Preaching

[cbrahma 0]

I am very conflicted on this topic. For one preaching has been exclusively interpreted to mean book distribution by the few ISKCON temple authorities that are still engaged in it.

 

When those who read these books show up at a temple, at least the temple I frequented that distributed books, they are pretty much ignored one-on-one. There are exceptions of course, depending on the demographics of the person inquiring compared to the devotee he/she is inquiring from.

If they are both Indian/young etc...there will be a rapport established.

But this obviously is a bodily conditioned relationship.

 

In fact I've known very dedicated aspirants who follow the entire saddhana

who are treated as invisible, unless of course they accidently do something wrong.

 

I still go to the temple restaurant and darshan of the deities.

I was disturbed yesterday when I went because the temple president had assembled everybody in the temple room to read off the holiday marathon scores. The cheering and celebration was exactly like a corporate Marketing Department plugging their top sales people, awards and gifts included.

The obvious message, was , the more money you bring in , the more advanced and celebrated you are.

 

The rhetoric about 'pleasing Prabhupada and serving Prabhupada's devotees' was the most disturbing, basically because it was a sham.

These same advanced devotees will walk right by some guest (barring similar demographics) as though he/she were invisible. No desire to connect and 'preach' where money and/or status is not the outcome.

 

I saw a movie about World War 2 afterwards and the military dynamics were so similar it was scary.

[Guruvani 0]

I wonder myself how much of this "ISKCON" tradition was simply the brainchild and product of the senior disciples who were all in competition with each other to try and attain as much position, prestige and power as possible.

 

I remember in L.A. back in 1975 when there were dozens and dozens of devotees walking around the temple in Santa Claus outifts getting ready to go out on the "Christmas marathon".

It was something right out of a Hollywood comedy flick.

Then I was dumped off in Burbank to collect money and pass out candy canes.

 

I wonder that if the leading devotees of ISKCON were more yogic, educated and dignified that ISKCON could have developed differently and all this "scamkirtan" would never have become a part of the ISKCON culture.

 

That is why I "blooped" from L.A. to go to the farm in Tennessee because I wanted a more earthy, grounded, simple and natural lifestyle than this artificial scamkirtan culture of the big city temples.

 

I think that a lot of the ISKCON character that we see today is the product of the ex-druggies, hippies and riiff-raff street people who came to power in ISKCON and developed this "scamkirtan" system of ISKCON.

 

Maybe a more educated and mainstream ISKCON membership would have developed ISKCON in a more dignified manner and a lot of these "scamkirtan" tactics would never have been employed.

 

In a lot of ways, Srila Prabhupada lost control of how ISKCON developed as these old hippies took over and started employing all sorts of scams and schemes for collecting money and dumping books on people who a lot of times would just toss them in the nearest trash can.

 

Krishna consciousness should be presented as a yoga system, not a fanatical cult of scammers and schemers who practice all sorts of deception and trickery upon the innocent public.

 

I certainly have no appreciation for this old scamkirtan system that ISKCON seems to be unable to get away from.

 

Showing working people how they can have spiritual life and be functioning members of society seems to have been lost on ISKCON.

 

Join the cult and adopt the scamkirtan lifestyle seems to be the message.

[Guest guest]

 

The obvious message, was , the more money you bring in , the more advanced and celebrated you are.

That is only showing your own frame of mind. There is no mention of how much money was brought in, only how many books was distributed. Devotees always have a marathon around Christmas to distribute as many of Prabhupada's books as possible, usually staying out very late to do so. What were you doing during that time? Telling every body how you were going back to your Christian faith. So what did you do for Jesus, don't be modest, let every one know.

[cbrahma 0]

I was there. Laksmi points convert to $$$ and carry a lot of weight in the evaluation. In fact there are devotees who are terminated from distribution because they don't bring in enough.

Prabhupada's books, of course. Prabhupada's ISKCON. He is constantly being exploited as an icon for all sorts of reasons and in this case for the material survival of the temple. I've already pointed to the double mentality of NOT preaching one on one under ordinary circumstances.

I was singing the tenor section in my church choir during Christmas services, thank you very much.

 

 

That is only showing your own frame of mind. There is no mention of how much money was brought in, only how many books was distributed. Devotees always have a marathon around Christmas to distribute as many of Prabhupada's books as possible, usually staying out very late to do so. What were you doing during that time? Telling every body how you were going back to your Christian faith. So what did you do for Jesus, don't be modest, let every one know.

[Beggar 0]

 

I was disturbed yesterday when I went because the temple president had assembled everybody in the temple room to read off the holiday marathon scores. The cheering and celebration was exactly like a corporate Marketing Department plugging their top sales people, awards and gifts included.

The obvious message, was , the more money you bring in , the more advanced and celebrated you are.

 

I had the exact same experience. I was a fringy living outside in Berkeley California ISKCON temple. One morning I woke up very early and chanted some rounds and then drove over to the temple to catch the last half of the morning program. The Bhagavatam class was cut short so there would be enough time to announce the "Sankirtan Scores". Suddenly the temple president who was giving the class transformed into some kind of TV game show host and announce the "Lakshmi point" scores. (Lakshmi points=dollars). The whole thing seemed so "Corporate America" and like you did I wondered how it had now come to this?

There were even drum rolls on the mrdangas and the kartals clanged as the scores were announced. I thought it was strange that the leading Lakshmi point collecters were young attractive women and that those women were all members of what was called "Jiva's Party". Actually I had heard rumors that Jiva's party was really quite a party. I mean I had to bloop to party but he didn't. Any way I thought I was in The Twilight Zone, I couldn't believe it was really happening; It was just so surreal. One of the reasons I woke up and chanted and went to the temple was that I was feeling very guilty about being in Maya. I felt that I was about to undergo some kind of strong test since Srila Prabhupada had left this world about 6 or 7 weeks before. Yes, my Twighlight Zone experience at the Berkeley ISKCON temple was during the very end of December 1977.

[Beggar 0]

 

In a lot of ways, Srila Prabhupada lost control of how ISKCON developed as these old hippies took over and started employing all sorts of scams and schemes for collecting money and dumping books on people who a lot of times would just toss them in the nearest trash can.

 

 

In 1971 I read that a university study showed that ISKCON devotees were the most educated amongst all alternative religions in America. In 1980 a similar study showed that amongst all alternative religious groups in America ISKCON devotees were the least educated. Beginning in 1973 there was a trend to stop preaching at schools and colleges and scam people at Airports and other public facilities to give money and take books that they would often just throw away. By '75 that trend was fully established as the main way ISKCON would approach the public.

[theist 1]

 

In 1971 I read that a university study showed that ISKCON devotees were the most educated amongst all alternative religions in America. In 1980 a similar study showed that amongst all alternative religious groups in America ISKCON devotees were the least educated. Beginning in 1973 there was a trend to stop preaching at schools and colleges and scam people at Airports and other public facilities to give money and take books that they would often just throw away. By '75 that trend was fully established as the main way ISKCON would approach the public.

 

Yes lots of smart people in Iskcon no doubt. I remember in 1973 the temple in my town stopped the daily street chanting, 6 hours a day everyday, and gave everyone a bookbag and a corner. I had already long since blooped from temple life but I still went out everyday with the chanting party so this was a major blow to me. I was unproductive as a bookseller as I would inevitably get in long conversations with the interesting people I would meet.

 

It is not the education level I think so much as the misuse of that intelligence combined with the inability to relate to ordinary folks as cbrahma brought out.

 

A "preacher" should have some realization that the people being "preached" to are fellow spiritsouls and thus in the most real sense brothers and sisters and we are all united in Krsna. That should be appreciated by the "preacher" or else what the hell is he preaching about? Memorizing the books and repeating it impersonally is a sign of being stuck on the intellectual plane and still estranged from the platform of the soul and Supreme soul.

 

Krsna consciousness is personalism. That means soul to soul as well as soul to Supersoul. Imitation personalism will not suffice. It will not touch the actual living being. More bhakti to balance out the jnana.

 

We need to avoid the false ego trip of us devotee's on this side and those karmis on that side. This type of mind set is helpful in the beginning as one develops a preferential taste for devotional association, but it is not the final goal by any means.

 

The leaders in Krsna consciousness are the ones that are coming into this type of realization.

 

Equal souls are seen when we look past the costums of ahakara. :kick:

 

 

Even those that use the reflection of the knowledge of Krsna consciousness for worldly gain.

 

 

:namaskar:We offer our respectful obeisances unto those souls and the Supreme soul, the Soul of all souls, who lives within all. Namaste.

[cbrahma 0]

 

The leaders in Krsna consciousness are the ones that are coming into this type of realization.

 

 

What type would that be? Personal or impersonal?

 

 

TEXT 18

 

 

vidya-vinaya-sampanne

brahmane gavi hastini

suni caiva sva-pake ca

panditah sama-darsinah

SYNONYMS

 

vidya--education; vinaya--gentleness; sampanne--fully equipped; brahmane--in the brahmana; gavi--in the cow; hastini--in the elephant; suni--in the dog; ca--and; eva--certainly; sva-pake--in the dog-eater (the outcaste); ca--respectively; panditah--those who are so wise; sama-darsinah--do see with equal vision.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

The humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste].

 

 

PURPORT

 

A Krsna conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brahmana and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, a cow, or an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist. This is due to their relationship to the Supreme, for the Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion as Paramatma, is present in everyone's heart. Such an understanding of the Supreme is real knowledge. As far as the bodies are concerned in different castes or different species of life, the Lord is equally kind to everyone because He treats every living being as a friend yet maintains Himself as Paramatma regardless of the circumstances of the living entities. The Lord as Paramatma is present both in the outcaste and in the brahmana, although the body of a brahmana and that of an outcaste are not the same. The bodies are material productions of different modes of material nature, but the soul and the Supersoul within the body are of the same spiritual quality. The similarity in the quality of the soul and the Supersoul, however, does not make them equal in quantity, for the individual soul is present only in that particular body whereas the Paramatma is present in each and every body. A Krsna conscious person has full knowledge of this, and therefore he is truly learned and has equal vision. The similar characteristics of the soul and Supersoul are that they are both conscious, eternal and blissful. But the difference is that the individual soul is conscious within the limited jurisdiction of the body, whereas the Supersoul is conscious of all bodies. The Supersoul is present in all bodies without distinction.

 

 

[theist 1]

 

What type would that be? Personal or impersonal?

 

 

 

 

Personal of course.

 

Thanks for that verse and purport.

[cbrahma 0]

You think the leaders (ISKCON) have realized the personalistic aspect???

 

 

Personal of course.

 

Thanks for that verse and purport.

[theist 1]

 

You think the leaders (ISKCON) have realized the personalistic aspect???

 

I said the leaders in Krsna conciousness. I said nothing about Iskcon. I don't have the same Iskcon framed context that you do. I was talking about real leaders are those with the realization! It's the realization that makes one a leader and not some artifical position as leader of a religious organization or some matha.

[cbrahma 0]

I was talking about a marathon in the ISKCON temple so I thought those were the leaders you were referring to. I am making a deliberate effort to break out of the fanatical lockstep with ISKCON which at this point is not Prabhupada's ISKCON as they like to frame it.

 

 

I said the leaders in Krsna conciousness. I said nothing about Iskcon. I don't have the same Iskcon framed context that you do. I was talking about real leaders are those with the realization! It's the realization that makes one a leader and not some artifical position as leader of a religious organization or some matha.

[theist 1]

 

I was talking about a marathon in the ISKCON temple so I thought those were the leaders you were referring to. I am making a deliberate effort to break out of the fanatical lockstep with ISKCON which at this point is not Prabhupada's ISKCON as they like to frame it.

I hear you bro. It gets drilled into people that "Iskcon is Prabhupada" and it becomes a type of filter over our eyes. You are sincere seeker and will not be able to rest in peace with anything short of reality. Our process is based on questioning authority and you do that.

 

When I read Srila Prabhupada I hear something very different. His vision of Krsna consciousness is so broad, expansive and inclusive. But if we are desiring to control others and if we are conditioned to being controlled by those without that vision of Krsna consciousness then we will never get beyond their narrow vision.

 

One who has that broad vision has no desire to control others. He knows Krsna is in control and he feels no compulsion to compete with Him.

[Guest guest]

Why not view life as whenever we see crazy things it is the gods are testing us and they are disguised as those devotees?

 

First just go to a temple for this: a) darshan of Deities, b) darshan of tulasi, c) darshan of Prabhupada. Why would you go there for any other reason?

 

Then you see anything crazy you remind yourself: this is a god disguised as a neophyte devotee in the offensive stage. So I will do my pranam from a distance to them. I just come here for darshan then I leave.

 

Also you could try going there when the crazy things are not schedule to happen.

 

Just realize that they are neophytes, kanishtha adhikaris. They are like at kindergarten level of spiritual understanding. So how do you engage with kindergarten kid? Smile at them.

 

A big kid doesn't say "Aww you guys are just in kindergarten! Look what you are learning ABC!!!" Maybe a second grader would do that or a really immature fifth grader.

 

But if you are old enough to start noticing that some people are in kindergarten level then now you need to just focus on getting straight As in your curriculum and if you are really diligent you focus on taking extra prep courses so you can get into private school. You don't waste your time worrying about what the kindergarten kids are up to and especially how nasty is the grade K program offered to kids whose parents can only afford the generic public school.

[cbrahma 0]

Thank you for your wise counsel. I will follow it. There is another reason one might go. For classes in scripture. I just came from there. The same lecturer that used to call me prabhu is now calling me 'sir' in a cold formal way. Politics at every stage.

 

 

 

Why not view life as whenever we see crazy things it is the gods are testing us and they are disguised as those devotees?

 

First just go to a temple for this: a) darshan of Deities, b) darshan of tulasi, c) darshan of Prabhupada. Why would you go there for any other reason?

 

Then you see anything crazy you remind yourself: this is a god disguised as a neophyte devotee in the offensive stage. So I will do my pranam from a distance to them. I just come here for darshan then I leave.

 

Also you could try going there when the crazy things are not schedule to happen.

 

Just realize that they are neophytes, kanishtha adhikaris. They are like at kindergarten level of spiritual understanding. So how do you engage with kindergarten kid? Smile at them.

 

A big kid doesn't say "Aww you guys are just in kindergarten! Look what you are learning ABC!!!" Maybe a second grader would do that or a really immature fifth grader.

 

But if you are old enough to start noticing that some people are in kindergarten level then now you need to just focus on getting straight As in your curriculum and if you are really diligent you focus on taking extra prep courses so you can get into private school. You don't waste your time worrying about what the kindergarten kids are up to and especially how nasty is the grade K program offered to kids whose parents can only afford the generic public school.

[theist 1]

 

Thank you for your wise counsel. I will follow it. There is another reason one might go. For classes in scripture. I just came from there. The same lecturer that used to call me prabhu is now calling me 'sir' in a cold formal way. Politics at every stage.

 

Why would you want to hear from this person? Better listen to a Prabhupada taped lecture with a couple or more like minded people in your living room. Hearing is the quickest way to gain enlightenment and the quickest way to be mislead. Srila Prabhupada said,"he who you hear from is your guru."

[Guest guest]

The classes are iffy, because you don't know who is scheduled to speak. As such, you don't know who you will be listening to. And the person might say some things that won't exactly be helping your spiritual life. Then if you react negatively to that according to their estimation even with just your body language then soon you will be persona non grata there.

 

I would stick with the things that are safe: getting the darshan of the Deities at Mangala Arotik at 4:30am. Bowing, singing to, circumambulating, and praying to tulasi during the Tulasi Puja. Greeting the Deities. The Noon Arotik and Waking Up the Deities After Their Nap Arotik at 4pm. The Gaura Arotik at 6pm. The Putting the Deities to Bed Arotik at 9pm. The Prabhupada Puja in the AM. The Feast Days and Holy Days with the Abhisekhas and Homa Yajnas.

 

Just quietly slip out before the classes start and go chant your rounds by tulasi or take a nap in your car or go look in the gift shop. The kinds of people who are usually okay to hear class from are any new neophyte bhakta or bhaktin who is not all puffed up and is at the stage where they giggle alot when they talk and engage nicely with others.

 

If you must be there for classes then when they are not chanting the slokas or reading Prabhupada's actual words then just sit there and tune the speaker out and practice doing seated meditation. By that I mean focus on your posture: your spine straight like a pile of golden coins. Sit properly and have eyes have half closed looking ahead at 45 degree angle to the floor about one foot in front of you and focus on your breathing: "Breathing in I notice I am breathing in" [during the slow and gradual inhalation], "Breathing out I notice I am breathing out" [during the relaxing and peaceful exhalation].

 

The actual Sanskrit chanting of the Srimad Bhagavatam class after mangala arotik and greeting the Deities is usually okay because it is more like straight reading of Prabhupada's books and reciting of the slokas. Then if anyone adds their two cents you just go into the above mentioned seated meditation mode and let the words wash over you without paying any attention at all to the personality of the speaker. The Buddha exorted the bhikkus and bhikkunis to pay attention to the scriptures and not the personality of the speaker. If you are noticing people's personalities--pleasant, unpleasant--then try the seated meditation mode so you learn how to focus your mind on the slokas.

[cbrahma 0]

Gurudeva said

"Preaching is the Essence, Books Are the Basis, Utility is the Principle, and Purity is the Force"

Pretty much sums it up. He didn't say Books are the Essence, Books are the Force, Books are the principle. He said they are the basis. Which implies there is more than that. We have to ...uh...read them...and eventually ....uh ...follow the instructions given.

They should be distributed of course, but is that what makes Preaching the Essence. The simple act of selling them. SOMEBODY has to read them. If not the seller the purchaser.

Then that person grows in purity from which come force or shakti.

Explains the utter absence of it in so much of ISKCON.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Pretty much sums it up. He didn't say Books are the Essence, Books are the Force, Books are the principle. He said they are the basis. Which implies there is more than that. We have to ...uh...read them...and eventually ....uh ...follow the instructions given.

They should be distributed of course, but is that what makes Preaching the Essence. The simple act of selling them. SOMEBODY has to read them. If not the seller the purchaser.

Then that person grows in purity from which come force or shakti.

Explains the utter absence of it in so much of ISKCON.

On the thread, Quotes of Narayana Maharaja on Prabhupada 's Books, you wrote:

 

Prabhupada said, Prabuhpada told . That and a couple of dollars will buy you lunch at the corner deli. I am very careful about selling my soul, yep. I'm very phobic about that. Bogus-phobic.

I think you need to read this:

 

02/09/98 - 1590

Preaching is the Essence <hr>

USA (VNN) - by Swami B.G. Narasingha <http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya>

"Preaching is the Essence, Books Are the Basis, Utility is the Principle, and Purity is the Force". How many times Srila Prabhupada must have made this statement? This is indeed an important slogan in any temple, ashram, or household where a disciple or follower of Srila Prabhupada resides. This "slogan" has been quoted thousands of times in the Bhagavatam class by sannyasis, gurus and leading preachers as "Prabhupada said" - but did you know that His Divine Grace never said this!

If you have the facility of the Folio then simply key in the above "slogan" and see for yourself. He never said that "Preaching is the Essence, Books Are the Basis, Utility is the Principle, and Purity is the Force." No doubt - there is truth in this "slogan" but the point is that this "slogan" which has become a standard of siddhanta and a standard by which to understand the desires of Srila Prabhupada for ISKCON actually never came from the lips of Srila Prabhupada!

This slogan about the books and preaching etc. comes from a Chinese scroll which was pointed out to Srila Prabhupada by his disciples on Feb. 25, 1977. Remarkably Srila Prabhupada did not even ditto the slogan at that time but he simply asked if it were translated correctly - to which it was replied that the scroll read that "cleanliness was the force," not purity. Although the devotees did indeed appreciate the "slogan" we do not find that Srila Prabhupada made any further mention of it.

For the most part every devotee in the world is under the impression that this "slogan," as above mentioned, was personally uttered by Srila Prabhupada many times and that he established it as a pillar of thought in his movement or even as "Law" for that matter. At least that is what we have been led to believe. I do not wish to challenge the fact that "Preaching is the Essence" - for talk about Radha and Krishna is actually the essence of all speech - or that "Books are the Basis" - for the Vedas are the basis of knowledge and so forth - but there is no record that this slogan, "Preaching is the Essence, Books Are the Basis, Utility is the Principle, and Purity is the Force," was ever uttered or written by Srila Prabhupada even once. So how is it that we have all come under this misunderstanding?

[Guest guest]

Rather than hear the number of books distributed, you chose to observe how it was announced, thereby missing the essence.

 

Those that cheered, they just heard the numbers of books distributed and encouraged others by the cheering. You need to indulge in some self-introspection of your attitude Cbrahma. It'll do you a lot of good.

 

 

I am very conflicted on this topic. For one preaching has been exclusively interpreted to mean book distribution by the few ISKCON temple authorities that are still engaged in it.

 

When those who read these books show up at a temple, at least the temple I frequented that distributed books, they are pretty much ignored one-on-one. There are exceptions of course, depending on the demographics of the person inquiring compared to the devotee he/she is inquiring from.

If they are both Indian/young etc...there will be a rapport established.

But this obviously is a bodily conditioned relationship.

 

In fact I've known very dedicated aspirants who follow the entire saddhana

who are treated as invisible, unless of course they accidently do something wrong.

 

I still go to the temple restaurant and darshan of the deities.

I was disturbed yesterday when I went because the temple president had assembled everybody in the temple room to read off the holiday marathon scores. The cheering and celebration was exactly like a corporate Marketing Department plugging their top sales people, awards and gifts included.

The obvious message, was , the more money you bring in , the more advanced and celebrated you are.

 

The rhetoric about 'pleasing Prabhupada and serving Prabhupada's devotees' was the most disturbing, basically because it was a sham.

These same advanced devotees will walk right by some guest (barring similar demographics) as though he/she were invisible. No desire to connect and 'preach' where money and/or status is not the outcome.

 

I saw a movie about World War 2 afterwards and the military dynamics were so similar it was scary.

[Beggar 0]

 

Rather than hear the number of books distributed, you chose to observe how it was announced, thereby missing the essence.

 

Those that cheered, they just heard the numbers of books distributed and encouraged others by the cheering. You need to indulge in some self-introspection of your attitude Cbrahma. It'll do you a lot of good.

How do you know that they were distributing books?

[mahak 0]

Preaching means givig something one possesses. If you dont possess, you have nothing to give.

 

Distributing books for prabhupada had a specific instruction tied to it. Srila Prabhupada never approved of folks distributing his books who never read these books. If you have no knowledge of the material you distribute, then what makes you different than MacMillan. No, devotees hear, then chant. Become proficient in this science, then tell others what you know. Never preach over your head, if you dont know, be silent.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Beggar 0]

 

"Preaching is the Essence, Books Are the Basis, Utility is the Principle, and Purity is the Force". How many times Srila Prabhupada must have made this statement? This is indeed an important slogan in any temple, ashram, or household where a disciple or follower of Srila Prabhupada resides. This "slogan" has been quoted thousands of times in the Bhagavatam class by sannyasis, gurus and leading preachers as "Prabhupada said" - but did you know that His Divine Grace never said this!

He never said this? Well goolleee! Shazam!

[Guest guest]

Beggar ... sorry, I must hve missed something. What were they distributing?

 

 

How do you know that they were distributing books?

[Beggar 0]

 

Beggar ... sorry, I must hve missed something. What were they distributing?

I don't believe that cbrahma has clarified this. Maybe I'm missing something. We will have to wait until he posts again.