Worshipping a Beautiful Idea

[Guest guest]

Guruvani has provided lots of quotes, and not one is a criticism against Lord Jesus Christ. This is the point. Kbdas makes note of fanatics who are not preaching what Lord Jesus Christ taught, rather a gruesome display of more and more fanaticism. Srila Prabhupada preached vigorously against so-called followers of Lord Jesus Christ. He preached against the display of the weapon that was used to kill him as if it were some kind of a religious symbol. He accused the christian of killing their spiritual master, which is actually a very common, but serious offense; sinning on the strength of the Holy Name.

 

In kali yuga, it is NOT surprising. Lord Jesus Christ said that in this future, many will, in his name, attempt to spread false doctrine, and that he will wholeheartedly reject them. The false doctrine that the christian spreads is not the arguement here, though. We do not accuse great devotees of the Supreme Lord for the activities of those who pretend that they have his sanction, expecially, with very little study of the issues, actually, we see he clearly condemns such actions. This "only way" junk is also rejected specifically. He told his disciples, who were worried about another contemporary teacher of that era, that "those who are not against us are with us."

 

So, guruvani is wrong about nobody following Lord Jesus Christ. But he is right that there are not 1,000,000,000 true christians. If there are but a few, this is very surprising. But one who has taken Srila Prabhupada seriously and follows his formula for developing vaisnava character are actually following the same teachings of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Srila Prabhupada has the same kali-yuga based problems that Lord Jesus Christ has. His followers mislead in his name, and he specifically points this out, not in some obscure letter to a disciple or some business memo to his board of directors, but in his glorious books.

 

I join guruvani is his campaign against such nonsense. I actually dislike christian bigots probably much more than he does. I watch as the world burns because of some nonsense armageddonism sweeping the globe that bears the weapon used to kill Lord Jesus Christ, yet is proclaimed to be his teachings. I place the christian in the same boat as the madhi freaks, the zionist and the caste brahmanas. I witness them all enter the fire of their own creation.

 

However, there is a way out of this, and that is to actually hear from the authorities, and this takes being a paramahamsa. This takes a firmness of heart to actually HEAR what is being said. Lord Jesus Christ always tells thopse who are in the crowd, "Those who have ears, hear this". Srila Prabhupada tells us, "scrutinizingly understand this science." Both say to unreservedly give our love, mind, heart, body and actual self, to the Supreme Lorde. Both say to develop this love of God to such an extent that we will naturally love others to the extent that we love our very selves.

 

Im sure guruvani will want to contest this post, but he will again counter with some foolish ideas that false christians possess, and will give no hint at what Lord Jesus Christ wants for the world. He was killed by his own then and now, but they are not really his own. His murder was necessitated because of his success at mending the hearts of those who had ears to Hear. The Church that bears his name has always killed those who actually pass on his teachings as well.

 

I dont preach jesus stuff other than on my own website. I respond, like I do here, and maybe on the day that his birth is celebrated, I glorify his mother, and his wife is an awesome hero to me personally.

 

But I dont see a whole lot of difference in the spammer (anti)christian who invades vaisnava forums to create discord and the usual drivel spouted by proclaimed followers of Prabhupada who seem to hate each other more than catholics hate orangemen.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani 0]

The bottom line for me is what Srila Prabhupada wrote in his books;

 

 

So the comparative position of Vasudeva Datta is millions of times better than that of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

so, you guys can spend your time concerned with Jesus.

I don't have time for that.

I prefer to put my life energy into the Gaudiya philosophy.

 

Madhya 15.163 purport.

 

Jesus Christ relieved only his followers from all sinful reactions, but Vasudeva Datta is here prepared to accept the sins of everyone in the universe.

 

So I prefer the Vaishnavas.....

why?

 

 

A Vaishnava is so liberal that he is prepared to risk everything to rescue the conditioned souls from material existence.

 

 

Lord Jesus Christ certainly finished the sinful reactions of his followers by his mercy, but that does not mean he completely delivered them from the pangs of material existence.

[Guruvani 0]

Prabhupada writes, "Regarding your questions on Christianity, we are not very much keen to engage them in argument because for the most part they are sentimentalists and have no philosophy, therefore they become fanatics or dogmatists, and this type of person we cannot change. (Letter to Dasarha 1977 March 4 Bombay)

[Guruvani 0]

 

Lord Buddha is mentioned specifically in Srimad-Bhagavatam as incarnation of Godhead, and yet Vaishnavas do not accept his philosophy, which is classified as atheism. Similarly, even if we accept Lord Jesus Christ as saktyavesa avatara, it doesn't mean that we have to accept his philosophy. But we have all respects for him without fail. Regarding books like Aquarian Gospel or even the Testaments, we cannot accept them as authorities because sometimes it is learnt that the words are not actually spoken by Christ, but they are so set up by the devotees." (Letter to Hamsaduta, Nov.2, 1969)

 

 

Similarly, even if we accept Lord Jesus Christ as saktyavesa avatara, it doesn't mean that we have to accept his philosophy.

[Guruvani 0]

 

"The sastras of the yavanas, or meat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran.

Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge. Therefore, although they have their arguments and reasoning, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy, deem these scriptures unacceptable. (Cc Adi. 17,169 purport)

[Guruvani 0]

 

What's your view of Judaism and Christianity?"

Prabhupada replied, "I have not studied, but any "ism," if it is meant for making the soul free from this bodily condition, that is first class "ism." Otherwise, it is simply waste of time." (1976 July 16 New York)

 

Srila Prabhupada had never studied the Christian or Jewish books.

 

His example is the best example.

[Guruvani 0]

Srila Prabhupada on Christians:

 

they are sentimentalists and have no philosophy, therefore they become fanatics or dogmatists

[Guruvani 0]

Srila Prabhupada describes Christians:

 

 

fanatics or dogmatists, and this type of person we cannot change

 

It's quite obvious on this forum also that the fanatic and dogmatist Jesus people cannot be changed.

they insist to waste their time and energy on Jesus when they could be thinking about Krishna.

[Guest guest]

in a letter to Aniruddha

Los Angeles

14 November, 1968

 

Prabhupada wrote:

<i>Forgetfulness

 

of Krishna is the disease, so let us keep ourselves always in

 

Krishna Consciousness, and get out of the disease, that is

 

healthy life. Yes, Lord Jesus was jivatattva. He is not Vishnu

 

tattva. When a jiva tattva becomes specifically empowered by the

 

Lord, he is called Shaktavesh avatar.</i>

 

Does this sound like somebody who thinks Jesus was just a myth?

[Guruvani 0]

 

Srila Prabhupada fully supports the Lord Jesus Christ,

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

you shouldn't mislead people on what Srila Prabhupada actually said about Jesus.

Srila Prabhupada didn't "fully support Jesus".

That is just a false claim.

 

What he did say was:

 

 

Similarly, even if we accept Lord Jesus Christ as saktyavesa avatara, it doesn't mean that we have to accept his philosophy.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada did not accept the philosophy of Jesus.

He did not "fully support Jesus".

 

That is just false.

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

Does this sound like somebody who thinks Jesus was just a myth?

 

I just posted a quote where Srila Prabhupada said he never studied Christianity.

What did Srila Prabhupada know about Jesus other than a few one-liners that he has heard from other people?

 

Srila Prabhupada knew very little about the Bible and Jesus.

He never studied it.

 

If he thought it was important he surely would have studied the Bible, but he never bothered with it.

 

Does that sound like someone who thought Jesus was REALLY a shaktyavesha avatar?

 

If Jesus was really a shaktyavesha avatar them why didn't Srila Prabhupada bother to learn more about Jesus?

 

All he knew about Jesus was just a couple of lines like "thou shalt not kill" and "though shalt not steal" etc.

 

Srila Prabhupada was not the least bit interested in Jesus or he would have done some study on subject of Jesus.

 

But, said he never studied about Jesus.

He wasn't interested in Jesus.

 

He said a few positive things about Jesus but he always rejected Christianity and the philosophy of Jesus.

 

So, really why are some people trying portray Prabhupada as a Jesus freak?

[Guest guest]

 

I just posted a quote where Srila Prabhupada said he never studied Christianity.

What did Srila Prabhupada know about Jesus other than a few one-liners that he has heard from other people?

 

Srila Prabhupada knew very little about the Bible and Jesus.

He never studied it.

 

If he thought it was important he surely would have studied the Bible, but he never bothered with it.

 

Does that sound like someone who thought Jesus was REALLY a shaktyavesha avatar?

 

If Jesus was really a shaktyavesha avatar them why didn't Srila Prabhupada bother to learn more about Jesus?

 

All he knew about Jesus was just a couple of lines like "thou shalt not kill" and "though shalt not steal" etc.

 

Srila Prabhupada was not the least bit interested in Jesus or he would have done some study on subject of Jesus.

 

But, said he never studied about Jesus.

He wasn't interested in Jesus.

 

He said a few positive things about Jesus but he always rejected Christianity and the philosophy of Jesus.

 

So, really why are some people trying portray Prabhupada as a Jesus freak?

Knowing that Jesus was Shaktavesha and not studying Christianity are not inconsistent. Prabhupada had a mission beyond that. A full time mission.

Are you saying that Prabhupada was duped into committing himself into such a grand statement? That's speculative.

Where does he reject Christianity?

[Guruvani 0]

 

Where does he reject Christianity?

Srila Prabhupada"

 

 

Two thousand years have passed, but to date you have not been able to accept the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. And you are all claiming that you are Christian. But since when did you accept Christianity?

He said that in 2000 years the Christians haven't accepted the instruction of Jesus.

So, what use is Christianity if after 2000 years it hasn't produced a true follower of Jesus?

 

He rejected Christianity by pointing out that IT HASN"T WORKED even after 2000 years have passed.

 

He said that in 2000 years the Christians haven't been able to accept the instructions of Jesus.

 

So, as far I am am concerned that is rejecting Christianity.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada"

 

 

He rejected Christianity by pointing out that IT HASN"T WORKED even after 2000 years have passed.

 

He said that in 2000 years the Christians haven't been able to accept the instrucions of Jesus.

 

So, as far I am am concerned that is rejecting Christianity.

 

Well that is your preferred inference, but it is not conclusive. It hasn't worked because Christians haven't followed their guru's instructions (which BTW implies he exists), not because it doesn't work. There is no basis therefore to reject it.

The same holds true for many Prabhupada disciples who have gone astray for decades who haven't followed their gurus instructions. Should we reject bhakti-yoga therefore?

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Well, Guruvani, this is another fine mess my Beautiful Ideas have gotten us into!

 

 

--Me (paraphrasing Laurel and Hardy)

 

In any case, it was this expression (see below) from you, that inspired me to actually start this thread. Do you now repudiate your former statements?

 

 

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/443393-origin-biblical-monotheism.html

 

 

Modern religionists, called Christians, believe in the almighty God, the ONE supreme person who created the world.

They think Jesus was the incarnation of God.

 

To them God is omnipotent and all powerful.

 

They pray to God.

That is good.

 

I listened to Joel Osteen preaching a sermon on TV on Sunday and this guy blew me away.

I heard the spiritual master talking through him.

 

I know they are meat-eaters...yada...yada... yada...

 

But, there is a lot of good heart in modern Christians and they do more humanitarian work all around the world than anybody.

 

Really, they are worshiping Lord Vishnu, but they don't even know it.

 

Their faith is cluttered with Biblical accounts, but their faith has some value and God hears their prayers that is for sure.

 

When I saw that huge crowd of people all humbled in church and hearing the "word of God" I was touched....I got a little choked-up.

 

All that old Biblical stuff doesn't really mean much.

It's faith in God and a great appreciation for the value of human life that makes Christianity a positive force in the world.

 

I have been good friends with a couple of devoted Christian men and they knew I followed the Hare Krishna faith.

We got along like brothers and had very good dealings and with each other.

They liked me a lot, even though I was a Hare Krishna, so I don't judge Christians harshly at all.

 

I wish the Hare Krishna people were as simple and sincere as many of the Christians I have known.

 

If the Hare Krishna movement had the sincerity and simpleness of the Christian people, the movement wouldn't be in the mess it is in today.

 

I think there is a lot that the Hare Krishna movement could learn from the Christian church in the western world.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Well, Guruvani, this is another fine mess my Beautiful Ideas have gotten us into!

 

 

 

My point previously, that maybe got lost in the confusion was that the religious sentiment of modern people transcends this Christian identification.

 

My point was that I think there are some fine religious sentiments in many people of the world, but I am saying that I think it is a shame that this religious sentiment has to be stiffled by the Christian dogma.

 

Religious people of the world are all being told that the only place to put their religious faith is in Jesus.

 

Well, I think it is a shame that such fine religious sentiments that many good people in the world have has to be stiffled with the Christian propaganda.

 

Many "christians" do have a respectable faith in God, but it is not due to Jesus or Christianity but due to the fact that they are spiritual beings in nature and naturally inclined to believe in God.

 

My point was that their faith transcends Christianity.

 

My point is that IN SPITE of Jesus and Christianity many "christians" have a strong faith in a personal God.

 

I don't think that Jesus or Christianity should get all the credit for the natural religious instincts of people.

Most of it comes from the fact that God is in the heart of every living being, not because Jesus died on the cross or all that bunk.

[Guest guest]

Dont tell me not to mislead people. You are the fanatic here, misleading others into thinking Srila Prabhupada considered Lord Jesus Christ as ordinary. This is a great offense. Your defensiveness on this issue has nothing to do with spreading Srila Prabhupadas message, as you continually try to change his message concerning Lord Jesus Christ. Get a life, dude.

 

mahaksadasa

[Guruvani 0]

 

Dont tell me not to mislead people. You are the fanatic here, misleading others into thinking Srila Prabhupada considered Lord Jesus Christ as ordinary. This is a great offense. Your defensiveness on this issue has nothing to do with spreading Srila Prabhupadas message, as you continually try to change his message concerning Lord Jesus Christ. Get a life, dude.

 

mahaksadasa

 

Well, if you really look at the situation honestly, I would have to admit that it appears that in fact this whole Jesus idea and the Christian church is preventing more people from getting the mercy of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement than any other force in the western world.

 

JESUS is keeping many people away from Krishna.

The Christian church is keeping many people away from Krishna.

 

Like Srila Prabhupada said : we cannot change these people, they are just fanatics and dogmatists.

 

At this point in human society, it appears that Jesus has become more a part of the problem than a part of the solution.

 

Jesus or Krishna?

There is only a small handful of people on the planet that think they can have both.

 

You are one of the very few devotees I have ever known that had any concern about Jesus.

 

You Jesus people are loud on the forum, but I lived in ISKCON for years and Jesus freaks like you didn't exist in Srila Prabhuapda's ISKCON.

 

You people exist on the very fringes of Srila Prabhupada's movement - not in the center.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

My point was that their faith transcends Christianity.

 

My point is that IN SPITE of Jesus and Christianity many "christians" have a strong faith in a personal God.

 

And the faith of the Vaishnava transcends "Hinduism", doesn't it?

 

In fact, many Vaishnavas have a strong faith in and love for Sri Krishna *despite* all the dry lectures about how the US space program never went to the moon.

 

I'm realizing that the bottom line here is: without the key ingredient of Bhakti (devotion) being present everything we say or do in our "spiritual lives" is just playing mind games.

 

I have to ask myself: just how much devotion is present in my thoughts, words and deeds, and how much of what I do is simply based on habit and compulsion?

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Further along these lines (from page 12 of the Introduction to "Golden Volcano of Divine Love"):

 

http://www.scsmath.com/books/Golden_Volcano.pdf

 

 

“This is the all-conquering conclusion. The highest conception

 

 

of the Ultimate Reality must also be the highest

 

 

form of ananda, ecstasy. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is

 

 

Krishna, ecstasy Himself, tasting His own sweetness and

 

 

dancing in ecstatic joy. His own Holy Name is the cause

 

 

of His ecstasy, expressed as dancing, and the Holy Name

 

 

is the effect of His ecstasy, expressed as chanting. The

 

 

cause is the effect. The dynamo is creating ecstatic energy

 

 

which makes Him dance, and His chanting distributes

 

 

that ecstasy to others.”

 

 

 

Also, from the following passage (from the first page of the Introduction):

Srimad-Bhagavatam

expounds as the highest attainment of theism not

consciousness, intelligence, or ontology, but ecstasy,

beauty, and harmony—rasa. In Srimad-Bhagavatam,

rasa is all-important. It is a unique treatise, for it

takes theism from the plane of intellectual jugglery

to the domain of rasa.

we can see the importance of Bhakti in relation to Srimad Bhagavatam. It is the attainment of the rasas, which are, after all, flavors of Bhakti/devotion which allows us transcend "intellectual jugglery."

 

 

 

And the faith of the Vaishnava transcends "Hinduism", doesn't it?

 

In fact, many Vaishnavas have a strong faith in and love for Sri Krishna *despite* all the dry lectures about how the US space program never went to the moon.

 

I'm realizing that the bottom line here is: without the key ingredient of Bhakti (devotion) being present everything we say or do in our "spiritual lives" is just playing mind games.

 

I have to ask myself: just how much devotion is present in my thoughts, words and deeds, and how much of what I do is simply based on habit and compulsion?

[theist 1]

 

I have to ask myself: just how much devotion is present in my thoughts, words and deeds, and how much of what I do is simply based on habit and compulsion?

 

*'Stalking the mind' is the occupation of a truth hunter. We must be rentless. Sleep with one eye open because the mind is also stalking us.

 

*Carlos Casteneda

[gHari 0]

When a 'Christian' dogs Krsna, I write him off as a poseur, a worthless fool. When Christians meet this fellow they will do the same.

 

Hopefully we won't all be marked as demonic because of a few, but I guess we will. Some service to Prabhupada; disclaimers should be tattooed on his forehead.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

When a 'Christian' dogs Krsna, I write him off as a poseur, a worthless fool.

 

Your points are well taken regarding expressing dogmatic intolerance and how repulsive such expressions are.

 

However, I wish it was as simple for me as it is for you to dismiss the false Christians from my thoughts and go on about my business. Unfortunately, they often carry guns and wear uniforms and sit in oval-shaped offices and wave the flag of the country in which I was born in justification of carrying out daily atrocities.

 

This brings to mind the only Rolling Stones song I bother to play:

 

Citadel

 

(Jagger/Richards)

 

Men at arms shout "who goes there"

We have journeyed far from here

Armed with bibles make us swear

 

Candy and Kathy, hope you both are well

Please come see me in the citadel

 

Flags are flying, dollar bills

Round the heights of concrete hills

You can see the pinnacles

 

Candy and Kathy, hope you both are well

Please come see me in the citadel

 

In the streets of many walls

Hear the peasants come and crawl

You can hear their numbers called

 

Candy and Kathy, hope you both are well

Please come see me in the citadel

 

Screaming people drive so fast

In their shiny metal cars

Through the woods of steel and glass

 

Candy and Kathy, hope you both are well

Please come see me in the citadel

 

***

 

To all the Vaishnavas in the good ole U S of A, have a safe, happy, Hari Nama-filled Fourth of July!!

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada's comments about Christ as if Christ was a real

historical figure show that he had no knowledge that the

Christ story is a literary fraud. There was no Christian messiah

as he is described in the New Testament(NT). Everything he's

supposed to have said and done was borrowed directly or

rewritten from the writings of other nations and religions.

 

NT's main sources are the Old Testament and Hindu-Buddhist

literature. Regional literatures from Egypt, Greece, Rome,

Persia and others are its auxiliary sources. The "new" in

the New Testament is a compilation of selected teachings,

declarations, parables, stories and descriptions of events

from Hindu-Buddhist texts.

[gHari 0]

Scholar, my a#$.