Speculative Investments = Gambling??

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Theist Prabhu recently mentioned how he is able to maintain his existence without working 9 to 5 for "the man".

 

One method he mentioned was "day-trading". I have to wonder if he actually makes any money doing this or if he's just making money for his broker.

 

You see, as I've mentioned before on this forum, my good father is currently depressed. One reason is, over the past so many years he has lost over $140,000 dollars "day-trading" (maybe I'm selfish, but I can't help thinking of how I'm still basically paying interest only on my student loans). This was concealed from me (not that I have a right to know). When my dad had a good day, I'd hear about it. Needless to say, there weren't too many of those days. He managed to delude himself for years into believing that sitting in front of the computer all day watching numbers go up and down as he fretted was a viable way to earn a living. Meanwhile, his sadhana, seva, and audarya were neglected.

 

Materially-speaking, I've seen stock markets as even more crooked than the casinos in terms of how the odds are stacked. Basically, stock-markets appear to me to be a way for the very rich to soak the middle class of their hard-earned disposable income.

 

From the Vaishnava perspective, is speculative investment to be considered gambling?

[Guest guest]

 

From the Vaishnava perspective, is speculative investment to be considered gambling?

 

It can be - when from rational and sensible trading it changes into compulsive and often irrational risk taking in order to get rich quick.

 

So many economic activities involve taking risks with your money. Taking risks is not gambling. Gambling is a compulsive behavior when we risk money to get rich quick and we are obsessed with winning.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

It can be - when from rational and sensible trading it changes into compulsive and often irrational risk taking in order to get rich quick.

 

So many economic activities involve taking risks with your money. Taking risks is not gambling. Gambling is a compulsive behavior when we risk money to get rich quick and we are obsessed with winning.

 

Thanks for the reply, Lowborn-ji! I see your points while remaining skeptical as to whether such thing exists as "rational and sensible trading"--at least in regards to day-trading.

 

Unlike traditional stock investments, where a person buys stock in a company based on its past performance, business model, and future outlook, making profits primarily on dividends, by its nature, day-trading involves trying to capitalize on the volatility of the market--which smacks of gambling.

 

I've joked in the past that, each morning, I pray for the Western financial system to collapse since, as observed by the band James, "Money gets directed to ambition, and not to need."

 

Another question, if I may. If gambling is recognized by its compulsive nature, would you say that a professional poker player, who is very adept at counting cards, reading people's faces, and keeping his/her cool, is not breaking the regulative principles by engaging in his/her profession?

[gHari 0]

Gambling increases our attachment to what happens in the material sphere. Will it be snake eyes or seven? Will go up or down? I think this is the bottom line about gambling.

[theist 1]

 

One method he mentioned was "day-trading". I have to wonder if he actually makes any money doing this or if he's just making money for his broker.

 

I am with Ameritrade, a discount broker. $9.99 in and $9.99 out. My broker earns their money by setting up the very best trading platform for guys like me, the crumb snatchers.

 

It has worked for me as I am only now having to go back daytrading massage and hypnosis as my funds are running low. I have been living off of what I acquired in in 1999. It has served me well.

 

Is it gambling. I don't see it that way. Gambling is a game of chance whereas daytrading comes with an adundance of knowledge in the company. BTW I don't invest. I am in and out the same day or at the most 1 or 2 days. It's called momentum trading.

 

I think opening a small business is much more akin to gambling myself. Certainly much more risk.

 

But gambling or not gambling I never made any vows. And one can still view whatever comes in as Krsna's and avoid greed while daytrading whereas 99.999999% of ordinary workers are deeply attached to the fruit of their labors.

 

PS for anyone nterested I have found Ford (F) to be a good safe play. Cheap, small movements in price, small gains but safe.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

I am with Ameritrade, a discount broker. $9.99 in and $9.99 out. My broker earns their money by setting up the very best trading platform for guys like me, the crumb snatchers.

 

So then, you *do* make $20 for your broker minimum each day you trade. Not bad for them considering there's zero work involved (assuming you're doing everything online).

 

 

It has worked for me as I am only now having to go back daytrading massage and hypnosis as my funds are running low. I have been living off of what I acquired in in 1999. It has served me well.

 

I should be happy for your good fortune (and intelligence) and not envious. The idealist in me doesn't want to believe it's possible. I imagine, for every person like you, there are fifty like my Dad (I know a couple personally) who end up losing their shirts in the long run.

 

My desire here is not to criticize you, but to warn others. If they think they can earn a living this way, they may be very disappointed.

 

Didn't an ISKCON Guru lose $40 million of ISKCON funds a few years back in the stock market?

 

 

Is it gambling. I don't see it that way. Gambling is a game of chance whereas daytrading comes with an adundance of knowledge in the company. BTW I don't invest. I am in and out the same day or at the most 1 or 2 days. It's called momentum trading.

 

An abundance of knowldege in the company, eh? From what source does that knowledge come--quarterly reports and analysts? The writers of those reports and the analysts are pure of heart and without ulterior motive? Or do you sit on the Board of Directors of Ford?

 

How much knowledge did you have of what was really happening at Enron back in 1999? The cheaters and the cheated.

 

 

I think opening a small business is much more akin to gambling myself. Certainly much more risk.

 

Be that as it may, a small business will not survive for long unless it serves a useful purpose. What useful purpose does day trading serve besides serving the trader (and often serving the trader poorly)? At least with a small business, success can be directly tied to the efforts of the proprietors.

 

 

But gambling or not gambling I never made any vows. And one can still view whatever comes in as Krsna's and avoid greed while daytrading whereas 99.999999% of ordinary workers are deeply attached to the fruit of their labors.

 

Hey, I didn't make any formal vows either, and I have taken Hari Nama (but not diksha) from Gurudeva. Someone asked Gurudeva once, "So, you are mentioning the 10 offenses to be avoided but not mentioning the 4 regulative principles. Do we still need to follow them?" I don't recall Gurudeva's exact response, but it was akin to "Of course!!"

 

What I take from this is: the four regulative priciples are not directly related to our practicing life--rather, they are a prerequisite, they are guidelines for civilized living--whether or not any formal vow is there.

 

 

PS for anyone nterested I have found Ford (F) to be a good safe play. Cheap, small movements in price, small gains but safe.

 

Or, you can just send your money to me for burning.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

"Money gets directed to ambition, and not to need."

 

Another consideration...Karma!!

 

If we get karma for voting a demon into political office, wouldn't we also get karma for providing capital to demons to further their exploitation of the developing world?

 

Of course, we get karma for any actions we undertake that are not accepted as service by the Lord. So, if we, say, buy a Ford Explorer for our own enjoyment, it would be similar to investing in Ford stock.

 

Ultimately, as gHari Prabhu says, we wish to minimize our investment of energy (money, consciousness, etc.) into the material world.

 

Maybe I'm having a "Guruvani Moment", but I fail to see how day-trading can be harmonized with Vaishnavism. In my mind, being a good day-trader is the same as knowing all the horses down at the track very well--there's some chance involved, but, on a given day, you'll call the winner.

[theist 1]

I won't bother answering your point for point and defend how I earn my food and shelter as it really is none of your business. Think what you like. It is obvious that you are bitter about your dad losing "your" 140,000. Got news kid, that $140,000 was never your dad's or your's, it always belonged to Krsna. God gives and God takes away.

 

Just make sure whatever business you get into is perfectly moral. Lot's of devotees are into IT which is connected up to child pornograhy, porn in general, terrorist communication vehicle and internet gambling.

 

Let's see what you come up with.

 

Excuse me now, I've got to check my lotto ticket.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Looks like I've managed to irk you Prabhu. Perhaps that *was* my goal after all--I've admitted to being envious. Let's save the apologies for later, though.

 

You're right that I'm bitter. I was bitter about the stock market before my father ever placed his first bet. I thought the stock market was a crock of crud when I first heard about it.

 

Srila Prabhupada's mood can certainly be characterized as bitter when it comes to the British Raj, science, and materialism in general. As much time as I spend here trying to defend science as being yet another tool for preaching, I can also see how this bitterness has a definite constructive and instructive purpose.

 

I pray that this bitterness in my heart towards the religion of Economics (which *is* a religion after all, based on the premise of greed (limited resources and unlimited desires)) and the countless atrocities carried out daily in its name (melanine in your cat food or farmed fish anyone?), has been placed there by a Higher Power for some Greater Purpose.

 

 

I won't bother answering your point for point and defend how I earn my food and shelter as it really is none of your business.

It was none of my business until you mentioned it (even in passing) in a public forum. At that point you are subtly (or not so subtly) influencing others (especially the many who look to you as an authority--as I do). I take it as my duty to not let such seemingly minor things slide by without comment.

 

 

 

Think what you like. It is obvious that you are bitter about your dad losing "your" 140,000. Got news kid, that $140,000 was never your dad's or your's, it always belonged to Krsna. God gives and God takes away.

 

Just make sure whatever business you get into is perfectly moral. Lot's of devotees are into IT which is connected up to child pornograhy, porn in general, terrorist communication vehicle and internet gambling.

Wow!! I never expected a personal attack from you of all people!

 

For the record, I work for the government. Think what you like about that, but I can assure you none of the things you mentioned are part of our business model.

 

Now it's time for apologies...I'm sorry I mentioned you by name at the start of this thread. That was inconsiderate and rude on my part. No doubt, the same objective could have been achieved without putting you in the hot seat.

 

I offer my obeisances to you with all the sincerity and humility I can muster.

 

May you win the lotto and build many temples and publish many books.

 

Theist Prabhu ki jai!!

[AncientMariner 0]

 

Looks like I've managed to irk you Prabhu. Perhaps that *was* my goal after all--I've admitted to being envious. Let's save the apologies for later, though.

 

You're right that I'm bitter. I was bitter about the stock market before my father ever placed his first bet. I thought the stock market was a crock of crud when I first heard about it.

 

Srila Prabhupada's mood can certainly be characterized as bitter when it comes to the British Raj, science, and materialism in general. As much time as I spend here trying to defend science as being yet another tool for preaching, I can also see how this bitterness has a definite constructive and instructive purpose.

 

I pray that this bitterness in my heart towards the religion of Economics (which *is* a religion after all, based on the premise of greed (limited resources and unlimited desires)) and the countless atrocities carried out daily in its name (melanine in your cat food or farmed fish anyone?), has been placed there by a Higher Power for some Greater Purpose.

 

 

It was none of my business until you mentioned it (even in passing) in a public forum. At that point you are subtly (or not so subtly) influencing others (especially the many who look to you as an authority--as I do). I take it as my duty to not let such seemingly minor things slide by without comment.

 

 

 

Wow!! I never expected a personal attack from you of all people!

 

For the record, I work for the government. Think what you like about that, but I can assure you none of the things you mentioned are part of our business model.

 

Now it's time for apologies...I'm sorry I mentioned you by name at the start of this thread. That was inconsiderate and rude on my part. No doubt, the same objective could have been achieved without putting you in the hot seat.

 

I offer my obeisances to you with all the sincerity and humility I can muster.

 

May you win the lotto and build many temples and publish many books.

 

Theist Prabhu ki jai!!

 

 

The way I look at it the military industrial complex has made life so difficult and such high taxes that I can't critisize people for trying to make a living. I have daytraded and even made money playing video games on the internet and too be honest I am not ashamed of it. I honestly wish life was a Vaikuntha temple and all the worlds population was brahamanas and there was no military industrial complex but I am not ashamed that I have done my best to be as honest as possible and still make a living in the most horrible of conditions at least from a spiritual perspective. I welcome the day the Kalki avatar arrives and puts and end to the military industrial complex government of high taxation etc but until then I do my best to get by as honestly and cleanly as possible. I know you aren't talking to me so i apologize if I am offending you by responding to your post.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

AM-ji,

 

Why should I be offended? This is a public discussion. Your points are welcome and are well-taken. Thank you!

 

I'm not trying to criticize Theist or anybody for how they make their living (quite a few Vaishnavas (some of them I daren't call "aspiring") earn a living growing sacred herbs).

 

My hope is that others (who are as gullible and naive as I am) can learn from my father's (and countless others) experience, and avoid learning the lesson the hard way.

 

Military-Industrial complex ki BOOOOO!!!

 

 

The way I look at it the military industrial complex has made life so difficult and such high taxes that I can't critisize people for trying to make a living. I have daytraded and even made money playing video games on the internet and too be honest I am not ashamed of it. I honestly wish life was a Vaikuntha temple and all the worlds population was brahamanas and there was no military industrial complex but I am not ashamed that I have done my best to be as honest as possible and still make a living in the most horrible of conditions at least from a spiritual perspective. I welcome the day the Kalki avatar arrives and puts and end to the military industrial complex government of high taxation etc but until then I do my best to get by as honestly and cleanly as possible. I know you aren't talking to me so i apologize if I am offending you by responding to your post.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Anways, I think reception on Radio Paramatma is a little static-y for Theist-ji today.

 

I'm so clever I make myself sick...

 

Note to self: Bhaja Govinda...

[AncientMariner 0]

 

AM-ji,

 

Why should I be offended? This is a public discussion. Your points are welcome and are well-taken. Thank you!

 

I'm not trying to criticize Theist or anybody for how they make their living (quite a few Vaishnavas (some of them I daren't call "aspiring") earn a living growing sacred herbs).

 

My hope is that others (who are as gullible and naive as I am) can learn from my father's (and countless others) experience, and avoid learning the lesson the hard way.

 

Military-Industrial complex ki BOOOOO!!!

 

 

Yeah let me make it clear as well I wouldn't encourage people to daytrade because you can get your clock cleaned and a lot of people do lose everything doing it so your point is well taken. For the most part wall street is a scam no doubt about it but in my experience daytrading is better odds than any casino game and intelligence, and experience can help you out to some degree.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Yeah let me make it clear as well I wouldn't encourage people to daytrade because you can get your clock cleaned and a lot of people do lose everything doing it so your point is well taken. For the most part wall street is a scam no doubt about it but in my experience daytrading is better odds than any casino game and intelligence, and experience can help you out to some degree.

So true!!!

 

The reason I say the stock market is a means for the rich to soak the middle class is because, really, only someone who is independently wealthy (like Theist, apparently), can afford to play that game in any significant way.

 

You should really only invest money that you can afford to burn. Investing your rent or food money in the market is a really bad idea, no?

 

I actually *do* know a devotee lady who married a professional poker player. I don't know him well, but can tell just from his demeanor that he is a very shanti, mode-of-goodness person and worthy of all respect.

 

Before my first son was due, I was content to work minimally, live simply and spend a lot of time working on music. With a child on the way, it was obvious that I needed something more secure (and with health benefits). This was in the year 2000 at the height of the first Internet bubble and everybody urged me to go for the stock options at a start-up. My heart screamed too loudly in protest to let me do that, and through the mercy of Gurudeva (it really wasn't much of my own doing at all), I ended up here working for the government. In hindsight, it was an intelligent decision as my chances of hitting it big in the boom would have been about the same as Theist-ji's chances of winning the lottery.

 

Now, if Maya Devi, in her infinite mercy, is deluding Theist into believing that day-trading is an honorable way to make a living (just as she is deceiving me into believing that working for the government is an honorable profession), what complaint can I have?

 

Theist Prabhu. Please don't disappoint me. Bless me with your shoe upon my head!!!!

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Day-trading is purely exploitative (name one direct (no trickle-down economics accepted) benefit to society from an individual day-trading).

 

At least with "the pick", the pick-ee gets a sticker or a hat or a CD from the arrangement.

[theist 1]

 

The reason I say the stock market is a means for the rich to soak the middle class is because, really, only someone who is independently wealthy (like Theist, apparently), can afford to play that game in any significant way.

 

 

Not so by any means. I have no family to support, no car, no house I live in a rent controlled old apartment building, no health insurance except the county clinic for the poor, I am on the universal lifeline telephone program for th poor so we can call for help should an emergency arise, no social security checks from the government, barely enough money in my account to buy and sell a block of cheap stock. I live far below the poverty line and I might add I live in a fairly content mind since I don't desire to accumulate anything enough to be motivated to go work for it.

 

Got anymore silly little statements, phony apologies or would you care to just whine some more about how you have to pay back your student loan.

[Guruvani 0]

Well, if you want to get technical, even if a vaisya merchant buys a load of mangos to sell in his market at the bazaar he is in a sense "speculating" that he will be able to in turn sell enough of those mangos at a profit that he can make some profit.

Most all "business" requires some degree of speculative investment in the buy and sell world of business.

 

The stock market is just a step up from that buy wholesale/sell retail enterprise.

 

So, I am not so sure that the stock market is "gambling" in the strict sense.

 

If it is, then so is retail marketing and buying wholesale.

 

Most all business has some degree of speculative element to it.

 

Being a merchant is speculation on what you can buy wholesale and sell retail.

I have seen merchants lose money on wholesale investements.

 

So, if we totally eliminate all speculative enterprise then we must elimate all forms of business.

 

Even a farmer who grows a crop to sell at the market is "speculating" on that investment that there will be buyers at the market.

 

So, I think wise investing in the stock market is no worse than farming or retail merchandising.

 

It's a proven fact that over the last half century that stock market investing has proven to overall be more lucrative than the highly acclaimed real estate investing.

 

A smart stock market investor can make a fortune.

 

Smart day traders can make big profits.

 

But, many people have lost their life savings on the stock market.

So, it has it's risks for sure.

 

If I had money to invest I wouldn't hesitate to find some good stocks to invest in.

 

This is America in the 21st century.

We can't play by the rules of ancient India when it comes to financial necessities.

 

I heard that Corning was a good investment for the next few years.

 

I guess they are into fiber optics.

[krsna 3]

With so much cheating going on in gov't, society and with people -how is it really possible to earn an ***"honest "***living??? To live in this military industrial complex means to cheat, lie and steal.

 

Isn't it? It's just a question of degrees and in how much you can get away with from the envious eyes of others who are trying to do the same-make money

 

Isn't there always an element of "well for you my dear sir I will not make any profit!?

 

The word is full of inebrities(sp?), those things that make Vaikuntha dealings impossible in the prison house of martya loka, the planet of death- EARTH.

 

Best thing is to offer everything to KRSNA 100%!

[AncientMariner 0]

 

With so much cheating going on in gov't, society and with people -how is it really possible to earn an ***"honest "***living??? To live in this military industrial complex means to cheat, lie and steal.

 

Isn't it? It's just a question of degrees and in how much you can get away with from the envious eyes of others who are trying to do the same-make money

 

Isn't there always an element of "well for you my dear sir I will not make any profit!?

 

The word is full of inebrities(sp?), those things that make Vaikuntha dealings impossible in the prison house of martya loka, the planet of death- EARTH.

 

Best thing is to offer everything to KRSNA 100%!

 

 

That's a nice sentiment but from everything I have read about the history of Iskcon I haven't seen much evidence that life in Iskcon is that much different than life in the military industrial complex. I hope I am wrong but I have read about a lot of lying, cheating, stealing and even worse within Iskcon. Until you can offer a proven alternative to the military industrial complex I am stuck with the devil I know so to speak.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Wealth and independence, are, obviously, relative to one's standard of living. If one is able to live off of savings doesn't have to work half-time or more to pay one's rent, that person is independently wealthy in my estimation, whether it's because they have great sums of money or modest sums of money and a modest lifestyle. Conversely, for someone like Michael Jackson, no amount of money is sufficient. A starlet divorcee might feel unduly constrained by receiving only a $30,000/month alimony payment.

 

Anyways, defining or redefining what "independently wealthy" means is sophistry, to be sure, when the real question is how shall we expend our precious energy?

 

This weekend, since I was rather agitated by our exchange, Theist-ji, I was discussing this matter with two senior Godbrothers, one of whom had tried and failed to make money day-trading (but had been mentored by a person who, he assured me, had been making $5,000/day during the tech boom). I wish I had been able to record the conversation, since he brought up many good points.

 

One good point: the stock market is a zero-sum game. That means, for every dollar a person "wins", another person has lost a dollar (or two people have lost $.50, etc.). So, the only way to make a profit is if somebody else has a loss. You are directly profiting from the loss of others.

 

Now, as others have speciously pointed out, all business involves risk (one could go so far as to call it "speculation"). However, while the farmer is taking on some risk (and actually breaking a sweat doing so), the farmer is also generating some actual benefit to society.

 

How is the day-trader benefiting society by taking the money of the less fortunate?

 

The other devotee clarified that $40 million number I had earlier given. Turns out it was on the Russian market and the value in dollars was closer to $10 million.

 

Still....that's $10 million of Srila Prabhupada's money that was lost on the stock market.

 

That's only one instance.

 

How many more have their been (Godbrother mentioned a sannyasi in our own sanga who lost most of his "nest egg")?

 

I liked the $40 million number because it is ironically almost the same amount as the Gurukuli court case judgement.

 

Now, while I might feel some legitimate material claim to my father's lost $140,000, I have never made any claim on the $40 million, despite being a Gurukula alumnus from that era. I felt like I was very well cared for in Gurukula and was in no way abused.

 

Because that $10 million was lost, how much greater is the burden of that court judgement on the "body of Srila Prabhupada"?

 

As for eveything belonging to Krishna, Theist Prabhu, the reminder is always welcome (since there is much forgetfullness), but the idea is not hard to grasp. My 6 and 4 year olds accept that (and Krishna being God) most readily. Even *they* remind me of that happy fact.

 

 

Not so by any means. I have no family to support, no car, no house I live in a rent controlled old apartment building, no health insurance except the county clinic for the poor, I am on the universal lifeline telephone program for th poor so we can call for help should an emergency arise, no social security checks from the government, barely enough money in my account to buy and sell a block of cheap stock. I live far below the poverty line and I might add I live in a fairly content mind since I don't desire to accumulate anything enough to be motivated to go work for it.

 

Got anymore silly little statements, phony apologies or would you care to just whine some more about how you have to pay back your student loan.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Hypnotherapy and massage are such wonderful healing arts, Theist-ji.

 

What a pity that you are not able to support yourself by those alone and have to resort to the moral equivalent of being a tanner of leather. No, actually, being a tanner of leather might be preferrable.

[Guruvani 0]

I think the "idealism" of not engaging in any speculative enterprise is fine and dandy if you have a viable communal economy founded on spiritual culture.

 

Unfortunatly, many "devotees" have found themselves out on the street and struggling in the secular world to make a buck and support themselves and their families they have created.

 

At that point it's "every man for himself" and "survival of the fittest", much like the law of the animal kingdom.

 

The idealistic Vaishnava culture is not a luxury than the majority of "devotees" in the western world can afford.

 

Actually, the majority of "devotees" live outside the sect in the secular world.

They have a right to survive and prosper by any means possible.

It's the law of the jungle!!

 

Maybe within an institution that is founded on idealism there is some need to stick to the "principles", but when the sect fails the majority and they end up on the streets of the world trying to survive, then why should they try to play by the rules that nobody else recognizes?

 

Without a proper sanctuary to shelter "devotees" and give them facility to live by the ideals they cherish, all we have is wishful thinking and make-believe.

 

That is why the failure of ISKCON is such a horrendous and terrible blow to the international society of devotees.

 

With the failure of ISKCON thousands of sincere devotees ended up on the streets of the world fending for themselves and they have a right to survive by any means possible.

 

In modern society if you don't have retirement, health coverage and real estate you have to live in poverty and scarcity in your old age.

 

My dream is to develop a retirement community for devotees here in Florida where we can come together and support each other in our golden years and help each other die with some semblance of Krishna consciousness.

 

I think a devotee reitrement community with absolutely NO GBC or "guru" interference is vital for the aging devotees in the United States.

 

We need to get past these juvenile tendencies and learn how to live together peacefully without some "guru" or GBC creating a disturbance.

 

Until then........... survival of the fittest is the rule.

[theist 1]

And how do you support yourself oh' pure one. You said you work for the government but declined to say in what capacity. Surely you do something usefull besides suck off the taxpayers money. BTW shouldn't you be working instead of posting. That makes you a thief of public funds in addition to being a self-righteous little twit.

 

And please quit calling me ji. Your mock humility and affection are rather sickening actually.

 

"Tanner of leather" huh? That coming from someone who no doubts drinks commercial milk killing calves in the process.

 

BTW what you are doing is called transference. You are still whinning about your dad losing 140,000 that you think should have went to you. Confront your daddy directly little boy and stop making others a surrogate for him.

 

Now are you reading this on the taxpayers time you naughty boy. Get back to work.

 

Another self righteous initiate of NM. They seem to be the majority.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Wow, Prabhu. Your true character is beginning to shine through. No, wait, your true *material* nature is showing. You remain, as you are almost fully-aware, sat-chit-ananda.

 

 

And how do you support yourself oh' pure one. You said you work for the government but declined to say in what capacity. Surely you do something usefull besides suck off the taxpayers money. BTW shouldn't you be working instead of posting. That makes you a thief of public funds in addition to being a self-righteous little twit.

 

If you want to make this a thread about me and divert attention from the actual topic at hand, then be my guest. I'm a vain and selfish person who enjoys talking about himself in addition to be a self-righteous little twit.

 

My title is "Systems Software Analyst", though I pride myself on not ever claiming something is outside of my job description. In addition to providing greater access to government (I helped develop an application to allow the public to listen to government meetings via the web in addition to greatly streamlining the process by which administrative staff generate web and printed agendas for these meetings).

 

In general, I'm in the "buck stops here" group of people in my organization. If an issue cannot be addressed by first or second-level support, one of the three folks in our group gets it.

 

As for posting on the taxpayer's dime--you'll find I post a lot less frequently than you do since I *am* often doing "real" work. I chose to take my boss on his word when he said, "We're more valuable for what we know than what we do".

 

So, yes, I post at the taxpayer's expense when there are no "burning fires" and my long-term projects can be delayed by procrastination. Would you rather I do my cyber-loafing on the sports trivia sites (rhetorical question)?

 

 

And please quit calling me ji. Your mock humility and affection are rather sickening actually.

 

OK, Prabhu. Whatever you like.

 

 

"Tanner of leather" huh? That coming from someone who no doubts drinks commercial milk killing calves in the process.

 

Annother assumption making an "ass" out of "u" and "me". I can't say I completely avoid conventional milk, but, in our home, we usually use rice, soy, or grain milks. We sometimes buy yogurt, but almost always "organic" yogurt.

 

By the way, it's my understanding that, in traditional India, the tanner would only use the hide of the dead animals...unlike the day-trader who takes his money out of the hands of the still-living dupe.

 

 

BTW what you are doing is called transference. You are still whinning about your dad losing 140,000 that you think should have went to you. Confront your daddy directly little boy and stop making others a surrogate for him.

 

And what you are doing is called psychoanalysis, for which I never paid you--neither did I solicit any free advice. Get a degree in it and you can make an "honest" living. Psychotherapy pays better than hypnotherapy the last time I checked.

 

 

Another self righteous initiate of NM. They seem to be the majority.

 

And now Vaishnava aparadha to boot (in relation to disciples of Sripad Narayan Maharaj).

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev-Goswami Maharaja is my shelter.

 

Unlike many of my humble and tolerant God-siblings, I most certainly *am* self-righteous (and even a hypocrite at times).

 

You may even see my spit-worthy face at San Francisco Ratha Yatra, Theist Prabhu. I beg for the mercy of your foot-dust on my head. For as fallen as you may be, you are certainly light years beyond me in conscious evolution.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Sorry, Guruvani Prabhu, but I won't grant you your Social Darwinism. I ranted about that on a recent thread of Suchandra-ji's.

 

"Survival of the fittest" is an utterly materialistic bastard child of Darwin's scientific theory. It ignores the all-too-natural (and mundane for that matter) qualities of cooperation, compassion, attraction, friendship, etc.

 

By your logic, if I get fired for posting on Audarya all day, I can just go down to the Safeway and get a job as a butcher, no?

 

Speaking of cooperation. If more aspiring Vaishnavas like ourselves could see past our petty differences and cooperate instead of engaging in a struggle with one another for survival, wouldn't we thrive?

 

Here in Santa Cruz, the disciples of Baba Hari Das own a number of well-established legitimate businesses.

 

I understand that the Internet Service Provider (ISP) Earthlink is owned by Scientologists (wouldn't it be safe to assume that the Scientologists applying for jobs there might get some special consideration?).

 

 

I think the "idealism" of not engaging in any speculative enterprise is fine and dandy if you have a viable communal economy founded on spiritual culture.

 

Unfortunatly, many "devotees" have found themselves out on the street and struggling in the secular world to make a buck and support themselves and their families they have created.

 

At that point it's "every man for himself" and "survival of the fittest", much like the law of the animal kingdom.

 

The idealistic Vaishnava culture is not a luxury than the majority of "devotees" in the western world can afford.

 

Actually, the majority of "devotees" live outside the sect in the secular world.

They have a right to survive and prosper by any means possible.

It's the law of the jungle!!

 

Maybe within an institution that is founded on idealism there is some need to stick to the "principles", but when the sect fails the majority and they end up on the streets of the world trying to survive, then why should they try to play by the rules that nobody else recognizes?

 

Without a proper sanctuary to shelter "devotees" and give them facility to live by the ideals they cherish, all we have is wishful thinking and make-believe.

 

That is why the failure of ISKCON is such a horrendous and terrible blow to the international society of devotees.

 

With the failure of ISKCON thousands of sincere devotees ended up on the streets of the world fending for themselves and they have a right to survive by any means possible.

 

In modern society if you don't have retirement, health coverage and real estate you have to live in poverty and scarcity in your old age.

 

My dream is to develop a retirement community for devotees here in Florida where we can come together and support each other in our golden years and help each other die with some semblance of Krishna consciousness.

 

I think a devotee reitrement community with absolutely NO GBC or "guru" interference is vital for the aging devotees in the United States.

 

We need to get past these juvenile tendencies and learn how to live together peacefully without some "guru" or GBC creating a disturbance.

 

Until then........... survival of the fittest is the rule.