Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 In this topic I will totally and completely defeat the false theory that the conditioned souls of the material world were originally in spiritual forms serving Krishna in Goloka. With conclusive evidence in the teachings of Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanya I will expose the myth, establish the truth and defeat the false propaganda that pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka fall down to become conditioned souls in illusion. First, what we must establish is the "constitutional position of the soul". The constitutional position of the soul is our original position as spiritual sparks. We hear many times in the books of Srila Prabhupada about this constitutional position of the soul and the spiritual spark - the soul. What is that constitutional position of the soul? Is it as a lover, friend, parent or servant of Krishna in Goloka or as a devotee of Narayana in Vaikuntha? No. We have never been devotees proper. We have never held such a position. Never.(before our current connection through the guru) So, what is our original relationship with Krishna? The answer to that question solves the mystery of the fall of the jiva into maya. The answer is given by Mahaprabhu in his teachings to Rupa Goswami. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.219 kevala 'svarūpa-jñāna' haya śānta-rase 'pūrṇaiśvarya-prabhu-jñāna' adhika haya dāsye SYNONYMS kevala — only; svarūpa-jñāna — knowledge of the constitutional position of one's self; haya — there is; śānta-rase — in the mellow of neutrality; pūrṇa-aiśvarya-prabhu-jñāna — knowledge of the full opulences of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; adhika — greater; haya — becomes; dāsye — in the transcendental mellow of servitude. TRANSLATION "On the platform of śānta-rasa, one realizes only his constitutional position. But when one is raised to the platform of dāsya-rasa, he better understands the full opulence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As such, our original constitutional position is in shanta-rasa. But, Mahaprabhu reveals a very important fact that the soul can be raised to higher levels beginning with dasya-rasa.:eek::eek: stay-tuned.... Next we will cover the position of shanta-rasa and what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Here in this next verse we find the knowledge of what constitutes shanta-rasa and what that position means. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.218 śāntera svabhāva — kṛṣṇe mamatā-gandha-hīna 'paraḿ-brahma'-'paramātmā'-jñāna pravīṇa SYNONYMS śāntera svabhāva — the characteristic of śānta-rasa; kṛṣṇe — in Kṛṣṇa; mamatā-gandha-hīna — not even the smallest quantity of intimacy; param-brahma — impersonal Brahman; paramātmā — the localized situation of the Lord; jñāna — knowledge; pravīṇa — prominence. TRANSLATION "It is the nature of śānta-rasa that not even the smallest intimacy exists. Rather, knowledge of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramātmā is prominent. PURPORT Because of an impersonal impression of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee in the śānta-rasa relationship worships the impersonal Brahman or localized aspect of the Absolute Truth (Paramātmā). He does not develop a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. As evident in this verse, our constitutional position was in the brahmajyoti where "not even the smallest intimacy" with Krishna exists. We were devotees of the impersonal form of the Lord in that position of shanta-rasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Here in this verse we find that in shanta-rasa there is no offering of service to Krishna. Service to Krishna is heralded at the next stage of dasya-rasa. Since our constitutional position was shanta-rasa according to Mahaprabhu we were not in the position of serving Krishna. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.221 śāntera guṇa dāsye āche, adhika — 'sevana' ataeva dāsya-rasera ei 'dui' guṇa SYNONYMS śāntera — of the platform of śānta-rasa; guṇa — the qualities; dāsye — on the platform of servitude; āche — are; adhika — additional; sevana — serving; ataeva — therefore; dāsya-rasera — of the platform of dāsya-rasa; ei dui guṇa — these two qualities (namely śānta and dāsya). TRANSLATION "The qualities of śānta-rasa are also present in dāsya-rasa, but service is added. Thus the dāsya-rasa platform contains the qualities of both śānta-rasa and dāsya-rasa. Actual service beings in dasya-rasa not in our constitutional position in shanta-rasa. To achieve dasya-rasa or a higher rasa that seed must be planted by the guru who can sow the seed of devotional service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Srila Prabhupada explains shanta-rasa in the Nectar of Devotion. According to some authorities, this condition cannot be accepted as one of the transcendental humors, or rasas, but Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī says that even if one does not accept it as a transcendental humor, one must still accept it as the beginning position of devotional service. So, the authorities do not usually give shanta-rasa as one of the transcendental humors but still recognize it as the basic platform from which devotional service develops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 NOD ch.35 In this connection, in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Lord Kṛṣṇa personally instructs Uddhava like this: "The state of being established in My personal form is called śānta-rasa, and without being situated in this position, no one can advance to actual pure devotional service." So, Lord Krishna says that without being situated in the personal conception of Godhead - the form of Krishna that the soul cannot advance to pure devotional service. The soul must "ADVANCE" from the impersonal conception of Brahman to the person conception of Brahman in order to actually attain to devotional service to Krishna. So, when the soul in shanta-rasa comes to accept the personal form of Krishna, then shanta-rasa is accepted as neutral devotional service. Without accepting the personal form of Krishna then shanta-rasa is not considered as a transcendental humor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Examples of how impersonal shanta-rasa becomes personal shanta-rasa is exampled in NOD ch. 35. Śukadeva Gosvāmī and Bilvamańgala Ṭhākura, who gave up the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth to take to devotional service, are the best examples of devotees situated in the neutral state. Bilvamańgala Ṭhākura was first spiritually initiated for impersonal realization of the Absolute Truth, but later on, by his association with Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana, he became an experienced devotee. The same thing happened to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, who also reformed himself by the grace of the Lord and took to the path of devotional service, giving up the way of impersonal realization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 So, Mahaprabhu clearly established that the original constitutional position of the soul was in impersonal shanta-rasa because Mahaprabhu did not consider that devotional service actually begins until the soul advances to dasya-rasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Srila Prabhupada explains that if a soul in shanta-rasa comes in contact with a devotee of Krishna his transcendental position can be CHANGED. NOD ch.35 If an impersonalist can, however, come in contact with a pure devotee, his transcendental position can be changed for greater elevation. Otherwise it is not possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 NOD ch.35 According to the conclusion of all authoritative Vedic scriptures, when a person comes to the stage of appreciating Viṣṇu, he is at the beginning of devotional service. If one cultivates devotional service further and further, under proper guidance, other features of devotional service will gradually become manifest. With proper guidance from a pure devotee of Krishna then shanta-rasa - the constitutional position of the soul can advance further to dasya-rasa etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 NOD ch.35 Even a person who is situated in Brahman realization, if he is put into association with devotees in pure devotional service, will immediately become attracted to the personal feature of the Lord. This statement describes how the constitutional position of the soul in shanta-rasa can be advanced to actual devotional service by association with devotees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 One of the most prominent ISKCON gurus Jayapataka Swami does not understand the teachings of Mahaprabhu. He is preaching that the constitutional position of the soul is not in shanta-rasa. Question from Bh.Sangeeth: Most Respected GuruMaharaj, In BG 14.27 we hear Krsna say " And Iam the basis of the impersonal Brahman which is imortal and imperishable, eternal, the constitutional position of Ultimate happiness" Why does Krsna say that impersonal Brahman is our constitutional position?. Thank you very much Guru maharaj. Your servant, Sangeeth. Lord Sri Krishna said that impersonal Brahman is eternal and the constitutional position of Ultimate happiness. The Lord didn't say it is our constitutional position to be in Bramha-jyoti. We should be in devotional service to Lord Sri Krishna! Jiver svarupa hoya nitya krishna dasa. I hope that this finds you in good health. Your ever well wisher, Jayapataka Swami So, this conception of the constitutional position of the soul is not even understood properly by big, big ISKCON gurus. Jayapataka Swami is obviously unfamiliar with the teachings of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu on the constitution position of the soul. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.219 kevala 'svarūpa-jñāna' haya śānta-rase 'pūrṇaiśvarya-prabhu-jñāna' adhika haya dāsye SYNONYMS kevala — only; svarūpa-jñāna — knowledge of the constitutional position of one's self; haya — there is; śānta-rase — in the mellow of neutrality; pūrṇa-aiśvarya-prabhu-jñāna — knowledge of the full opulences of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; adhika — greater; haya — becomes; dāsye — in the transcendental mellow of servitude. TRANSLATION "On the platform of śānta-rasa, one realizes only his constitutional position. But when one is raised to the platform of dāsya-rasa, he better understands the full opulence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.218 śāntera svabhāva — kṛṣṇe mamatā-gandha-hīna 'paraḿ-brahma'-'paramātmā'-jñāna pravīṇa SYNONYMS śāntera svabhāva — the characteristic of śānta-rasa; kṛṣṇe — in Kṛṣṇa; mamatā-gandha-hīna — not even the smallest quantity of intimacy; param-brahma — impersonal Brahman; paramātmā — the localized situation of the Lord; jñāna — knowledge; pravīṇa — prominence. TRANSLATION "It is the nature of śānta-rasa that not even the smallest intimacy exists. Rather, knowledge of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramātmā is prominent. PURPORT Because of an impersonal impression of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee in the śānta-rasa relationship worships the impersonal Brahman or localized aspect of the Absolute Truth (Paramātmā). He does not develop a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Devarsi Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 Nice Presentation KB. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 Nice Presentation KB. Hare Krsna I'm just trying to supply ammunition to the soldiers in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.219 kevala 'svarūpa-jñāna' haya śānta-rase 'pūrṇaiśvarya-prabhu-jñāna' adhika haya dāsye SYNONYMS kevala — only; svarūpa-jñāna — knowledge of the constitutional position of one's self; haya — there is; śānta-rase — in the mellow of neutrality; pūrṇa-aiśvarya-prabhu-jñāna — knowledge of the full opulences of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; adhika — greater; haya — becomes; dāsye — in the transcendental mellow of servitude. TRANSLATION "On the platform of śānta-rasa, one realizes only his constitutional position. But when one is raised to the platform of dāsya-rasa, he better understands the full opulence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.218 śāntera svabhāva — kṛṣṇe mamatā-gandha-hīna 'paraḿ-brahma'-'paramātmā'-jñāna pravīṇa SYNONYMS śāntera svabhāva — the characteristic of śānta-rasa; kṛṣṇe — in Kṛṣṇa; mamatā-gandha-hīna — not even the smallest quantity of intimacy; param-brahma — impersonal Brahman; paramātmā — the localized situation of the Lord; jñāna — knowledge; pravīṇa — prominence. TRANSLATION "It is the nature of śānta-rasa that not even the smallest intimacy exists. Rather, knowledge of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramātmā is prominent. PURPORT Because of an impersonal impression of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee in the śānta-rasa relationship worships the impersonal Brahman or localized aspect of the Absolute Truth (Paramātmā). He does not develop a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.2.17 purport, The Vaikuṇṭha planets are also forms of eternity, bliss and knowledge, and therefore the devotees of the Lord, who are admitted into the abode of the Lord, also get bodies of eternity, bliss and knowledge. Devotees who are admitted into the abode of the Lord GET spiritual bodies. Obviously, we are not in the spiritual world now dreaming that we are in illusion. If we GET spiritual bodies after admittance into the spiritual abode of the Lord, then that means we don't have a spritiual body now that we have forgotten about because we fell into maya in Vrindvana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted September 9, 2007 Report Share Posted September 9, 2007 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.2.17 purport, Devotees who are admitted into the abode of the Lord GET spiritual bodies. Obviously, we are not in the spiritual world now dreaming that we are in illusion. If we GET spiritual bodies after admittance into the spiritual abode of the Lord, then that means we don't have a spritiual body now that we have forgotten about because we fell into maya in Vrindvana. Nice topic! "The next question: the body of a pure devotee is all spiritual and he is not different from his body. That is also a fact. The bodies of all living entities, even though they are not pure devotees, are not actually the bodies of the spirit soul. It is always separate from the spiritual body. The Vedic mantra confirm it by the sound vibration that this spirit soul is always non-attached with the material body. Therefore, we do not see the actual spiritual body of a pure devotee; but what we see, that is matter. Just like the example is given of the shining moon covered by the cloud. When the cloud moves along with the peeping moonshine, it appears that the moon is moving. Anyone who has seen such movement of cloud in the sky must have this experience. So, the moving of the cloud may appear to the layman's eyes as moving of the moon, but that is not a fact. Similarly, the moving of the body of a pure devotee is not the moving of the pure devotee. After all these are facts for the process of realization, but we can try to understand them as far as possible from the statement of authorized scriptures through the version of the spiritual master or saintly person." 70-01-23 Letter ACBSP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 In this purport Srila Prabhupada explains that the brahmajyoti is the source of all the material ingrediants as well as all the living entities. Neophytes can think this is mayavada but the Bhagavatam confirms that the living entities are manifested from the brahmajyoti effuglence Of Krishna. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.5.14 The living entity is known as the marginal potency of the Lord. But in all circumstances, neither the material ingredients nor the spiritual parts and parcels are independent of the Personality of Godhead Vāsudeva, for all things, whether products of the external, internal or marginal potencies of the Lord, are simply displays of the same effulgence of the Lord, just as light, heat and smoke are displays of fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 In this purport we find that a jiva soul falls down due to not having any engagement in the service of the Lord. Falldown of the jiva happens from the Brahman platform. The liberated devotees of the Lord don't fall down because they have superior engagement. A jiva can only fall down from the Brahman platform, not from the platform of devotional service. There is no fall-down from the devotional service positions. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 14.27 purport, One who cannot elevate himself beyond the impersonal conception of Brahman runs the risk of falling down. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that although a person may rise to the stage of impersonal Brahman, without going further, with no information of the Supreme Person, his intelligence is not perfectly clear. Therefore, in spite of being raised to the Brahman platform, there is the chance of falling down if one is not engaged in the devotional service of the Lord. The living entity, although Brahman by nature, has the desire to lord it over the material world, and due to this he falls down. In his constitutional position, a living entity is above the three modes of material nature, but association with material nature entangles him in the different modes of material nature — goodness, passion and ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Good points, Guruvani prabhu! One of the most valuable things we can get from a pure devotee is the bhakti-lata-bija, the SEED of devotional mood. Which clearly means that prior to receiving such a seed we have NO CAPABILITY of devotion. If our constitutional position (svarupa) was that of a devoted servant we would not require such external INITIATION into the devotional mellow (rasa). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 One of the most valuable things we can get from a pure devotee is the bhakti-lata-bija, the SEED of devotional mood. Which clearly means that prior to receiving such a seed we have NO CAPABILITY of devotion. If our constitutional position (svarupa) was that of a devoted servant we would not require such external INITIATION into the devotional mellow (rasa). Exactly. This point seems to be lost on the fall-from-goloka proponents. They also seem to ignore the fact that according to association with liberated souls these seeds can be of different varieties. Lord Kapiladeva sewed a different seed in Devahuti and thus she attained his particular Vaikuntha planet. The Sri Vaishnvas get the seed of aishvarya bhakti and thus they attain Vaikunthas where Lord Narayana is served. Since Mahaprabhu, the seed coming in the Gaudiya sampradaya is principaly the seed of madhurya-rasa - the conjugal love of Krishna. We get the seed from authorized representatives of the Lord who come to take souls back to their own particular spiritual planet. Srila Prabhupada came to take souls back to HIS HOME - Back to Godhead in Goloka Vrindavan. Hence, "BACK TO GODHEAD" means back to Srila Prabhupada's home Goloka Vrindavan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Srila Prabhupada came to take souls back to HIS HOME - Back to Godhead in Goloka Vrindavan. Hence, "BACK TO GODHEAD" means back to Srila Prabhupada's home Goloka Vrindavan. I wish I could see things in such a cut-and-dried manner, but I cannot. Rather, I see "Back to Godhead" in a way similar to the Hassidic Jews see Israel (if memory serves). There are Jews who will not enter Israel until the Messiah comes to lead them there. Still, they consider Israel to be their true home. That's how I see Goloka. It's my home, whether or not I've ever been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsrowland Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Guruvani, I have ran across alot of your posts and debates on this forum and I have to applaud your rationality and sincerity for the truth. The ones who speak true and challenge falsities always are attacked...but keep your chin up and stay on course. Om Sri Ganeshaya Namaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 Guruvani, I have ran across alot of your posts and debates on this forum and I have to applaud your rationality and sincerity for the truth. The ones who speak true and challenge falsities always are attacked...but keep your chin up and stay on course. Om Sri Ganeshaya Namaha! Thank-you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acyutananda das Posted September 13, 2007 Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 And what about this verse: Caitanya Caritamrita. Madhya 22.107. nitya-siddha krsna-prema ‘sädhya’ kabhu naya çravaëädi-çuddha-citte karaye udaya “Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens." Do yoou think the soul has Krsna prema in shanta rasa. This verse clearly states that Krsna prema is not something to be gained from another source. So our original position is not something to be gained from another source... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted September 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2007 And what about this verse: Caitanya Caritamrita. Madhya 22.107. nitya-siddha krsna-prema ‘sädhya’ kabhu naya çravaëädi-çuddha-citte karaye udaya “Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens." Do yoou think the soul has Krsna prema in shanta rasa. This verse clearly states that Krsna prema is not something to be gained from another source. So our original position is not something to be gained from another source... We have to remember that the brahmajyoti is the impersonal form of Krishna. He has two forms - personal and impersonal. Shanta-rasa is love of Krishna in his impersonal form or the personal form if it reaches to Paramatma realization. There are two forms of shanta-rasa; impersonal realization and Paramatma realization which are both forms of Krishna. Even though love of Krishna is eternally in the heart it cannot "AWAKEN" without the seed of devotional service which is recieved from the spiritual master. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.151 brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja SYNONYMS brahmāṇḍa bhramite — wandering in this universe; kona — some; bhāgyavān — most fortunate; jīva — living being; guru — of the spiritual master; kṛṣṇa — of Kṛṣṇa; prasāde — by the mercy; pāya — gets; bhakti-latā — of the creeper of devotional service; bīja — the seed. TRANSLATION "According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> So, without the seed of DEVOTIONAL SERVICE the Krishna-prema in the heart of the jiva cannot awaken and blossom to it's fullest potential. Without the seed of devotional service, all the soul can understand is love of the impersonal form of Krishna in shanta-rasa. So, it appears that the Krishna-prema of the shanta-rasa is a most undeveloped and immature form of Krishna-prema of the lowest standard. The spiritual master can plant the seed of a higher kind of Krishna-prema in a higher form of devotional service. Shanta-rasa is NEUTRAL love of Krishna. The bhakti-lata-bija allows active, positive and progressive love of Krishna in one of the higher rasas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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