Union with Krishna ,spiritual death?

Redsox · February 1, 2008

I always thought merging with krishna is an ultimate form of union with Him, because you are completely one with Him then, you never leave Him and He never leaves you at that point. I thought these relationships (servant, friendship/brother, mother/father, husband/lover) with krishna are a way to find our union with Him, but some say this is spiritual death...can anyone explain this more to me? thanks in advance.

Beggar · February 1, 2008

I always thought merging with krishna is an ultimate form of union with Him, because you are completely one with Him then, you never leave Him and He never leaves you at that point. I thought these relationships (servant, friendship/brother, mother/father, husband/lover) with krishna are a way to find our union with Him, but some say this is spiritual death...can anyone explain this more to me? thanks in advance.

See if you can find your answer in this passage:

<center>THE PATH OF THE HEART

</center>

Disciple: In the Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says:

bahunam janmanam ante

jñanavan mam prapadyate

vasudevah sarvam iti

sa mahatma sudurlabhah

(Bg. 7.19)

["After many, many births, the jñani, person in knowledge (who happens to achieve the association of My pure devotee) finally comes to understand that the whole universe of moving and stationary beings is of the nature of Vasudeva, alone, in as much all are subordinate to Vasudeva. (I, as Vasudeva am the source and substance of all that be.) Having grasped this conception, he surrenders unto Me. Know such a great soul to be extremely rare."]

What exactly is the meaning, here?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: From 'brahma' conception, the different installments follow. In brahma realisation, there is a 'mass' of consciousness: 'all-consciousness'. Then, the nest step will come: the consciousness is of individual character – with deeper vision, individuality is added to consciousness. There is consciousness plus individuality.

Consciousness and Personality

In fact, no consciousness can exist without individuality, without personality. So, the consciousness is personal: personality and consciousness, they cannot be separated, one from the other. What is differentiated from personality, that is only the halo of the personality – it is something like that. And that 'halo' – that brahma – is also the combination of minutest personality, of souls1.

Substance is of two kinds: ksara, or changing, perishable; and aksara, unchanging, eternal. In the Bhagavad-gita (15:16) Lord Krishna says: ksarah sarvani bhutani – whatever we see in the changing aspect of the world, that is called ksara. And what is unchangeable is called aksara. Then, He says:

yasmat ksaram atito 'ham

aksarad api cottamah

ato 'smi loke vede ca

prathitah purusottamah

(BG 15:18)

"My existence transcends both of these two substances, ksara – aksara. So, I am purusottamah – My name is 'Purusottama'. My glories are sung in the world and in the scriptures, as Purusottama, the Supreme Person."

'Purusottama' means Vasudeva. So, bahunam janmanam ante...; after many births, when the jñanis, those of the impersonal school, come to understand that the Prime Cause of the consciousness of their quest is a personal one, then they come to conceive of Vasudeva.

Real Devotion – Most Rare

But such jñanis are very rarely to be found. Mostly, jñanis cannot cross this line. They are lost there:

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad anghrayah

(SB 10:2:32)

["O lotus-eyed Lord, although non-devotees who accept severe penances and austerities to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence remains impure. They simply speculate in various ways and do not seek the means to take shelter of You. Because they have no regard for Your lotus feet, they simply fall down from their position of imagined superiority into material existence again."]

Generally, it is the fate of the jñanis to climb up to the highest position with great effort, and then, when they cannot grasp that 'consciousness' means 'person' – they cannot cross that understanding – they have to revert back. They have to come back, fall back. And for those who can cross this line, who can understand that: "Yes, consciousness means person – a Big Personality. I am small...;" bhakti begins there. The relation of subordination of the lower to the Higher, that comes into effect. And, sa mahatma sudurlabhah – such a person among the jñanis is very rarely to be found, who can take the positive connection of the higher aspect of life. Mostly they come back, they have to come back from there. After much penance, they climb up to that high mark, but they cannot accommodate that "the higher entity must be dealt with devotion," so they have to come back.

Personality with Potency

But those who realise: vasudevah sarvam iti, that Vasudeva – Purusottama – is personal, they can 'cross the line' and enter Vaikuntha, the service area proper.

And there, we are told, gradually as their vision grows more and more, they can find potency on the side of the personal God. Then they become the devotees of Lakshmi-Narayana, and enter completely into Vaikuntha-seva. And in that service, we find awe, reverence; there are sastric (scriptural) rules, and also examples of the higher-realised souls, to guide them.

The Search for Full Engagement

And in that Vaikuntha-seva, if the soul does not find the whole of his innate nature having full engagement, there will be some sort of thirst, some inner tendency which cannot find any corresponding relation to satisfy itself. And when he feels this kind of urge from within, he has to search after another rasa2, for a purer, more friendly service than the filial service3.

And ultimately the madhura-rasa service – the sweetheart's service, in consorthood – urges him to go up. It urges him to go up, and to go deeper. And gradually, by coming in contact with such (madhura-rasa) agents, he finds his own heart blossoming. And blossoming to its fullest extent, his heart takes him gradually towards Goloka Vrindavana4...

The Service of Reality the Beautiful

Then he can see that what was (initially realised as) 'brahma'; then Paramatma, or Vasudeva; then Lakshmi-Narayana, that has gradually come to him as Krishna consciousness, not Narayana consciousness. Superceding Narayana consciousness he comes in contact with Krishna consciousness of the Reality. He is awakened – he finds himself awakened in a plane where he sees the all-connecting, all-harmonising principle is no longer Narayana, but Krishna – He is showing Himself as Krishna. Then he is fully awakened, and at the same time he sees that the environment, and the object of his search, is also fully equipped. This is full-fledged theism.

Full-fledged theism – where the theistic conviction receives its satisfaction in the fullest way. Just as, with the opening of the eye we can see the world, and according to the degree of out sight we come to see the subtlest thing of the environment, so also, by our inner awakenment of the fullest type, we come to a particular world, environment, and that is Vrindavana – Goloka Vrindavana, the land of love. And movement there is spontaneous; and all around, we find the environment only friendly. It is so simple, so friendly; and the dealings of all who are there are filled with so much intimacy.

And in Vrindavana we will find that our thirst for any higher change of environment, of association, no longer needs to be quenched; but there is thirst, eternal thirst, for coming in closer relation with them, closer connection with them. There is no possibility of any higher change of environment – where he has reached is almost final – and now the only remaining thing, is how to come into a more and more close connection with the environment. And that becomes the initiative of our movement there: more and more intimate connection with the environment. The environment is eternal, but in the intimacy of connection – the 'competition' (in loving service), the movement, is there. And the guidance is given according to that.

Merging in Krishna Consciousness

In this way, there is progress. There is some sort of 'necessity', by which the service is moving. And, there is repetition – a kind of 'repetition', but it is ever-fresh, ever-new! It is ever-new, and it is only a question of the time. For example, every day when I am hungry, in the morning, food is tasteful to me, and not always – by the movement of the time, it is like that. In this way, everything is palatable, not stale. In that plane, there is movement of time, but it is eternal. It is managed by yogamaya5 in such a way.

And finally, there we will attain the fullest satisfaction of all the inner parts of our system, the wholesale satisfaction of every atom of every constituent part of our spiritual body: priti anga lage kale, priti anga mora – "Every part of my every limb, cries for union with the corresponding part of every limb of the other side." Sambandha – relationship with the environment – may come to such a stage, that every atom consistuting my spiritual body and mind, will aspire after union with every corresponding part of the environment.

In this way, in such a friendly way, so many are moving there, and it is adjusted accordingly by yogamaya. And this is the highest conception.

Priti anga lage kale, priti anga mora – "Every atom of my existence is in loving aspiration with the environment, and that is Krishna. Krishna consciousness has surrounded me." 'Surrounded me' means, "From all sides it has embraced me; I am lost in the thought of Krishna consciousness, with its detailed, elaborate acquaintance. I am merged, merged in the deepest part of Krishna consciousness, where I shall find "Krishna has captured every atom of my existence. Every atom is feeling as if it is experiencing separate pleasure by His embracing..."

This is possible only in consorthood relationship, where every atom has been embraced, captured, by coming into the most intimate connection with Him. It is called adi-rasa, or mukhya-rasa. The name of Madhurya-rasa is adi-rasa, that is, it is the most original, it is the source of all other rasas, and all other rasas are dependent on it. So it is called 'adi-rasa'. And, mukhya-rasa: the sum total of all 'rasas' – their gist, their essence, is represented here. We are told like that.

And Mahaprabhu came with this gift – madhurya-rasa. It is anarpita carim cirat, "that which was never distributed before" – that of which, it is considered, any distribution was not possible previously, before Him.

Highest Revelation

In Bhaktivinode Thakur's book Jaiva Dharma, we find that one Vaisnava is asking his Gurudeva; "Devotion, it is eternal; but why do you say that it came from Mahaprabhu?" Then his Guru, Paramahamsa Babaji, is saying, "I visited Vrindavana and asked the eternal servitor of Sri Chaitanyadeva, Sanatana Goswami: "This anarpita carim cirat – "which has never been dealt with before" – what is the meaning underlying it?" Then Sanatana Goswami replied: "Bhakti is eternal; in 'Narada-bhakti-sutra', 'Sandilya-sutra', all such scriptures, this has been given – but the type of devotion which Mahaprabhu came with, which we meet after the advent of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva, that was not previously at any time open to the ordinary person. So, it is called 'anarpita carim'. And what is that standard of devotion? It is this: complete surrender to Krishna in consorthood, where every atom of the jiva-soul gets welcomed and embraced by the corresponding atom of Krishna consciousness – madhura-rasa. That was not open to the public before. This is my finding, my faith. You may accept, or not accept..." Sanatana Goswami told like this to that Vaisnava: "This is my prvate conception – you may take it, or not." This was his reply.

The World of Dedication

So devotion has its beginning; the beginning of devotional life is here, where Krishna says 'vasudevah sarvam iti...' ("I, Vasudeva, am the source and substance of all that be" – BG 7:19). Then, the beginning of bhakti, the primary admission into the devotional school above jñana (knowledge) and vairagya (renunciation), that is santa-rasa ('passive' relation with the Lord). And from there, the gradation: dasya-rasa (servitude); then sakhya-rasa (fraternity); then vatsalya-rasa (parenthood); then madhura-rasa (conjugal love). All this is given in details in Ramananda-samvada6.

In this way, bhakti is going up. Systematically, we are to understand, and digest, digest what is bhakti. But, in the beginning, we are to have a broad conception of the positive world, the world of dedication.

NOTES, complied by Sripad B.S. Tridandi Maharaj:

1. 'Brahma' or 'brahmajyoti', the 'infinite light' – is in fact composed of innumerable, individual, infinitesimal conscious units ('cetana'), 'resting' in their potential or unmanifest state – something like a deep (dreamless) sleep. (We may note here in reference to Srila Sridhar Maharaj's ensuing explanation about the inability of most jñanis (liberationists) to realise personality within consciousness, that such jñanis mistakenly believe that the achievement of this state – known as 'kaivalya-mukti', non-differentiated liberation – is the highest of all possible attainments. They further misguidedly consider such attainment to be "absolute oneness with God".)

2. Rasa: A soul's specific service mood / relationship with the Lord, and the 'taste' derived therefrom.

3. Srila Sridhar Maharaj is here referring to dasya-rasa: service in the mood of a servant to his Master. (He uses here the adjective 'filial', literally the duty of a son to his father.)

4. Goloka Vrindavana: the supreme spiritual planet, abode of Lord Krishna.

5. Yogamaya: the special (internal) potency of Lord Krishna, who arranges and conducts His lila (divine pastimes).

6. This famous discussion (Ramananda-samvada) is recorded by Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami in his sublime account of the life of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita (Madhya-lila, chapter 8: "Talks between Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya"). It is mentioned in this talk only briefly by Srila Sridhar Maharaj, but we give its reference for the reader, because this Ramananda-samvada was most beloved to, and oft quoted by Srila Sridhar Maharaj. On the order of his Guru Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Sridhar Maharaj discovered the location where this historic discussion took place, on thebanks of the Godavari river (Andhra-Pradesh, India) and established a Temple there. He many times pointed out that the entire theological basis of Gaudiya (Caitanyite) Vaisnavism is contained therein.

Redsox · February 1, 2008

Thank you for that. , I will read it over and I will ask if I have any questions.

suchandra · February 1, 2008

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad anghrayah

(SB 10:2:32)

"O lotus-eyed Lord, although non-devotees who accept severe penances and austerities to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence remains impure. They simply speculate in various ways and do not seek the means to take shelter of You. Because they have no regard for Your lotus feet, they simply fall down from their position of imagined superiority into material existence again."

Generally, it is the fate of the jñanis to climb up to the highest position with great effort, and then, when they cannot grasp that 'consciousness' means 'person' – they cannot cross that understanding – they have to revert back.

In sum, don't merge.

Redsox · February 1, 2008

And finally, there we will attain the fullest satisfaction of all the inner parts of our system, the wholesale satisfaction of every atom of every constituent part of our spiritual body: priti anga lage kale, priti anga mora – "Every part of my every limb, cries for union with the corresponding part of every limb of the other side." Sambandha – relationship with the environment – may come to such a stage, that every atom consistuting my spiritual body and mind, will aspire after union with every corresponding part of the environment.

In sum, don't merge.

so feeling krishna in every single atom of the spiritual body is not merging with krishna? What are you doing in that instance if you are not merging, your spiritual body into krishna? If you say that you are hoping for union with krishna , so doesn't that make the merging into krishna the result of that relationship?

Redsox · February 1, 2008

Then he can see that what was (initially realised as) 'brahma'; then Paramatma, or Vasudeva; then Lakshmi-Narayana, that has gradually come to him as Krishna consciousness, not Narayana consciousness. Superceding Narayana consciousness he comes in contact with Krishna consciousness of the Reality. He is awakened – he finds himself awakened in a plane where he sees the all-connecting, all-harmonising principle is no longer Narayana, but Krishna – He is showing Himself as Krishna. Then he is fully awakened, and at the same time he sees that the environment, and the object of his search, is also fully equipped. This is full-fledged theism.

loosely translated, I thought krishna meant "the all attractive one".

loosely translated , I thought Narayana meant "The lord of all beings", some say it means "the abode of beings" .

So are you saying the perspective of the bhakta changes when the soul no longer sees God as the supporter of beings, but looks upon Him as the all attractive one? Or are you stating that the bhakta leaves the ritualistic worship of Narayana?

I have another question, why would the bhakta have any need for any ritual when Sriman Narayana is in front of the soul in Vaikunta?

Beggar · February 2, 2008

And finally, there we will attain the fullest satisfaction of all the inner parts of our system, the wholesale satisfaction of every atom of every constituent part of our spiritual body: priti anga lage kale, priti anga mora – "Every part of my every limb, cries for union with the corresponding part of every limb of the other side." Sambandha – relationship with the environment – may come to such a stage, that every atom consistuting my spiritual body and mind, will aspire after union with every corresponding part of the environment.

Look at this paragraph. " the wholesale satisfaction of every atom of every constituent part of our spiritual body: priti anga lage kale, priti anga mora – "Every part of my every limb, cries for union with the corresponding part of every limb of the other side." In this type of merging we maintain a spiritual body which is distinct and seperate from the Lord, who also has a spiritual body. It is said, "as is above, so is below", so the material bodies that we have here are a perverted reflection of our eternal spiritual bodies or forms. This means that we are eternally individuals.

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase:
Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 4.5

śrī-bhagavān uvāca

bahūni me vyatītāni

janmāni tava cārjuna

tāny ahaḿ veda sarvāṇi

na tvaḿ vettha parantapa

SYNONYMS

śrī-bhagavān uvāca — the Personality of Godhead said; bahūni — many; me — of Mine; vyatītāni — have passed; janmāni — births; tava — of yours; ca — and also; arjuna — O Arjuna; tāni — those; aham — I; veda — do know; sarvāṇi — all; na — not; tvam — you; vettha — know; parantapa — O subduer of the enemy.

TRANSLATION

The Personality of Godhead said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!

PURPORT

In the Brahma-saḿhitā (5.33) we have information of many, many incarnations of the Lord. It is stated there:

advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam

ādyaḿ purāṇa-puruṣaḿ nava-yauvanaḿ ca

vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

"I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda [Kṛṣṇa], who is the original person — absolute, infallible, without beginning. Although expanded into unlimited forms, He is still the same original, the oldest, and the person always appearing as a fresh youth. Such eternal, blissful, all-knowing forms of the Lord are usually understood by the best Vedic scholars, but they are always manifest to pure, unalloyed devotees."

It is also stated in Brahma-saḿhitā (5.39):

rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan

nānāvatāram akarod bhuvaneṣu kintu

kṛṣṇaḥ svayaḿ samabhavat paramaḥ pumān yo

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

"I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda [Kṛṣṇa], who is always situated in various incarnations such as Rāma, Nṛsiḿha and many subincarnations as well, but who is the original Personality of Godhead known as Kṛṣṇa, and who incarnates personally also."

In the Vedas also it is said that the Lord, although one without a second, manifests Himself in innumerable forms. He is like the vaidurya stone, which changes color yet still remains one. All those multiforms are understood by the pure, unalloyed devotees, but not by a simple study of the Vedas (vedeṣu durlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau). Devotees like Arjuna are constant companions of the Lord, and whenever the Lord incarnates, the associate devotees also incarnate in order to serve the Lord in different capacities. Arjuna is one of these devotees, and in this verse it is understood that some millions of years ago when Lord Kṛṣṇa spoke the Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god Vivasvān, Arjuna, in a different capacity, was also present. But the difference between the Lord and Arjuna is that the Lord remembered the incident whereas Arjuna could not remember. That is the difference between the part-and-parcel living entity and the Supreme Lord. Although Arjuna is addressed herein as the mighty hero who could subdue the enemies, he is unable to recall what had happened in his various past births. Therefore, a living entity, however great he may be in the material estimation, can never equal the Supreme Lord. Anyone who is a constant companion of the Lord is certainly a liberated person, but he cannot be equal to the Lord. The Lord is described in the Brahma-saḿhitā as infallible (acyuta), which means that He never forgets Himself, even though He is in material contact. Therefore, the Lord and the living entity can never be equal in all respects, even if the living entity is as liberated as Arjuna. Although Arjuna is a devotee of the Lord, he sometimes forgets the nature of the Lord, but by the divine grace a devotee can at once understand the infallible condition of the Lord, whereas a nondevotee or a demon cannot understand this transcendental nature. Consequently these descriptions in the Gītā cannot be understood by demonic brains. Kṛṣṇa remembered acts which were performed by Him millions of years before, but Arjuna could not, despite the fact that both Kṛṣṇa and Arjuna are eternal in nature. We may also note herein that a living entity forgets everything due to his change of body, but the Lord remembers because He does not change His sac-cid-ānanda body. He is advaita, which means there is no distinction between His body and Himself. Everything in relation to Him is spirit — whereas the conditioned soul is different from his material body. And because the Lord's body and self are identical, His position is always different from that of the ordinary living entity, even when He descends to the material platform. The demons cannot adjust themselves to this transcendental nature of the Lord, which the Lord Himself explains in the following verse.

Redsox · February 2, 2008

Look at this paragraph. " the wholesale satisfaction of every atom of every constituent part of our spiritual body: priti anga lage kale, priti anga mora – "Every part of my every limb, cries for union with the corresponding part of every limb of the other side." In this type of merging we maintain a spiritual body which is distinct and seperate from the Lord, who also has a spiritual body. It is said, "as is above, so is below", so the material bodies that we have here are a perverted reflection of our eternal spiritual bodies or forms. This means that we are eternally individuals.

Hmm, I thought we already established that we eternally exist as individuals.

I am talking about the merging with krishna. The emphasis on the union with krishna, where krishna is felt at every limb of the body.... that the spiritual body feels krishna in every part of it at the pinnacle of its realization of Him, but isn't this a merger then with krishna?

Also are you saying that no merger with krishna is possible without madhurya bhava? How about Ramanuja? How about people like him who gained moksha? what do you think happened to Ramanuja?

Beggar · February 2, 2008

Redsox to merge with Krsna

Business week has reported that Redsox Inc. has attempted a hostile merger with Krsna. The report says that Redsox offered 1,0000000008 Gazillion dollars in the proposed buyout. Part of the proposal is that Krsna would stay on as the CEO of Goloka Vrndavana indefinitely. :crazy2:

Redsox · February 2, 2008

Redsox to merge with Krsna
Business week has reported that Redsox Inc. has attempted a hostile merger with Krsna. The report says that Redsox offered 1,0000000008 Gazillion dollars in the proposed buyout. Part of the proposal is that Krsna would stay on as the CEO of Goloka Vrndavana indefinitely.

:deal:

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