More from the pioneering years of ISKCON's Zonal Acarya days (after 1977)

[Vigraha 0]

 

 

The following is from a book I found on the web written by an unknown author

 

 

"It is only honest here to point out that Srila Sridhar Maharaj from the Gaudiya Math, not only supported the 11 Zonal Acaryas in ISKCON late in 1977, but also encouraged them all to be initiating Spiritual Masters in the mood of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I witnessed this at his Gaudiya math Temple in 1978 when he glorified the new Zonal gurus in ISKCON.

 

Also Narayana Maharaj originally supported and encouraged the 11 gurus, regardless of what he says today. So as far as I am concerned, Narayana Maharaj is just as naive and Spiritually immature as us Godbrothers were who also pushed the 11 guru worship that is really just an imitation of Srila Prabhupada, just like a child imitates their hero.

 

In all fairness though, at least two of them have proven themselves as bonafide Spiritual Masters, Srila Jayapartaka Swami and Srila Hridayananda Swami. They both have past the test of time

Also I remember way back in 1981 Ramai Swami (who was just elected the head of the GBC in 2008), got up and praised his sannyas guru Bhavananda at his Vysa Puj by saying he had specially come from Vaikuntha to save the fallen souls, Ramai had tears in his eyes as he spoke fondly of Bhavananda and was clearly very moved, he had really saw Bhavananda as specially coming down from Vaikuntha to carry on Prabhupada’s work of saving the fallen, this mood he instilled to others who eventually became Bhavananda’s disciples, this was video taped and I still have it in storage.

 

Clearly Ramai Swami had seen Bhavananda in the same light as Prabhupada, a pure devotee put in that position by Krsna.

 

In this way Ramai Swami, Chittahari, Balarama, Yasomatinandana, Pratapana, Hari Sauri, Subabhati, all of us Prabhupada disciples would strongly set the mood, ‘scene and example of worship to Bhavananda, for his new disciples to follow, especially Ramai Swami, who was also kind of a disciple of Bhavananda as well, due to taking sannyas off him.

 

Anyway the extravagant worship us Godbrothers created for Bhavananda, would last until 1986, when unfortunately the whole ‘guru’ thing came crashing down on our heads, resulting in utter confusion where at least one devotee I know of committed suicide.

Personally I never ever went that far to see Bhavananda specially sent from Vaikuntha because to me he was a Godbrother who represented Prabhupada that I blindly followed because I new he was a dear disciple of Srila Prabhupada, my Spiritual Master. I thought at the time however, how Ramai’s ‘over the top’ glorification of his Sannyas guru was eerie but I never said anything.

Bhavananda never ever saw himself as a great devotee, he always new he was playing a role, believing that imitating Prabhupada was his service, he believed that in time he would become purified and gradually become stronger and stronger in his sadhana, so that he could truly act as a Guru. He told me this when he sent me to see an old friend of his and present a garland to him (The famous singer Peter Allen)

 

Later he told me what Ramai had said is simply not true, "I am no pure devotee" telling me the story of how he suffered as a young boy.

 

Yet unfortunately, as years progressed, Bhavananda became more and more intoxicated by the lavish, luxurious, magnificent wealthy worship his Godbrothers set up and supported. Strongly encouraging any new devotee to follow. So gradually he became more and more inebriated proud and arrogant than he already was.

 

I already new in India back in 1978 of Bhavananda's problems with homosexuality, his incident in Mayapur a few years previous was well known in India, but Prabhupada forgave him for his fall down and he worked very hard, doing amazing service in Mayapur, to again get Prabhupada's favour.

 

Could it happen again? One could ask. Those questions were not ever asked back then by anyone like it is today. I did not know in 1978 if he would again have problems in that area when I was Temple commander of Vrndavan, but as early as 1982 I did know, I just new he was again having problems, I think a few of us did, I know Chittahari prabhu did, Bhavananda confided in him. Anyway who was I to judge others? I was struggling myself and ironically everyone new about that to

 

No one back then new what to do with anyone who was having a sexual problem, it was mostly ignored and never talked about. Of course that all changed in the mid 1990"s

 

Anyway in Vrndavana and Mayapur Bhavananda would get me to convince any new devotee that he should be chosen as guru.

 

 

This was happening all over the world with all the appointed gurus

 

It seemed back in those early immature years, to have a ‘hero’, then worship him as a pure devotee, even if he is not qualified, was more important at the time than having no hero at all.

 

This is because the search for paragons is a natural phenomenon within human society, if we cannot find one a qualified Guru, then we unfortunately manufacture one, just like we did after Prabhupada left us, we actually carried on the Guru worship as if Prabhupada had never left.

 

The appointed gurus where not qualified on the level of Prabhupada, yet we would worship them anyway ON THAT LEVEL with the hope they would become qualified, that’s how innocent we were but we genuinly believed that in time, due to the purification process of Bhakti-yoga, they would become pure devotees under the test of time.

We all quoted Prabhupada to support this by saying that Prabhupada gave Brahmin initiating to devotees saying,

“Now that I have given you Brahmin initiation, now become Brahmana”

All of us Godbrothers put a new twist on Prabhupada’s comment –

“Now that I have given you the authority to become initiating Guru, now become Guru”

I was too uneducated in Spiritual life and very insecure at the time to say anything, so I just went along with the 'chosen guru' thing for the ride, most of us Prabhupada disciples did because we new nothing else, we knew no better, the oldest devotees in the movement back in 1978 were in their thirties, it was kind of an innocent way we did this, our intentions were good, there was no plan to cheat anyone, we all wanted to see ISKCON grow. It’s a shame many tried to imitate Prabhupada back then rather than simply follow him. Back then we simply didn't know any better

You know, the preaching on the streets back then was way way better and more effective than it is today, the devotees back then were very dedicated selling books, not that they are not today however back then EVERY TEMPLE DEVOTEE AND GUEST was into selling books..

The fact is if most of the gurus never fell down, it could have worked, IT WAS WORKING, AT LEAST IN AUSTRALIA. But that was destined to eventually not be, it was destined to fail because of the way they were glorified.

 

They were worshiped like Prabhupada, better than Prabhupada was. It therefore failed because clearly none of them were anything like Prabhupada.

 

As another old saying goes, "No lie can live forever?

 

Another point that should be made to shut up the critics is, even the paraphernalia selling by devotee back them, like oil paintings, were necessary as it assisted preaching. Those who criticize such selling are wrong because so many preaching programs where financed by such selling, like putting one and a half million copies of a Hare Krishna magazine in all Australian Newspapers plus supporting the campaign to free Soviet devotees from jails.

Tirtharaj Prabhu once went out selling paintings and collected $800 in one day and donated all the money to the Prahlad and the Krishna kids project, so they could help other devotees around the world in the campaign to free Soviet devotees locked up in Russia, in early 1986 before they got the EMI contract.

Also in 1987-8 we collected 140,000 signatures around Australia on our Bus, (also financed by selling oil paintings) and along with the Krsna kids campaign, it helped secure the religious freedom in the Soviet Union, granted by the Soviet Government in 1988.

Anyway, back then I gradually learned what was going on behind the scene, Bhavananda was struggling to handle the extremely high level of worship he received, he certainly wasn't the pure devotee we all made him out to be to his disciples, but I was just struggling along myself, who was I to point the finger?

 

So I just glorified him like Ramai and all of my Godbrothers did, we had no idea the chaos of imitating a pure devotee would cause back then.

Back then we all thought we new everything, well I certainly didn’t, stronger minded Godbrothers arrogently made sure of that..(Actually now when I think about it now, it was only Bhavananda who stood up for me when other Godbrothers wanted to put me down) I therefore just followed my Godbrothers like Ramai Swami, who was totally innocently convinced he new absolutely everything, only so I could do the media service I was good at..

 

It's funny you now because Ramai had no choice in the matter in 1980, he was told by Bhavananda to take me travelling with him. In all fairness though, Ramai Swami took me on board himself in mid 1987 so I could help the devotees in both the Soviet preaching and the Hall programs we were having in Towns and Villages all over Ausralia.

 

In reality back then, we had the 'frog in the well' mentality, puffed up with the little knowledge we had, especially Ramai Swami, he thought he new everything, but now we can see how blind we all were back then, Ramai Swami had no idea how to lead and protect the lives of others. He did not know how to deal with or handle so many basic issues he new about, he new me better than I new myself at the time but still had no idea how too deal with me or anyone else for that matter. I was too insecure to not go along with it all, after all, ISKCON was my only family.

Personally Bhavananda treated me fine, over all the years he was always kind and encouraging to me, he never ever demanded worship off me; in fact in all fairness to him, it was his Godbrothers, including myself, who saw him as a substitute 'Prabhupada' so to speak, and then treated him like Prabhupada, building him up to be a 'Prabhupada' we called 'Vishnupada'. His Godbrothers gave him that name; he certainly never gave it to himself.

People can say what ever they like about him, but as far as I am concerned, I saw his love for Prabhupada and his sincerity. We have to take some of the blame for it all, as the saying goes,

 

• 'It's not just the bad people who cause problems in the world, but rather, it is all the good people who stand by and do nothing, letting bad things happen and just go on year after year'.

Devotees new what was going on in the 80s, but did nothing. It is certainly not ‘all’ Bhavananda’s fault either; his Godbrothers lavishly glorified him first before he had any disciples.

Also he never ever demanded respect and worship off me, although Ramai Swami always would DEMAND it with threats to kick you out of the Temple if you did not fall at his feet, he was very arrogant, demanding and secretive and no-one could ever get too close to him, he always treated me impersonally and always patronised me and others. On many occasions he would say “get down and bow when you see me coming’, he would demand proudly. Sadly he was a clever bully to those who were not submissive to him.

Anyway I never experienced that impersonalism with Bhavananda. It’s like Ramai had this invisible shield around him. I travelled with him for years like this and his 'coldness' was very frustrating. Even now he remains aloof from everyone even if his with them right in the middle of all the GBC men. Bhavananda was not like that. His Godbrothers, including myself, are to fault by taking his worship way over the top.

Once again, when Bhavananda was away from his disciples, he was a reasonable person; he never ever raised his voice in anger to me, even though he did to others.

 

 

Ananda Prabhu should have been warned

 

I remember one time I became disturbed by what he did when I was Temple Commander of Vrndavana Temple in 1978. We used to go around to all the rooms in the Temple and Gurukula to see if they were clean in the morning, on this occasion, Bhavananda came for the inspection, all the Gurukulis were suppose to be in the Temple room chanting however, there was one room where two Gurukulis were still sleeping, Bhavananda went into a rage when he went into their room, picked one of the boys, Ananda Prabhu, who was 10 or 11 years old at the time, and threw him into the wall, then picked him up and did it a second time. I stood by and watched in surprise as I did not know nor experience that side of Bhavananda, after all his role as Guru had only just begun

What could I do, that’s just how it was in those days because that how we were treated when we went to school in the 50s and 60s. (I was 17 when I first went to the Temple in 1971) Bhavananda then turned to me and said “these boys need discipline, this place is not a free motel, make sure no one is in any of these rooms during the morning program”

In my mind I was thinking I should have warned the boys that Bhavananda was inspecting the gurukuli rooms with us as I new they were resting. Afterwards I went back to see if Ananda was alright, he had a hobby of reading books on airplanes and jets, which he was reading when I went into see him, he just carried on like nothing had happened’

Ananda Prabhu had a gash to his head that I treated and bandaged and some bruises on his body, I told him what had happened to him shocked me because I did not know Bhavananda could get so violent, as I was talking to him, Danavir, his school teacher, came in and yelled at him more for not attending the morning program.

 

• Later I took him down Loi Bazaar in Vrndavana and we had a kumba Lassi drink (the best place in the world to get this drink) and checked out all the shops, he new so much about Vrndavana, showing me the best places to buy dhotis, shirts and Deities, then we visited Prabhupada’s room at the Radha Damodar Temple, Ananda Prabhu told me how early in the morning Srila Prabhupada would translate Srimad Bhagavatam and then chant his rounds. Afterwards walking around the samadhis of Jiva Goswami and Rupa Goswami chanting Hare Krishna. We then went to Davanala Kund and swam with others boys, on the banks of the Kund was a Shiva lingum and Ananda Prabhu and an older boy Dvarkadisha das ACBSP explained how the young girls from the village came to worship the lingum. I remember thinking what the early British Christian missionaries must of thought on seeing such worship. I remember someone took photos of us all swimming at Davanala Kund, love to see those photos now

Anyway my memory of Ananda Prabhu is that he had so much knowledge about Vrndavana, he spoke Hindi fluently but also loved to read his books on planes. Other Gurukulis at the time would remember this, they where terrified of Bhavananda after this and so was I back then, why? Because I had nothing else and nowhere else to go. After all, I was only a lost and a pissed off teenager towards the world myself when I joined ISKCON. The movement became everything to me and today it still is".

[Kulapavana 0]

Not even a brief reference to Bhava's active homosexuality in those days? If you are going to write the truth, write it all.

 

You are not shy blaming Sridhara Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja for supporting the zonal gurus Prabhupada put in place. The zonal (regional) secretary system introduced by Prabhupada was naturally transformed into the zonal guru system when these zonal secretaries became gurus on Prabhupada's order. In itself, that was not a bad system. Problem was that these people were eventually corrupted by the absolute power, fame, profit, and sense gratification that came with it. The personality cultism previously centered on Prabhupada was now transformed into the zonal "acharya" personality cultism. You think Sridhara M. or Narayana M. could have stopped that? They tried, and that is why they were eventually REJECTED and willified by the ISKCON power elite.

But people like you blame GM devotees for the Iskcon debacle... how brainwashed can you people be?

[Vigraha 0]

 

Not even a brief reference to Bhava's active homosexuality?

 

Read it again prabhu, it is totally unedited, its there.

[cbrahma 0]

This is the truth which I knew about and many Prabhupada disciples who have long since left ISKCON knew without a doubt. They also know that the zonal acarya system was a concoction, based on flimsy evidence, a disjointed conversation on a doctored tape.

I understand now why Kulapavana wants to believe that the zonal fiasco was Prabhupada's real intention. He is a Sridara disciple.

[Vigraha 0]

 

. The zonal (regional) secretary system introduced by Prabhupada was naturally transformed into the zonal guru system when these zonal secretaries became gurus on Prabhupada's order.

 

In itself, that was not a bad system. Problem was that these people were eventually corrupted by the absolute power, fame, profit, and sense gratification that came with it.

 

The personality cultism previously centered on Prabhupada was now transformed into the zonal "acharya" personality cultism.?

 

On a mass scale the media were right into Bhavananda, they glorified Bhavananda on a level in Ausralia in the media that was not happening anywhere else on the planet, he was loved by the Television news, papers, magazines and radio, the media wanted more and more of Bhavananda and if he never fell down, if it was real, or even became real, his charisma would of attracted millions in Australia.

 

That was already happening, but unfortuanately is wasn't real and his fall down actually disappointed many in the media who greatly liked him.

 

Lord Caitanta wants it to be real and not lead by someone who imitates a pure devotee. One thing is certain, many of us had a glimps of what it would be like if another pure devotee like Srila Prabhupada, preached the pure message of Lord Caitanya. It would be beyond our wildest dream

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I understand now why Kulapavana wants to believe that the zonal fiasco was Prabhupada's real intention. He is a Sridara disciple.

 

Read what I said again: "The zonal (regional) secretary system introduced by Prabhupada was naturally transformed into the zonal guru system when these zonal secretaries became gurus on Prabhupada's order. In itself, that was not a bad system. Problem was that these people were eventually corrupted by the absolute power, fame, profit, and sense gratification that came with it."

 

How is that suggesting to you that "Kulapavana wants to believe that the zonal fiasco was Prabhupada's real intention"? You are just inventing stuff...

[suchandra 1]

 

This is the truth which I knew about and many Prabhupada disciples who have long since left ISKCON knew without a doubt. They also know that the zonal acarya system was a concoction, based on flimsy evidence, a disjointed conversation on a doctored tape.

I understand now why Kulapavana wants to believe that the zonal fiasco was Prabhupada's real intention. He is a Sridara disciple.

Good point, additionally the rank&file devotees were quite confused and not really convinced about the fast takeover the very next day after Prabhupada's departure of the original 11 to be the new gurus after Prabhupada. If Sridara and Narayana would have spoken up against it, it would never have went so far. Instead they even tried to reinstall already collapsed and broken down Jayatirtha and in this way pushed him right into the position to exhale his life. He could have been saved but the pressure upon him was too strong.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

...the rank&file devotees were quite confused and not really convinced about the fast takeover the very next day after Prabhupada's departure of the original 11 to be the new gurus after Prabhupada. If Sridara and Narayana would have spoken up against it, it would never have went so far.

 

Just like everybody else, SM and NM believed that Prabhupada placed these 11 in position of authority and out of respect for Prabhupada they tried to cooperate, as Prabhupada asked them to do. They did not question Prabhupada's decissions. It is not something people like you could ever appreciate. Instead, you blame these Vaishnavas for what happened in Iskcon. If - as you are suggesting - these 11 were crooked from the first day Prabhupada appointed them, then whose fault was it for choosing such worthless people for such important positions??? Did Sridhara Maharaja cause that too??

 

Thuth is, most of them at least, were NOT crooks from the beginning, and the system Prabhupada introduced HAD a chance.

[Beggar 0]

Instead they even tried to reinstall already collapsed and broken down Jayatirtha and in this way pushed him right into the position to exhale his life. He could have been saved but the pressure upon him was too strong.

Jayatirtha had no association with Narayana Maharaja only with Sridhar Maharaja. Do you really think that Srila Sridhar Maharaja, considering his background could conceive of the depravity of Jayatirtha's behaviour? No one except in his inner circle knew of Jayatirtha's use of hashish and LSD at that time. Even his wife, Manjuali d.d., was in the dark over this. He was not at all honest with Sridhar Maharaja about what was really going on with him. Even by this time Jayatirtha had basically gone mad from his extreme abuse of psychedelic drugs.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Read what I said again: "The zonal (regional) secretary system introduced by Prabhupada was naturally transformed into the zonal guru system when these zonal secretaries became gurus on Prabhupada's order. In itself, that was not a bad system. Problem was that these people were eventually corrupted by the absolute power, fame, profit, and sense gratification that came with it."

 

How is that suggesting to you that "Kulapavana wants to believe that the zonal fiasco was Prabhupada's real intention"? You are just inventing stuff...

You keep claiming unflichingly that Prabhapada had a zonal system. When exactly do you think he introduced it and for what purpose. He certainly had proxies or ritviks that would initiate on his behalf - that is far cry from installing diksa gurus who initiate on their own behalf and accept worship due a Mahabhagavata.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

You keep claiming unflichingly that Prabhapada had a zonal system. When exactly do you think he introduced it and for what purpose. He certainly had proxies or ritviks that would initiate on his behalf - that is far cry from installing diksa gurus who initiate on their own behalf and accept worship due a Mahabhagavata.

 

The system of "regional secretaries" was introduced in the early 70's and the purpose was managerial and spiritual oversight of various areas and reporting to Prabhupada on what was happening there. It was a good system, one that is adopted in many organizations of all sorts.

[cbrahma 0]

 

The system of "regional secretaries" was introduced in the early 70's and the purpose was managerial and spiritual oversight of various areas and reporting to Prabhupada on what was happening there. It was a good system, one that is adopted in many organizations of all sorts.

You speak of guru-tattva in a mundane complacent way as though it were an administrative organizational role. Nothing could be further from the truth. That follows of course if one views Gaudiya Vainsavism as a religious sect requiring validation inside a corporate structure.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

You speak of guru-tattva in a mundane complacent way as though it were an administrative organizational role. Nothing could be further from the truth. That follows of course if one views Gaudiya Vainsavism as a religious sect requiring validation inside a corporate structure.

 

The dichotamy between management and the role of spiritual advisor is experienced in all Gaudiya Vaisnvava institutions. Maybe it is the nature of the beast since there is so much overlap in responsibilities? Therefore there may be no culprit after all. For those who don't care for the institutional approach to Vaisnavism there are alternatives.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

You speak of guru-tattva in a mundane complacent way as though it were an administrative organizational role.

 

When gurus are also administrators and organizers, it is possible that some of the things they introduce will not pass the test of time. Just because Prabhupada administrated and organized things in a certain way does not mean that this is the way to organize and manage forever.

 

Validation is always required. A guru must be validated by a prospective disciple in accordance with the shastra and tradition, and a manager must be validated too, using the principles of utility, efficiency, and ability to achieve the desired goal.

 

You need to judge by the results.

[cbrahma 0]

 

The dichotamy between management and the role of spiritual advisor is experienced in all Gaudiya Vaisnvava institutions. Maybe it is the nature of the beast since there is so much overlap in responsibilities? Therefore there may be no culprit after all. For those who don't care for the institutional approach to Vaisnavism there are alternatives.

Prabhupada made it clear that the guru is a spiritual function - not material. When it becomes material we have sectarian religion - the end of a spiritual movement - per Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Prabhupada made it clear that the guru is a spiritual function - not material. When it becomes material is when we have sectarian religion - the end of a spiritual movement - per Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja.

 

Cooking for Krsna is really the service of Srimati Radharani. In the 1970's in LA we were always told that we were cooking, cleaning etc. in Srimati Radharani's kitchen. Therefore was managing Her kitchen a mundane thing or a devotional service? Why do you think that everything is so black and white. This doesn't seem to serve you at all. Devotees who see things as all or nothing tend to end up on the nothing side in the long run.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Cooking for Krsna is really the service of Srimati Radharani. In the 1970's in LA we were always told that we were cooking, cleaning etc. in Srimati Radharani's kitchen. Therefore was managing Her kitchen a mundane thing or a devotional service? Why do you think that everything is so black and white. This doesn't seem to serve you at all. Devotees who see things as all or nothing tend to end up on the nothing side in the long run.

Don't lump me together with ISKCON. I am not a member. The dovetailing of pratical service is not the same as installing a guru as 'natural' administrator. This how subtly the deterioration of spiritual culture into a material 'business' - a wedding factory - a book distribution outlet can happen and it has, without anybody who hasn't seen the potency of the pure devotee noticing.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Don't lump me together with ISKCON. I am not a member. The dovetailing of pratical service is not the same as installing a guru as 'natural' administrator. This how subtly the deterioration of spiritual culture into a material 'business' - a wedding factory - a book distribution outlet can happen and it has, without anybody who hasn't seen the potency of the pure devotee noticing.

I really don't disagree, but I'm trying to show how management in a "spriritual institution" can transcend mundane managerial proclivities if performed in proper Krsna Consciousness. The problem - easier said than done.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The dovetailing of pratical service is not the same as installing a guru as 'natural' administrator. This how subtly the deterioration of spiritual culture into a material 'business' - a wedding factory - a book distribution outlet can happen and it has, without anybody who hasn't seen the potency of the pure devotee noticing.

 

Who were the 11 Prabhupada named before they became gurus? They were both administrators and devotees inspiring others to take up spiritual life. Prabhupada was an administrator as well, almost to the very end. Does it always have to be that way? Of course NOT! Sannyasis should not get involved in management, money, and administration. It was all that material power that first corrupted the sannyasis Prabhupada initiated, and later on the gurus that he named, and the ones that came later. Brahmanas do not manage, and kshatriyas do not accept disciples and play the role of gurus. That was a wise system where the material and spiritual powers are clearly separated. Out of sheer necessity Prabhupada also acted as a manager, but he was not affected by the material power he had. I wish we could say the same about his young disciples playing the roles of gurus and sannyasis that he gave them.

[suchandra 1]

 

Who were the 11 Prabhupada named before they became gurus? They were both administrators and devotees inspiring others to take up spiritual life. Prabhupada was an administrator as well, almost to the very end. Does it always have to be that way? Of course NOT! Sannyasis should not get involved in management, money, and administration. It was all that material power that first corrupted the sannyasis Prabhupada initiated, and later on the gurus that he named, and the ones that came later. Brahmanas do not manage, and kshatriyas do not accept disciples and play the role of gurus. That was a wise system where the material and spiritual powers are clearly separated. Out of sheer necessity Prabhupada also acted as a manager, but he was not affected by the material power he had. I wish we could say the same about his young disciples playing the roles of gurus and sannyasis that he gave them.

Since there're still many tapes missing you cannot exhibit such certainty in what you're claiming and speak like a professor. Prabhupada considered his sannyasa program as failure and wanted to stop it. "He gave his young disciples the roles of full fledged parampara diksa-gurus", don't forget to mention that there're thousands of devotees who say, no, this is not true, he did the same like his guru and did not appoint any successors.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Prabhupada considered his sannyasa program as failure and wanted to stop it. "He gave his young disciples the roles of full fledged parampara diksa-gurus", don't forget to mention that there're thousands of devotees who say, no, this is not true, he did the same like his guru and did not appoint any successors.

 

you are confusing "disciples becoming gurus" thing with naming a successor to be placed in charge of the entire mission.

 

Prabhupada clearly gave the authority to some of his disciples to initiate and be gurus. But he named GBC to be his "successor", just like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did.

[cbrahma 0]

 

I really don't disagree, but I'm trying to show how management in a "spriritual institution" can transcend mundane managerial proclivities if performed in proper Krsna Consciousness. The problem - easier said than done.

This is chewing the already chewed. There is no 'natural' transition from an administrative purely material organization to the absurdity of the zonal acarya system.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Who were the 11 Prabhupada named before they became gurus? They were both administrators and devotees inspiring others to take up spiritual life. Prabhupada was an administrator as well, almost to the very end. Does it always have to be that way? Of course NOT! Sannyasis should not get involved in management, money, and administration. It was all that material power that first corrupted the sannyasis Prabhupada initiated, and later on the gurus that he named, and the ones that came later. Brahmanas do not manage, and kshatriyas do not accept disciples and play the role of gurus. That was a wise system where the material and spiritual powers are clearly separated. Out of sheer necessity Prabhupada also acted as a manager, but he was not affected by the material power he had. I wish we could say the same about his young disciples playing the roles of gurus and sannyasis that he gave them.

What does that prove? They had administrative roles and to some extent that is what ritvik is. Your argument is backwards. You are claiming that these administrators could naturally transition to diksa gurus, when only the converse is acceptable, diksa gurus could take on adminstrative positions.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

This is chewing the already chewed. There is no 'natural' transition from an administrative purely material organization to the absurdity of the zonal acarya system.

 

Why would you think that Iskcon under Prabhupada's direction was a "purely material organization"? Also I think that the points I have made are valid. I can't see what you are driving at? What are you trying to prove? I question if you are on a search for truth or are only interested in being right?

[Svarupa 0]

 

 

This is because the search for paragons is a natural phenomenon within human society, if we cannot find one a qualified Guru, then we unfortunately manufacture one, just like we did after Prabhupada left us, we actually carried on the Guru worship as if Prabhupada had never left.

The appointed gurus where not qualified on the level of Prabhupada, yet we would worship them anyway ON THAT LEVEL with the hope they would become qualified, that’s how innocent we were but we genuinly believed that in time, due to the purification process of Bhakti-yoga, they would become pure devotees under the test of time.

We all quoted Prabhupada to support this by saying that Prabhupada gave Brahmin initiating to devotees saying,

“Now that I have given you Brahmin initiation, now become Brahmana”

All of us Godbrothers put a new twist on Prabhupada’s comment –

“Now that I have given you the authority to become initiating Guru, now become Guru”

I was too uneducated in Spiritual life and very insecure at the time to say anything, so I just went along with the 'chosen guru' thing for the ride, most of us Prabhupada disciples did because we new nothing else, we knew no better, the oldest devotees in the movement back in 1978 were in their thirties, it was kind of an innocent way we did this, our intentions were good, there was no plan to cheat anyone, we all wanted to see ISKCON grow. It’s a shame many tried to imitate Prabhupada back then rather than simply follow him. Back then we simply didn't know any better

You know, the preaching on the streets back then was way way better and more effective than it is today, the devotees back then were very dedicated selling books, not that they are not today however back then EVERY TEMPLE DEVOTEE AND GUEST was into selling books..

The fact is if most of the gurus never fell down, it could have worked, IT WAS WORKING, AT LEAST IN AUSTRALIA. But that was destined to eventually not be, it was destined to fail because of the way they were glorified.

 

They were worshiped like Prabhupada, better than Prabhupada was. It therefore failed because clearly none of them were anything like Prabhupada.

 

As another old saying goes, "No lie can live forever?

 

Another point that should be made to shut up the critics is, even the paraphernalia selling by devotee back them, like oil paintings, were necessary as it assisted preaching. Those who criticize such selling are wrong because so many preaching programs where financed by such selling, like putting one and a half million copies of a Hare Krishna magazine in all Australian Newspapers plus supporting the campaign to free Soviet devotees from jails.

Tirtharaj Prabhu once went out selling paintings and collected $800 in one day and donated all the money to the Prahlad and the Krishna kids project, so they could help other devotees around the world in the campaign to free Soviet devotees locked up in Russia, in early 1986 before they got the EMI contract.

Also in 1987-8 we collected 140,000 signatures around Australia on our Bus, (also financed by selling oil paintings) and along with the Krsna kids campaign, it helped secure the religious freedom in the Soviet Union, granted by the Soviet Government in 1988.

Anyway, back then I gradually learned what was going on behind the scene, Bhavananda was struggling to handle the extremely high level of worship he received, he certainly wasn't the pure devotee we all made him out to be to his disciples, but I was just struggling along myself, who was I to point the finger?

 

So I just glorified him like Ramai and all of my Godbrothers did, we had no idea the chaos of imitating a pure devotee would cause back then.

Back then we all thought we new everything, well I certainly didn’t, stronger minded Godbrothers arrogently made sure of that..(Actually now when I think about it now, it was only Bhavananda who stood up for me when other Godbrothers wanted to put me down) I therefore just followed my Godbrothers like Ramai Swami, who was totally innocently convinced he new absolutely everything, only so I could do the media service I was good at..

 

It's funny you now because Ramai had no choice in the matter in 1980, he was told by Bhavananda to take me travelling with him. In all fairness though, Ramai Swami took me on board himself in mid 1987 so I could help the devotees in both the Soviet preaching and the Hall programs we were having in Towns and Villages all over Ausralia.

 

In reality back then, we had the 'frog in the well' mentality, puffed up with the little knowledge we had, especially Ramai Swami, he thought he new everything, but now we can see how blind we all were back then, Ramai Swami had no idea how to lead and protect the lives of others. He did not know how to deal with or handle so many basic issues he new about, he new me better than I new myself at the time but still had no idea how too deal with me or anyone else for that matter. I was too insecure to not go along with it all, after all, ISKCON was my only family.

Personally Bhavananda treated me fine, over all the years he was always kind and encouraging to me, he never ever demanded worship off me; in fact in all fairness to him, it was his Godbrothers, including myself, who saw him as a substitute 'Prabhupada' so to speak, and then treated him like Prabhupada, building him up to be a 'Prabhupada' we called 'Vishnupada'. His Godbrothers gave him that name; he certainly never gave it to himself.

People can say what ever they like about him, but as far as I am concerned, I saw his love for Prabhupada and his sincerity. We have to take some of the blame for it all, as the saying goes,

 

• 'It's not just the bad people who cause problems in the world, but rather, it is all the good people who stand by and do nothing, letting bad things happen and just go on year after year'.

Devotees new what was going on in the 80s, but did nothing. It is certainly not ‘all’ Bhavananda’s fault either; his Godbrothers lavishly glorified him first before he had any disciples.

Also he never ever demanded respect and worship off me, although Ramai Swami always would DEMAND it with threats to kick you out of the Temple if you did not fall at his feet, he was very arrogant, demanding and secretive and no-one could ever get too close to him, he always treated me impersonally and always patronised me and others. On many occasions he would say “get down and bow when you see me coming’, he would demand proudly. Sadly he was a clever bully to those who were not submissive to him.

Anyway I never experienced that impersonalism with Bhavananda. It’s like Ramai had this invisible shield around him. I travelled with him for years like this and his 'coldness' was very frustrating. Even now he remains aloof from everyone even if his with them right in the middle of all the GBC men. Bhavananda was not like that. His Godbrothers, including myself, are to fault by taking his worship way over the top.

Once again, when Bhavananda was away from his disciples, he was a reasonable person; he never ever raised his voice in anger to me, even though he did to others.

 

 

 

Ananda Prabhu should have been warned

 

I remember one time I became disturbed by what he did when I was Temple Commander of Vrndavana Temple in 1978. We used to go around to all the rooms in the Temple and Gurukula to see if they were clean in the morning, on this occasion, Bhavananda came for the inspection, all the Gurukulis were suppose to be in the Temple room chanting however, there was one room where two Gurukulis were still sleeping, Bhavananda went into a rage when he went into their room, picked one of the boys, Ananda Prabhu, who was 10 or 11 years old at the time, and threw him into the wall, then picked him up and did it a second time. I stood by and watched in surprise as I did not know nor experience that side of Bhavananda, after all his role as Guru had only just begun

What could I do, that’s just how it was in those days because that how we were treated when we went to school in the 50s and 60s. (I was 17 when I first went to the Temple in 1971) Bhavananda then turned to me and said “these boys need discipline, this place is not a free motel, make sure no one is in any of these rooms during the morning program”

In my mind I was thinking I should have warned the boys that Bhavananda was inspecting the gurukuli rooms with us as I new they were resting. Afterwards I went back to see if Ananda was alright, he had a hobby of reading books on airplanes and jets, which he was reading when I went into see him, he just carried on like nothing had happened’

Ananda Prabhu had a gash to his head that I treated and bandaged and some bruises on his body, I told him what had happened to him shocked me because I did not know Bhavananda could get so violent, as I was talking to him, Danavir, his school teacher, came in and yelled at him more for not attending the morning program.

 

• Later I took him down Loi Bazaar in Vrndavana and we had a kumba Lassi drink (the best place in the world to get this drink) and checked out all the shops, he new so much about Vrndavana, showing me the best places to buy dhotis, shirts and Deities, then we visited Prabhupada’s room at the Radha Damodar Temple, Ananda Prabhu told me how early in the morning Srila Prabhupada would translate Srimad Bhagavatam and then chant his rounds. Afterwards walking around the samadhis of Jiva Goswami and Rupa Goswami chanting Hare Krishna. We then went to Davanala Kund and swam with others boys, on the banks of the Kund was a Shiva lingum and Ananda Prabhu and an older boy Dvarkadisha das ACBSP explained how the young girls from the village came to worship the lingum. I remember thinking what the early British Christian missionaries must of thought on seeing such worship. I remember someone took photos of us all swimming at Davanala Kund, love to see those photos now

Anyway my memory of Ananda Prabhu is that he had so much knowledge about Vrndavana, he spoke Hindi fluently but also loved to read his books on planes. Other Gurukulis at the time would remember this, they where terrified of Bhavananda after this and so was I back then, why? Because I had nothing else and nowhere else to go. After all, I was only a lost and a pissed off teenager towards the world myself when I joined ISKCON. The movement became everything to me and today it still is".

 

Good points