The close of the living spiritual movement?

[Guruvani 0]

 

"The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher."

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur

 

So, if Srila Saraswati Thakur felt this way then why did he recommend to his disciples to form a GBC and conduct the mission that way?

This all seems very contradictory.

[suchandra 1]

 

So, if Srila Saraswati Thakur felt this way then why did he recommend to his disciples to form a GBC and conduct the mission that way?

This all seems very contradictory.

He seems to refer what happened to the Catholic Church - a former religious movement which mainly does one thing only, to be bussy in maintaining the institution and employing academic personnel with brilliant administrative skills. But why he considered that his disciples should do the same - could be when he saw the efficiency of the GBC within the Indian Railway system, he considered that this would solve the problem of a movement to become corrupted. He must have considered that a GBC system would solve all the problems of a spiritual movement, since his understanding was that the GBC should be elected. What Prabhupada once said is that the example of the Ramakrishna Mission was the decisive factor to also start a movement, don't know exactly where and when he said it.

[theist 1]

Oraganized religious establishments may be unattractive to the transcendentalists but they are a great help to the materialist in gaining some solid sukriti. Souls are still moving forward. For some souls simply bowing down before the Lord offers as much advancement as more experienced souls doing active service.

 

And there is always the possibility that a real saint may come forth often on the periphery of such an organization like St. Francis of Assisi.

[cbrahma 0]

I love this quote. I don't see a contradiction if the GBC don't act like a Papal curia or a board of directors.

The function of the GBC if I'm not mistaken is to maintain standards - it is collegial not totalitarian.

The functional should be contrasted with the organizational. Centralization, top down hierarchical authority becomes ecclesiastical. That is ISKCON GBC. It's also what happened in the Math. And I've said it once and I'll say it again. Because it is politicallly expedient, diksa becomes emphasized over siksa. The GBC then become the conveyors of diksa and the diksa requirement, formal ecclesiastical obsession takes over.

[theist 1]

TRANSLATION SB 4.28.48.

O best of kings, please get up! Get up! Just see this world surrounded by water and infested with rogues and so-called kings. This world is very much afraid, and it is your duty to protect her.

 

PURPORT

Whenever an acarya comes, following the superior orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or His representative, he establishes the principles of religion, as enunciated in Bhagavad-gita. Religion means abiding by the orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Religious principles begin from the time one surrenders to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is the acarya's duty to spread a bona fide religious system and induce everyone to bow down before the Supreme Lord. One executes the religious principles by rendering devotional service, specifically the nine items like hearing, chanting and remembering. Unfortunately, when the acarya disappears, rogues and nondevotees take advantage and immediately begin to introduce unauthorized principles in the name of so-called svamis, yogis, philanthropists, welfare workers and so on. Actually, human life is meant for executing the orders of the Supreme Lord, and this is stated in Bhagavad-gita (9.34):

man-mana bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yaji mam namaskuru

mam evaishyasi yuktvaivam

atmanam mat-parayanah

"Engage your mind always in thinking of Me and become My devotee. Offer obeisances and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me."

The main business of human society is to think of the Supreme Personality of Godhead at all times, to become His devotees, to worship the Supreme Lord and to bow down before Him. The acarya, the authorized representative of the Supreme Lord, establishes these principles, but when he disappears, things once again become disordered. The perfect disciples of the acarya try to relieve the situation by sincerely following the instructions of the spiritual master.At the present moment practically the entire world is afraid of rogues and nondevotees; therefore this Krishna consciousness movement is started to save the world from irreligious principles. Everyone should cooperate with this movement in order to bring about actual peace and happiness in the world.

 

-----------

 

So the problem is identified by many but who will be the perfect disciple and relieve the situation by sincerely following the instructions of the spiritual master?

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

And there is always the possibility that a real saint may come forth often on the periphery of such an organization like St. Francis of Assisi.

 

Beyond being just a possibility, it is virtually assured, isn't it?

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada is pretty unequivocal in his statement--the transcendental tide cannot be held back.

 

 

The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances.

Doesn't Sri Krishna Himself say that, when a great need arises, He Himself will descend to reestablish religious principles?

[theist 1]

 

Beyond being just a possibility, it is virtually assured, isn't it?

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada is pretty unequivocal in his statement--the transcendental tide cannot be held back.

There you go. Stronger ....more faith.

[mahak 0]

So many sayings of the same purport, but we are expected to eventually become paramahamsa, meaning we have discernment and can take what is needed and reject what is not.

 

ISKCON, Catholic, or any other foundation may have inherant problems, but this does not stifle an honest person. This is why we have folks like Juan of guadoloupe, a catholic, always a catholic, being visitied by mary, who didnt bother to invite the church hierarchy. This is why Srila Prabhupada, a Gaudiya Math rank and file member, is inspired by Krsna to represent him directly, even outside the foundational boundaries.

 

This is why I was told, "ISKCON may very well go to hell, it is up to my disciple to not follow them there.".

 

Take the essence, leaqve the rest.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa