What is wrong with the sahajiya viewpoint?

[theist 1]

I have heard that sahajiyas put forward the idea that when ones faith becomes strong they can understand that Krsna can enjoy with women through their own material senses.

 

So they come to see themselves as a transparent medium between Krsna and othe living entities in female form through "rasa" dance and sex play. Of course they say this is dovetailed because Krsna enjoys throught them

 

My question is why would Krsna want to enjoy a bag of flesh, blood and bones? This type of thinking portrays Krsna as a mundane womanizerlust after meat instead of the unlimited transcendental lover.

 

I have heard that even upon attaining perfection in sadhana that advanced devotees keep up the practice just for the sake of leading others on the correct path...teaching by example.

 

To avoid sahajiyaism in our own life it would help to understand it thoroughly.

 

If my basic assummtion of sahajiyaism is correct what could be the physchology for otherwise very intelligent devotees choosing this path?

 

Please add what you have learned in this area.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Be Very Careful About This

Germany: July 8 2007

Sadhana bhakti, the practice of devotion to Sri Krsna, is of two kinds – vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti *[see Endnote 1].

What is vaidhi-bhakti?

yatra ragan avaptatvat

pravrttir upajayate

sasanenaiva sastrasya

sa vaidha bhaktir ucyate

[“When there is no attachment or no spontaneous loving service to the Lord, and one is engaged in the service of the Lord simply out of obedience to the order of the spiritual master or in pursuance of the scriptures, such obligatory service is called vaidhi-bhakti.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.6)]

Nowadays, especially in European countries and in Russia, devotees think they are very ‘rasika’. *[see Endnote 2]. They want rasa (the taste of spiritual mellows). They want to go up to the top of the tree of prema at once. They only want madanakhya-bhava (the highest ecstatic devotional love, situated only in Srimati Radhika). They do not want to follow vaidhi-bhakti. They don’t like vaidhi-bhakti.

This idea is very dangerous, so be very careful about this. Those who have these ideas are nonsense sahajiya-vaisnavas.

We see some sahajiyas at Radha-kunda and in Vrndavana. They give what they call ‘siddha-deha’ to anyone – even to those who don’t know how to clean their hands after passing stool. Such sahajiyas have no knowledge at all; they are very foolish. They give their disciples the so called siddha-deha and tell them, “Now you are a manjari (maidservant) of Vrndavana. You are serving Radha and Krsna there.” Unqualified persons, those who accept this idea, have very beautiful young widowed ladies with them. They begin to artificially taste ‘parakiya-bhava’ with those ladies, (real parakiya-bhava is the paramour love between Sri Krsna and the gopis) and then they beget many children.

Do you understand the meaning? This is very dangerous. I have warned all my disciples – brahmacaris, sannyasis and all others – to be very careful of this.

Sri Krsna has explained to us about the natural tendency of this world, in all living beings, even in snakes, donkeys and monkeys. He has especially explained to Uddhava (in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Canto 11) that the donkey is kicked by the hind legs of the she-donkey as he follows that she-donkey for sex-life.

The stool-eating pig is another example of uncontrolled sex indulgence, as is the she-goat and he-goat. Even when the male-goat is on his way to a slaughterhouse to be killed, if he sees any she-goat, he becomes shameless and wants to have sex with her. This is very amazing – he is having sex at the time of death.

We should be very careful of this – ladies should be careful regarding males, and males should be careful regarding ladies. Be careful of this.

When one has no raga (attachment to Krsna and absorption in His service), one may read from the scriptures that he should engage in bhakti to Krsna, and if he does not do this, he must go to hell. If one thus engages his mind in bhakti by this fear, his activity is called vaidhi-bhakti.

What is raga? What is the meaning of raga? Raga refers to the love for Krsna that is present in the residents of Goloka Vrndavana – in Subala and Sridama, in Nanda Baba and Yasoda Maiya, and especially in Lalita, Visakha and Srimati Radhika. Raga means ‘spontaneous attachment to Sri Krsna’. It is the love by which the Vrajavasis serve Krsna and control Him. This is raga, and the person who has this raga is called ragatmika.

One may develop greed to follow these ragatmika associates of Sri Krsna by hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam from a bona fide Guru or Vaisnava, and then desiring to serve Krsna like Subala, Sridama, and Madhumangala, or like Mother Yasoda.

nandah kim akarod brahman

sreya evam mahodayam

yasoda va maha-bhaga

papau yasyah stanam harih

[“O brahmana, what pious activities did Nanda Maharaja perform by which he received the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna as his son, and what pious activities did mother Yasoda perform that made the Absolute Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna call her "mother" and suck her breasts?” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.8.46)]

What pious activities has Nanda Baba performed? How fortunate is Mother Yasoda! Krsna who is the Supreme Lord, drank milk from the breast of Mother Yasoda. Someone may want to serve Krsna like her, and more than that: like the gopis.

Krsna told the gopis:

na paraye ’ham niravadya-samyujam

sva-sadhu-krtyam vibudhayusapi vah

ya mabhajan durjara-geha-srnkhalam

samvrscya tad vah pratiyatu sadhuna

[“I am not able to repay My debt for your spotless service, even within a lifetime of Brahma. Your connection with Me is beyond reproach. You have worshiped Me, cutting off all domestic ties, which are difficult to break. Therefore please let your own glorious deeds be your compensation.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10.32.22)]

Krsna considered, “I cannot repay the gopis, because they have left everything for Me. They have left their husbands and children, their wealth, and their interest in their body and their ornaments. They have left everything for Me.”

He told them, “I cannot leave anyone in the way you have left everyone for Me. I cannot repay you. You can only be paid by your own good qualities.”

Hearing this, the gopis replied, “O Krsna, You have accepted that You are indebted to us gopis. By telling us this, You have won and we are defeated.” (The gopis were trying to make Sri Krsna admit that He had done wrong by disappearing. Whereas Sri Krsna had deliberately introduced this ‘defect’ into his behavior just so that he would have to submit Himself before the gopis and apologize. However, the gopis realized that of the two moods, theirs to find Him guilty, and His to defer before the greatness of their love, Sri Krsna’s mood was sweeter and more loving. So the gopis were themselves defeated by Sri Krsna’s accepting defeat. This is the astonishing way of rasika-sekhara Sri Krsna. –ed)

The following verse reveals an even higher mood of devotion to Krsna:

anayaradhito nunam

bhagavan harir isvarah

yan no vihaya govindah

prito yam anayad rahah

[“Certainly this particular gopi has perfectly worshiped the all-powerful Personality of Godhead.(Isvara). Therefore, Govinda was so pleased with Her that He abandoned the rest of us and brought Her to a secluded place.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10.30.28)]

Srimati Radhika is the supreme beloved of Sri Krsna, as exemplified by the fact that He left all the gopis during the Rasa-dance and went away with Her. Surely She has pleased the Supreme Lord, by whose mercy Krsna is very happy with Her.

If anyone claims to have greed for service to Srimati Radhika or service like the other Vrajavasis, there should be some symptoms visible If one actually sees or meets Srimati Radhika, he cannot remain in this world. Narada [at the stage of bhava-bhakti] saw only a glimpse of his Lord Narayana, and then the Lord disappeared and told him, “I never give my audience to those who are not pure.” So how is it possible that a conditioned soul will see Radhika?”

We should know all these truths.

sastroktaya prabalaya tat-tan-maryadayanvita

vaidhi bhaktiriyam kaiscin maryada-marga ucyate

[“Devotional service governed by the rules and regulations of the scriptures is also called maryada-marga, or the reverential path of devotion, the path of serving the Lord in opulence, by different scholars (such as Vallabhacarya).” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Purva-vibhaga 2.269)]

Srila Vallabhacarya has explained about devotional etiquette and regulations (maryada). Srimad-Bhagavatam gives us this instruction: sravanam (hearing), kirtanam (chanting), smaranam (remembering), pada-sevanam (serving the lotus feet), arcanam (worshipping), vandanam (praying), dasyam (becoming a servant), sakhyam (becoming a friend), atma-nivedanam (surrendering everything), constitute the nine limbs of vaidhi-bhakti.

There are also five limbs of bhakti that are most important: sadhu-sanga (association with devotees), bhagavata-sravana (hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam), mathura-vasa (living in Mathura), nama-kirtana (chanting the holy name) and sri-murtira sraddhaya sevana (worshipping the deity with faith and veneration).

If we follow these without offense, we will attain prema-bhakti (pure transcendental love of Sri Krsna) very soon.

Bhava-bhakti is very high, as we can see by its symptoms:

ksantir avyartha-kalatvam

viraktir mana-sunyata

asa-bandhah samutkantha

nama-gane sada rucih

asaktis tad-gunakhyane

pritis tad-vasati-sthale

ity adayo 'nubhavah syur

jata-bhavankure jane

[“When the seed of ecstatic emotion for Krsna fructifies, the following nine symptoms manifest in one's behavior: forgiveness, concern that time should not be wasted, detachment, absence of false prestige, hope, eagerness, a taste for chanting the holy name of the Lord, attachment to descriptions of the transcendental qualities of the Lord, and affection for those places where the Lord resides-that is, a temple or a holy place like Vrndavana. These are all called anubhava, subordinate signs of ecstatic emotion. They are visible in a person in whose heart the seed of love of God has begun to fructify.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.3.25-26)]

Simply telling others, “I have greed,” will not do. If one says, “I don’t want to do any vaidhi-bhakti. There is no need to follow vaidhi-bhakti,” this is against sastra.

sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate

[“Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, Puranas, Narada-pancaratra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101)]

Those who don’t follow the rules and regulations of bhakti are completely independent and whimsical. They don’t want to follow. They don’t want to accept any inconveniences or suffering in the execution of vaidhi-bhakti. They want to jump at once to the top of the tree of bhakti. They want only Radha-dasyam and manjari-bhava (direct, personal service to Srimati Radhika in the secluded grove).

Srila Rupa Gosvami has stated (from the srutis and smrti-sastras) that there are 64 limbs of bhakti, and the first ten limbs are especially important. First comes Gurupadasraya. One must first accept harinama-initiation, and then diksa-mantra initiation. One must learn how to do bhakti, and learn what is bhakti, what is not bhakti, what is sakama-bhakti (the performance of bhakti for the purpose of satisfying material desires), niskama-bhakti (the performance of bhakti without desires for material results), nirguna-bhakti (devotion that is unaffected by the qualities of material nature), uttama-bhakti (pure devotional service), aropa-siddha bhakti (activities which are not pure bhakti, but are designated as bhakti due to their being offered to the Supreme Lord), sanga-siddha bhakti (endeavors that are associated with, or favorable to the development of bhakti but are not of themselves purely composed of bhakti), svarupa-siddha bhakti (endeavors that are purely constituted of devotional service)

[Shakti-Fan 0]

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Be Very Careful About This (Continued)

Germany: July 8 2007

Aspiring devotees should know all these truths; otherwise they will perform bhakti which is actually not bhakti. Those who don’t want to follow these principles are stupid and nonsense. Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja used these words; I am simply repeating his words.

So be very careful.

yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau.

tasyaite kathita hy arthah prakasante mahatmanah

[“Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed.” (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23)]

You wish to do bhakti to Krsna, but you must do bhakti to your Gurudeva first. You should think that Srila Gurudeva is a manifestation of Krsna Himself. Krsna is visaya-bhagavan (the supreme object and enjoyer of service) and Srila Gurudeva is asraya-bhagavan (the reservoir and provider of service to God).

saksad dharitvena samasta-sastrair

uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih

kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya

vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

[“The spiritual master acting on the Supreme Lord’s behalf must be worshiped as being as good as the Supreme Lord, for he is the Lord’s most confidential servant in broadcasting the Lord’s message for the benefit of the conditioned souls involved in the material world.” (Sri Gurvastakam 7)]

It is therefore stated:

yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado

yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto ’pi

dhyayan stuvams tasya yasas tri-sandhyam

vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

[“By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement. Therefore, I should always remember and praise the spiritual master. At least three times a day I should offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of my spiritual master.” (Sri Gurvastakam 8)]

These bogus persons do not want to serve Srila Gurudeva. How will these foolish persons attain raganuga-bhakti? Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu followed all the limbs of vaidhi-bhakti that are written about in Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. He told Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami:

sthira haiya ghare yao, na hao vatula

krame krame paya loka bhava-sindhu-kula

[“Be patient and return home. Don't be a crazy fellow. By and by you will be able to cross the ocean of material existence.” (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 16.237)]

antare nistha kara, bahye loka-vyavahara

acirat krsna tomaya karibe uddhara

[“Within your heart, you should keep yourself very faithful, but externally you may behave like an ordinary man. Thus Krsna will soon be very pleased and deliver you from the clutches of maya.” (Caitanya-caritamrta. Madhya 16.239)]

Srila Rupa Gosvami is Sri Rupa Manjari (in his form as a gopi), but outwardly he was following all the limbs of vaidhi-bhakti. If, by the mercy of one’s qualified Guru, one has actual greed in his heart – if he is internally serving Krsna on the path of raganuga in his siddha-deha (his original, self-realized position) - he must be at the stage of rati. Real greed will manifest at that stage. Before this, a person has no real greed. In the name of greed, males will be attracted to ladies and the ladies will be attracted to men. This is very dangerous, for they will go to hell. They will not go to the transcendental world to be manjaris.

You may have heard the verse:

bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad

isad apetasya viparyayo ’smrtih

tan-mayayato budha abhajet tam

bhaktyaikayesam guru-devatatma

[“Fear arises when a living entity misidentifies himself as the material body because of absorption in the external, illusory energy of the Lord. When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is affected by the potency of illusion, called maya. Therefore, an intelligent person should engage unflinchingly in the unalloyed devotional service of the Lord, under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master, whom he should accept as his worshipable deity and as his very life and soul.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.37)]

Sri Kavi – one of the nine Yogendras in conversation with Nimi Maharaja – is uttering the word ‘guru-devatatma’. We have come to this world because we have forgotten Krsna, and therefore we are always suffering. If one wants to cross over all the miseries of material existence, he must first serve Srila Gurudeva, who is served through his teachings. First serve Guru and then Krsna. This principle is also true regarding the performance of arcana, Deity worship – one first worships Guru, and then Krsna.

Without serving Guru, we cannot enter into the realm of bhakti. Do not be desperate (impatient to jump ahead) like the persons who say that they have seen Srimati Radhika. These are bogus persons. If one actually sees the transcendental form of Krsna, he will leave his body at once and go to Vrndavana, Vraja-mandala, in his transcendental siddha-deha (spiritually perfected) body, and he will serve Krsna there.

Always be careful in this regard. The people who deny the importance of observing vaidhi-bhakti do not want to follow. You must first follow vaidhi-bhakti. If you read Sri Caitanya-caritamrta under the guidance of a rasika vaisnava, your vaidhi-bhakti will automatically turn into raganuga-bhakti. This is the process.

Gaura-premanande!

[*ENDNOTE 1:

Raganuga-bhakti:

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 22.149: “The original inhabitants of Vrndavana are attached to Krsna spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called ragatmika bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vrndavana, his devotional service is called raganuga bhakti.”

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 22.152: “Thus devotional service which consists of raga is called ragatmika, spontaneous loving service. If a devotee covets such a position, he is considered to be most fortunate.”

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 22.153: “If one follows in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrndavana out of such transcendental covetousness, he does not care for the injunctions or reasonings of sastra. That is the way of spontaneous love.”

“Raga is the unquenchable loving thirst (prema-mayi trsna) for the object of one’s affection, which gives rise to spontaneous and intense absorption (svarasiki paramavistata) in that object. Ragamayi bhakti is the performance of seva, such as stringing garlands, with such intense raga.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.272)

“Raga is the absolute (parama) and undivided (svarasiki) absorption (avistata) in one’s own particular object of worship. When devotion to Krsna comes to the stage of ragamayi, it is called ragatmika-bhakti. In summary, it can be said that intense hankering for Krsna that is saturated with prema (prema-mayi) is called ragatmika-bhakti.

It is auspicious that a person in whose heart such raga has not arisen should strive to cultivate such bhakti by behaving according to vidhi (the rules and regulations of sastra). The principles at work in vaidhi-bhakti are fear, respect and reverence, whereas the only principle at work in ragatmika-bhakti is lobha, or greed, in relation to Sri Krsna’s lila.)”

In his Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture in Vrndavana on November 12, 1972, Srila Prabhupada said: “So you have to uncover. You have to discover. That discovering process is devotional service. The more you are engaged in devotional service, the more your senses become pure or uncovered. And when they are completely uncovered, without any designation, then you are capable to serve Krsna.

“This is apprenticeship. Vaidhi-bhakti, that is apprenticeship. Real bhakti, para-bhakti, that is raganuga-bhakti. This raganuga-bhakti, we have to come to it after surpassing the vaidhi-bhakti. In the material world, if we do not try to make further and further progress in devotional service, if we are simply sticking to the sastric regulation process and do not try to go beyond that… sastric process is regulation. That is required. Without sastric process you cannot go to that platform. But if we stick to the sastric process only and do not try to improve ourselves … The sastric process is kanistha-adhikari, lowest stage of devotinal service.”]

[*ENDNOTE 2:

Rasika means ‘one who is expert in relishing rasa.’ Who is really rasika?

An excerpt from ‘Gaudiya Vaisnavism versus Sahajiyaism, Part 1:

“In his book Jaiva-dharma, for advanced devotees, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has described all the principles and practices of bhakti, up to the attainment of one’s siddha-deha. There he explained eleven items of perfection (siddha-deha): siddha-sambandha, siddha-vayasa, siddha-nama, siddha-rupa, siddha-yutha, siddha-vesa, siddha-vasa, seva, parakasthasvasa and palya-dasi-bhava. He discusses this, however, in the next to the last chapter - not in the beginning.

“One of the principle personalities in Jaiva-dharma is Sri Raghunatha dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Vijaya-kumara. Sri Babaji taught these principles to Vijaya-kumara when his disciple was advanced in Krsna-consciousness and free from all anarthas and material desires. Vijaya-kumara had been chanting and remembering Krsna twenty-four hours a day on the shore of the ocean of Jagannatha Puri. In fact the ocean reminded him of Krsna, the ocean of rasa. Vijaya-kumara had understood and realized the meaning of bhava, anubhava, sattvika and vyabhicari. He also realized in what proportion they should be mixed with one’s sthayi-bhava (eternal mood of service to Krsna) to become bhakti-rasa. He had become truly humble - trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna, amanina manadena, and he was on the stage of bhavavasta (bhava-bhakti).

“Menaka and other Apsaras, celestial goddesses, who are more beautiful than any eartly woman, cannot disturb the Krsna consciousness of a person like Srila Haridasa Thakura. Yet, even Srila Haridasa Thakura himself was not engaged in the advanced practices of devotees in the Gosvami line like Vijay-kumara. We have never seen or heard in any scripture that he was engaged like this. Only devotees like Srila Rupa, Srila Sanatana and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvamis were following all of these principles. It is by following them that our entire line of disciplic succession has continued in the same way down to the present day.

“A devotee must become mature in bhakti before he can fully comprehend our disciplic acaryas. He must come to the stage of sraddha, then sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, anartha nivrtti, nistha, ruci, and asakti. At the stage of bhava when there is no scent of desire for sense gratification, when he is quite free from all material thoughts and habits, his siddha-deha will automatically manifest.”

[*ENDNOTE 3:

What is real siddha-deha?

An excerpt from ‘Gaudiya Vaisnavism versus Sahajiyaism, Part 1:

The Eight Stages of Devotional Service

“When will siddha-deha come? Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained this in his book Bhajana-rahasya. There he discusses Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s Siksastakam which expresses the eight stages of maturity in devotional service. He writes that first one will have to do bhajana of:

ceto-darpana-marjanam:

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam

sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam

[“Let there be supreme victory for the chanting of the holy name of Sri Krsna alone, which cleanses the mirror of the heart and completely extinguishes the blazing forest fire of material existence. Sri-krsna-sankirtana diffuses the soothing moon rays of bhava which causes the white lotus of good fortune for the jivas to bloom. The holy name is the life and soul of transcendental knowledge, which is here compared to a wife. It continuously expands the ocean of transcendental bliss, enabling one to taste complete nectar at every step. The holy name of Sri Krsna thoroughly cleanses and cools the self, one’s nature and determination, as well as the body, both internal and external.” (Sri Siksastakam)

“This sloka of Sri Siksastakam is actually fully realized after the stage of asakti.

“The next sloka is namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis:

namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah

[“O Bhagavan! Your holy name bestows all auspiciousness upon the living entities. Therefore, for the benefit of the jivas, You eternally manifest Your innumerable names, such as Rama, Narayana, Krsna, Mukunda, Madhava, Govinda, Damodara, and so on. You have invested those names with all the potencies of Your respective personal forms. Out of causeless mercy, You have not even imposed any restrictions on the chanting and remembrance of such names as is the case with sandhya-vandana, which must be chanted only at specified times of the day. In other words, at any time of the day or night, the holy name can be chanted and remembered.This is the provision You have made. O Lord! This is Your causeless mercy upon the living entities. Nonetheless, I am so unfortunate due to committing offenses that I have not awoken any attachment for Your holy name, which is so easily accessible and bestows all good fortune.” (Sri Siksastaka, 2)]

“This sloka represents the stages of sadhu-sanga and anartha-nivrtti - that is, removal of anarthas by association with devotees. At present our chanting of Krsna’s name is not pure. It may sometimes be namabhasa or namaparadha. Pure nama will appear on our tongue when we become pure ourselves. At that time the quality of trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna will manifest automatically:

trnad api sunicena

taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadena

kirtaniyah sada harih

[“Thinking oneself to be even lower and more worthless than insignificant grass which has been trampled beneath everyone’s feet, being more tolerant than a tree, being prideless, and offering respect to all others according to their respective positions, one should continuously chant the holy name of Sri Hari.” (Sri Siksastaka, 3)]

“This sloka represents nistha, firm faith, when one’s chanting will not be just for ‘show’.

The next stage is to realize na dhanam na janam na sundarim:

na dhanam na janam na sundarim

kavitam va jagad-isa kamaye

mama janmani janmanisvare

bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi

[“O Jagadisa! I do not desire wealth, followers such as wife, sons, friends and relatives, or mundane knowledge expressed in poetic language. My only desire, O Pranesvara, is that birth after birth I may have ahaituki-bhakti unto Your lotus feet.” (Sri Siksastaka, 4)]

“This sloka represents ruci, a taste for bhajana.

“When we properly practice in good association, everything will develop automatically. We will then realize the fifth sloka:

ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram

patitam mam visame bhavambudhau

krpaya tava pada-pankaja-

sthita-dhuli-sadrsam vicintaya

[“O Nanda-nandana! Please be merciful upon me, your eternal servant, fallen in the dreadful ocean of material existence as a result of my fruitive actions. Please consider me as a particle of dust affixed to Your lotus feet and accept me forever as your purchased servant.” (Sri Siksastaka, 5)]

“It is at this stage that one’s siddha-deha begins to manifest. This sloka represents asakti, or attachment to Krsna.

“After the stage of asakti, when tears flow continuously, one feels purva-raga, the intense mood of separation experienced before meeting Krsna. As the devotee chants, he will think, “O Krsna, I cannot live without You, O Srimati Radhika, I cannot live without You. When will You give me your darsana?” When he is weeping twenty-four hours daily, rolling on the earth, then nayanam galad-asru-dharaya:

nayanam galad-asru-dharaya

vadanam gadgada-ruddhaya gira

pulakair nicitam vapuh kada,

tava nama-grahane bhavisyati

[“O Prabhu! When will my eyes be filled with a stream of tears? When will my voice choke up? And when will the hairs of my body stand erect in ecstacy as I chant Your holy name.” (Sri Siksastaka, 6)]

“This sloka represents the stage of bhava - at which time the siddha-deha manifests automatically. From where does the siddha-deha come? It is in our svarupa, our original spiritual form. Our siddha-deha does not come from anywhere outside ourselves. In our svarupa everything is perfect. To realize this, we simply require a connection with svarupa-sakti. When that connection is made, siddha-deha automatically manifests and all spiritual sentiments of love appear in our heart.”

[*ENDNOTE 4 – excerpt form Jaiva-dharma, chapter 21:

“When materialistic people are in contact with the objects of the senses, they naturally become deeply attached to an endless variety of material sense enjoyment. This intense attachment in the heart is called visaya-raga. When they glance upon some beautiful object, the eyes become restless, and in the heart, there is an attraction (ranjakata) towards the object of beauty and attachment (raga) to it. Raga-bhakti is the state in which Krsna becomes the sole object of raga.

Srila Rupa Gosvami has defined the word raga in the following way:

iste svarasiki ragah paramavistata bhavet

tan-mayi ya bhaved bhaktih satra ragatmikodita

[“Raga is the unquenchable loving thirst (prema-mayi trsna) for the object of one’s affection, which gives rise to spontaneous and intense absorption (svarasiki paramavistata) in that object. Ragamayi bhakti is the performance of seva, such as stringing garlands, with such intense raga.” (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.272)]

“Raga is the absolute (parama) and undivided (svarasiki) absorption (avistata) in one’s own particular object of worship. When devotion to Krsna comes to the stage of ragamayi, it is called ragatmika-bhakti. In summary, it can be said that intense hankering for Krsna that is saturated with prema (prema-mayi) is called ragatmika-bhakti.

It is auspicious that a person in whose heart such raga has not arisen should strive to cultivate such bhakti by behaving according to vidhi (the rules and regulations of sastra). The principles at work in vaidhi-bhakti are fear, respect and reverence, whereas the only principle at work in ragatmika-bhakti is lobha, or greed, in relation to Sri Krsna’s lila.

[theist 1]

A lot to digest. Thank you Shakti Fan. I am still curious to why devotees who have heard this and are experienced still turn to sahjiyaism. What is the pyschology involved?

[suchandra 1]

 

A lot to digest. Thank you Shakti Fan. I am still curious to why devotees who have heard this and are experienced still turn to sahjiyaism. What is the pyschology involved?

Psychology involved could be that in order to turn a failure, something negative, into something positive you have to give it another name.

When having failed to become celibate they don't say, I have failed, they say, I worship Krishna where celibacy is not demanded at Sahajiyā Buddhism or the Sahajayana. They surely know that sexuality is seen as the ultimate binding factor in the bodily identification of the ātma, conditioning one to the illusory dualities of the material world, samsara. But because they can't break free, resigned, they look for a situation where this anartha is accepted.

Unfortunately the wrong decision and simply prolonging the stay in this material world.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I have heard that sahajiyas put forward the idea that when ones faith becomes strong they can understand that Krsna can enjoy with women through their own material senses.

 

So they come to see themselves as a transparent medium between Krsna and othe living entities in female form through "rasa" dance and sex play. Of course they say this is dovetailed because Krsna enjoys throught them

 

 

The term "sahajiya" usually refers to relatively recent (17th century) religious movement which has it's roots in Tantric tradition as well as in ancient sahaja-yoga, and which seeks to employ sexuality in achieving the Divine. The philosophy behind it is far more complex then most devotees realize or care to admit.

 

With time, in the Sarasvata parivar this term came to be used to denote ANY practice or philosophy that Sarasvatas deemed to be "too cheap".

[theist 1]

 

Psychology involved could be that in order to turn a failure, something negative, into something positive you have to give it another name.

When having failed to become celibate they don't say, I have failed, they say, I worship Krishna where celibacy is not demanded at Sahajiyā Buddhism or the Sahajayana. They surely know that sexuality is seen as the ultimate binding factor in the bodily identification of the ātma, conditioning one to the illusory dualities of the material world, samsara. But because they can't break free, resigned, they look for a situation where this anartha is accepted.

Unfortunately the wrong decision and simply prolonging the stay in this material world.

 

I think you have nailed it suchandra. I feel strongly you have because some years back I felt this exact urge within myself. I have never been able to get a solid footing in vaidhi-bhakti. I found this extremely frustrating. And it was at this point that I started to develop an interest in what I thought of as raganuga-bhakti. Imitation raganuga bhakti is just one step away from imitation rasa-lila.

 

Of course I was no where near genuine raganuga, it was simply that I could not admit to myself my actual position as one of operating on a platform below genuine vaidhi-bhakti so I needed an alternative just as you described. This is willfull self deception.

 

Willfull self deception is actally a major component of our material conditioning. We do it in one form or another all the time.

 

Wanting to be God and then we start realizing we can never measure up can bring much physchological trauma along with it.

 

This is what I was looking for. Narayana Maharaja above has given strong warning about this mentality, as have others, and it is advice well worth taking seriously.

 

One must *"stalk the mind" relentlessly. This means honest introspection. The mind is always whinning and demanding that we give it the benefit of the doubt. This is a trick. We need to give others the benefit of the doubt but when it comes to our own minds if their is doubt we should always assume the lower position. This type of doubt is Supersoul trying to save us from serious missteps.

 

* Casteneda

[suchandra 1]

 

I have never been able to get a solid footing in vaidhi-bhakti. I found this extremely frustrating. And it was at this point that I started to develop an interest in what I thought of as raganuga-bhakti.

 

When performing devotional service rightly the spiritual happiness within should be of such kind that no separate endeavour is required to become freed from material attachment. However, what is often the case that someone thinks he hasn't fully experienced certain material pleasures and therefore can't give it up. He might suppress for some time but at one point he's again overcome. When Krishna sees a devotee has the desire to become detached at one point He'll make one detached. That things can take some time we see within ISKCON. The actual problem I see, when serving Krishna under bogus leadership. Then things get lots more difficult.

 

"Tan manye adhītam uttamam. One who is engaged in these nine different processes of devotional service… The first beginning is śravaṇam, hearing. So under the direction of the spiritual master and the śāstras, immediately he is liberated person. He doesn’t require to make separate endeavor for becoming liberated. Because immediately he engages himself in devotional… Māṁ ca yo ’vyabhicāreṇa [Bg. 14.26]. Avyabhicāreṇa, unfailing. Strictly. Dṛḍha- vrata. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ yatantaś ca dṛḍha-vratāḥ [Bg. 9.14]. Dṛḍha-vrata, firm conviction that “I am engaged in Kṛṣṇa’s service. I am now free from all material contamination.” Dṛḍha-vrata."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.25.5-6

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, November 5, 1974

[theist 1]

Good point on supression of unfulled desires. Supression,repression never works. The desires always resurface in some form. Even a philosphical understanding cannot protect us these desires are so strong. Without a higher taste having been achieved we are always walking on thin ice.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Good point on supression of unfulled desires. Supression,repression never works. The desires always resurface in some form. Even a philosphical understanding cannot protect us these desires are so strong. Without a higher taste having been achieved we are always walking on thin ice.

 

Remember the principle of "dovetailing" material desires and tendencies with the service for Krsna Srila Prabhupada was talking about? This is what the sahajiyas are saying as well: dovetailing the sexuality with remembering Krsna.

 

One could ask a question: What is more artificial? A sannyasi who constantly struggles with his sexuality, living a bitter life of pretentious denial, or someone who sees in his sex life the re-enactment of the union between God and Goddess, the purusha and prakriti. Not all Vaishnava sahajiyas were taking their tradition as a license for unlimited sense gratification - some were actually very sincere practicioners of bhakti.

It is about what you remember on your deathbed.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Remember the principle of "dovetailing" material desires and tendencies with the service for Krsna Srila Prabhupada was talking about? This is what the sahajiyas are saying as well: dovetailing the sexuality with remembering Krsna.

 

One could ask a question: What is more artificial? A sannyasi who constantly struggles with his sexuality, living a bitter life of pretentious denial, or someone who sees in his sex life the re-enactment of the union between God and Goddess, the purusha and prakriti. Not all Vaishnava sahajiyas were taking their tradition as a license for unlimited sense gratification - some were actually very sincere practicioners of bhakti.

It is about what you remember on your deathbed.

Good points, Kula!

 

Going back to the opening of this thread:

 

My question is why would Krsna want to enjoy a bag of flesh, blood and bones? This type of thinking portrays Krsna as a mundane womanizerlust after meat instead of the unlimited transcendental lover.

Some people see the body of Sri Guru as being a "bag of flesh, blood and bones". As Srila Prabhupada pointed out in a morning walk quoted elsewhere on this forum, at what point does the flower growing on the tree become spiritualized? Is it that it was mundane when it was growing on the tree, but it suddenly becomes spiritual when we offer it to the Deity? No, he says (if my memory serves), it is our *vision* of it which has changed.

 

On the ultimate level, this is all the energy of the Lord. Ultimately, *everything* is spiritual, though, for the sake of sadhana, we must distinguish between that which is favorable and that which is not favorable.

 

I keep thinking about Kama Gayatri...

[theist 1]

 

Remember the principle of "dovetailing" material desires and tendencies with the service for Krsna Srila Prabhupada was talking about? This is what the sahajiyas are saying as well: dovetailing the sexuality with remembering Krsna.

 

One could ask a question: What is more artificial? A sannyasi who constantly struggles with his sexuality, living a bitter life of pretentious denial, or someone who sees in his sex life the re-enactment of the union between God and Goddess, the purusha and prakriti. Not all Vaishnava sahajiyas were taking their tradition as a license for unlimited sense gratification - some were actually very sincere practicioners of bhakti.

It is about what you remember on your deathbed.

 

People are sincerely wrong also. Also I am talking about present day and not what someone may or may not have done in the 17th century.

 

It is not a question of being a repressed sannyasi or a sahajiya The answer to your puzzle above is the householder ashram.

 

Dovetailing your senses in God's service is not a whimisical endeavor. Krsna says He is that sex life that is not contray to religious principles. It is not that you need to see yourself as representing Krsna and your females lovers as the Gopis.

 

One can see the sahajiya mentality creeping in.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

A thief thinks everyone else is a thief.

[theist 1]

Therefore our business is to follow the words of Krishna, not to imitate Him. That is suicidal. We shall follow the instruction of Krishna as He is giving in the Bhagavad-gita, but if we become so rascal to imitate His rasa-lila, then we'll go to hell. But the Mayavadis, they sometimes do that. That... In the Bhagavata it is forbidden, that "Imitation of this..." Idam ca vishnoh. What is that verse, vraja..., that...? That "These pastimes of Lord Krishna, who is Vishnu, with the gopis, they should not be..., not only they should be imitated, they should not be thought even within the mind, that 'We can also do like that.' " It is forbidden. SB 1.8 lecture

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

There's a difference between imitating the Lord's Rasa Lila and seeing that all enjoyment is coming from the Lord and is ultimately *for* the Lord.

 

Wasn't it *you* theist, on another thread, who was in essence calling Srila Prabhupada's body a "bag of bones"?

[Beggar 0]

 

 

Do the Funky Sahajiya

 

You may have heard of THE FUNKY SAHAJIYA - the craziest dance ever. Now it is possible for you to learn this dance in the privacy of your own home. With these careful instructions, you should be able to master this fine art within days and acheive Krishna prema.

 

Look like you in bhava and relax, concentrating on the thumping beat of the Mrdanga drum. Tapping toes or nodding the head helps. Beginners are advised to count from 1 to 4. Do not move lips, chant silently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Funny. My birth father (not my step-father) is a self-proclaimed sahajiya.

 

I guess I'm a son of a sahajiya. I'm still working on achieving sahajiya status, what to speak of true Krishna Bhakti.

[Vedesu 0]

That's probably the coolest method, Beggar. But don't forget the Scat. Here's one called Rubber Biscuit made famous by a couple of jive turkeys from Chicago:

 

 

Cow cow hoo-oo

cow cow wanna dib-a-doo

chick'n hon-a-chick-a-chick hole-a-hubba

hell fried chuck-a-lucka wanna jubba

hi-low 'n-ay wanna dubba hubba

day down sum wanna jigga-wah

dell rown ay wanna lubba hubba

mull an a mound chicka lubba hubba

fay down ah wanna dip-a-zip-a-dip-a

 

Once you've mastered the "Scat", you be jivin'. Folks will think you're speaking in tongues, moved by the spirit.

 

[Beggar 0]

 

Funny. My birth father (not my step-father) is a self-proclaimed sahajiya.

 

I guess I'm a son of a sahajiya. I'm still working on achieving sahajiya status, what to speak of true Krishna Bhakti.

 

As the son of a son of a sahajiya

F C G

I went out on the Ganges for adventure

C G

Expanding the view of the captain and crew

D G

Like a man just released from indenture

 

G

As a dreamer of dreams and a mental speculating man

F C G

I have chalked up many a mile

C G

Read dozens of books about rasika heroes and heroines

D G

And I learned much from both of their styles

 

Chorus:

F C

Son of a son, son of a son

G

Son of a son of a sahajiya

F C

Son of a gun, smoked the last ton

C

One step ahead of the jailer

 

 

Now away in the near future

Southeast of disorder

You can shake the hand of the Pan wala man

As he greets you at the Bangala boarder

 

And the brahmacarini she hails from Sri Lanka

Island of the spices

Salt for your subji and cinnamon sweet

And the baba rum dum is for all your good vices

 

F C

Haul the sheet in as we ride on the wind

G

That our forefathers harnessed before us

F C

Hear the bells ring as the tide ringing chants

G

It's a son of a gun of a chorus

 

 

Where it all ends I can't fathom my friends

If I knew I might toss out my anchor

So I'll cruise along the Ganga always searching for sahajiya songs

Not a barrister a thief or a banker

 

But the son of a son, son of a son

Son of a son of a sahajiya

Son of a gun, smoke the last ton

One step ahead of the jailer

I'm just a son of a son, son of a son

Son of a son of a sahayiya

 

F C

The Ganges water is in my veins, my Sahajiya tradition remains

G

I just wish I could afford a Santa Cruz trailer

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

As the son of a son of a sahajiya...

The Ganges water is in my veins, my Sahajiya tradition remains

 

O yee of little faith!!!!!!!!!!!

[theist 1]

 

There's a difference between imitating the Lord's Rasa Lila and seeing that all enjoyment is coming from the Lord and is ultimately *for* the Lord.

 

Already dealt with in a previous post.

 

 

Wasn't it *you* theist, on another thread, who was in essence calling Srila Prabhupada's body a "bag of bones"?

 

No it was Guruvani although I agree. It is a bag of bones but because it is dovetailed properly to Krsna it is also transcendental energy.

 

I would ask you what ridiculous point you are trying to make with that comment but in truth I am really not interested in your viewpoint.

 

This is the type of thing one takes to his guru for clarification. Getting knowledge is more important than getting a thread.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

It is not that you need to see yourself as representing Krsna and your females lovers as the Gopis.

 

One can see the sahajiya mentality creeping in.

 

This is a very common misconception about the sahajiya practices. Yes some people engage in stuff like that, but these are extreme and rare cases. Should Prabhupada's sannyasi disciples be judged by the likes of Kirtanananda, Bhavananda or Hansadutta? Some of the stuff Prabhupada disciples did would put to shame even the worst sahajiyas.

 

The mentality of hypocrisy is perhaps worse then being a sahajiya.

 

I have no inclination towards ANY sahajiya lines but the simplistic depictions of sahajiya philosophy and practices popular among the devotees really bother me.

[suchandra 1]

 

O yee of little faith!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Tuesday, January 16, 1968 Los Angeles, Calif.

 

Dear Guru das & Yamuna devi,

 

Be good boy and girl and always chant the HARE KRISHNA mantra and you will be so pleased with the result.

 

Yamuna you are little better than Janaki but don't get puffed up and be good to those a little less fortunate. Guru das your work is so nice and you are a very important member of our society.

 

You and your wife work so well there shall never be any problems.

 

Your ever well wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[theist 1]

 

This is a very common misconception about the sahajiya practices. Yes some people engage in stuff like that, but these are extreme and rare cases. Should Prabhupada's sannyasi disciples be judged by the likes of Kirtanananda, Bhavananda or Hansadutta? Some of the stuff Prabhupada disciples did would put to shame even the worst sahajiyas.

 

The mentality of hypocrisy is perhaps worse then being a sahajiya.

 

I have no inclination towards ANY sahajiya lines but the simplistic depictions of sahajiya philosophy and practices popular among the devotees really bother me.

I think you are being strangely defensive. No one has said sahajiyas are the scum of the earth and worse then the baby rapers. I wonder why you even bring that up. I opened this thread to explore the pyschology of of why someone would turn to this mentality. As I mentioned to you previously i was only talking about present day practices and not those of any group in the 17th century and yet you continue to voice your displeaseure over the simplistic depictions of their old practices. Maybe you wouldn't be so bothered if you actually tracked with the real subject of this thread. Suchandra got it right away and gave an excellent answer.

 

I believe it would be benefical for all devotees to pay special heed to what he said in post #5 so as not to get mislead by their own minds.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

As I mentioned to you previously i was only talking about present day practices and not those of any group in the 17th century and yet you continue to voice your displeaseure over the simplistic depictions of their old practices. Maybe you wouldn't be so bothered if you actually tracked with the real subject of this thread. Suchandra got it right away and gave an excellent answer.

 

I believe it would be benefical for all devotees to pay special heed to what he said in post #5 so as not to get mislead by their own minds.

 

I am primarily talking about modern day Vaishnava sahajiyas, or those encountered in the last 100 years. Seems to me you assume that sahajiyas of the 17th century were "less degraded" than sahajiyas of today. I am not sure that is the case. The sahajiyas were always a very diverse bunch, and the excesses of a small fraction of these people coloured the entire group black. Call it "religious racism" if you like, but of all people you should be more sensitive to this situation.

 

My point in this discussion is that devotees have a very simplistic understanding of the issue and your posts confirm that. If you want to hear only what you like, why bother opening a topic to discussion? The sahajiya current is not at all simply a black and white issue. Perhaps you should study it more in depth.

 

You and many other Iskcon devotees think that dovetailing ill gotten money in the service of Krsna is permissible, but dovetailing consensual sex with Krsna lila smaranam is not? That is at least debatable.

 

As to being "strangely defensive", you are first insinuating that "One can see the sahajiya mentality creeping in" in relation to my post, and now you call my response "strangely defensive" - that is some chutzpah, brother theist... or maybe you are just being "mislead by your own mind"?