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...common ground...

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Religious HarmonyreligiousHarmony.gif

Religion and gratitude are connected in two ways:

  1. The very core of every religious tradition is gratefulness; and,
  2. if we have caught on to this basic unity of all religions, we will be grateful for the variety by which they express and celebrate their shared essence.
This provides a firm basis for religious harmony.

 

Thankfulness is a virtue highly praised by all religious people. But gratefulness goes even further. As the mystical essence at the heart of every spiritual tradition, gratefulness unites different religions at their very center. Each tradition flows from its source in the founder’s own experience of communion with ultimate mystery. This experience wells up again and again in the hearts of all followers throughout the generations. It finds expression in the full response to life as gift, which is nothing other than grateful living.

 

We humans experience spiritual reality under three aspects: as the unfathomable mystery that surrounds and transcends our life, as our own innermost being, and as the life breath and love energy that flows through the universe and holds all things in harmony. Different traditions emphasize different aspects of this continuum. This alone creates a great diversity, within which historical, geographic, and cultural conditions make for amazingly rich variations.

 

The closer we are to the heart of our own tradition, the more freely we will appreciate the forms in which others celebrate the supreme mystery for which every human heart longs.

 

 

 

taken from gratefulness.org

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Hare Krsna

 

Here's harmony,,,

 

PURPORT

To effect the perfection of human life there is cooperation between men and demigods, sages, denizens of the Pitriloka, devotees of the Lord and the scientific system of varna and asrama orders of life. The distinction between human life and animal life therefore begins with the scientific system of varna and asrama, guided by the experience of the sages in relation with the demigods, gradually rising to the summit of reestablishing our eternal relation with the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna. When God-made varnasrama-dharma, which is strictly meant for developing animal consciousness into human consciousness and human consciousness into godly consciousness, is broken by advancement of foolishness, the whole system of peaceful and progressive life is at once disturbed. In the age of Kali, the first attack of the venomous snake strikes against the God-made varnasrama-dharma, and thus a person properly qualified as a brahmana is called a sudra, and a sudra by qualification is passing as a brahmana, all on a false birthright claim. To become a brahmana by a birthright claim is not at all bona fide, although it may be a fulfillment of one of the conditions. But the real qualification of a brahmana is to control the mind and the senses, and to cultivate tolerance, simplicity, cleanliness, knowledge, truthfulness, devotion and faith in the Vedic wisdom. In the present age, consideration of the necessary qualification is being neglected, and the false birthright claim is being supported even by a popular, sophisticated poet, the author of Rama-carita-manasa.

This is all due to the influence of the age of Kali. Thus mother earth, represented as a cow, was lamenting the regrettable condition.

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Are you suggesting Bhaktatraveller that there will only be harmony in this world when a world-wide varna-ashrama system is in place?

 

If that is the case, how will it be implemented? And will the process of implementation (for such a diverse world) be a harmonious affair? I am a bit cautious when people consider their way the only way.

 

Or was Srila Prabhupada hoping to have it implemented in smaller scale farm communities, so that the bigger world could see its good effect, and then follow suite? For many years I aspired to live in such a place, but unfortunately there was no such place and the places that be were super-selective.

 

I am of the opinion that a functioning varna-ashrama farm living Krsna consciousness well, would be nice to see (and to live within). And very beneficial for the surrounding communities and area. But I also feel an individual heart felt life full of gratitude inspires others? Maybe times have changed in the world, or as you suggest kali has set in (is a one world system possible - is that what the rishis envisioned for today)?

 

These days Bhakta I am not sure I desire to follow the way that considers the world to be stuffed with a poor future (degrading kali). If that is what we think, that may well be what we get! I would rather live with hope for the future... and live well... with a practical positive outlook to life... and discover the gift of consciousness and its potential.

 

What do you think. (please do not use forceful or condemning speech or I will not be covinced)

 

Some thoughts from your heart Mark, backed with Prabhupada quotes would be appreciated.

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Hmmmm... we have a resteraunt in town called Grateful. Strictly vegan. Wonder if it's connected somehow.

This is the teacher Theist, David Steindl-Rast O.S.B...I am not a follower of his totally, but do appreciate his views very much (a nice compliment to a devotional life). He often speaks in conferences with other people about modern consciousness research - Esalen Institute, Noetic Science, places like that..

 

 

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Are you suggesting Bhaktatraveller that there will only be harmony in this world when a world-wide varna-ashrama system is in place?

 

If that is the case, how will it be implemented? And will the process of implementation (for such a diverse world) be a harmonious affair? I am a bit cautious when people consider their way the only way.

 

I'm with you Bija in this world however, if we become Krishna conscious, isn't it a possibility without that dreaded inbred human fear of totalitarianism, facism, didtatorships and peronality selfish 'worship me' cults (like that clever dictator ***** Swami and his cronnie 'yes men')

that some ISKCON hoodoo gurus have been guiltly in the past (666?)

 

Srila Prabhupada "In this present day, man is very eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation.

 

Srila Prabhupada "So let there beone common scripture for the whole world--Bhagavad-gita. And let there be one God only for the whole world--Sri Krishna. And one mantra only--Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And let there be one work only--the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.Srila Prabhupada's lectures on Bhagavad-gita

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For years Sarva I kept it simple (if somewhat naieve)...devotion being the common ground. But after years associating at audarya fellowship I realized not all think that way.

 

Now I am beginning to realize that devotion sprouts many diverse fruits in the heart, even in its budding stage. And that the diversity and beauty of life is full of complexity. I feel that convergence is definitely possible for the human race...rather than divergence. I believe there is evidence of this in the world today. I believe that is our great hope - as evolved conscious human beings.

 

(ofcourse my mind is bias from seeing the horrors of ideology on the nightly news night after night - so am cautious of ideology)

 

 

if we become Krishna conscious, isn't it a possibility

Yes, if God consciousness is deep, and free of the unnecessary. And full of its true potential. Maybe Mark is suggesting a clutter free life, by implementing varna-ashrama.

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Are you suggesting Bhaktatraveller that there will only be harmony in this world when a world-wide varna-ashrama system is in place?

 

If that is the case, how will it be implemented? And will the process of implementation (for such a diverse world) be a harmonious affair? I am a bit cautious when people consider their way the only way.

 

Or was Srila Prabhupada hoping to have it implemented in smaller scale farm communities, so that the bigger world could see its good effect, and then follow suite? For many years I aspired to live in such a place, but unfortunately there was no such place and the places that be were super-selective.

 

I am of the opinion that a functioning varna-ashrama farm living Krsna consciousness well, would be nice to see (and to live within). And very beneficial for the surrounding communities and area. But I also feel an individual heart felt life full of gratitude inspires others? Maybe times have changed in the world, or as you suggest kali has set in (is a one world system possible - is that what the rishis envisioned for today)?

 

These days Bhakta I am not sure I desire to follow the way that considers the world to be stuffed with a poor future (degrading kali). If that is what we think, that may well be what we get! I would rather live with hope for the future... and live well... with a practical positive outlook to life... and discover the gift of consciousness and its potential.

 

What do you think. (please do not use forceful or condemning speech or I will not be covinced)

 

Some thoughts from your heart Mark, backed with Prabhupada quotes would be appreciated.

 

Hare Krsna All!

 

I'm just trolling for like minded devotees of DVD.

 

The start is to know your own varna, always start at the begining and that is yourself. Know your varna, know your asrama.

 

Implementation is the cooperation amoung varnas and asramas. Be honest not to take asrama or varana, what is not yours. Srila Prabhupada said to begin in the pressent day(74') city and farm temples. In other words it is about individuals cooperation, not just farms, in the city temples too.

 

At this point I think only nessesity will be the mother of surender and cooperation. I do not fore see anything more than simple talk coming out of this post.

 

Living together has now been lost by a planed contrivence from your pressent day leadership. Harivilas once told me that there will be no more open asramas in ISKCON that they(GBC) were creating a karmi church like environment on purpose. Because to have a spirirtual commune was to hard for the cheaters to control. Divide and conquer don't you know?

 

I think the proverbial rug has to be pulled out from underneath every devotee for any real implimentation by division of work and life style to take place amoung them. Just like Americans will have to have guns in there faces held by the very army their tax dollars support before they will get it that all freedom is gone in these here dis-united states and hell is just around the corner!

 

Do you people know that we are 2 states away from a Constitusional Convention? That is to rewrite the constitution of the united states! Here comes the stinky stuff! LOL.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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I don't know much about american convention;).

 

Years ago Mark I approached an Iskcon farm (almost ten years ago) to see if it was possible to move in that direction and lifestyle. There was one very nice devotee there, so I asked him about varna-ashrama lifestyle, and how would I fit into it. Becuase at that stage I knew my disposition was dairy hand and cleaning etc. I had worked milking cows previously and relished the work.

 

From the response I received, it was obvious that there was no varna-ashram system in place. And far from being actualized.

 

You are so right you know, that we each need to be aware of our station and skill. This is a great key to harmony. I can see Srila Prabhupada's vision in this regard. Even the concepts of kali puja etc that you quoted in another thread at audarya. He was broad in vision hey?

 

There is one farm community being established some hours away from here. Funds are low and they are offering some accomodation services to raise money. They seem to be open to people coming and investigating the life-style and learning. With a theme of un-cluttered living to focus on the main thing. Definately a long term vision...

 

One of the main people there, is a very nice brahmana and extremely kind. An exceptional person actually. Maybe Mark, that is where the secret to success lies in community? With Krsna conscious brahmanas giving guidance. Catering for all needs and dispositions in their council. Like Srila Prabhupada did (as far as I know).

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I think the proverbial rug has to be pulled out from underneath every devotee for any real implimentation by division of work and life style to take place amoung them. J

Nature seems to pull the rug often, in one way or another. Sometimes if that is 'intense experience' then we may redefine what life is all about, for sure. I feel Bhakta, that such things are around the corner for many...

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I don't know much about american convention;).

 

Years ago Mark I approached an Iskcon farm (almost ten years ago) to see if it was possible to move in that direction and lifestyle. There was one very nice devotee there, so I asked him about varna-ashrama lifestyle, and how would I fit into it. Becuase at that stage I knew my disposition was dairy hand and cleaning etc. I had worked milking cows previously and relished the work.

 

From the response I received, it was obvious that there was no varna-ashram system in place. And far from being actualized.

 

You are so right you know, that we each need to be aware of our station and skill. This is a great key to harmony. I can see Srila Prabhupada's vision in this regard. Even the concepts of kali puja etc that you quoted in another thread at audarya. He was broad in vision hey?

 

There is one farm community being established some hours away from here. Funds are low and they are offering some accomodation services to raise money. They seem to be open to people coming and investigating the life-style and learning. With a theme of un-cluttered living to focus on the main thing. Definately a long term vision...

 

One of the main people there, is a very nice brahmana and extremely kind. An exceptional person actually. Maybe Mark, that is where the secret to success lies in community? With Krsna conscious brahmanas giving guidance. Catering for all needs and dispositions in their council. Like Srila Prabhupada did (as far as I know).

In the beginning of ISKCON, all there was , was Book distribution, Deity worship, buying Temples, Spiritual Sky, and any other way to make money buy hook or crook' as Prabhupada encouraged us to do. WHY? Because we were laying the foundations of a movement to last 10,000 years. Back then we bought all our major Temples and farms. The varna asrama was there in imitation and ‘talk’ only. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Everyone was encouraged to be a book distributor, if you could not distribute books, it was very hard to be a Temple devotee back then. The Book distributors were the demigods of ISKCON in those days, better than the lowly pot washer, pujari, the ‘fringes’ as buddhi and the boys called them, at Spiritual Sky.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

In 1973, Chittahari called me from Sydney Temple to go to Adelaide to ‘pick the bone’ (ISKCON slang for collecting money selling books.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

So I went to Adelaide and at first sold hundreds of books, collecting $150 or more dollars a day, a lot of bread (Luxmi) back in those days. Anyway after a few weeks my ‘pick’ went down to $90 a day, then 60, then 40 then going to the city library to read the Mahabharata. I was fried and just could not keep up the momentum. Chittahari was furious when I came back with no money and rang Madhudvisa to complain. He put me on pot washing duty as punishment and you know I was far happier washing pots than selling books 24/7. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

I clearly understood the great importance of book distribution as laying the foundations down, my greatest ecstasy ever was selling the Krsna Book trilogy with Buddhimanta, Balarama ect that night in late 1973, we took over down Town Melbourne and I will never forget that everywhere I looked, EVERYONE was carrying the Krishna Book trilogy. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

That night we went back to Burnet street Temple in St,kilda and everyone was counting their ‘pick’, then Buddhimanta picked up a wad of $20 notes and through them at Yasomatinandana and then he through his money at Balarama and Hari Sauri. Buddhi also grabbed all the money from others and used me as a money tree, burying me in all this money.

 

How much was it?

 

Well within six months we bought the new Melbourne Temple that today is valued at $11,000,000<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The fact is, we are still pioneers and book distribution is more important than the material designations of Varna or Asrama

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I don't know much about american convention;).

 

Years ago Mark I approached an Iskcon farm (almost ten years ago) to see if it was possible to move in that direction and lifestyle. There was one very nice devotee there, so I asked him about varna-ashrama lifestyle, and how would I fit into it. Becuase at that stage I knew my disposition was dairy hand and cleaning etc. I had worked milking cows previously and relished the work.

 

From the response I received, it was obvious that there was no varna-ashram system in place. And far from being actualized.

 

You are so right you know, that we each need to be aware of our station and skill. This is a great key to harmony. I can see Srila Prabhupada's vision in this regard. Even the concepts of kali puja etc that you quoted in another thread at audarya. He was broad in vision hey?

 

There is one farm community being established some hours away from here. Funds are low and they are offering some accomodation services to raise money. They seem to be open to people coming and investigating the life-style and learning. With a theme of un-cluttered living to focus on the main thing. Definately a long term vision...

 

One of the main people there, is a very nice brahmana and extremely kind. An exceptional person actually. Maybe Mark, that is where the secret to success lies in community? With Krsna conscious brahmanas giving guidance. Catering for all needs and dispositions in their council. Like Srila Prabhupada did (as far as I know).

 

Hare Krsna Bija prabhu

 

I am Caturbahu das(RCB), not Mark, my bestest friend in the whole world that I met here on line at this fourm DVD trolling 2 yrs ago.

 

Yes, your right about any and all ISKCON related prejects, not DVD centered, that includes everything in India too. Any outside devotee co-op's that would be DVD are going to be very pioneering in mood, to say the least. No money, lots of cross varna action, mostly sudra. Because the majority are sudra and the farm life is very labor intensive by nature.

 

I live in Alachua and have talked to mostly every one I can corral and no one is interested as Srila Prabhupada explains it. Hell the big smelly cheese Tamohara will not even sit with me and books for a pow-wow. I have know this person sense the deities were instaled here in 74'! Typical! They are just comfortable with pretents and not substance. Soon though they will have their collective hands full with the symptoms of a great depression far beyond what the last one was. Why? because 80% of the population lived on mostly food sufficient farms back in the 30's. Now it is 85% in the cities and the rest, 15% on factory type industrial farms, very dependant on heavy metal machines run by the black blood of the earth. With cemical coctails masqueradeing as fertilizer. Very little food is being produce individually for personal consumption, big mistake. On the devotees part too!

 

Yeah, there's hell to pay even for the devotees that rejected this beutifull solution to the continous fall down of the brahmanas that the movement was supposted to be contructed with. From 74' on it was to be a DVD movement, changed to the laws of 8(4 varnas + 4 asramas)

 

You want leadership? You have to have a ksatriya. Prabhupada is the consumate brahman. The rest of DVD will fall into place with that common ground.....SB. 1.17.45

 

TRANSLATION

Maharaja Parikshit, the son of Abhimanyu, is so experienced that by dint of his expert administration and patronage, it has been possible for you to perform a sacrifice such as this.

 

PURPORT

The brahmanas and the sannyasis are expert in the spiritual advancement of society, whereas the kshatriyas or the administrators are expert in the material peace and prosperity of human society. Both of them are the pillars of all happiness, and therefore they are meant for full cooperation for common welfare. Maharaja Parikshit was experienced enough to drive away Kali from his field of activities and thereby make the state receptive to spiritual enlightenment. If the common people are not receptive, it is very difficult to impress upon them the necessity of spiritual enlightenment. Austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, the basic principles of religion, prepare the ground for the reception of advancement in spiritual knowledge, and Maharaja Parikshit made this favorable condition possible. Thus the rishis of Naimisharanya were able to perform the sacrifices for a thousand years. In other words, without state support, no doctrines of philosophy or religious principles can progressively advance. There should be complete cooperation between the brahmanas and the kshatriyas for this common good. Even up to Maharaja Asoka, the same spirit was prevailing. Lord Buddha was sufficiently supported by King Asoka, and thus his particular cult of knowledge was spread all over the world.

 

SB. 2.5.37

 

TRANSLATION

The brahmanas represent His mouth, the kshatriyas His arms, the vaisyas His thighs, and the sudras are born of His legs.

PURPORT

All living beings are stated to be the parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, and how they are so is explained in this verse. The four divisions of human society, namely the intelligent class (the brahmanas), the administrative class (the kshatriyas), the mercantile class (the vaisyas), and the laborer class (the sudras), are all in different parts of the body of the Lord. As such, no one is different from the Lord. The mouth of the body and the legs of the body are nondifferent constitutionally, but the mouth or the head of the body is qualitatively more important than the legs. At the same time, the mouth, the legs, the arms and the thighs are all component parts of the body. These limbs of the body of the Lord are meant to serve the complete whole. The mouth is meant for speaking and eating, the arms are meant for the protection of the body, the legs are meant for carrying the body, and the waist of the body is meant for maintaining the body. The intelligent class in society, therefore, must speak on behalf of the body, as well as accept foodstuff to satisfy the hunger of the body. The hunger of the Lord is to accept the fruits of sacrifice. The brahmanas, or the intelligent class, must be very expert in performing such sacrifices, and the subordinate classes must join in such sacrifices. To speak for the Supreme Lord means to glorify the Lord by means of propagating the knowledge of the Lord as it is, broadcasting the factual nature of the Lord and the factual position of all other parts of the whole body. The brahmanas, therefore, are required to know the Vedas, or the ultimate source of knowledge. Veda means knowledge, and anta means the end of it. According to Bhagavad-gita, the Lord is the source of everything (aham sarvasya prabhavah), and thus the end of all knowledge (Vedanta) is to know the Lord, to know our relationship with Him and to act according to that relationship only. The parts of the body are related to the body; similarly, the living being must know his relationship with the Lord. The human life is especially meant for this purpose, namely to know the factual relationship of every living being with the Supreme Lord. Without knowing this relationship, the human life is spoiled. The intelligent class of men, the brahmanas, are therefore especially responsible for broadcasting this knowledge of our relationship with the Lord and leading the general mass of people to the right path. The administrative class is meant for protecting the living beings so that they can serve this purpose; the mercantile class is meant for producing food grains and distributing them to the complete human society so that the whole population is given a chance to live comfortably and discharge the duties of human life. The mercantile class is also required to give protection to the cows in order to get sufficient milk and milk products, which alone can give the proper health and intelligence to maintain a civilization perfectly meant for knowledge of the ultimate truth. And the laborer class, who are neither intelligent nor powerful, can help by physical services to the other higher classes and thus be benefited by their cooperation. Therefore the universe is a complete unit in relationship with the Lord, and without this relationship with the Lord the whole human society is disturbed and is without any peace and prosperity. This is confirmed in the Vedas: brahmano ’sya mukham asid, bahu rajanyah kritah.

 

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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Austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, the basic principles of religion, prepare the ground for the reception of advancement in spiritual knowledge, and Maharaja Parikshit made this favorable condition possible. Thus the rishis of Naimisharanya were able to perform the sacrifices for a thousand years. In other words, without state support, no doctrines of philosophy or religious principles can progressively advance. There should be complete cooperation between the brahmanas and the kshatriyas for this common good. Even up to Maharaja Asoka, the same spirit was prevailing. Lord Buddha was sufficiently supported by King Asoka, and thus his particular cult of knowledge was spread all over the world.

To receive state support, for such a bold transition of society, wouldn't the state itself have to be a reasonable structure? Do you think that the current trends in some societal structures - capitalism being a pinnacle philosophy for example - are strong foundations for such a social transformation?

 

I mean look at the American financial crisis, being bought on by consumer greed. Now countries like Australia (with current leaders that condemn U.S. faults), in all irony, find the only way out of recession is to increase spending!

 

It just doesn't seem a good foundation to build a transformation upon.

 

We really need a transformation in consciousness, even as a collective. Maybe hard times are like birth pains, before the birth of a new child.

 

To have a deeper sense of the sacred may simply mean spending time to find it. Thoughtfulness and quality japa time for example, is very subtle, and yet very powerful...and very transformative. The society, in my opinion, needs time to slow down...so that it can discover the aesthetic of human experience - which is spiritual life (experience).

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<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

The fact is, we are still pioneers and book distribution is more important than the material designations of Varna or Asrama

 

Interesting how you never read those books you gave out. Page after page and Srila Prabhupada will disagree with you.

 

Jagadisa: Is it the duty of the vaisyas to cultivate the fields or...?

 

Prabhupada: Actually it is the duty of the vaisyas, but the sudras can help everyone, the helpers. The sudras will help the brahmanas, the kshatriyas, as well as the vaisyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are sudras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brahmana, kshatriya, or vaisya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying sastras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brahmana. They haven’t got to work as kshatriya, as vaisya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brahmana, with good character.

 

Devotee (1): Distributing books?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaisya, trade. It is a trade. Krishi-go-rakshya-vanijyam [bg. 18.44]. Krishi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaisya. So vaisya does not require any university degree or any... Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brahmana should be very highly learned scholar. So the brahmanas will give advice to the kshatriya how to rule, and the kshatriya will levy tax, and vaisyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.(END)

 

This is another problem/madness, that no one knows how to divide, even Prabhupada says how! Nothing stops, everything continues honestly with no cheating like befor. Or why in hell does Srila Prabhupada say to now divide? Prabhupada says because of cheating amoung the members of ISKCON.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

 

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.(END)

 

Unfortunately you sound like another one just making it up as you go, you can see clearly Prabhupada has different ideas than yours

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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quote=bhaktatraveler]Interesting how you never read those books you gave out. Page after page and Srila Prabhupada will disagree with you.RCB

 

Firstly, you don't even know me, so why the less intelligent statement??secondly I first joined ISKCON at 17 years of age and in those days out duty was to distrbute books and we also had our classes, far more stricter then than now

 

Everone had to attend Bhagavatam class

 

nector of Devotion class at 6.15pm

 

Bhagavad Gita class from 7.30 to 9pm

 

ISKCON had potency back then that is not there today

 

I STAND BY MY COMMENT

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

The fact is, we are still pioneers and book distribution is more important than the material designations of Varna or Asrama

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

meaning that will naturally develop later as ISKCON matures AND STOPS BEING IMMATURE

 

Srila Prabhupada - "First, distribute my books like the allies dropped bombs on Dresden Germany in WW2 and the rest will follow"

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Firstly, you don't even know me, so why the less intelligent statement??secondly I first joined ISKCON at 17 years of age and in those days out duty was to distrbute books and we also had our classes, far more stricter then than now

 

Everone had to attend Bhagavatam class

 

nector of Devotion class at 6.15pm

 

Bhagavad Gita class from 7.30 to 9pm

 

ISKCON had potency back then that is not there today

 

I STAND BY MY COMMENT

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

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The fact is, we are still pioneers and book distribution is more important than the material designations of Varna or Asrama

 

 

 

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meaning that will naturally develop later as ISKCON matures AND STOPS BEING IMMATURE

 

Srila Prabhupada - "First, distribute my books like the allies dropped bombs on Dresden Germany in WW2 and the rest will follow"

 

Well I do know that you have said a thing, that much I know. And it is as immature as ISKCON 35 yrs later having the same immature disposition and retric about DVD. Even that Srila Prabhupada clearly says a thing, you and yours say different. Prabhupada says nothing about later when mature to implement or did I miss somethng? No I did not! This is an example of poison vani. Your picking and choosing according to you mind.

 

 

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

(WAIT! did Prabhupada say later at a time of greater maturity? NO!)

 

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

(Are all Srila Prabhupada's disciples brahmana? NO!)

 

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

(Ah! there the rub, Prabhupada is not stupid, He knows they are fallen and need to now arrange DVD inside ISKCON NOW!)

 

Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

 

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

(You see? you remain in you natural position. Not every one brahman)

 

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

 

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

(Just see the resistents of Hari-sauri, this is not inocent, but an atempt to undermine the instruction. You need to read the hole conversation intact.)

 

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

 

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

 

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.(This not the first time these talks take place, why is Satsvarupa so confused?)

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.(Here it is again, they are fallen, must have DVD now. So it was then, as it is now!)

 

 

ISKCON(greater devotee community included) will NEVER by choice, implement a division of action based on 4 varnas and 4 asramas communally. All just new bhakta's still lost in immature student life, cheating and falling. But claiming Guru leadership and qalities, can't have it both ways!!!!

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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No need to be a Guru. Just let the people whom you associate with know the importance of chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. There`s no other way, no other way says Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in this age of Kaliyuga.

 

Note: However, don`t bother telling this to the followers of Yogananda Paramahamsa. For them, it`s to each his own.

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No need to be a Guru. Just let the people whom you associate with know the importance of chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. There`s no other way, no other way says Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in this age of Kaliyuga.

 

Note: However, don`t bother telling this to the followers of Yogananda Paramahamsa. For them, it`s to each his own.

 

It was either in the Autobiography of a Yogi or Be Here Now, that it says that bhakti yoga was the top most. I stopped reading the book and began looking for bhakti yoga. A step on my journey.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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dear devotees , separatist, perception only not the truth , the truth is ever complete, vedanta , what is this , if not whole , language is a vibration , phonetic kinetic faster than you , words form on your tongue before you know ,when you are conditioned , the bell rings without you knowing , but the sound you make is heard by all , including you , so listen hear the truth of you , if you live in your mind , you speak in your head as thought, instead of off your tongue , krishna dances on your tongue infinitesimal,when you express your love for god , it does show , hari hari , all peoples all creeds , all an expresion of conciousness , within natures dance , do not reject or accept take what is use full, verse is for the curse until the curse is gone , so what of verse if well , the verse speaks this best as rass lila , eternal relationship, cosmic bliss our eternal form , spoke here as love to all , no divisions , or maths to perform , just 9 to one as skin to breath morthic monkey , with rahda and krishna in side jai all atma jiva rahda krishna sing jai prabhupada

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dear devotees , separatist, perception only not the truth , the truth is ever complete, vedanta , what is this , if not whole , language is a vibration , phonetic kinetic faster than you , words form on your tongue before you know ,when you are conditioned , the bell rings without you knowing , but the sound you make is heard by all , including you , so listen hear the truth of you , if you live in your mind , you speak in your head as thought, instead of off your tongue , krishna dances on your tongue infinitesimal,when you express your love for god , it does show , hari hari , all peoples all creeds , all an expresion of conciousness , within natures dance , do not reject or accept take what is use full, verse is for the curse until the curse is gone , so what of verse if well , the verse speaks this best as rass lila , eternal relationship, cosmic bliss our eternal form , spoke here as love to all , no divisions , or maths to perform , just 9 to one as skin to breath morthic monkey , with rahda and krishna in side jai all atma jiva rahda krishna sing jai prabhupada

 

Yes, for you pure devotees this is good!

 

But I'm a conditioned, motivated mutt, my Guru has given me a job and I exicute daily, as I can. So most are like this, then do not cheat, be honest. DVD is for you. This is Srila Prabhupada, you follow as you like, but it is not all one and the same.

 

Variation is self evident. Also in the spiritual world!

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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I know that most of the contributors here are not initiated. They don`t have a Guru. What they have are the books written by His Divine Grace. Truthfully, Guru is in the books prepared for all of us by no other than HIs Divine Grace A,C, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

No need to be initiated in this age of Kaliyuga. Just read by heart Srila Prabhupada what he has to say. Then take it from there.

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Prabhupada says nothing about later when mature to implement or did I miss somethng? No I did not!

 

Can a child go from kingergarden to University over night? Yes, it is possible to be Krishna conscious in a second but for most it will take not only years but generations. Your foolish IMMATURE intelligence cannot understand the fact that maturity is needed FIRST!! TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU QUOTE instead of being a cut and paste parrot - Hare Krsna!

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Can a child go from kingergarden to University over night? Yes, it is possible to be Krishna conscious in a second but for most it will take not only years but generations. Your foolish IMMATURE intelligence cannot understand the fact that maturity is needed FIRST!! TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU QUOTE instead of being a cut and paste parrot - Hare Krsna!

 

 

Poor little boy, I walk my talk. And am realized in what I post! You took an attempt at humility as a low thing, sorry for you. I was more mature walking in the door of ISKCON than most are after decades. I have not been stifled by others neglect.

 

Done with you, waste of time! Sudra is, as sudra speaks.

 

Looking for DVD like mindedness, anyone out there?

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

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in this world however, if we become Krishna conscious, isn't it a possibility without that dreaded inbred human fear of totalitarianism, facism, didtatorships and peronality selfish 'worship me' cults (like that clever dictator ***** Swami and his cronnie 'yes men')

Srila Prabhupada "In this present day, man is very eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation.

 

Srila Prabhupada "So let there beone common scripture for the whole world--Bhagavad-gita. And let there be one God only for the whole world--Sri Krishna. And one mantra only--Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And let there be one work only--the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.Srila Prabhupada's lectures on Bhagavad-gita

 

In the beginning of ISKCON, all there was , was Book distribution, Deity worship, buying Temples, Spiritual Sky, and any other way to make money buy hook or crook' as Prabhupada encouraged us to do. WHY? Because we were laying the foundations of a movement to last 10,000 years. Back then we bought all our major Temples and farms. The varna asrama was there in imitation and ‘talk’ only. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

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Everyone was encouraged to be a book distributor, if you could not distribute books, it was very hard to be a Temple devotee back then. The Book distributors were the demigods of ISKCON in those days, better than the lowly pot washer, pujari, the ‘fringes’ as buddhi and the boys called them, at Spiritual Sky.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

In 1973, Chittahari called me from Sydney Temple to go to Adelaide to ‘pick the bone’ (ISKCON slang for collecting money selling books.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

So I went to Adelaide and at first sold hundreds of books, collecting $150 or more dollars a day, a lot of bread (Luxmi) back in those days. Anyway after a few weeks my ‘pick’ went down to $90 a day, then 60, then 40 then going to the city library to read the Mahabharata. I was fried and just could not keep up the momentum. Chittahari was furious when I came back with no money and rang Madhudvisa to complain. He put me on pot washing duty as punishment and you know I was far happier washing pots than selling books 24/7. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

I clearly understood the great importance of book distribution as laying the foundations down, my greatest ecstasy ever was selling the Krsna Book trilogy with Buddhimanta, Balarama ect that night in late 1973, we took over down Town Melbourne and I will never forget that everywhere I looked, EVERYONE was carrying the Krishna Book trilogy. That night we went back to Burnet street Temple in St,kilda and everyone was counting their ‘pick’, then Buddhimanta picked up a wad of $20 notes and through them at Yasomatinandana and then he through his money at Balarama and Hari Sauri. Buddhi also grabbed all the money from others and used me as a money tree, burying me in all this money.

 

How much was it?

 

Well within six months we bought the new Melbourne Temple that today is valued at $11,000,000<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

The fact is, we are still pioneers and book distribution is more important than the material designations of Varna or Asrama

 

Varna or Asrama is always in socirty because of our different individual talents, not everyone can be a book distributor but I understand its pioneering impotance.

 

 

Originally Posted by bhaktatraveler

I am Caturbahu das(RCB), not Mark, my bestest friend in the whole world that I met here on line at this fourm DVD trolling 2 yrs ago.

 

Yes, your right about any and all ISKCON related prejects, not DVD centered, that includes everything in India too. Any outside devotee co-op's that would be DVD are going to be very pioneering in mood, to say the least. No money, lots of cross varna action, mostly sudra. Because the majority are sudra and the farm life is very labor intensive by nature.

 

I live in Alachua and have talked to mostly every one I can corral and no one is interested as Srila Prabhupada explains it. Hell the big smelly cheese Tamohara will not even sit with me and books for a pow-wow. I have know this person sense the deities were instaled here in 74'! Typical! They are just comfortable with pretents and not substance. Soon though they will have their collective hands full with the symptoms of a great depression far beyond what the last one was. Why? because 80% of the population lived on mostly food sufficient farms back in the 30's. Now it is 85% in the cities and the rest, 15% on factory type industrial farms, very dependant on heavy metal machines run by the black blood of the earth. With cemical coctails masqueradeing as fertilizer. Very little food is being produce individually for personal consumption, big mistake. On the devotees part too!

 

Yeah, there's hell to pay even for the devotees that rejected this beutifull solution to the continous fall down of the brahmanas that the movement was supposted to be contructed with. From 74' on it was to be a DVD movement, changed to the laws of 8(4 varnas + 4 asramas)

 

You want leadership? You have to have a ksatriya. Prabhupada is the consumate brahman. The rest of DVD will fall into place with that common ground.....SB. 1.17.45

 

The start is to know your own varna, always start at the begining and that is yourself. Know your varna, know your asrama.

 

Implementation is the cooperation amoung varnas and asramas. Be honest not to take asrama or varana, what is not yours. Srila Prabhupada said to begin in the pressent day(74') city and farm temples. In other words it is about individuals cooperation, not just farms, in the city temples too.

 

At this point I think only nessesity will be the mother of surender and cooperation. I do not fore see anything more than simple talk coming out of this post.

 

Living together has now been lost by a planed contrivence from your pressent day leadership. Harivilas once told me that there will be no more open asramas in ISKCON that they(GBC) were creating a karmi church like environment on purpose. Because to have a spirirtual commune was to hard for the cheaters to control. Divide and conquer don't you know?

 

I think the proverbial rug has to be pulled out from underneath every devotee for any real implimentation by division of work and life style to take place amoung them. Just like Americans will have to have guns in there faces held by the very army their tax dollars support before they will get it that all freedom is gone in these here dis-united states and hell is just around the corner!

 

Do you people know that we are 2 states away from a Constitusional Convention? That is to rewrite the constitution of the united states! Here comes the stinky stuff! LOL.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

intersting heart felt read, thank you

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