The Rtvik Conception of Guru Parampara

[Guest guest]

 

These quotes simply prove my point. Nobody denies Srila Prabhupada is still living with us, but he is most certainly NOT PHYSICALLY present with us now. The parampara system refers to a physically present guru as the current link.

 

No, Srila Prabhupada never defined the disciplic succession in terms of physical bodies. He has defined the parampara as follows:

 

"Parampara means to hear the truth from the spiritual master."

(Room Conversation,20/12/76)

 

So clearly this "hearing the truth from the spiritual master" is continuing even today with Srila Prabhupada, in the same manner as it did from 1966 to 1977.

[Guest guest]

 

P.S. Srila Prabhupada already HAS signed a letter authorising ritvik inititations. It's the JULY 9th 1977 LETTER TO ALL GBCs AND TEMPLE PRESIDENTS. Maybe you missed it?

 

Maybe you missed his signed letter to Tusta Krsna as quoted above?

[Guest guest]

 

So clearly this "hearing the truth from the spiritual master" is continuing even today with Srila Prabhupada, in the same manner as it did from 1966 to 1977.

 

You mean you can actually ASK HIM QUESTIONS in the same manner as in the past? And record his reply? Asking questions (pariprasnena) is an essential process of obtaining knowledge from a guru, remember. Can you do that?

 

Only completely brainwashed people have to be reminded what a PHYSICAL presence is all about.

[Guest guest]

 

Maybe you missed his signed letter to Tusta Krsna as quoted above?

 

No sir, I did not miss it. But there's a difference between the two letters:

 

1) The letter to Tusta Krsna was a private letter to one individual who already had serious ambitions to be a guru IN THE PRESENCE of SP - as evidenced by all the letters to Tusta K. and others where SP is trying to CONTROL him and KEEP HIM IN Krishna consciousness. He had already stated in a letter that Tusta Krsna was "DEVIATING FROM THE PARAMPARA". Not exactly a qualification for becoming a diksa guru.

 

2) The July 9th, 1977 letter was an INSTITUTIONAL directive sent to the entire GBC and all TPs, clearly detailing the ritvik system of initiations for ISKCON, not just for the present, but "henceforward", and "particularly at that time when you are no longer with us".

[Guest guest]

Prabhu ... good point. Please continue. You're doing a good job of refuting the ritviks argument by quoting from Sastra and using good logic.

 

I like the way you present your arguments without resorting to personal insults & attacks, something I find lacking in the ritviks.

 

 

It is not for them that I write. It is for the new people who happen to read this thread. Ritvik lies and misrepresentations should not go unchallenged. Anybody can make up their own mind when they see both sides of the issue presented.

[Guest guest]

BhaktaTom prabhu,

 

Lowborn pr asks a very pertinent question ... if you think Srila Prabhupada is still accessible to you, why not just ask him the questions that plague these ritvik debates and get the answers? And while at it, why don't you record the answers for everybody.

 

I see this 'Srila Prabhupada still being present' as a peculiar theory. He is certainly present in his instructions but that cannot be interpreted to mean he is physically accessible. It doesn't make any sense.

 

 

No, Srila Prabhupada never defined the disciplic succession in terms of physical bodies. He has defined the parampara as follows:

 

"Parampara means to hear the truth from the spiritual master."

(Room Conversation,20/12/76)

 

So clearly this "hearing the truth from the spiritual master" is continuing even today with Srila Prabhupada, in the same manner as it did from 1966 to 1977.

[Guest guest]

 

You mean you can actually ASK HIM QUESTIONS in the same manner as in the past? And record his reply? Asking questions (pariprasnena) is an essential process of obtaining knowledge from a guru, remember. Can you do that?

 

Srila Prabhupada had at least 5000 initiated disciples. Most of them never, ever asked him a single question even while he WAS physically present. In this regard, we prefer to follow SP's instructions:

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

 

Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my books.

(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)

 

 

Only completely brainwashed people have to be reminded what a PHYSICAL presence is all about.

 

Sir, we prefer to follow SP's instructions on physical presence, not yours:

 

"Physical presence is IMMATERIAL. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life."

(Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

"Physical presence is NOT important."

(Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

"So we should associate by vibration, and NOT by the physical presence. That is real association."

(SP Lectures 68/08/18)

 

"Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration NOT physical presence. That is real association.

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, p. 57)

 

"Therefore, one must take advantage of the Vani, NOT the physical presence.

(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

 

" one has to associate with liberated persons NOT directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

(SB 3:31:48, purport )

[Guest guest]

 

BhaktaTom prabhu,

 

Lowborn pr asks a very pertinent question ... if you think Srila Prabhupada is still accessible to you, why not just ask him the questions that plague these ritvik debates and get the answers? And while at it, why don't you record the answers for everybody.

 

 

Dear Bhaktin Deborah

 

Srila Prabhupada has already answered all questions. In his July 9th 1977 letter, he has already given a signed directive for ritvik initiations in ISKCON. Therefore, everything you need to ask Srila Prabhupada has already been recorded:

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

 

Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...ANSWERS ARE THERE IN MY BOOKS."

(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)

 

"So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then ALL your questions will be answered."

(7/1/76)

 

"If it is possible to go to the temple, then take advantage of the temple. A temple is a place where by one is given the opportunity to render direct devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna. In conjunction with this you should always read my books daily and ALL your questions will be answered and you will have a firm basis of Krishna Consciousness. In this way your life will be perfect."

(22/11/74)

 

"Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically ALL questions will be answered."

(24/01/70)

 

"In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained FULLY so if there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop."

(22/11/74)

 

 

 

I see this 'Srila Prabhupada still being present' as a peculiar theory. He is certainly present in his instructions but that cannot be interpreted to mean he is physically accessible. It doesn't make any sense

 

We do not say that SP is physically present. We say he is physically absent. But is this physical absence important to serving SP? No, it is not. If it was, how is ANYONE on the planet right now, inquiring from, serving and surrendering to SP? Please refer to the quotes just posted where SP repeatedly states that physical presence is "IMMATERIAL", "NOT IMPORTANT" etc.

[Guest guest]

 

We do not say that SP is physically present.

 

YES YOU DO!

 

 

You have to go to a physical spiritual master, as opposed to Paramatma. Srila Prabhupada is such a physical spiritual master.

 

You just switch from one twisted quoted to another, lying your way around in circles. You cant even consistently defend your own twisted interpretations.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada had at least 5000 initiated disciples. Most of them never, ever asked him a single question even while he WAS physically present. In this regard, we prefer to follow SP's instructions:

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

 

Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my books.

(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)

 

 

Which one of Prabhupada's books describes your post-humous ritvik system theory? Which book answers the questions raised in this threads?

 

Qotes are nice, but they have to deliver pertinent answers.

[Guest guest]

 

No sir, I did not miss it. But there's a difference between the two letters:

 

1) The letter to Tusta Krsna was a private letter to one individual who already had serious ambitions to be a guru...

 

So, are you suggesting that Prabhupada lied when he explained the principles of disciplic succession to him?

 

Our disciplic succession ALWAYS follows these rules. Prabhupada was not a deviant - you ritviks are.

 

'Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.'

(Letter to Tusta Krsna, 2 Dec 75)

 

which parts of this quote do not represent the truth according to ritvikvada?

[Guest guest]

 

So, are you suggesting that Prabhupada lied when he explained the principles of disciplic succession to him?

 

 

No we are not suggesting any such thing. Prabhupada was simply encouraging a deviant disciple who was grossly in maya to at least stay in devotional service.

 

Are you suggesting that Prabhupada is authorising a deviant disciple who was so in maya that he wanted to initiate and recieve worship while Prabhupada was still on the planet to become a bonafide spiritual master?

 

By your comments it seems that you are, how absurd to even consider that. Tusta Krishna was not even following Prabhupada's instructions, therefore is not even qualified as a DISCIPLE let alone a guru. This is a common sense thing.

 

Do you really think that Prabhupada was authorising him to initiate?

 

A simple yes or no will be fine.

 

In any case an unpublished private letter cannot be used as evidence to terminate the Ritvik system established by Srila Prabhupada.

 

The only deviants here are those who wish to continue to disobey Prabhupada's clear instructions for a Ritvik system which was set up by Srila Prabhupada clearly in the July 9th Directive.

 

It is interesting that you refer to Ritviks as 'deviant' yet the Zonal Acharya system was a gross deviation along with the current bogus 'vote in a Guru by majority vote' system which is equally deviant.

 

Who are the real deviants?

[Guest guest]

 

I like the way you present your arguments without resorting to personal insults & attacks, something I find lacking in the ritviks.

 

Amazing, here Ritviks are being critisized by Deborah Pitts as making ad hominem personal attacks................while at the same time she makes the same ad hominem personal attack on the character of the Ritviks!!!

 

In other words she accuses us of making personal attacks.....by making.......wait for it.........a personal attack on us!!!!

 

Thats one for the book.

[Guest guest]

 

Very poor argument. By the same token, where is Srila Bhaktisidhanta's order to terminate the parampara system? Since he did not give such an order, Srila Prabhupada should never have intitated disciples, according to your logic.

 

Oh dear Deborah, you really are confused.

 

And your point about Bhaktisidhanta reveals your ever growing confusion.

 

Again you said,

where is Srila Bhaktisidhanta's order to terminate the parampara system? Since he did not give such an order, Srila Prabhupada should never have intitated disciples, according to your logic.

 

Did not give an order????? You seem to have missed this very clear order; "WAIT FOR THE SELF EFFULGIENT ACHARYA!!!!!!!!

 

Interesting to note that Prabhupada's Godbrothers disobeyed this instruction and started initiating which was the main cause of the destruction of the Gaudia Matha.

 

History has repeated itself, then they did not 'wait for the self effulgient acharya' and disobeyed Srila Bhaktisidhanta by all claiming to be the next acharya's. Now the GBC have disobeyed the Authorised Ritvik system and are claiming to be the next acharya's.

 

PYRAMID HOUSE CONFESSIONS December 3rd 1980

"Actually Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus."

[suchandra 1]

 

Lowborn prabhu .... the ritviks have made up their mind. No matter how much you try, they will only see & hear what they want to . If I were you, I'd just let it go. No point arguing.

 

Thanks Deborah for telling what is good and what is bad but sometimes devotees also ask for scriptural reverence. Letter below by Srila Prabhupada explains that a spiritual master must be a liberated person who doesn't fall down from that position although non-liberated Vaishnavas can also become spiritual master provided they follow strictly.

However, Prabhupada wrote that letter in 1968 but did not repeat that his disciples were qualified to be diksa-gurus in 1977 and considered them as liberated personalities or at least as so much advanced to not fall down again. The high number of fallen sannyasis and leaders between 1970-1977 told its own tale and the opposite happened, Prabhupada wanted to stop giving sannyas. Why should he say to stop giving sannyas, when on the other hand he would appoint diksa-gurus? Can you see that contradiction? Diksa-gurus who can fall down, but stop giving sannyas? Till 1977 so many sannyasis were fallen down because they couldnt follow the rules of the disciplic succession even as sannyasis what to speak as full-fledged diksa-gurus and it should be clear that the qualification for being spiritual master even as a non-liberated devotee wasnt there in anybody, otherwise Prabhupada would have mentioned. Too many of the leaders/sannyasis failed, why should Prabhupada out of a sudden have taken up the position of such a high-risk decision when it comes to the most important part of a religious movement: Do the leaders live up to what they promise or does the movement end in a tragedy of losing its spiritual potency? No genuine acarya would play such a risk with his global movement for saving humanity.

 

 

New York,

 

My Dear Janardana,

 

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated April 12, and postdated on April 24, 1968, with enclosure of letter from Kirtanananda Swami dated April 7, 1968.

 

I am so glad to learn that your examination in M.A. is successful, and I hope very soon you will have your Ph.D. degrees, both titles engaged in the service of the Lord. There are four things desirable in this material world, namely, good parentage, sumptuous wealth, sufficient education, and good beauty. These things are sometimes impediments in the service of the Lord because such persons with great parentage, wealth, etc., becomes materially puffed up, and thus deviates from Krishna Consciousness.

 

But when they are employed in the service of the Lord, their value becomes many more times greater. Just like zero has no value, but when zero is placed on right side of one, the value of zero enhances to 10 times; similarly, our life, wealth, intelligence, and words become 100 times 100 greater and greater if they are employed in the service of the Lord.

 

I shall always pray to Krishna that you may come out a successful and eminent scholar so that your writings and thoughts may be seriously taken by the mundane wranglers. Our only business is to present Krishna Consciousness to the ignorant mass of people, and if such people agree to hear in consideration of our important position in the material world, it is a great opportunity to place our submission, and thereby our mission is fulfilled.

 

Acaryas in the disciplic succession of Lord Caitanya teach us that we shall try to place the message of Lord Caitanya very humbly to the people in general and that will make us successful in our service to the Lord. I sincerely bless you that your future hopes to present Krishna Consciousness in terms of French custom may be crowned with success.

 

Regarding the action of B: We shall discuss the matter when we meet. For the present, you may know that this gentleman is very much materially ambitious. He wants to utilize Krishna Consciousness for his material name and fame. Sometimes he greatly offended our Guru Maharaja, and it so happened that at the last stage, practically Guru Maharaja rejected him. And the result, we can find that instead of becoming a great preacher of Krishna Consciousness, this gentleman has become artificially a head of a mundane institution.

 

To become a very important man in the mundane estimation is not success in Krishna Consciousness. He was first deputed by my Guru Maharaja, along with our late God Brother, to open a missionary center in London, and they stayed there for 3 years, but didn't make any appreciable advance. Except that spent enormous money of my Guru Maharaja, and later on they were called back to India.

 

So that is a great history; it is not possible to say everything in this letter, but for the present, be satisfied with these words, and later we shall talk more and more. On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krishna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities.

 

The statements of Thakura Bhaktivinode are as good as scriptures because he is liberated person. Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such eternal associates of the Lord; but anyone who follows the principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above mentioned group. The gurus from nature's study are accepted as such on the principle that an elevated person in Krishna Consciousness does not accept anyone as disciple, but he accepts everyone as expansion of his guru.

 

That is very high position, called Maha-bhagavata. Just like Radharani, sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand devotion of Krishna. A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession.

 

It is the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a certain group or caste, are called hellish. Your question about B in relation with his disciple is very intelligent and intricate, and we shall discuss at long when we meet.

 

Regarding Kirtanananda's letter, I may inform you that I always think of him and pray to Krishna for his good sense. That is my duty. Anyone who comes to me for my help or wants advance in Krishna Consciousness, and whom I initiate and accept as my disciple, I must pray for him and his welfare always. So Kirtanananda personally served me, especially during my illness, which I always remember. But because somehow or other he has misunderstood our activities that does not mean that I am no longer his well wisher.

 

I write at the end of my letters to my disciples, "Your ever well-wisher", and as such, I cannot become otherwise than being ever well-wisher of my disciples, even though he may leave me. So I was praying to Krishna that He may save Kirtanananda from his misunderstanding and if ever he chanted Hare Krishna at least once in sincere heart, I am sure Krishna would not allow him to go out of his influence. Therefore, I believe that he can never forget the Form of Krishna, neither he can deny His Personality.

 

It is good news that he is trying to establish a new Vrindaban, which I suggested through Hayagriva Brahmacari, and if he is successful, in his attempt, certainly it will be considered a great benediction upon him by Lord Krishna. When I offered him Sannyas, I expected such great achievements through him and if Krishna desires, he will come out successful in his great attempt.

 

Yes, I expressed my desire to go there through Hayagriva Brahmacari, and if I am invited, to go there, by Kirtanananda Swami, it will be my great pleasure to see the place and enjoy his company.

 

On the first of May I am proceeding to Boston. Last night we had a very nice meeting at Temple University at Philadelphia, and there were nice kirtanas and speeches, and questions and answers from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. They paid us $150.00 for transportation charges and my lecture fees, and on the 30th of April we are going to hold similar meeting in Long Island, at the State University of New York, at Stoney Brook. They also have promised to pay us $200.00.

 

Similar meetings were held in different parts of San Francisco and Los Angeles, when I was there. So there is great possibility of spreading our Krishna Conscious movement, and if we work conjointly, with serious sincerity, we are sure to come out successful in this great adventure.

 

I expected to meet you here in New York by this time, but I do not see any indication in your letter under reply. Anyway on receipt of your letter I am very much satisfied and I shall be glad to hear from you I think at Boston.

 

Hoping you are well.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[Guest guest]

 

No we are not suggesting any such thing. Prabhupada was simply encouraging a deviant disciple who was grossly in maya to at least stay in devotional service.

 

Are you suggesting that Prabhupada is authorising a deviant disciple who was so in maya that he wanted to initiate and recieve worship while Prabhupada was still on the planet to become a bonafide spiritual master?

 

Did I say anything about Tusta Krsna in my posts? No, because his qualifications or lack thereof are IRRELEVANT.

 

Srila Prabhupada simply explains the law of disciplic succession:

 

'Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.'

 

These are UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLES of parampara, accepted and practiced by ALL authorized Vaishnava sampradayas since time immemorial. You say Prabhupada rejected these principles and introduced a ritvik system to be continued for the next 10,000 years. I say you are mistaken and the basic law of disciplic succession still stands as proven by Prabhupada himself in the above quote.

 

AFTER DISAPPEARANCE OF A GURU ANY OF HIS QUALIFIED DISCIPLES MAY ACCEPT DISCIPLES AND GIVE THEM DIKSA MANTRAS

[Guest guest]

Prabhu ... "Back to Prabhupada'.

 

Read that magazine, if you haven't already. You'll know what I mean.

 

 

Amazing, here Ritviks are being critisized by Deborah Pitts as making ad hominem personal attacks................while at the same time she makes the same ad hominem personal attack on the character of the Ritviks!!!

 

In other words she accuses us of making personal attacks.....by making.......wait for it.........a personal attack on us!!!!

 

Thats one for the book.

[Guest guest]

 

.

AFTER DISAPPEARANCE OF A GURU ANY OF HIS QUALIFIED DISCIPLES MAY ACCEPT DISCIPLES AND GIVE THEM DIKSA MANTRAS

 

Is this statement comming from Srila Prabhupada or is it your own speculation?

 

What does Prabhupada have to say againced your speculation;..................

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is AUTHORISED BY HIS PREDECESSOR SPIRITUAL MASTER. This is called diksa-vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

"When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru."

(C.c. Madhya, 24.330, purport)

 

To simply say that anyone who is qualified can initiate is your own mental concoction, there must be AUTHORISATION by the predecassor Guru to do so. Therefore your statement is false and againced Prabhupada's clear instructions.

 

For a disciple to become Guru he must be;

 

a) On the topmost platform of devotional service (maha bhagavata)

 

b) Authorised by a clear order from the previous Guru.

 

The GBC have admitted that many Guru's in Iskcon are not on the uttama platform and secondly they were given no instruction to initiate.

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhu ... "Back to Prabhupada'.

 

Read that magazine, if you haven't already. You'll know what I mean.

 

With all due respect you are confused again Mataji, please stay focused.

 

My point was .....now please be attentive.....you claim that Ritviks have bad characters and just just criticise, but that in itself is a a criticism by your good self. Therefore the height of hypocricy.

 

If you claim that such tactics should not be used, then why do you use the same tactics yourself instead of just debating the subect at hand?

 

And as for your comments on Back to Prabhupada being just criticism that is simply not true. In BTP the bogus Guru's are being exposed for their criminal behaviour so that their cheating will not remain hidden. This is completely in line with Prabhupada's clear instructions.

 

"If a man is a thief and if PEOPLE ARE WARNED THAT HE IS A THIEF THAT IS THE TRUTH. Although sometimes the truth is UNPALATABLE, one should NOT REFRAIN FROM SPEAKING IT"

(Bhagavada-gita As It Is, 10:4-5, purport.

[Guest guest]

 

Is this statement comming from Srila Prabhupada or is it your own speculation?

 

Did you read the quote? Which part of it do you not understand?

 

This is the way things have always been in all 4 sampradayas and Srila Prabhupada follows it as well.

[Guest guest]

 

Did you read the quote? Which part of it do you not understand?

 

I understood the quote you posted, however you did not understand the quotes I posted. If you did you would not have made this highly speculative statement:

 

"AFTER DISAPPEARANCE OF A GURU ANY OF HIS QUALIFIED DISCIPLES MAY ACCEPT DISCIPLES AND GIVE THEM DIKSA MANTRAS"

 

That is bogus as Prabhupada said that 'authorisation' must be given, not that anyone can just do so after disappearance of previous acharya.

 

 

This is the way things have always been in all 4 sampradayas and Srila Prabhupada follows it as well.

 

Well if this 'plain vanilla' understanding of the traditional parampara system is so clear and unambiguous, why is it that Prabhupada's leading men were unsure about this very issue back in 1977

 

 

ROOM CONVERSATION. Vrindavana, May 28th, 1977

 

Satsvarupa: "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiations will be conducted."

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya."

 

Notice that when Prabhupada is asked the clear question regarding POST DEPARTURE.......Prabhupada answers clearly OFFICIATING ACHARYA SYSTEM!

 

Stop falling for the Guru hoax and come back to the light, back to Prabhupada, the real Diksa Guru.

[Guest guest]

 

"AFTER DISAPPEARANCE OF A GURU ANY OF HIS QUALIFIED DISCIPLES MAY ACCEPT DISCIPLES AND GIVE THEM DIKSA MANTRAS"

 

That is bogus as Prabhupada said that 'authorisation' must be given, not that anyone can just do so after disappearance of previous acharya.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said many times he wants ALL of his disciples to become qualified gurus. That is a very clear authorization. Read it again:

 

"I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy."

 

Becoming a bonafide guru makes Prabhupada and Krsna very happy. Becoming a ritvik deviant makes Prabhupada very dissappointed.

[suchandra 1]

 

Becoming a bonafide guru makes Prabhupada and Krsna very happy. Becoming a ritvik deviant makes Prabhupada very dissappointed.

 

Thanks lowborn for mentioning Prabhupada and trying to please him. Since there seems to be a nebulosity even within ISKCON (read below) about who is a bonafide spiritual master and who is not, raises this question, is according your understanding for example Danurdhara Swami a bonafide guru who makes Prabhupada very happy or as published today at chakra.org, rather not?

 

GBC Behaviors Unclear

 

by Name withheld by request

Posted April 28, 2007 at chakra.org

 

It has been 12 years since the GBC have been asked to resolve this Dhanurdhara issue, but they still have not. Ironically, they could have taken care of this in 1996 and avoided the lawsuit.

Most disturbing was the letter of apology to Dhanurdhara -- the abuser. Why did the GBC codify the apology to Dhanurdhara and his abuse victims simultaneously in a public resolution? Has this ever been done in the history of mankind? Does this qualify as normal behavior? Does the Catholic Church or any other religion behave this way? Didn't any of the GBC leaders realize how bad and how out-of-touch it would make them look?

Is it true that Dhanurdhara is initiating in Israel "under the radar" and that he leads large parikrams in Vrndavana? And why does Jayadvaita Swami have this in his biography that he sends to the temples:

"In 1985 and 1986, he spent a year and a half traveling with a party of pilgrims on pada-yatra, a journey on foot, through various states of India, stopping in a different town or village every night. In 1987, along with Dhanurdhara Swami and Bhurijana Dasa, he co-founded the Vrindaban Institute for Higher Education. Since 1988 he has served as a director of Srila Prabhupada's publishing house, the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust.

"From 1991 through most of 1998 he served as editor-in-chief of Back to Godhead magazine, for which he had been an assistant editor for several years. Recently he served as editor for a three-volume translation and commentary for </I>Sri Brhad-bhagavatamrta</I>, a sixteenth-century Sanskrit philosophical and devotional work."

The only people mentioned in this bio, besides Srila Prabhupada, are both child abusers. I am assuming that this is an oversight. Another Maharaja, during his lecture, talked about the nice preaching Dhanurdhara was doing. My congregation is confused about Dhanurdhara.On the one hand the GBC likes and respects him. On the other hand, the gurukulis would like him out of his position (officially and unofficially).

The GBC seems to have written the gurukulis off, hoping perhaps that the "new blood" will not have the same issues with Dhanurdhara. In fact many new bhaktas have no idea what Dhanurdhara has done and think that the gurukulis are troublemakers who are in maya.

To recap, this is what Dhanurdhara has done in the past, according to the Turley lawsuit testimony:

 

1. He broke a child's nose and repeatedly administered beating for years; unfortunately, the victim ended up committing suicide.
   
2. He broke a child's ribs.
   
3. He repeatedly beat children -- sometimes until they passed out.
   
4. He threw children into marble walls and, when they hit the ground, repeatedly kicked them.
   
5. He lifted children up by the ears -- sometimes causing physical trauma.
   
6. He boxed children's ears with closed fists, making his students' ears bleed.
   
7. He repeatedly hired sexual child molesters.
   
8. He ignored pleas from the older children to get rid of the child molesters.
   
9. He allowed the ex-guru Bhavananda to inappropriately go into the shower with children and "clean" them.
   
10. He would ignore the screams of children being raped by their teachers.
    
11. He refused to terminate a teacher who knocked a child's front teeth out.
    
12. He exhibited sadistic, antisocial behavior with the students.

In most of the world, they might describe this type of behavior as torture, but in ISKCON it is described as karma. While I am sure Bhanu prabhu is a nice devotee, I would request that the chairman revise and extend his remarks to clarify the situation.

What is Dhanurdhara's official and unofficial role in ISKCON? Is he still a guru? Does he still have disciples? Will he have a Samadhi? What is his punishment for not adhering to the restrictions? Who is the GBC contact person, if devotees observe Dhanurdhara trolling for disciples?

Who will protect the new devotees unaware of this violent past from Dhanurdhara's advances? If he is initiating, has disciples and is welcome in ISKCON (per the GBC resolution), it means that he is an initiating guru in good standing in ISKCON.

Finally, why is he encouraging this man to contact his abuse victims? Did he ask them if that is what they wanted? The last time Dhanurdhara and his abuse victim met in Mayapura, it ended up badly for both parties. I look forward to a response.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada said many times he wants ALL of his disciples to become qualified gurus. That is a very clear authorization. Read it again:

 

"I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy."

 

Becoming a bonafide guru makes Prabhupada and Krsna very happy. Becoming a ritvik deviant makes Prabhupada very dissappointed.

 

Prabhu you're very confused. Firstly this is not an order, but simply Prabhupada's desire for his disciples to spread Krishna consciousness. There is also no evidence that Prabhupada is refering to Diksa, so this quote can equally be talking about siksa Guru.

 

You really think this is the actual authorisation? Well I am sorry but you are in great illusion. This conversation took place years after your quote and two things are clear;

 

1. None of Prabhupada's disciples are qualified to become Diksa Guru's in 1977.

 

2. The order still had not been given in 1977 (and of course was never given)

 

ROOM CONVERSATION - APRIL 22, 1977, BOMBAY

 

Srila Prabhupada: "What is the use of producing some rascal guru?"

 

Tamala Krishna: "Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's a clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible."

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Hmm!"

 

Tamala Krishna: "...but not now."

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru, 'Now you become acarya. You become authorised.' I AM WAITING FOR THAT.You become, all, acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete."

 

Prabhupada saying clearly that he is still waiting to give the order as late as 1977 proves that your in quote could not possibly be the order to do so.

 

Why do you keep on twisting and turning?

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru, 'Now you become acarya. You become authorised.' I AM WAITING FOR THAT.You become, all, acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete."

 

Prabhupada saying clearly that he is still waiting to give the order as late as 1977 proves that your in quote could not possibly be the order to do so.

 

 

Both of these quotes PROVE WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that Srila Prabhupada wanted to continue a traditional Vaishnava system of disciplic succession, and not some concocted ritvik arrangement.

 

Why did he NOT say here: "Everybody in the future will be my disciple for 10,000 years?" Because that would be completely bogus. He never said anything like that in his entire life.

 

When he says "You become, all, acarya. I retire completely" - he is obviously talking about retiring while still with us, and allowing his disciples to initiate while he is still physically present.That is what the word "retire" indicates.