Fall theory is worse than Mayavada says Narasingha Maharaja

[Kulapavana 0]

 

No, desiring to leave Krsna doesnt requieres maya, free will is native to the soul. Maya can't touch vaikhunta

 

actually, the only truly free choice of direction is possible in brahmajyoti, because you have no experience of either side, thus you are not influenced, or biased in your decision.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Again as long as we are conditioned by the time factor the answer cannot be properly conceptualized. This is true of all transcendental topics but this one is impossible to take in even on an intellectual level without that freedom.

 

So, maybe we should just stop philosophical discussions and talk about the weather?

Maybe politics?

Jesus?

How about let's talk about the president of Iran and do some asura-katha?

 

Let's just stick to things we understand and give up these philosophical discussions about ISKCON fairytales and about falling from Goloka to become a worm in stool!

[Guruvani 0]

 

actually, the only truly free choice of direction is possible in brahmajyoti, because you have no experience of either side, thus you are not influenced, or biased in your decision.

And even then it is only the jivas in the mahat-tattva that even have access to the material energy Maya Devi.

 

The only jivas that really have access to maya and the vulnerability to illusion are the jivas that get manifested by the tatastha-shakti of Narayana within the range of the Mahat-tattva.

 

3/4 of the jivas in the brahmajyoti don't even have a clue that maya even exists.

Maya is only available to the 1/4 energy of jivas (Johns) who get exposure within the cloud of the maha-tattva.

[CCC 0]

 

Free will is only abused by the mentally deranged and ignorant.

Since the liberated souls are not mentally deranged or ignorant there is no possibility of choosing to leave the unlimted nectarean bliss of Goloka to become a worm in stool.

 

The even insinuate that liberated, perfected, self-realized souls at some point misuse their free will and choose to leave the loving service of Krishna is an asinine idea that completely contradicts everything that shastra says about the perfection of the liberated devotees in Goloka.

As you say you are a mentally deranged and ignorant, otherwise you should not be here in the material world, that is your theory, I can see that you love yourself a lot!.

[CCC 0]

 

NO! I never smashed my toe with the hammer and I still know it WILL cause me pain. It is called KNOWLEDGE, as opposed to IGNORANCE, or MAYA.

 

You dont have to EXPERIENCE something to KNOW it. That is a real knowledge.

Yes you have!, so it is not real knowledge is just something imaginary in a mental or intelectual plataform or word jugglery, not real realization. You cant know what i the flavour of an apple if you don't taste it before. In the spiritual world the jivas may know about the material world, but they don't know how it is!!

[Guruvani 0]

 

As you say you are a mentally deranged and ignorant, otherwise you should not be here in the material world, that is your theory, I can see that you love yourself a lot!.

 

This topic is not about me.

Don't change the subject.

Before you go to critcise then you must first put your whole life up for scrutiny to show that you are in the position to condescend upon others.

 

If you can prove you are faultless, then I will accept your criticism.

Otherwise, let's stick to the topic at hand and not get all up into each other's backside.

[CCC 0]

actually, the only truly free choice of direction is possible in brahmajyoti, because you have no experience of either side, thus you are not influenced, or biased in your decision.

No, that is not free choice, because the jiva is in ignorance in both sides, so the jiva have to choice something that he doesn´t know.

[CCC 0]

 

This topic is not about me.

Don't change the subject.

Before you go to critcise then you must first put your whole life up for scrutiny to show that you are in the position to condescend upon others.

 

If you can prove you are faultless, then I will accept your criticism.

Otherwise, let's stick to the topic at hand and not get all up into each other's backside.

by your theory all of us are mentally deranged and ignorant from the begining bacause wanted to come here, so if someone say a theory , well why not to use the theory first in his creator?

[Guruvani 0]

Free will of the jiva is actually an illusion.

We don't have freedom to accept or reject death.

Death comes whether we choose it or not.

The conditioned jiva does not have free will to choose old age, disease, birth or death.

We have no choice in those matters.

 

Really, the idea of the free will of the jiva is actually a fraud conception as the free will of the jiva is so irrelevant that it is negligible.

 

Free will?

Just another fairytale.

Krishna influences the jiva to fall into maya.

It is not really a choice.

 

Chapter 9: Answers by Citing the Lord's VersionBhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

 

The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy — by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord in being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā (15.15) also the same thing is confirmed; the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity, and all the living entity's consciousness and forgetfulness are influenced by the Lord.

 

Krishna is the supreme controller.

We have no free will really.

Krishna inspires the soul towards maya or towards devotional service according to his sweet will.

We are just puppets waiting for the Puppetmaster to decide what he wants to do with us.

 

The free will theory is a hoax.

Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God.

We didn't come to this material world except by the will of Krishna - The Supreme Controller.

We control NOTHING.

[CCC 0]

 

Free will of the jiva is actually an illusion.

We don't have freedom to accept or reject death.

Death comes whether we choose it or not.

The conditioned jiva does not have free will to choose old age, disease, birth or death.

We have no choice in those matters.

 

Really, the idea of the free will of the jiva is actually a fraud conception as the free will of the jiva is so irrelevant that it is negligible.

 

Free will?

Just another fairytale.

Krishna influences the jiva to fall into maya.

It is not really a choice.

 

Chapter 9: Answers by Citing the Lord's VersionBhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

 

 

Krishna is the supreme controller.

We have no free will really.

Krishna inspires the soul towards maya or towards devotional service according to his sweet will.

We are just puppets waiting for the Puppetmaster to decide what he wants to do with us.

 

The free will theory is a hoax.

Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God.

We didn't come to this material world except by the will of Krishna - The Supreme Controller.

We control NOTHING.

Let's start to blame Krsna for his "sweet" decision jay!

 

If that is his sweet decision, How will be his bitter decision, haha

[Guruvani 0]

 

Today's "utility" is often tomorrow's source of confusion and doubt.

 

Very profound.

And, yes, that is exactly what has happened as the result of "utility" preaching and the allowance for the fairytale to perpetuate amongst a class of devotees who kept showing Srila Prabhupada over and over with stupid questions that they were not capable of understanding what he was writing in his books.

As such, the fairytale was born.

Now, the fairytale has become a horror story of billions of pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka falling down to become worms in stool.

Such an idea is a philosophical nightmare.

 

It has thrown the movement into a quagmire of myth and fairytale that is effectively blocking the whole system and necessity of raganuga-bhakti.

 

The fairytale locks devotees into vaidhi-bhakti with the expectation that they can attain perfection without following the process of raganuga-bhakti.

 

The fall-from-goloka fairytale is a siddhantic nightmare for ISKCON that breeds offensive neophytes with no concept of raganuga-bhakti.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Let's start to blame Krsna for his "sweet" decision jay!

It is his blessing.

Otherwise we would never have attained his association and service from our position as spirit sparks in the brahmajyoti limited to jnana without any concept of bhakti.

Falling down into maya was the best thing that ever happened to a jiva in the brahmajyoti under the impression that he is supreme and fully satisfied with brahman realization.

 

Thanks to Krishna we fell into maya and got the chance to associate with his devotee and get the seed of bhakti.

[Guruvani 0]

I am sorry, but I have to correct my previous error that the original statements in this topic were by Narasingha Maharaja.

They were from his organization's website that is actually administrated by B.B Vishnu Maharaja and were his writings:

 

However, there is no doubt that this position is exactly reflective of the position of Narasingha Maharaja as well.

 

I know B.B Vishnu Maharaja.

Before he joined the movement he had just finished a masters degree in physics.

So, he is quite the intelligent gentleman that I knew well many years ago.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

That may be, but I've yet to get an answer to my question. It seem like such a simple one.

 

How is it useful in our spiritual life to think that we are nitya-siddha?

 

If it is *not* useful, then why are we bothering to contemplate this?

 

 

And, yes, that is exactly what has happened as the result of "utility" preaching and the allowance for the fairytale to perpetuate amongst a class of devotees who kept showing Srila Prabhupada over and over with stupid questions that they were not capable of understanding what he was writing in his books.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

How is it useful in our spiritual life to think that we are nitya-siddha?

 

You are asking the wrong person.

I am not the one saying I am nitya-siddha having a bad dream from Goloka.

 

I am nitya-baddha jiva who has been in this material condition of life ever since I emanated from Lord Vishnu as a spark of light emanates from the Sun.

 

At one time that spark was within the Sun God.

Then that spark came out and became part of the Sun planet.

Then that spark was propelled out from the Sun planet and became a separated spark from the Sun, floating in space.

 

That is all I know.

I am not nitya-siddha.

 

Ask the nitya-siddha vadis about that.

I am a baddha-jiva since the get go of my existence as a separated spark of the Supreme Sun Krishna.

 

Krishna generates souls from within himself eternally.

He is dynamic not stagnant.

 

He is a living thing that grows, expands and gives off energy.

I am just a photon of light that came out of the Supreme Light Bulb.

 

At one time I was within the light bulb.

Now, I am not.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

I wasn't asking *you*, but that's a great answer anyways!

 

I am still curious to hear a response from those who believe all jiva-souls are actually nitya-siddha.

 

 

You are asking the wrong person.

I am not the one saying I am nitya-siddha having a bad dream from Goloka.

 

I am nitya-baddha jiva who has been in this material condition of life ever since I emanated from Lord Vishnu as a spark of light emanates from the Sun.

 

At one time that spark was within the Sun God.

Then that spark came out and became part of the Sun planet.

Then that spark was propelled out from the Sun planet and became a separated spark from the Sun, floating in space.

 

That is all I know.

I am not nitya-siddha.

 

Ask the nitya-siddha vadis about that.

I am a baddha-jiva since the get go of my existence as a separated spark of the Supreme Sun Krishna.

 

Krishna generates souls from within himself eternally.

He is dynamic not stagnant.

 

He is a living thing that grows, expands and gives off energy.

I am just a photon of light that came out of the Supreme Light Bulb.

 

At one time I was within the light bulb.

Now, I am not.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

so it is not real knowledge is just something imaginary in a mental or intelectual plataform or word jugglery, not real realization. You cant know what i the flavour of an apple if you don't taste it before. In the spiritual world the jivas may know about the material world, but they don't know how it is!!

 

When Lord Vishnu spoke from within the heart to Brahma was that word jugglery on a mental platform, or real KNOWLEDGE (shabda brahman)? is realization of knowledge dependent on physical experience? Not in the least! You may not have the experience of the taste of an apple, but when you KNOW it is good you WANT to taste it. Did you have any problems eating mango for the first time? I dont think so.

 

The bogus and simplistic examples you use to support your pet theory are good for the first-graders. Only the deluded bhaktas in Iskcon fall for such naive explanations.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The fall-from-goloka fairytale is a siddhantic nightmare for ISKCON that breeds offensive neophytes with no concept of raganuga-bhakti.

 

The other part of this problem is a concept that ONLY SRILA PRABHUPADA is the authority. Many Iskcon devotees completely rejected what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and other acharyas wrote in order to promote literal understanding of Srila Prabhupada's statements, and to insist that they are completely correct in the siddhantic sense. Right before his passing, SP instructed his disciples to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja on philosophical matters. That instruction has been completely ignored by most of his disciples. Like you said, these offensive neophytes have polluted Prabhupada's movement with their arrogance and ignorance.

 

Last I checked, there are 110 comments on the sleeper theory posted on Dandavats. All full of quotes from Prabhupada that are very ambiguous and often contradictory. Because of this "ONLY SRILA PRABHUPADA is the authority" mentality, this and other similar debates will never be settled.

[sevabhakta 0]

 

The other part of this problem is a concept that ONLY SRILA PRABHUPADA is the authority. Many Iskcon devotees completely rejected what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and other acharyas wrote in order to promote literal understanding of Srila Prabhupada's statements, and to insist that they are completely correct in the siddhantic sense. Right before his passing, SP instructed his disciples to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja on philosophical matters. That instruction has been completely ignored by most of his disciples. Like you said, these offensive neophytes have polluted Prabhupada's movement with their arrogance and ignorance.

 

Last I checked, there are 110 comments on the sleeper theory posted on Dandavats. All full of quotes from Prabhupada that are very ambiguous and often contradictory. Because of this "ONLY SRILA PRABHUPADA is the authority" mentality, this and other similar debates will never be settled.

 

Please prove your "Srila Prabhupada said" that you offer here.

 

The one where Srila Prabhupada instructed "His disciples" (implying all) to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja on "philisophical matters" (aka the Gaudiya Siddhanta which he claims were covered fully in his books).

 

Since I know this is an impossibility for you, I will get to the point and label this just another one of Kulapavana's delerious attempts at directly implying that Srila Prabhupada is an incompetent hypocrite.

 

“In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.”

(Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa, 22/11/74)

 

 

"After 80 years, no one can be expected to live long. My life is almost ended. So you have to carry on, and these books will do everything."

(Room Conversation, 18/2/76)

 

"I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered.

(Letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)

 

Can anyone reading this imagine Srila Prabhupada writing personal letters to his disciples explaining the entire philosophy is in his books, and then tellling others that they can't get it from his books?

 

That is an insane proposition.

 

Hare Krsna

 

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Please prove your "Srila Prabhupada said" that you offer here.

 

The one where Srila Prabhupada instructed "His disciples" (implying all) to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja on "philisophical matters" (aka the Gaudiya Siddhanta which he claims were covered fully in his books).

 

Since I know this is an impossibility for you, I will get to the point and label this just another one of Kulapavana's delerious attempts at directly implying that Srila Prabhupada is an incompetent hypocrite.

 

 

The only incompetent hypocrites here are his disciples claiming there is no need to consult the Vaishnava standard of guru, sadhu and shastra because WE HAVE EVERYTHING IN SP BOOKS.

 

Define the "everything" that is in SP books as this term seems quite vague to me.

 

The PROOF we dont have "everything" in SP books are the endless debates between devotees over fundamental issues such as guru position and qualifications, initiations, or fall from Vaikuntha. If you think we dont need help from outside SP books on this matter you are simply delusional. The proof is right here on this very forum.

[CCC 0]

 

SP instructed his disciples to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja on philosophical matters. That instruction has been completely ignored by most of his disciples. Like you said, these offensive neophytes have polluted Prabhupada's movement with their arrogance and ignorance.

 

this is completely false provide us a quote where Srila Prabhupada say this

[Kulapavana 0]

"In my absence, if you have any question regarding philosophy you may consult my Godbrother, Swami B.R. Sridhara Maharaja at Navadwipa"

Bhaktivedanta Swami, Room conversation with disciples (Tamala Krsna Goswami, Hansadutta Dasa, Swami B. V. Tripurari & others), Vrndavana, India, October 1977.

[CCC 0]

 

"In my absence, if you have any question regarding philosophy you may consult my Godbrother, Swami B.R. Sridhara Maharaja at Navadwipa"

Bhaktivedanta Swami, Room conversation with disciples (Tamala Krsna Goswami, Hansadutta Dasa, Swami B. V. Tripurari & others), Vrndavana, India, October 1977.

 

is there a tape?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

is there a tape?

 

From what I have heard (devotees who actually were around SP during that time period) there definitely was a tape - almost everything was taped at that time. But a LOT of tapes from that time period are AWOL. There are rumors as to who might have taken posession of them but no public record.

[CCC 0]

 

From what I have heard (devotees who actually were around SP during that time period) there definitely was a tape - almost everything was taped at that time. But a LOT of tapes from that time period are AWOL. There are rumors as to who might have taken posession of them but no public record.

 

so there is no tape, no one have heard that tape.

 

Hansadutta Das, Tamal Krsna goswami have said that they were appointed gurus by SP and never provided a proof