Competing Vaishnava Websites?

[suchandra 1]

Does the internet create bogus competition among Vaishnava websites?

 

ISKCON leaders are beginning to recognise that numerous of their "prospective new members" have access to the internet web, so their newcomer members reading sites which might cause bewilderment of the young innocent Vaishnavas?

 

ISKCON leaders complain that there are at present over 600 Krishna oriented sites. But who actually started "the bewildering array" of competitive web sites, since they started all of this competition spirit in the first place. Note they also reference to "recordings", like e.g. youtube videos?

 

They can conceal things from people in the temples, ok good, but most people are nowadays domiciliating outside of the temples and they have accession to the web. Even a few ISKCON folks go out of the temple to visit internet cafés and send messages or to audarya fellowship. This is how Krishna is breaking down their ecclesiastical bogus monopoly - Krishna is employing the World Wide Web to educate people, quite clever!

 

FROM the official ISKCON web site:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=5124

 

1. Educate - To create a clear path through the often bewildering array of books and other media available to a newcomer to ISKCON today. Some 600 titles, recordings and websites don't make it easy for someone without guidance to understand what they should read first. We wanted to not only provide a systematic introduction, but to ensure that each member had access to locally delivered classes and a year's worth of weekend courses in the practical skills of devotion.

[sanatan 0]

Some questions raised:

 

Is there a prevailing assumption in the Vaisnava world as a whole that anyone who comes to ISKCON as a new bhakta is going to get screwed over in some way or another?

 

Isn't it better for a new ISKCON bhakta to follow the program with faith that is perhaps blind, until he/she has gained sufficient maturity and spiritual strength to objectively evaluate the unfortunate circumstances of the past and their ongoing effects?

 

Is ISKCON, in truth, an intransigently horrible organization, or is this a conclusion that is often erroneously drawn from information available online?

 

Personally, my experience with ISKCON has been 95%+ positive, but then I was never a live-in bhakta. However, the trusting innocence of many years ago is gone; I've heard and read too much, a large part of it online.

 

Mybe a fifth principle should be renunciation of the internet for two years?

[suchandra 1]

 

Some questions raised:

 

Is there a prevailing assumption in the Vaisnava world as a whole that anyone who comes to ISKCON as a new bhakta is going to get screwed over in some way or another?

 

Isn't it better for a new ISKCON bhakta to follow the program with faith that is perhaps blind, until he/she has gained sufficient maturity and spiritual strength to objectively evaluate the unfortunate circumstances of the past and their ongoing effects?

 

Is ISKCON, in truth, an intransigently horrible organization, or is this a conclusion that is often erroneously drawn from information available online?

 

 

[moderator's note: link http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=541935 fixed]

 

Personally, my experience with ISKCON has been 95%+ positive, but then I was never a live-in bhakta. However, the trusting innocence of many years ago is gone; I've heard and read too much, a large part of it online.

 

Mybe a fifth principle should be renunciation of the internet for two years?

These are indeed good questions and let's hope the more advanced members have the details. "Renuncation of the internet for two years", it is basically ISKCON who's setting up mega internet projects with more than 1000 photographs on just one page,

http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=541935

(seems the url has to be copied into the browser since the forum software doesnt open it, or delete the colon smash colon at the end.)

 

http://kirtanaradio.com/wm_player.shtml

 

 

[moderator's note: link http://photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=541935 fixed]

 

[Sarva gattah 0]

For anyone who joins the Temple, it is best they concentrate on chanting and hearing Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita as it is etc first and keep away from all internet sites.

When I first joined the Temple it was only after a year did I learn many letters were sent to me from family and friends. I was never given those letters and today some will not agree with what the Temple President in 1972 did however, I am grateful my early learning was not disturbed from outside mail, it was difficult enough to handle doubts in my own mind.

I am a firm believer that anyone who wants to be a 'live in monk' with ISKCON, must 'turn off' from the outside world and be 're-programmed' from all the previous nonsense conditioning that has riveted them to thinking they are the material body.

 

We never even drank or ate food that was not first offered to the Deities, such isolation and nothing other than Temple Krishna katha is the best way to learn and always remember.

Many will not like the use of the word 're-programmed' because of the media and cultist deprogrammers. I put it to you this way, when a student studies for an exam, they shut themselves off from the outside world of friends, family, TV and Internet only to concentrate on learning the subjects they are studying.

Sankirtan (chanting and book distribution) was the best way of being trained up, so many questions out on the streets that we learned to answer with a Krishna Conscious solution. So if one is introduced to Krishna on a site like Audarya Fellowship and wants to be more than a congregational member and be a live in monk, then I suggest they just concentrate 100% on studying Srila Prabhupada’s books, stay off the web due to its diverse temptations and following the Temple program, associating closely with fixed up devotees. This will lay the foundations for any later challenge or threat to their Krishna Consciousness.

It is like the origin of the jiva issue, “the fact that we all originated from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago”( http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Gita/web/text/GT039.html 73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6) ,was so ingrained deep within my consciousness due to the strict beginnings we had as Brahmacari’s and the personal association I had with Srila Prabhupada at the 83 Hereford St. Sydney Temple.

It was in the Temple room that Srila Prabhupada and myself began discussing the paintings of Lord Caitanya and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat Thakur that I innocently put on the step of his Vysasana to keep them off the floor while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada laughed and laughed saying that is not where those Personalities go, the emotion in his eyes and his humility I will never forget. It was during his gentle chastisement of me he said - “You came here away from such wonderful association of Lord Caitanya and Krsna, and now you have come back, when you go back home back to Godhead you will understand all this” For Hari Sauri’s benefit who knows me well, including all the struggles I have had, NO their was only Prabhupada and myself in the room, everyone else, including Hari Sauri, was out on Sankirtan. This was an intimate personal relationship between my Spiritual Master and myself that others may doubt, but they will NEVER take such a wonderful PASTIME away from me, I will remember this to my last days on this planet.

It is that kind of association that rivets ones understanding that can never be swayed by any other argument, as the last six months has shown

For a beginner - Just stay in Krishna’s Temple reality It is better than any Vaishnava website FOR learning about Krishna.

So the conclusion is for a new devotee who wants to be a serious Hare Krishna devotee living in the Temple – avoid the Internet due to its diversity and temptations, read all of Prabhupada’s books first and become convinced

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Isn't it better for a new ISKCON bhakta to follow the program with faith that is perhaps blind, until he/she has gained sufficient maturity and spiritual strength to objectively evaluate the unfortunate circumstances of the past and their ongoing effects?

 

 

This is wishful thinking. the cat is out of the bag. hardly anybody comes to Iskcon without having some knowledge of Iskcon's chequered history. The only thing you can do is help them process all the information they already have, and give them a way to relate to what they will hear in the future.

 

Last thing Iskcon needs is another generation of kept in the dark bhaktas who are thought of as incapable of sorting out truth from lies. Such devotees eventually find out all about the past problems in our movement and will feel that they were cheated.

[Sarva gattah 0]

This is why a new devotee who enters ashram life needs to have a solid base of Srimad Bhagavatam, Caitanya Caritamrita and the Gita so they can see the difference between Prabhupada's real ISKCON and what some have done in the Name of ISKCON.

It is just like the saying – “you cannot blame Jesus for what the Catholic Church has done in the name of Jesus”

The following quote below is the best understanding as long as one learns from the Srimad Bhagavatam and not sterotype parrot devotees who are imitating Prabhupada, thinking they are better than everyone else because of their external show, instead of humbly and selflessly following him.

 

The seeker of truth has to be qualified so they do not get cheated. The best way to do that is read Prabhupadas books.

 

And do not be afraid to question everything a senior devotee does.

 

If we are cheated or have been cheated in the past by accepting a fallen guru or following and worshiping a fallen guru like I did, then it is our fault for not being thorough.

 

Even Prabhupada waited many years before being initiated. Finding a Guru is very serious. It is said if one is really sincere, then a bonafide Guru will find them, but that depends on ones sincere searching. As Krishna says, “if you take one steep towards me, I will take a hundred towards you”

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Isn't it better for a new ISKCON bhakta to follow the program with faith, gain sufficient maturity and spiritual strength to objectively evaluate

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[sanatan 0]

 

This is wishful thinking. the cat is out of the bag. hardly anybody comes to Iskcon without having some knowledge of Iskcon's chequered history. The only thing you can do is help them process all the information they already have, and give them a way to relate to what they will hear in the future.

 

Last thing Iskcon needs is another generation of kept in the dark bhaktas who are thought of as incapable of sorting out truth from lies. Such devotees eventually find out all about the past problems in our movement and will feel that they were cheated.

 

Good points.

 

 

This is why ...

 

 

The seeker of truth has to be qualified so they do not get cheated. The best way to do that is read Prabhupadas books.

 

And do not be afraid to question everything a senior devotee does.

 

 

If we are cheated or have been cheated in the past by accepting a fallen guru, then it is our fault for not being thorough.

 

 

Even Prabhupada waited many years before being initiated. Finding a Guru is very serious. It is said if one is really sincere, then a bonafide Guru will find them, but that depends on ones sincere searching. As Krishna says, “if you take one steep towards me, I will take a hundred towards you”

 

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Yes and no.

 

Entering spiritual life is a complex and individual, psychological and circumstantial process. Very many factors can come into play.

 

Just saying a person was cheated because he/she deserved to be cheated doesn't excuse much on the part of the organization.

 

IMO, the people who followed Rajneesh deserved to be cheated much more than those who came into ISKCON in the ZA era.

 

Comparing Srila Prabhupada's life with the average devotee's is ridiculous.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

If we are cheated or have been cheated in the past by accepting a fallen guru, then it is our fault for not being thorough.

 

 

 

This is total BS. You "Prabhupadavadis" have no clue how it all works. Like anybody had a choice in zonal acharya days? Or even later. You think I did not learn a lot from Harikesha? What a joke... You should not talk such nonsense. The real guru is Krsna. Even in Prabhupada. Same with people like Harikesha and others. You think we wanted to be "cheated" and that is why it happened? That we were not "thorough enough"? You folks live in a dreamworld...

 

Were YOU "thorough" when accepting Prabhupada? Were you "thorough" when serving under Bhavanada or crooks and liars like him? Lets hear some stories of you standing up to corruption and abuse in Iskcon.

 

Personally, I dont feel cheated at all. I probably learned more from my experiences than you ever did. It is the parrot like devotees who irritate me with their naive simplicity and mindles slogans.

 

You say: "And do not be afraid to question everything a senior devotee does." Did YOU question anything Prabhupada did? Somehow I doubt that very much. You took it all as gospel, and you still do.

[suchandra 1]

 

Good points.

 

 

 

Yes and no.

 

Entering spiritual life is a complex and individual, psychological and circumstantial process. Very many factors can com into play.

 

Just saying a person was cheated because he/she deserved to be cheated doesn't excuse much on the part of the organization.

 

IMO, the people who followed Rajneesh deserved to be cheated much more than those who came into ISKCON in the ZA era.

 

Comparing Srila Prabhupada's life with the average devotee's is ridiculous.

Thanks sanatan, this seems essential, when entering "cheated" at Prabhupada's complete work, it says,

 

<table class="search-headline-table" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>Search Results for "cheated" From This Site </td> <td align="right"> <!--tagline-->

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="search-line" bgcolor="#000000" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <small>Found 971 items, now showing 1 - 10

</small>what indicates that for Prabhupada it was of great concern to point out that people should NOT be cheated.

 

1. Room Conversation with Ratan Singh Rajda M.P. 'Nationalism and...

"More money means cheating. You are employing; I ... people will not learn to cheat? This is cheating. I am giving you one ... the implication of this cheating?"

 

2. Morning Walk - December 31, 1973, Los Angeles

"But they want to cheat. How it can be solved? ... one dollar. But it is the cheating process is going on, I pay ... problem can be solved? It is cheating. But the government allows it as....."

 

3. Morning Walk - March 22, 1976, Mayapur, (new98)

"If he s a bogus, if you want to be cheated and cheat others, that will ... they are cheaters and cheated. This is the position ... these cheaters they are cheating, and they accept to......"

 

4. Morning Walk - September 3, 1975, Vrndavana

"There is no religion. All cheating. Why Kṛṣṇa ... sacrificing, he is cheating himself, and he is cheating others also. [break] cheating, envious. Just like ... is being cheated, then..."

 

5. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.2 - London, August 16, 1971

"Then another thing is cheating. So many rascal ... is making money. So cheating. Cheating, illusion, committing mistake. Three ... will appear to cheat the atheists."

 

6. Room Conversation Vrndavana, October 27, 1972, (new98)

"It s a result of trying to cheat māyā then?Prabhupāda: Huh? ... all nonsense. This is cheating. Like this man, he .... It is not cheating? Gosvāmī means one who............"

 

7. Garden Conversation - June 22, 1976, New Vrindaban

"That means you are cheating people. You do not believe ... still write it. That means cheating. Why do you write such ... do not believe? That means cheating. Hmm?"

 

8. Morning Walk - July 9, 1974, Los Angeles

"Everything is all false, cheating. Everything, everything is cheating. Without this Krishna ... they re simply cheating. That is called ... cleansed of all cheating type of religion........"

 

9. Bhagavad-gita 1.13-14 - London, July 14, 1973

"Still, they want to teach. This is cheating. Knowledge must be perfect. ... my imperfect senses? This is cheating. But people want to to cheated. Vañcita-vañcaka-sampradāya...."

 

10. Garden Conversation with Dr. Gerson and devotees - June 22, 1975,...

"This is going on. This is cheating. Both of them are ... society of cheaters and cheated. The so-called human ... of the cheaters and cheated. One man is cheated, another man is cheater..."

 

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[theist 1]

 

Is there a prevailing assumption in the Vaisnava world as a whole that anyone who comes to ISKCON as a new bhakta is going to get screwed over in some way or another?

I don't know about the "Vaisnava world" but I strongly disagree with ecclesiatical guru system that Iskcon seems to be wedded to.

 

And the idea of isolating new members for two years from any other knowledge that challenges this mundane system until you get them good and conditioned to the institution thought process justs REEKS of the lowest form of what is commonly called cultism.

 

Lot of blind faith being suggested on this thread. Srila Prabhupada wrote in the Gita that "blind faith is condemned."

[sanatan 0]

Suchandra...that's a comprehensive list of Srila Prabhupada's opinions on the subject!

 

I just haven't personally seen people become ISKCON devotees with the motive of "wanting to be cheated", or with the desire to cheat others. The lifestyle has always been too demanding, and this didn't change in the post-Prabhupada era; there has to be a sincere motive at first.

 

Certainly many came and still come with anarthas mixed in with a desire for the spiritual: those with strong material attachments (me), those with unresolved pschological issues, those looking for shelter from a very nasty world, and on and on, ad infinitum. I've seen also seen more than a few good souls join and their spiritual lives blossom.

 

The ones who ended up becoming domineering power freaks and criminals were very certainly like that pre-ISKCON, or had the tendencies lying in wait for the right opportunity. But their motives in joining...at least they were sincere at the beginning.

[sanatan 0]

 

I don't know about the "Vaisnava world" but I strongly disagree with ecclesiatical guru system that Iskcon seems be wedded to.

 

And the idea of isolating new members for two years from any other knowledge that challenges this mundane system until you get them good and conditioned to the institution thought process justs REEKS of the lowest form of what is commonly called cultism.

 

Lot of blind faith being suggested on this thread. Srila Prabhupada wrote in the Gita that "blind faith is condemned."

 

Theist:

 

Don't get the impression that I'm advocating the ideas I put forth in response to the first post in this thread...merely thinking out loud about important questions.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

This is total BS. You "Prabhupadavadis" have no clue how it all works. Like anybody had a choice in zonal acharya days? Or even later. You think I did not learn a lot from Harikesha? What a joke... You should not talk such nonsense. The real guru is Krsna. Even in Prabhupada. Same with people like Harikesha and others. You think we wanted to be "cheated" and that is why it happened? That we were not "thorough enough"? You folks live in a dreamworld...

 

Were YOU "thorough" when accepting Prabhupada? Were you "thorough" when serving under Bhavanada or crooks and liars like him? Lets hear some stories of you standing up to corruption and abuse in Iskcon.

 

Personally, I dont feel cheated at all. I probably learned more from my experiences than you ever did. It is the parrot like devotees who irritate me with their naive simplicity and mindles slogans.

 

You say: "And do not be afraid to question everything a senior devotee does." Did YOU question anything Prabhupada did? Somehow I doubt that very much. You took it all as gospel, and you still do.

 

Wow, you know I agree with most of what you say however, in 1972 there were so many cults and religious movements around but I was attracted to only Srila Prabhupada, call it destiny call, call it fate, call it what you want, but all we had was ONLY Prabhupada.

 

 

Were you "thorough" when serving under Bhavanada or crooks and liars like him? Lets hear some stories of you standing up to corruption and abuse in Iskcon.

 

You say: "And do not be afraid to question everything a senior devotee does." Did YOU question anything Prabhupada did? Somehow I doubt that very much. You took it all as gospel, and you still do.

 

You are 100 percent right, to speak out in those days after 1977 you would be kicked out on your ear. In fact I was one of Bhavananda's biggest supporters. Although I do not think Bhavananda, Harikesha, Bhagavan, Tamal and even Jayatirtha 'planned' their attempts to have Empires and 'yes' servants, they were dedicated sincere genuin disciples of Srila Prabhupada but NEVER realized what it meant to be a humble servant of the servant of Krishna.

Their external 'show' of advancement way out paced their internal level of Krishna Consciousness; therefore the facade could not last. It is something they never planned, it's just that their real internal level of Krishna Consciousness eventually came to light and revealed that they where not that advanced at all. It has to be real to have potency to last and change the world into Krishna Consciousness over the long term.

 

 

Like anybody had a choice in zonal acharya days? Or even later. You think I did not learn a lot from Harikesha? What a joke... You should not talk such nonsense. The real guru is Krsna. Even in Prabhupada. Same with people like Harikesha and others. You think we wanted to be "cheated" and that is why it happened? That we were not "thorough enough"?

 

Thank you for this chastisement, I still have a lot to learn. What you have explained here is a very important understanding that ISKCON historians can study and learn from. This is why Audarya Fellowship is such an important preaching tool

 

 

The real guru is Krsna.

[Sarva gattah 0]

Theist that photo you posted is tweeible. Here is what we should be looking at

 

 

 

 

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by sanatan

Isn't it better for a new ISKCON bhakta to follow the program with faith, gain sufficient maturity and spiritual strength to objectively evaluate

 

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It is pretty obvious why

[Sarva gattah 0]

If we are cheated or have been cheated in the past by accepting a fallen guru or following and worshiping a fallen guru like I did, then it is our fault for not being thorough in our understanding of Guru, shastra and Sadhu. In 1972 however, there were hundreads of cults from TM to guru maharaj but it was only Prabhupada and his teachings that made any sense. After 77 we made the mistake of trying to please Prabhupada by imitating him

 

This is a fact and something to learn from so it never happens again

 

 

[theist 1]

 

Theist:

 

Don't get the impression that I'm advocating the ideas I put forth in response to the first post in this thread...merely thinking out loud about important questions.

 

OK. But please don't scare me like that.

[theist 1]

 

Theist that photo you posted is tweeible. Here is what we should be looking at

 

 

 

 

 

Tweeible????

 

Consider this.

 

Sri Isopanishad

Mantra 10. The wise have explained that one result is derived from the culture of knowledge and that a different result is obtained from the culture of nescience.

Mantra 11. Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Tweeible????

 

Consider this.

 

Sri Isopanishad

 

Mantra 10. The wise have explained that one result is derived from the culture of knowledge and that a different result is obtained from the culture of nescience.

 

Mantra 11. Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality.

 

And your point? Please explain

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Comparing Srila Prabhupada's life with the average devotee's is ridiculous.

 

I am not doing that, the point is initiation is something not to rush into; I am referring to the example Prabhupada set taking initiation in his mature years.

 

In this day and age of so many ISKCON and GAUDIYA MATH Guru’s, it is best to be thoroughly sure based on sadhu, shastra and guru than sorry, even if it takes ten years to find a genuine guru Although if we are sincere, Krsna will send one a real Guru anyway.

I'm aware that this comment will upset some however, one has to undertand there is a bigger picture here based on destiny karma and fate that is difficuIt to understand.

 

Why is someone born at a time where they meet Prabhupada while others don't? why is it that some who have even taken intiation off him leave and are never seen again?

 

Why is that many who never met Prabhupada read his books and became more dedicated than even many of his disciples?

 

For future generations, this is something devotee historians MUST answer

[sanatan 0]

 

OK. But please don't scare me like that.

 

I'll try not to...I used to scare my poor wife half to death when I put my "inner monologues" into words...she tends to take everything I say as my absolutely serious intent.

[Ashvatama 0]

 

For anyone who joins the Temple, it is best they concentrate on chanting and hearing Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita as it is etc first and keep away from all internet sites.

When I first joined the Temple it was only after a year did I learn many letters were sent to me from family and friends. I was never given those letters and today some will not agree with what the Temple President in 1972 did however, I am grateful my early learning was not disturbed from outside mail, it was difficult enough to handle doubts in my own mind.

I am a firm believer that anyone who wants to be a 'live in monk' with ISKCON, must 'turn off' from the outside world and be 're-programmed' from all the previous nonsense conditioning that has riveted them to thinking they are the material body.

 

Many will not like the use of the word 're-programmed' because of the media and cultist deprogrammers. I put it to you this way, when a student studies for an exam, they shut themselves off from the outside world of friends, family, TV and Internet only to concentrate on learning the subjects they are studying.

Sankirtan (chanting and book distribution) was the best way of being trained up, so many questions out on the streets that we learned to answer with a Krishna Conscious solution. So if one is introduced to Krishna on a site like Audarya Fellowship and wants to be more than a congregational member and be a live in monk, then I suggest they just concentrate 100% on studying Srila Prabhupada’s books, stay off the web due to its diverse temptations and following the Temple program, associating closely with fixed up devotees. This will lay the foundations for any later challenge or threat to their Krishna Consciousness.

It is like the origin of the jiva issue, “the fact that we all originated from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago”( http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Gita/web/text/GT039.html 73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6) ,was so ingrained deep within my consciousness due to the strict beginnings we had as Brahmacari’s and the personal association I had with Srila Prabhupada at the 83 Hereford St. Sydney Temple.

It was in the Temple room that Srila Prabhupada and myself began discussing the paintings of Lord Caitanya and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat Thakur that I innocently put on the step of his Vysasana to keep them off the floor while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada laughed and laughed saying that is not where those Personalities go, the emotion in his eyes and his humility I will never forget. It was during his gentle chastisement of me he said - “You came here away from such wonderful association of Lord Caitanya and Krsna, and now you have come back, when you go back home back to Godhead you will understand all this” For Hari Sauri’s benefit who knows me well, including all the struggles I have had, NO their was only Prabhupada and myself in the room, everyone else, including Hari Sauri, was out on Sankirtan. This was an intimate personal relationship between my Spiritual Master and myself that others may doubt, but they will NEVER take such a wonderful PASTIME away from me, I will remember this to my last days on this planet.

It is that kind of association that rivets ones understanding that can never be swayed by any other argument, as the last six months has shown

For a beginner - Just stay in Krishna’s Temple reality It is better than any Vaishnava website FOR learning about Krishna.

So the conclusion is for a new devotee who wants to be a serious Hare Krishna devotee living in the Temple – avoid the Internet due to its diversity and temptations, read all of Prabhupada’s books first and become convinced

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by sanatan

Isn't it better for a new ISKCON bhakta to follow the program with faith, gain sufficient maturity and spiritual strength to objectively evaluate

 

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Were you "thorough" when serving under Bhavanada or crooks and liars like him? Lets hear some stories of you standing up to corruption and abuse in Iskcon.

You say: "And do not be afraid to question everything a senior devotee does." Did YOU question anything Prabhupada did? Somehow I doubt that very much. You took it all as gospel, and you still do.

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ISKCON leaders are beginning to recognise that numerous of their "prospective new members" have access to the internet web, so their newcomer members reading sites which might cause bewilderment of the young innocent Vaishnavas - agree

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The ones who ended up becoming domineering power freaks and criminals were very certainly like that pre-ISKCON, or had the tendencies lying in wait for the right opportunity. But their motives in joining...at least they were sincere at the beginning.

 

I agree with that. Quite a few of these people realized very early on that they can live a very good life by positioning themselves on top of the Iskcon authoritarian power pyramid. They created a system of cronies and kliques, undetected by the naive and trusting rank and file devotees. To some extent this system continues even today. The authoritarian system Srila Prabhupada introduced in Iskcon was their best ally.

 

Devotees were indoctrinated to blindly trust and obey "authorities", and have faith that "Krsna is in control" (i.e. do not try to question what is happening around you). Devotees saw childern and adults abused in various way but because of this brainwashing they thought: "This is the way of full surrender".

 

All the power was placed in the hands of sannyasis, who were young, inexperienced, and completely unsuitable for that ashram. Toward the end Srila Prabhupada realized that giving such people sannyasa was a serious mistake, but there was no time for a real reform. The mold was set, and the disasters followed. To this very day real power is in the hands of the same group of people, and the mentality hardly changed a whole lot. The same slogan is still used to brainwash new people: "The system is perfect. Only your vision is wrong. Become perfect first before you criticize us."

 

Power corrupts. That is why you need a system of checks and balances when it comes to power. Thanks to the internet you can study what happened and who did what in Iskcon. The same people who failed in the past are in power today. Very little accountability. People who could not figure out that Kirtanananda was a total crook run Iskcon today and they are still clueless, or pretend to be so in order to stay in power.

[realist 0]

 

I agree with that. Quite a few of these people realized very early on that they can live a very good life by positioning themselves on top of the Iskcon authoritarian power pyramid. They created a system of cronies and kliques, undetected by the naive and trusting rank and file devotees. To some extent this system continues even today. The authoritarian system Srila Prabhupada introduced in Iskcon was their best ally.

 

Devotees were indoctrinated to blindly trust and obey "authorities", and have faith that "Krsna is in control" (i.e. do not try to question what is happening around you). Devotees saw childern and adults abused in various way but because of this brainwashing they thought: "This is the way of full surrender".

 

All the power was placed in the hands of sannyasis, who were young, inexperienced, and completely unsuitable for that ashram. Toward the end Srila Prabhupada realized that giving such people sannyasa was a serious mistake, but there was no time for a real reform. The mold was set, and the disasters followed. To this very day real power is in the hands of the same group of people, and the mentality hardly changed a whole lot. The same slogan is still used to brainwash new people: "The system is perfect. Only your vision is wrong. Become perfect first before you criticize us."

 

Power corrupts. That is why you need a system of checks and balances when it comes to power. Thanks to the internet you can study what happened and who did what in Iskcon. The same people who failed in the past are in power today. Very little accountability. People who could not figure out that Kirtanananda was a total crook run Iskcon today and they are still clueless, or pretend to be so in order to stay in power.

 

Quote:Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>I do not think Bhavananda, Kirtanananda, Harikesha, Bhagavan, Ramesvara, Hunsaduttah, Tamal and even Jayatirtha 'planned' their attempts to have Empires and 'yes' servants, they were all dedicated sincere genuin disciples of Srila Prabhupada but NEVER realized what it meant to be a humble servant of the servant of Krishna.

 

Their external 'show' of advancement way out paced their internal level of Krishna Consciousness; therefore the facade and imitation could not last. It is something they never planned, it's just that their real internal level of Krishna Consciousness eventually came to light and revealed that they where not that advanced at all. It has to be real to have potency to last and change the world into Krishna Consciousness over the long term

 

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[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Very interesting thread!!

 

I too see the "fallen" gurus as unwitting victims of their own minds as much as victimizers of those who faithfully followed them.

 

As for checks and balances, those are a good idea with regards to institutional management, but, in the spiritual realm, can lead to comedy (or tragedy), as evidenced by some of the GBC theology by committee. Guru, sadhu, and shastra are the basis for spiritual authority, but it sure helps to have an ultimate arbiter--Sri Guru.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

As for checks and balances, those are a good idea with regards to institutional management, but, in the spiritual realm, can lead to comedy (or tragedy), as evidenced by some of the GBC theology by committee. Guru, sadhu, and shastra are the basis for spiritual authority, but it sure helps to have an ultimate arbiter--Sri Guru.

 

giving sannyasa to young westerners eager for fame and adoration was a comedy or a tragedy in your book? in that case the ultimate arbiter - Sri Guru, in His form of Time, clearly marked it as a "failure". Time can be a check and balance as well but it helps to be proactive. There are many warnings against implementing sannyasa in Kali-yuga, shastric as well as traditional. If they are disregarded, Time makes a final correction. Gurus who take risks for the benefit of the Mahaprabhu's mission do just that: take a risk of being WRONG. That does not make them any less qualified, but it is extremely foolish for their disciples not to see the lessons from such failures, or to pretend that such failures do not exist.

 

acharya teaches by practical example of his life. to misunderstand such a life and example is to miss the lessons Sri Guru is teaching us.