Is it true that this is Vishnu's dream?

[Beggar 0]

Many posters on this forum tend to propagandize their viewpoints, or their guru and camp etc. We all do to some extent, because whatever we have learned about Krsna Consciousness we have learned from others who by the system of guru/disciple we are beholden. Yet this is called "Spiritual Discussions" and really to discuss a topic we must at least at some point retreat to the neutral position. From that neutral position we can at least try to be open minded and see the other side of an issue, after all that's what a discussion really is, for it is not a monologue to ourselves or our own mind. I don't think in the last few years of first lurking on these discussions and then becoming a poster, that I have seen such a dedicated propagandist and anti-discusser as Gaura Gopal Prabhu AKA Sarva gattah, Swarupa, Vigraha et. all. It seems that his real purpose on Audarya, Spiritual Discussions is to convince as many viewers and poster, especially those who are sitting on the fence of his viewpoint on the origin of the jiva. For the most part he represents a belief system that is quite rigid and authoritarian, something like a right wing politician bordering on some sort of facism. He wraps himself in the flag of loyalty to Srila Prabhupada implying that he alone, along with his small coterie, has the real vision of Srila Prabhupada.

It's almost as if Spiritual Discussions is some sort of internet talk show, except that our words come out through a keyboard, and some of us are competing to be the host or moderator. Earlier today, Pacific U.S. time, I responded with a barrage of cut and paste posts. I did this to point out that this is what we are being subjected to, although Theist took it straight and it went over his head. Personally, I really don't want to be the host of this show and I don't spend my days obsessing over the origin of the soul. But somehow even if I am misguided by my own egotism, Gaura Gopal's brazen attempt to take over this forum with his ideology, really pushes my buttons. Militant Rtvks, Fall-vadis and Sleeper-vadis are the "chosen ones" they believe that they are Prabhupada's real followers and that everyone else is a dupe. They are militant because within their harangue and rant, is a basic black and white judgment of those who do not agree. Theirs is not a world of shades of gray but rather black and white. They are the fundamentalists, even the literists (even more rigid than literalists) of the Krsna Consciousness family. Such a mentality does not engage in discussion but rather immediately draws battle lines. The real question for those of use not of that ilk is how should we respond, to those who are trying to muscle us by their words of judgment and condemnation? Yeah, I know that sometimes I can be very judgmental also. But I can safely say that sometimes I can step back and doubt my own sureness. After all, are not I also a person who despite so much reading, hearing and chanting bewildered by the allurements of this world? So who am I to chastise others thereby taking a role that is really an monopoly of a person in the position of guru? So yes even though my humility is mostly false, sometimes I get a glimpse of this and I believe this is what it takes to enter into an honest discussion. And yes, I am tired of being hammered by all the propaganda, which is inserted somehow, even at the bottom of all such posts, even if it appears to be a different topic It's like a relentless barrage, almost like we are being bombed by words in an attempt to make us submit. So this goes far beyond the issue of the origin of the soul. It is even more primal than a question of whether it is spiritual in quality, the real question is where is there sanity in it? All kidding aside to me it seems a type of obsessive madness, and we should wonder what lies beneath it? And hope and pray that it is not contagious.

[suchandra 1]

 

this question (about the falll or the creation of the jiva)cannot be explained without getting into mayavada ...so hare krishna's should just forget it ....it doesnt matter .....

Why you speak about offense -mayavadha is an offense. One of the first booklets Prabhupada published was Sri Isopanisad, where it says at the beginning:

 

om purnam adah purnam idam

purnat purnam udacyate

purnasya purnam adaya

purnam evavasisyate

 

om--the complete whole; purnam--perfectly complete; adah--that; purnam-- perfectly complete; idam--this phenomenal world; purnat--from the all-perfect; purnam--complete unit; udacyate--is produced; purnasya--of the complete whole; purnam--completely, all; adaya--having been taken away; purnam--the complete balance; eva--even; avasisyate--is remaining.

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance."

 

The spiritual world is of such kind that although our present brains cannot understand, see post above by AncientMariner, everything remains perfect and complete. Fully 100% perfect and complete although there're billions of souls in the material world. This is sastra, everything is explained. In other words, the terrible word "fall" is in the spiritual world not perceived as a mundane term but as something complete - short microsleep while tending Krishna's cows.

[suchandra 1]

 

Why you speak about offense -mayavadha is an offense. The first booklet Prabhupada published was Sri Isopanisad, where it says at the beginning:

 

om purnam adah purnam idam

purnat purnam udacyate

purnasya purnam adaya

purnam evavasisyate

 

om--the complete whole; purnam--perfectly complete; adah--that; purnam-- perfectly complete; idam--this phenomenal world; purnat--from the all-perfect; purnam--complete unit; udacyate--is produced; purnasya--of the complete whole; purnam--completely, all; adaya--having been taken away; purnam--the complete balance; eva--even; avasisyate--is remaining.

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance."

 

The spiritual world is of such kind that although our present brains cannot understand, see post above by AncientMariner, everything remains perfect and complete. Fully 100% perfect and complete although there're billions of souls in the material world. This is sastra, everything is explained.

[suchandra 1]

 

Many posters on this forum tend to propagandize their viewpoints, or their guru and camp etc. We all do to some extent, because whatever we have learned about Krsna Consciousness we have learned from others who by the system of guru/disciple we are beholden. Yet this is called "Spiritual Discussions" and really to discuss a topic we must at least at some point retreat to the neutral position. From that neutral position we can at least try to be open minded and see the other side of an issue, after all that's what a discussion really is, for it is not a monologue to ourselves or our own mind. I don't think in the last few years of first lurking on these discussions and then becoming a poster, that I have seen such a dedicated propagandist and anti-discusser as Gaura Gopal Prabhu AKA Sarva gattah, Swarupa, Vigraha et. all. It seems that his real purpose on Audarya, Spiritual Discussions is to convince as many viewers and poster, especially those who are sitting on the fence of his viewpoint on the origin of the jiva. For the most part he represents a belief system that is quite rigid and authoritarian, something like a right wing politician bordering on some sort of facism. He wraps himself in the flag of loyalty to Srila Prabhupada implying that he alone, along with his small coterie, has the real vision of Srila Prabhupada.

It's almost as if Spiritual Discussions is some sort of internet talk show, except that our words come out through a keyboard, and some of us are competing to be the host or moderator. Earlier today, Pacific U.S. time, I responded with a barrage of cut and paste posts. I did this to point out that this is what we are being subjected to, although Theist took it straight and it went over his head. Personally, I really don't want to be the host of this show and I don't spend my days obsessing over the origin of the soul. But somehow even if I am misguided by my own egotism, Gaura Gopal's brazen attempt to take over this forum with his ideology, really pushes my buttons. Militant Rtvks, Fall-vadis and Sleeper-vadis are the "chosen ones" they believe that they are Prabhupada's real followers and that everyone else is a dupe. They are militant because within their harangue and rant, is a basic black and white judgment of those who do not agree. Theirs is not a world of shades of gray but rather black and white. They are the fundamentalists, even the literists (even more rigid than literalists) of the Krsna Consciousness family. Such a mentality does not engage in discussion but rather immediately draws battle lines. The real question for those of use not of that ilk is how should we respond, to those who are trying to muscle us by their words of judgment and condemnation? Yeah, I know that sometimes I can be very judgmental also. But I can safely say that sometimes I can step back and doubt my own sureness. After all, are not I also a person who despite so much reading, hearing and chanting bewildered by the allurements of this world? So who am I to chastise others thereby taking a role that is really an monopoly of a person in the position of guru? So yes even though my humility is mostly false, sometimes I get a glimpse of this and I believe this is what it takes to enter into an honest discussion. And yes, I am tired of being hammered by all the propaganda, which is inserted somehow, even at the bottom of all such posts, even if it appears to be a different topic It's like a relentless barrage, almost like we are being bombed by words in an attempt to make us submit. So this goes far beyond the issue of the origin of the soul. It is even more primal than a question of whether it is spiritual in quality, the real question is where is there sanity in it? All kidding aside to me it seems a type of obsessive madness, and we should wonder what lies beneath it? And hope and pray that it is not contagious.

 

It is of course good that you're presenting your concern to upkeep the integrity of the forum. But aren't the posters all trying to base their statements upon sastra? And are immediately reminded when failing the etiquette of reference to authorised vedic scripture? Thought provoking impulses to develop the quality of a Vaishnava forum are surely welcome.

Hopefully there will be one day only one camp, the spreading of Krishna's Holy Name and all the Vaishnavas supporting each other to save this planet from tamasic forces to gain control.

[Shivaduta 0]

 

Those who THINK WRITE....

 

Those who DONT .... CUT-PASTE

 

 

ABOVE BE THE WORDS OF ANCIENT WISDOM

 

[suchandra 1]

 

 

Those who THINK WRITE....

 

Those who DONT .... CUT-PASTE

 

 

ABOVE BE THE WORDS OF ANCIENT WISDOM

 

Thanks Shivaduta, but cut-paste an article written by a Vaishnava, isn't this somewhat also honouring this Vaishnava?

Since there are some complains about Vaishnavas not properly treating other Vaishnavas, nice article to instruct how Vaishnavas feel when meeting other Vaishnavas, Lord Nityananda meeting Madhavendra Puri.

 

 

Shripada Madhavendra Puri

by Swami Gaurangapada

posted

2008-03-16 18:04:20

 

http://nitaai.net/?http://nitaai.net/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=2942#p2942

 

During Nityananda Prabhu's tour of all the holy places of India for the

purpose of purifying them, by the will of providence, he happened to meet

Madhavendra Puripada somewhere in western India. When Nityananda Prabhu saw

Madhavendra Puri Goswami he fainted away in a swoon of ecstatic love and His

transcendental body became completely still. Similarly, when Madhavendra

Puri gazed upon Nityananda Prabhu, he completely forgot himself and fainted

to the ground.

 

 

Madhavendra Puri

 

Sri Gaurcandra used to repeatedly remark that, in relishing the mellows of

love in devotion, there is no one to compare with Madhavendra Puri. When the

disciples of Madhavendra Puri, headed by Isvara Puri, saw their spiritual

master and the Prabhu fallen in a faint of ecstatic love, they began to cry.

 

Lord Nityananda Prabhu

 

Gradually, Nityananda Prabhu and Madhavendra got back their external

consciousness. When their eyes opened and they again got sight of one

another, they put their arms around each other's necks and cried tears of

joy. Then they began to roll in the sandy earth carried by the waves of

ecstatic love, while rending the sky with their loud roaring. As a river of

love began to flow from their eyes, Mother Earth considered herself to be

blessed in being flooded by that inundation. With the appearance of the

transformations brought by bhava, trembling, tears, and standing of the

hairs on end, it could be understood that their bodies had become a place of

pastimes for Caitanya Gosai.

 

Nityananda exclaimed, "Today I have received the fruit of all my travels to

the holy places. In seeing the feet of Madhavendra Puri, I have received the

treasure of love of God, and thus my life has become blessed."

 

Madhavendra Puri continued to embrace Nityananda Prabhu tightly to his

chest. He wanted to say something but his voice was choked up due to

experiencing intense emotions. Isvara Puri, Brahmananda Puri and the other

disciples of Sri Puripada present, became completely enamored by Nityananda

Prabhu. Some other pilgrims were present at that place but due to being

devoid of devotion, they couldn't understand what was going on and continued

to converse amongst themselves. The devotees felt some sorrow to see the

behaviour of those dullheaded brutes so they retreated into the forest to be

rid of their company. When they were alone together again, their distress

was destroyed and they continued to relish the mellows of Krsna-prema. In

this way Nityananda Prabhu and Madhavendra Puri spent some days together in

the happiness of Krsna-katha.

 

Madhavendra Puri's love of God was very uncommon. Simply upon seeing a dark

raincloud he would fall down unconscious. Day and night he imbibed the

spirituous liquor of Krsna-prema, and thus remained intoxicated, sometimes

laughing, sometimes crying, sometimes raising a tumultuous hue and cry.

Nityananda also behaved just like a madman, falling down on the ground, his

body agitated by waves of ecstasy. As lava belches forth from avolcano, loud

laughter erupted from his mouth while his whole body, as if in the throes of

a great earthquake, trembled violently.

 

Never before having seen such unprecedented displays of ecstatic emotions,

Madhavendra Puri's disciples continuously remained engaged in Hari-kirtana.

No one knew whether it was day or night. Having become completely absorbed

in the mellows of Krsna-prema, the days were passing though it seemed to

them that not even a moment had elapsed yet. Whatever was discussed

between Madhavendra and Nityananda is known only to them and Sri

Krsnacandra. Who else is capable of understanding such subject matter?

Madhavendra Puri was unable to give up Nityananda's company and so he

continued to roam about, keeping Nityananda with him.

 

Madhavendra Puri told his disciples, "Never before anywhere in all my

travels to all the holy places, have I ever seen such love as this. I

could understand that the Supreme Lord is merciful to me when I got a friend

like Nityananda as my close companion. Whenever one gets His association,

that place becomes the sum total of all holy places and non-different from

Vaikuntha itself. Whoever simply hears about Him will definitely get the

association of Sri Krsnacandra. And whoever bears even the slightest enmity

towards Him, though he may be a devotee, is not dear to Krsna." In this

way, day and night, Madhavendra praised the attractive qualities of

Nityananda Prabhu.

 

Lord Nityananda respected Madhavendra Puri as his guru and always behaved

with him in that relationship. After travelling together for some days

finally Nityananda Prabhu set of in the direction of Setu Bandha while

Madhavendra Puri started for Sarayu. Having lost contact with the external

world neither of them was aware of his own body. In order to maintain body

and soul together, they thus remained in these transcendental states of

consciousness. If in external consciousness, they would cease to live. C.B.

Adi 9.158-192

 

At the time of his departure from this world, Madhavendra Puri was

completely absorbed in separation from Krsna and constantly repeated one

sloka. This verse is considered by Gaudiya Vaishnavas to be the essence of

expression of the mood of separation.

 

Among his associates and disciples were Sri Advaita Acarya, Sri Pundarika

Vidyanidhi, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Iswara Puri, Sri Paramananda Puri,

Sri Ranga Puri, Sri Ramacandra Puri, Sri Nrsimha Tirtha, Sri Raghupati

Upadhyaya, Sri Sukhananda Puri, among others.

 

"Madhavendra Puri's body is totally imbued with divine love, as are his

followers as well. He takes nothing other than the juice of the mellows of

love for Krsna as his foodstuffs. Thus his body has become the place of

pastimes of Sri Krsna." C.B.Adi 9.155

 

His worshippable Deity, Gopalji, is presently residing at Nathdwar in

Rajasthan, and is worshipped by the followers of Vallabhacarya.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Hopefully there will be one day only one camp, the spreading of Krishna's Holy Name and all the Vaishnavas supporting each other to save this planet from tamasic forces to gain control.

Your posts are always inspiring Suchandra

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In this present day, man is very eager to have one scripture, one God, one religion, and one occupation. So let there be one common scripture for the whole world--Bhagavad-gita. And let there be one God only for the whole world--Sri Krishna. And one mantra only--Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And let there be one work only--the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead". Introduction to Bhagavad-gita as it is

[moderator's note: Please use a more neutral signature. Others feel you are using your signature to drive home the "no fall" point, with every post you make, even when threads are on other topics.]

[Shivaduta 0]

Joking aside... suchandra prabhuji...

we love your posts and all others which contain such a confluence of knowledge...

if this propogation of knowledge didnt happen and knowledge stayed in the books it was written in then so many people would be poorer indeed...

Carry on the good work and i will carry on reading silently "assimilating the knowledge" and joking occasionally

[JustRish 0]

Okay, I am going to be reading through all your posts one by one. Would have helped if you kept it short and simple but its all good lol.Looks like I've missed a big fight or something.

[theist 1]

 

Okay, I am going to be reading through all your posts one by one. Would have helped if you kept it short and simple but its all good lol.Looks like I've missed a big fight or something.

 

You didn't miss much I assure you. It's one that has been ongoing for years and on this forum for months. It is sure to repeat itself unfortunately.Oh, and of course nothing was resolved.

[Beggar 0]

 

You didn't miss much I assure you. It's one that has been ongoing for years and on this forum for months. It is sure to repeat itself unfortunately.Oh, and of course nothing was resolved.

Personally, I have learned some things during these fights-discussions-quarrels. I have read statements by Srila Prabhupada in letters and lectures, that I have never seen before. I have read quotes from the books, used by those on all sides, that I had read but somehow overlooked. I think that I have a better appreciation as to why someone in ISKCON circles would believe that the conditioned jivas were in Goloka , but I certainly don't accept that. So there has been some give and take, although perhaps minute. I just don't like it when there is an attempted coup to take over this forum. In this respect, there are no ground rules here and if there are they are certainly not followed, except for deleting some of my sillier posts. Looking back through the archives I think that Audarya S. Discussions has certainly seen better days. IOW it's getting worse, not better.

[theist 1]

 

Personally, I have learned some things during these fights-discussions-quarrels. I have read statements by Srila Prabhupada in letters and lectures, that I have never seen before. I have read quotes from the books, used by those on all sides, that I had read but somehow overlooked. I think that I have a better appreciation as to why someone in ISKCON circles would believe that the conditioned jivas were in Goloka , but I certainly don't accept that. So there has been some give and take, although perhaps minute. I just don't like it when there is an attempted coup to take over this forum. In this respect, there are no ground rules here and if there are they are certainly not followed, except for deleting some of my sillier posts. Looking back through the archives I think that Audarya S. Discussions has certainly seen better days. IOW it's getting worse, not better.

 

Well then it falls to us to be more disciplined Beggar. We are adults and should be able to respect the intergrated of a thread someone else has started just like in a normal conversation between a group of prople.

 

I have made this mistake more than anyone but i think we should be more careful in the future.

[theist 1]

.

[Beggar 0]

 

Well then it falls to us to be more disciplined Beggar. We are adults and should be able to respect the intergrated of a thread someone else has started just like in a normal conversation between a group of prople.

 

I have made this mistake more than anyone but i think we should be more careful in the future.

But when we float ourselves on the sea of Audarya like a battleship, and always fly the war flag, like putting:

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha“.Mayapur, February 18, 1977-“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” SB 8.24.48

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad Gita as it is 4.6

at the end of every post, it's going to raise the ire of the anti-party. Obviously these are quotes by Srila Prabhupada but some of us believe that they have a different over-all meaning in the context of the full body of Srila Prabhupada's work and guru, sadhu and sastra. So by putting these at the end of every post no matter what the subject, Gaura Gopal is essentially saying that his interpretation is one with Srila Prabhupada and the other side are fools and rascals. Eventually it gets under one's skin, but he is never called on it. And of course he is also using every opportunity to make direct propaganda on any topic which is even remotely related. Some how there has to be some standard or movement toward the center, if not (to quote Daffy Duck)--- "Of course you know, this means war!" (or the continuation of it)

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Many posters on this forum tend to propagandize their viewpoints, or their guru and camp etc. We all do to some extent, because whatever we have learned about Krsna Consciousness we have learned from others who by the system of guru/disciple we are beholden. Yet this is called "Spiritual Discussions" and really to discuss a topic we must at least at some point retreat to the neutral position. From that neutral position we can at least try to be open minded and see the other side of an issue, after all that's what a discussion really is, for it is not a monologue to ourselves or our own mind. I don't think in the last few years of first lurking on these discussions and then becoming a poster, that I have seen such a dedicated propagandist and anti-discusser as Gaura Gopal Prabhu AKA Sarva gattah, Swarupa, Vigraha et. all. It seems that his real purpose on Audarya, Spiritual Discussions is to convince as many viewers and poster, especially those who are sitting on the fence of his viewpoint on the origin of the jiva. For the most part he represents a belief system that is quite rigid and authoritarian, something like a right wing politician bordering on some sort of facism. He wraps himself in the flag of loyalty to Srila Prabhupada implying that he alone, along with his small coterie, has the real vision of Srila Prabhupada.

It's almost as if Spiritual Discussions is some sort of internet talk show, except that our words come out through a keyboard, and some of us are competing to be the host or moderator. Earlier today, Pacific U.S. time, I responded with a barrage of cut and paste posts. I did this to point out that this is what we are being subjected to, although Theist took it straight and it went over his head. Personally, I really don't want to be the host of this show and I don't spend my days obsessing over the origin of the soul. But somehow even if I am misguided by my own egotism, Gaura Gopal's brazen attempt to take over this forum with his ideology, really pushes my buttons. Militant Rtvks, Fall-vadis and Sleeper-vadis are the "chosen ones" they believe that they are Prabhupada's real followers and that everyone else is a dupe. They are militant because within their harangue and rant, is a basic black and white judgment of those who do not agree. Theirs is not a world of shades of gray but rather black and white. They are the fundamentalists, even the literists (even more rigid than literalists) of the Krsna Consciousness family. Such a mentality does not engage in discussion but rather immediately draws battle lines. The real question for those of use not of that ilk is how should we respond, to those who are trying to muscle us by their words of judgment and condemnation? Yeah, I know that sometimes I can be very judgmental also. But I can safely say that sometimes I can step back and doubt my own sureness. After all, are not I also a person who despite so much reading, hearing and chanting bewildered by the allurements of this world? So who am I to chastise others thereby taking a role that is really an monopoly of a person in the position of guru? So yes even though my humility is mostly false, sometimes I get a glimpse of this and I believe this is what it takes to enter into an honest discussion. And yes, I am tired of being hammered by all the propaganda, which is inserted somehow, even at the bottom of all such posts, even if it appears to be a different topic It's like a relentless barrage, almost like we are being bombed by words in an attempt to make us submit. So this goes far beyond the issue of the origin of the soul. It is even more primal than a question of whether it is spiritual in quality, the real question is where is there sanity in it? All kidding aside to me it seems a type of obsessive madness, and we should wonder what lies beneath it? And hope and pray that it is not contagious.

 

Very good post Grasshopper! Now you have learned your lesson well, my son. Ahead of you are great challenges. Remember, always walk lightly on rice paper, never to crack it and always carry a big stick.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Looking back through the archives I think that Audarya S. Discussions has certainly seen better days. IOW it's getting worse, not better.

 

I think that as devotees many of us did not learn how to deal with diversity in the realm of philosophy and doctrine. Prabhupada made everything black or white, but now it is quite obvious that there are other colors as well. Even the "Prabhupada only" camp is seriously split over issues such as jiva's origin, guru's qualifications, or post-Prabhupada parampara practicalities.

 

What is the solution? More maturity in our bhajana? Little less desire for self glorification ("I'm right, and this proves it"), and more desire to glorify the Lord and His devotees?