gauragopala dasa 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2007 .If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves. That imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ‘svarupa’. Therefore the ‘perishable’ is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones marginal identity. “The 'svarupa' of 'Jivas' is that they are part of the Lord, manifest for His pleasure, and are totally dependent upon Him… They are eternal, blissful nature, full of knowledge and having an original spiritual form spiritually similar to the Lords” . (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.) Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 reads as follows, explaining what imperishable means which is beyond the confines of material time and space: Babaji: The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time. therefore, whenever we make statements such as, 'the Jivas were created', 'thereafter the Jivas became bound by maya', 'the spiritual world became manifest', 'there is no aspect of maya in the constitution of the Jiva', material time influences our language. These kinds of statements are unavoidable in our conditioned state. For this reason, no statement concerning the Jiva and spirit is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time. Feelings of past present and future naturally creep in. therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time. Be very careful in this respect. Giving up the unwanted sense which is unavoidable (due to the influence of material time) try to experience the spirit........ I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly. As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception. You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being. The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world. Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it. The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world." (Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.). "We know there is the 'chit-shakti'. This is composed of the eternal associates of the Lord, the 'shakti-tattwa' personal bodily expansions of Krsna and Radha, who by constitution cannot ever fall. So Vrajanatha asks, is it that the 'chit-shakti' 'has created' the 'Jivas' through some transformation of the 'chit-shakti' itself, by which 'chit-shakti' beings are endowed with this marginal nature, a nature which allows them to come under the influence of 'maya'?"(Hrydayananda dasa Goswami. 1996. Our Original Position. page 110.) "Babaji's answer is, 'No, 'chit-shakti' is the complete potency of Krsna. Whatever it manifests (comes about from it - 'ubhava karena') are all 'nitya-siddha' objects."(Hrydayananda dasa Goswami. 1996. Our Original Position. page 111.) The 'svarupa' of 'Jivas' is that they are part of the Lord, manifest for His pleasure, and are totally dependent upon Him. They are eternal, blissful nature, full of knowledge and having an original spiritual form spiritually similar to the Lords'. However despite the resemblance to God's ('bimba'), no two individuals ('pratibimbatvas') being unique and distinctive, but tiny, will bear the same resemblance to the Lord in every respect, such as spiritual attributes, consciousness and bliss. (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.) Srila Prabhupada on letter to Australian devotees 1972 - "We cannot say, therefore, that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become the Lord, immediately we are covered by 'maya'. Formerly we were with Krsna in His 'lila', or sport. But this covering of maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore [in the interim] many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant hen one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. It is like a dream: We are thinking it is a very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. To give another example: Krsna's friends were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed. So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness this period is considered a second. Here Srila Prabhupada explains how this condition of illusion is 'very insignificant'. Not only is it insubstantial like a dream, but it is also momentary. Although within the dream unlimited years seem to pass, in reality the dream lasts virtually no time at all, a 'moment' or 'second'. Then Srila Prabhupada offers another example of how a seeming long duration of time can last only an instant. He recalls the story of how the cowherd boys napped under the spell of Brahma (Srimad Bhagavatam 10:13:40.), for only one 'truti' (8/13,500 of a second) of Brahma's time (Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3:11:14.), while an entire year passed in human time. Srila Prabhupada invokes the relativistic temporal structure of creation to explain how the illusion of the Jiva is insignificant." (Ravindra Swarupa dasa. January/February 1996. BTG, Back to Godhead Magazine. page 19.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gauragopala dasa 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2007 "We refer collectively to the essentially ('svarupa') of several things. But there cannot be a single essential attire common to many 'svarupas' as 'svarupa' by definition is strictly particular, belonging to only one thing. If another generality of 'svarupatvas' is admitted to run through many 'svarupas', that one and the other (remaining) 'svarupa' will have to be brought under the purview of another 'svarupatva' in its turn and so on ad infinitum. The difficulty can be avoided only by recognising with Madhwa that the different 'svarupas' are referred to by the same term 'svarupa' to show that each has a 'svarupa' of its own like any other and that no real thing is without a 'svarupa' of its own." (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.) Sankara's conception of consciousness and bliss are that they are qualities of 'Brahman' and not the 'Jiva'. Where as the truth is the other way round, Brahman is the effulgence of Krishna and that effulgence or Brahman IS Krishnas marginal potency or jivas manifesting as either their original perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, or similtaniously (due to the reality of time and space that exists in the mahat-tattva yet does not exist in Goloka) as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that is housed within the mahat-tattva, or proceed after billions of lives embodied to a dormant state of consciousness outside the restraints of the mahat-tattva. In this way ones consciousness can simply becomes a collective part of what we know as the Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti. Madhwa also states that the 'Jiva' has eternal individuality, possesses a form and a body, and that this is 'swaprakasha', self-illuminating. This although a totally different doctrine from Sankara's is sometimes termed as 'dehatmavada' in Madhwa literature. Madhwa's understanding of the 'Jiva' being 'amshatva', part of Brahman is different from that of Sankara. According to Madhwa the 'amshatva' of 'Jivas' is quite real and eternal. The followers of Sankara interpret the 'amshatva' as being 'kalpanika', imaginary and this being the only possibility that to them is logical (Madhusudan Saraswati, Advaita-Siddhi, page 846; K. Narain. 1986. A Critique of Madhva Refutation of the ffice:smarttags" />laceName>Samkara</ST1:PlaceName> <ST1:PlaceType>School</ST1:PlaceType> of Vedanta. page 315.). Actually Sankara didn't make any doctrine of the 'Jiva', his followers did (K. Narain. 1986. A Critique of Madhva Refutation of the laceName>Samkara</ST1:PlaceName> <ST1:PlaceType>School</ST1:PlaceType> of Vedanta. page 274.). According to Sankara Vedanta the effect, Brahman, the world, and the Jiva is absolutely or exclusively non-different from its effective cause, names, forms etc., which appear to have existence apart from Brahman are all unreal and as illusions have no existence of their own. Innumerable living entities move through varied stages of existence; some become eternally conditioned, some become eternally liberated. When the 'Jiva' rejects the Supreme Lord, he is eternally ensnared by matter; but if he again aspires for the shelter of the Lord, the curtain of 'maya' that separates the Jiva' from his own transcendental identity and qualities is forever removed; he is and immediately restored to his original pure self." (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Sri Sri Siksastaka - Sri Sanmodana Bhasyam, With Commentary By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada. sloka 1.) The jivas' are of the higher spiritual nature in actuality, thus in shastra they are either cited as being part of either 'chit-shakti' or 'para-shakti' as in the following example, "There are two scrupulous aspects one is known as essential power (Svarup-shakti) and the other is known as inter-mediatory power ('tatastha-shakti'); again this 'tatastha power is classified as Atomic ('Anu') and phenomenal ('chhaya'); the 'Anu-tatastha-shakti' actually in shastric etymology is known as 'jiva-shakti' ('jiva' soul); sometimes this 'jiva-shakti' also is categorically termed as 'Para-shakti' (superior power) and the phenomenal ('chhaya shakti') is known as 'Maya-shakti' otherwise known as the external potency." (B.P. Yati. 1978. Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Srimad Bhagavata Arka Marichimala. Chapter 10:5. excerpt, page 204.) "The 'Jiva' Brings About His Own Misfortune" The 'Jiva' was imprisoned in the illusory, ephemeral kingdom of 'maya' due to his turning away from Lord Krsna. Thus the conditioned soul has brought great misfortune upon himself; that misfortune is first and foremost his reluctance to serve the Lord. 'Anyabhilasita' means the base material desires which, when engaged in the 'karma' and jnana processes, lead to different levels of material enjoyments. Thus his base desires for sense gratification, 'karma' and 'jnana' have deluded the 'Jiva' into forgetting his real 'svarupa' (transcendental identity); they have propelled him into a whirlpool of misery. Under the spell of 'anyabhilasita' he is intoxicated by immediate sen-sual pleasures. Pious activities goad him to yearn for heavenly pleasures; his enjoyment of matter leads to frustration, and so he becomes engrossed in striving to realize the impersonal, non-differentiated Brahman. The 'Jiva's' own eternal desire is to engage in Lord Krsna's service, but the residue of the practice of these three paths has smothered this proclivity and hidden his good fortune. Now he is caught up in the endless pursuit of religiosity, material wealth, and sense gratification; thereafter, being harassed by the frustrations of his own sins, anarthas and lust, he pursues liberation." (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Sri Sri Siksastaka - Sri Sanmodana Bhasyam, With Commentary By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada. sloka 2.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
realist 0 Report post Posted September 2, 2007 Sankara's conception of consciousness and bliss are that they are qualities of 'Brahman' and not the 'Jiva'. Where as the truth is the other way round, Brahman is the effulgence of Krishna and that effulgence or Brahman IS Krishnas marginal potency or jivas manifesting as either their original perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, or similtaniously (due to the reality of time and space that exists in the mahat-tattva yet does not exist in Goloka) as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that is housed within the mahat-tattva, or proceed after billions of lives embodied to a dormant state of consciousness outside the restraints of the mahat-tattva. In this way ones consciousness can simply becomes a collective part of what we know as the Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti. Madhwa also states that the 'Jiva' has eternal individuality, possesses a form and a body, and that this is 'swaprakasha', self-illuminating. “The 'svarupa' of 'Jivas' is that they are part of the Lord, manifest for His pleasure, and are totally dependent upon Him… They are eternal, blissful nature, full of knowledge and having an original spiritual form spiritually similar to the Lords” . (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.) The 'svarupa' of 'Jivas' is that they are part of the Lord, manifest for His pleasure, and are totally dependent upon Him. They are eternal, blissful nature, full of knowledge and having an original spiritual form spiritually similar to the Lords'. However despite the resemblance to God's ('bimba'), no two individuals ('pratibimbatvas') being unique and distinctive, but tiny, will bear the same resemblance to the Lord in every respect, such as spiritual attributes, consciousness and bliss. (B.N.K. Sharma.1986. Philosophy of Sri Madhwacarya. page 110.) "Innumerable living entities move through varied stages of existence; some become eternally conditioned, some become eternally liberated. When the 'Jiva' rejects the Supreme Lord, he is eternally ensnared by matter; but if he again aspires for the shelter of the Lord, the curtain of 'maya' that separates the Jiva' from his own transcendental identity and qualities is forever removed; he is and immediately restored to his original pure self." (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Sri Sri Siksastaka - Sri Sanmodana Bhasyam, With Commentary By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada. sloka 1.) I have read this over and over and my question is, you say we have an eternal svarupa due to the non-presents of mundane time in Vaikuntha, if that is so, how can our rasa with Krishna change? Is our eternal body eternally the same, apparently not if we can change our rasa? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarva gattah 0 Report post Posted April 17, 2008 “It seems,” said Hari-sauri, “that it will take several generations before we can become purified.” “If one is sincere,” Prabhupada replied, “he can become purified even within one generation.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gauragopala dasa 0 Report post Posted April 17, 2008 “It seems,” said Hari-sauri, “that it will take several generations before we can become purified.” “If one is sincere,” Prabhupada replied, “he can become purified even within one generation.” Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah Srila Prabhupada is saying that our original and perpetual state of being a nitya siddha bodily servant of Krishna, MEANS never falling down, however he is also saying that the memory of being nitya-siddha can be covered over by the choice to imagine your own existence without Krishna, just like one may go into a day dream in their present material body and dream they are a King, while in the meantime their 'dreaming' material body has not moved. In this way Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and the memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming. What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha devotee becomes covered, it is like the cloud covering the sun only, under that cover of the cloud, the living entities restricted awareness becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) however the nitya-siddha body, like the Sun, is eternally there behind the clouds, behind the baddha-jiva consciousness. In fact most devotees in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha be covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious dream state. Therefore most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha. Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation? So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine and dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY. Most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha. Therefore, it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or nitya-baddha consciousness. This cloud covering is all we are aware off because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover therefore, we are nitya-baddha. We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity. Therefore our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious desires. Then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha dreaming condition is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity eternally serving Krishna. The majority of the marginal living entities or jivas, who are naturally ALL devotees of Krishna in their full potential, never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be compromised or covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious cloud or dream state that all living entities can activate, due to their unique free will and ability to choose. Such erroneous self-centred desires and dreams only place them in the transitory mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. The living entities natural constitution and perpetual position is serving Krishna, or one of His Vishnu tattva expansions in Goloka or Vaikuntha as nitya-siddha. Therefore most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha. Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation? Srila Prabhupada often emphasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because it is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity as their secondary non Krishna Conscious jiva-baddha state. Once we awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness, which is eternally in Goloka as nitya-siddha, the dream-like mayik existence created by our baddha-jiva consciousness will dissolve like the sunlight dissipates the darkness Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada - "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada clearly says we in the material condition of existence, is just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two states of existence for the marginal living entity called nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of is eternally in a Krishna Conscious bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self, while the non-free state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that creates the various dream identities. The nitya-baddha state is only activated when the marginal living entity or jiva-soul chooses to forget their perpetual original identity as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. This eternal abode of Krishnas is beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva and is the genuine Kingdom of God way beyond the heavenly world within the mahat-tattva (material creation). Three important points to understand Number 1. Many are suggesting we fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the Brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light which is actually a deposit of unlimited baddha-jiva souls in the dormant or dreamless ‘dream’ status of consciousness, only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the Brahmajyoti? Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the Brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.” Number 2. Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on August 6, 1973 ...73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6 Number 3. Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
realist 0 Report post Posted April 18, 2008 <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by gHari Do we think 'marginal potency' is a place? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Srila Prabhupada - "We are marginal energy! Marginal means sometimes internal, sometimes external. When we are under the internal energy, that is our normal life, and when we are under the external energy, that is our abnormal life. Therefore, we are called marginal energy; we can be either this way or that way. But being qualitatively one with the purusa, our tendency is to remain in the internal energy. Being in the external energy is our artificial attempt".letter to Lilavati prabhu April 25, 1969 Allston, Mass USA Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) as well as the impersonal Brahmajyoti from where some wrongly say we originate from as a plain sheet of consciousness." Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu." Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence" Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independant and eternally have free will. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada - "In Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 5.142) it is said, ekale isvara krsna, ara saba bhrtya: the only supreme master is Krsna, and all others, both visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva, engage in the service of the Lord. Both the visnu-tattva (as Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita) and the jiva-tattva (srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda) engage in the service of the Lord, but one must distinguish between the visnu-tattva servitors and the jiva-tattva servitors." Srila Prabhupada: "Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then"? Srila Prabhupada: "Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. ". 69-10-27 letter sent from John Lennon’s Estate Tittenhurst (Temporary Temple in 1969) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna. The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is actively within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels so one can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva. Or is conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm and outside the active mahat-tattva, within an Impersonal inactive dormant jiva-baddha dreamless condition known as the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman, where an unlimited number of 'jiva-baddhas' remain in that dormant state that appears and expands (due to souls constanly being liberated from the mahat-tattva) as an individual collective of living light particles, not aware of past, present and future. As already explained, Srila Prabhupada has told us that the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay. Both are temporary conditions because the DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually. Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha. The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuine identity perpetually. Srila Prabhupada is clearly telling us that the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and is given material ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams a temporary reality. However, they are subject to decay and are transitory. Srila Prabhupada is telling us that at the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams, ones 'svarupa' body is perpetually in Goloka in the eternal 'present' similtaneously. Unfortunately even many so called advanced devotees cannot understand these facts. At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand. It depends on the devotee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
realist 0 Report post Posted April 18, 2008 <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by gHari Do we think 'marginal potency' is a place? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Originally Posted by Sarva gattah Srila Prabhupada- "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - 1. Internal, 2. Marginal 3. External. 1. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia. 2. By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities. 3. And by means of His Lifeless external energy which includes all bodily costumes, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (also known as the mahat-tattva) Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109 It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikuntha by clearly studying the following - The three varieties of energies of Lord Krishna are therefore Superior - Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion. It is important to undertand that even though the marginal living entities are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the superior energy, they always remain marginal or jiva tatastha. Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independant and eternally have free will. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Having choice as a marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) is what it really means to be inbetween the Superior and inferior. It is not a place or plain, the individual jiva's ARE the marginal 'so called' marginal energy where one can choose to serve either Krishna's perpetual creation, or chase their own selfish desires, thoughts and imaginary worlds within Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM perishable creation or mahat-tattva. Inferior - The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies that include the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies. The life force from the Superior plain (Krishna and His expansions like Maha-Vishnu) and the marginal plain (the jiva-tatastha in their secondary nitya-baddha DREAMING conscious projection [except of course a nitya-siddha devotee in Krishna's lila in the mahat-tattva like Srila Prabhupada]) ALL move the inferior energies (material) that has no life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarva gattah 0 Report post Posted April 26, 2008 Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The below is from the Jaiva Dharma translated by Narayana Maharaja, first posted by Beggar (don't know his devotee name) There are other comments this author has made that still clouds the issue of the souls origin that Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated - 'We have all come down from Goloka some millions of years ago" I will wait for Hari Sauri's translations with Purports than continue to read Narayana Maharaja’s version - "Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal? Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present. Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva (anology discrition only) and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world". </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> The translaters of the above could be a little more clearer as explained below <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted on http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/446566-how-have-we-fallen-material-world-4.html No one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.WHY?? For a living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fall down previously, long, long, long ago from Vaikuntha, as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life.Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there again to the mahat-tattva or material creation to the encloser of ethereal and biological vessels. Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva. Secondly, the photo of the Sadhu laying down sleeping, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state. Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. This sentence is very important to understand. There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that. What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka. Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future. The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'. What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that. Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beggar 0 Report post Posted April 26, 2008 Srila Narayana Maharaja: “Isad apetasya viparyayo ’smrtih.” The jiva was standing on the line between the cit-jagat (transcendental world) and acit-jagat (the inert, material world). By chance he looked at this very lovely maya, who was showing the enjoyment of very beautiful ladies, husbands, and children calling, “Mommy, Mommy!” The jiva was attracted and thought, “I should enjoy.” Maya was guarding there and the jiva did not see her. She at once took him and gave him a subtle and gross body. Then what happened? After the manifestation of this material body, which is a bag of blood, urine, stool and pus, the jiva began to think, “I am this body, and everything in relation to this body is mine.” Once you enter this realm of existence, there is no way to come out. There is a way, but you will not be able to find it by yourself. So, “isad apetasya viparyayo ’smrtih.” When you looked upon maya and left Krsna by your free will – your independence – you became enveloped by the bodily conception of life (“viparyayo smrti”). With spiritual consciousness one can understand, “I am an eternal servant of Sri Krsna and I can serve Him with love and affection, like anyone in Vraja and Vaikuntha. I can also serve like the gopis.” Is it really important if the line the jiva is standing on, is really a line (or place) if indeed this description is from the viewpoint of the jiva manifesting which is a thought couched from the viewpoint of past, present and future - not the eternal present? The same is true of the statement that the jiva, "came down from Goloka millions of years ago" despite the fact that it was uttered by Srila Prabhupada himself. "Millions of years ago" is a concept of time, not the eternal present. These thoughts are just tools, the tools to engage us in sadhana bhakti to get out of this world, and go home back to Godhead - or realize that we are already liberated and then endeavor to act on that level of conciousness. Until we are seeing Krsna face to face what is the real importance of our words? ...only then will we really "know". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
