti-apologist research. Yes, the people who re-settled in the area were fed up with being victims of world hate based solely on demography. They wanted the freedom and authority to defend themselves against hate and repression. The first wave of immigration happened back in 1882. In June of 1916 the Arabs wanted succession from the Ottoman Turk empire and to start their own nationality in sync with the Jews. Initially it was a harmonious and cooperative endeavor. Later there were skirmishes with differences. I can provide you details if you'd like. However, you can also find out for yourself.

 

They deserve better. Both. If we didn't have impotent world leaders this wouldn't be happening. Israel has been asking for world leaders to come up with a truce which would secure them from these random attacks but one has yet to be offered and accepted.

 

What we really need are capable world leaders. Want to apply for the job?

[Kulapavana]

 

This statement is arguably without substance.

 

Here is a sample:

 

The Irgun was the armed expression of the nascent ideology of Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. He expressed this ideology as "every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs and the British; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-0>[1]</SUP> Over time the focus of their actions shifted from the Palestinian Arabs to the British.<SUP class="noprint Template-Fact">[citation needed]</SUP>

Some of the better-known attacks by Irgun were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with the Stern Gang) on 9 April 1948. In the West, Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times newspaper,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-1>[2]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-2>[3]</SUP>, The Times (of London) <SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-LTimes1_3-0>[4]</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-4>[5]</SUP>, the British Broadcasting Corporation <SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-bbcprofile_5-0>[6]</SUP>, the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-6>[7]</SUP>

<SUP></SUP>

Many of the early Jewish terrorists were trained in Stalin's Russia or were deserters from Allied military outfits (like Menachem Begin). Their importance to the forming of Israel was recognized by the posts they later held in it's government (the Irgun chief terrorist Begin was later one of their Prime Ministers).

 

<SUP></SUP>

[Narasingh]

 

Here is a sample:

 

The Irgun was the armed expression of the nascent ideology of Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. He expressed this ideology as "every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs and the British; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-0">[1]</sup> Over time the focus of their actions shifted from the Palestinian Arabs to the British.<sup class="noprint Template-Fact">[citation needed]</sup>

Some of the better-known attacks by Irgun were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with the Stern Gang) on 9 April 1948. In the West, Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times newspaper,<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-1">[2]</sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-2">[3]</sup>, The Times (of London) <sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-LTimes1_3-0">[4]</sup><sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-4">[5]</sup>, the British Broadcasting Corporation <sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-bbcprofile_5-0">[6]</sup>, the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-6">[7]</sup>

 

Many of the early Jewish terrorists were trained in Stalin's Russia or were deserters from Allied military outfits (like Menachem Begin). Their importance to the forming of Israel was recognized by the posts they later held in it's government (the Irgun chief terrorist Begin was later one of their Prime Ministers).

 

 

Friend, I am sorry, your history does not go back far enough. The Jews began their first Aliyah toward Jerusalem back in the early 1880's. The Irgun came into being in the early 1930's. Many issues took place during that span of 50 years.

 

only active retaliation would deter the Arabs and the British;

From what???

 

Please do some more research. The Irgun was a militant fraction of the Jewish population. Many Jews condemned their activities, just as, I'm sure, many Muslims condemn Hamas' activities.

 

The Jews who had martial skills were not trained under Stalin's Russia but were trained in Jewish Self-Defense Groups as a response to the Eastern European Pogroms (or Jewish massacres) or as part of the Allied forces.

 

Many Arab terrorists (10,000 strong) and armies were trained in Hitler's Nazi Military or were highly supportive of the Nazi Party. This includes the "Mufti" Amin al-Husseini. Considered the father of Palestine and the elected president of the Supreme Muslim Council and also recorded as saying,

"Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."

 

During the "Nebi Musa/Bloody Passover" Riots, on April 4 1920, the Jews were attacked by Arabs chanting: "Kill the Jews" and "Palestine is our land, the Jews are our dogs". They still chant this slogan to this day. These riots were a protest to the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

 

Haj Amin al-Husseini emerged as one of the leaders of the 1920 Arab riots in Palestine and incited the masses to murder Jews and loot their homes. While only in his late twenties, he became the youngest ever Mufti of Jerusalem in 1921, supported by the British.

 

Previous to these riots, in Jan. 1919, Emir Feisal Hussein, the son of the ruler of Mecca was in agreement with the national aspirations of Zionism as he felt that it complemented the notion of an Arab nationalism. He signed an agreement with Zionists.

 

Oddly, while Feisal was supportive of a Zionist cause, al-Husseini (who would later be an outspoken proponant of Palestine nationalism) insisted that Palestine should be considered part of Syria.

 

It becomes apparent that fire is fought with fire.

[suchandra]

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