How to know we are getting closer to God?

[Guest guest]

Every genuine devotee of God wants to enter God's kingdom in this life and return to their Beloved Lord. They do not want to stay on the wheel of Samsara, apart from their Beloved, for any more lifetimes. Such a thought is scary and dreadful to the devotee.

 

How can a devotee find assurance that he will reach God's lotus feet in this lifetime, so that his worries about being reincarnated and not reaching God will subside? Are their inner/outer signs that we can see that let us know we are making real progress in our devotion?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

How can a devotee find assurance that he will reach God's lotus feet in this lifetime, so that his worries about being reincarnated and not reaching God will subside? Are their inner/outer signs that we can see that let us know we are making real progress in our devotion?

 

if your material desires diminish and your taste for devotional service increases.

 

if your humility becomes real and you are eager to glorify other devotees.

 

if you are happy within, simply by serving Krsna and His devotees

[theist 1]

The last stage will be when we no longer feel any need for escaping birth and death and are satisifed with serving where He places us. As for me I am stuck in the liberationist stage. This is the result of a little knowledge but no firm taste in bhakti. I have seen devotees who day after day seem to be more and more enthused and inspired. I believe if we are truly plugged in to the bhakti current we will feel fresh inspiration also and on the strength of that transcend our present bound position.

[Sridas 0]

The closer we are to God the further away we will feel

and the highest selfless servitors of Krsna feel they don't have a drop of love for Him yet in reality they are overflowing with it.

Krsna is attracted to the humble heart and repulsed by false pride.

Even if we feel abandoned or neglected it won't deterr us from our aspiration to please Him and especially his devotee more.

This is what reveals to us what we are made of and what His sweet will wishes of us, also it constitutes how much we are prepared to sacrifice our own pleasure for His or His genuine representitive. A devotees' life is one of endless sacrifice.

We can understand where we're at by how much we are prepared to extend our affectionate service unconditionally.

Lord Chaitanya's Siksastakam prayers nicely express our souls predicament in separation through thick and thin.

 

<CENTER>ashlishya va pada-ratam pinashtu mam

adarshanan marma-hatam karotu va

yatha tatha va vidadhatu lampato

mat-prana-nathas tu sa eva naparah

</CENTER><CENTER>

I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord, unconditionally.</CENTER><CENTER> </CENTER>

 

Even if we do take birth again we should just accept that it is the will of providence that we are not sufficently purified in this life, but like Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur we can pray to take birth in the family of a vaisnava thereby surrounding us in Krsna consciousness and the opportunity to serve the vaisnavas from birth, assuring us of constant rememberance of God, and by association all their pious qualities can come to us bringing increasing inner fullfilment. For in the Vaisnava conception to be around the hearing and glorification of his Name is non-different from Him personally.

 

 

 

 

[sanatan 0]

 

The last stage will be when we no longer feel any need for escaping birth and death and are satisifed with serving where He places us. As for me I am stuck in the liberationist stage. This is the result of a little knowledge but no firm taste in bhakti. I have seen devotees who day after day seem to be more and more enthused and inspired. I believe if we are truly plugged in to the bhakti current we will feel fresh inspiration also and on the strength of that transcend our present bound position.

 

That's the way I've always understood it...the desires for liberation from the material world or salvation in the Christian sense are actually subtle needs of the false ego. From that perspective pure bhakti is a pretty advanced concept...needless to say, I haven't grasped it well either.

[gHari 0]

The following was spoken by Srila Sridhara Maharaja, an intimate friend of Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

Reality the Beautiful

 

Ramananda Raya was a married man, but he was recognized by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as a

master of his senses to the extreme degree. Once a brahmana priest named Pradyumna Misra

came to Mahaprabhu and told Him, "I would like to hear about Krsna from Your lips." Mahaprabhu

said, "I do not know anything about Krsna, but Ramananda Raya knows. Go to him and

hear about Krsna. Take My name, and perhaps he will talk with you."

 

Pradyumna Misra was hesitant, but he went and observed Ramananda Raya for some time and

then returned and reported to Mahaprabhu. Mahaprabhu asked him, "Have you heard about

Krsna from Ramananda? "No.Why?I saw him engaged in something objectionable. I watched

for some time, and then returned here.What did you see?" Pradyumna Misra said, "I saw

Ramananda Raya training some young dancing girls!"

 

Girls who are generally devoted to the service of the Jagannatha Deity from a young age are

known as deva-dasis. They do not marry, and sometimes their character is not very good. Pradyumna

Misra saw Ramananda Raya training deva-dasis in a very objectionable way. He was

showing them how to go before the Jagannatha Deity and dance and sing. He showed them how

their posture should be, how they should gesture, and how their looks should be enticing. And

for such training he would sometimes even touch their private parts. So Pradyumna Misra told

Mahaprabhu, "Seeing Ramananda doing all these things, I had no regard for him, so for some

time I saw him busily engaged in that matter, and then I went away."

 

Master of the Senses

 

Mahaprabhu told him, "Don't underestimate Ramananda Raya. He is the master of his senses.

There is not a tinge of craft in him. Even I feel trouble from sense disturbance within Me, but

Ramananda has no such trouble. We have no direct experience that a stage can be attained where

it is possible to be above mundane sense pleasure, but we have only heard through the scriptures

that there is a stage when a man may transcend all these gross attachments.

 

This is mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.33.39):

 

vikriditam vraja-vadhubhir idam ca visnoh

sraddhanvito 'nusrnuyad atha varnayed yah

bhaktim param bhagavati pratilabhya kamam

hrd-rogam asv apahinoty acirena dhirah

 

"One who hears with firm faith the supramundane amorous affairs of Lord Krsna and the gopis,

as described by a pure devotee of the Lord, soon becomes freed from mundane lust and achieves

divine love of Krsna."

 

One may be engaged bodily in such activities, while his heart is elsewhere. And there is only one

who is of that type: Ramananda Raya. There are not big numbers of Ramanandas; there is only

one Ramananda, who has acquired such a stage because he is well-versed in the kind of sentiment

and realization which is necessary for the service of Krsna and the gopis. His heart is completely

dedicated to the cause of Krsna; He has no selfish interest. He is always in Krsna consciousness,

and whatever he does is for Krsna's satisfaction, so don't think ill of him. Go there

again."

 

Mad for Krsna

Then Pradyumna Misra again went to see Ramananda Raya, and Ramananda began their conversation

by saying "Oh, on that day I could not oblige you. But again you have come to hear about

Krsna. How fortunate I am!" In the morning, Ramananda Raya began to speak, and when the

afternoon came, still he was madly talking about Krsna. He completely forgot about eating, bathing,

or anything else. He was mad, incessantly speaking of Krsna. Then, when it was late, his

servants came twice, thrice, to ask him to take bath and eat his dinner, and finally, he had to leave

the talk and go. Then Pradyumna Misra returned to Mahaprabhu and said, "Yes, I have heard

from Ramananda Raya, and my heart is full from hearing about Krsna from him."

 

Mahaprabhu Himself had heard from Ramananda Raya, and He said, "Ramananda knows what

is Krsna. What I taught to Rupa and Sanatana, I heard from Ramananda." It is mentioned that

Mahaprabhu took diksa, initiation, from Isvara Puri; for preaching purposes he took sannyasa,

the renounced order, from Kesava Bharati; and for entrance into the transcendental pastimes of

Krsna in Vrndavana, He took raga marga initiation from Ramananda Raya. Of course, Isvara

Puri, Kesava Bharati, and Ramananda Raya never thought of themselves as the guru of Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu. But it was seen that Mahaprabhu treated Ramananda with some respect. It is

mentioned in the Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 8.204) that if one wants to enter into the spontaneous

devotion of Krsna's pastimes in Vraja, it is required that he take shelter of a confidential

maidservant in conjugal mellow, madhurya rasa (sakhi vina ei lilaya anyera nahi gati).They are

masters of that situation. The whole storehouse of this madhurya lila is in the hands of those

maidservants. Only they can give it to others. In madhurya rasa, the guru is seen in the form and

spirit of a sakhi, a maidservant of Radharani (guru rupa sakhi). Ramananda Raya was Visakhasakhi,

the right-hand personal attendant of Srimati Radharani.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu gives us a hint of the necessity of approaching a confidential associate

of Srimati Radharani when he says to Ramananda kiba vipra, kiba nyasi sudra kene naya, yei

krsna-tattva vetta sei 'guru' haya: "Why do you shrink away from instructing Me? I am learning

so much from you. You are well-versed in the affairs of Krsna, so you are guru; therefore I am

hearing from you. Whoever is the master of that storehouse of krsna-lila, and whoever can distribute

it - he is guru; of this, there is no doubt."

The famous talks between Ramananda Raya and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took place on the

banks of the Godavari river. The name Godavari is significant, for it indicates that place where

the highest fulfillment of our spiritual senses was given. The fullest engagement of all our senses

was announced there on the banks of the Godavari: "Your senses are not to be rejected. If you

can give up the spirit of exploitation and renunciation, then your senses will have their fulfillment

with Krsna. Those tendencies bar your approach to Krsna; to properly approach Krsna, you

will have to utilize your senses to the fullest extent." That was dealt with on the banks of the Godavari.

 

The Ultimate Goal of Life

There, in his famous conversations with Ramananda Raya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu began the

approach to pure devotional service in a general and comprehensive way. This is recorded in the

Madhya-lila of Caitanyacaritamrta (8.51-313). He asked Ramananda Raya, prabhu kahe, - "pada

sloka sadhyera nirnaya": "What is the ultimate goal of life? I not only want to hear your statements,

but also evidence from the scriptures."

 

The answer came from Ramananda Raya: raya kahe, - "sva-dharmacarane visnu-bhakti haya."

"Discharge your own duty, without expecting anything in return." Sva dharma means varnasrama

dharma, Vedic social stratification. "You are posted in your present position by your previous

karma. According to your present position, you have to discharge your duties on one condition:

you must do them without remuneration. If you go on with your duties in varnasrama dharma,

without any mundane aim, you can achieve visnu-bhakti, devotion to God. This is confirmed in

the Visnu Purana (3.8.9):

 

varnasramacaravata

purusena parah puman

visnur aradhyate pantha

nanyat tat-tosa-karanam

 

"The only way to please the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is to worship Him by

properly executing one's prescribed duties in the social system of varna and asrama." Here, Ramananda

Raya says that visnu-bhakti, adherence to the Lord who is permeating everything, is

the object and ultimate destination of our life. This is the Vasudeva conception: everything is in

Him, and He is everywhere. Ramananda explained that from our local interests, we must come

to embrace the general interest, and that must reach the level of Visnu consciousness: visnubhakti.

Our submission to Visnu, the internal spirit who is everywhere, is the object of life. We

must connect with Him and live accordingly; not a phenomenal life, but a spiritual life pertaining

to a deeper, more subtle plane.

 

Devotion Mixed with Desires

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "This is superficial; go deeper." Of course, it may be thought that

actual theistic life begins from here, giving up the special, local purpose, and acting for a universal

purpose, as already ordered and programmed in the Vedas and Upanisads. But Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu said, "This is superficial; go deeper."

Then, Ramananda Raya said, krsne karmarpana - sarvasadhya-sara: "To offer the results of one's

activities to Krsna is the essence of all perfection." In varnasrama dharma, it is the fashion that

people are generally engaged in external activities and do not care to give up the fruits of their

action. Even if they do, they have no direct consciousness of Visnu or Krsna. They worship the

goddess Durga, perform the sraddha funeral ceremony and execute so many other religious

practices. Indirectly, it is ultimately connected with Visnu. They may or may not know how, but

the link is there. That is the general conception of varnasrama, but here, Ramananda says that it

will be better to have direct consciousness that Krsna is the authority. All the results of whatever

we do within the varnasrama social system must be given to Krsna. If we perform all our physical,

social, national and spiritual activities in Krsna consciousness, then we can approach the

fulfillment of our goal in life.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said "This is superficial; go deeper." Then Ramananda Raya revealed

new light, (quoting the Bhagavad-gita (18.66): sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam

vraja, "Give up all your duties, and just surrender to Me." We must be particular with the object

of life; not the external activities of varnasrama. Less importance should be given to the form of

our activity: whether I am a king, a brahmana intellectual, or a worker does not matter. We may

think, "I have this sort of duty, I have that sort of duty," but that does not matter very much. We

must have no attachment for that. The king may leave his kingdom and take to a brahmanic life

of renunciation and austerity. A sudra may give up his labor, become a beggar, and chant the name

of Krsna. A brahmana may give up his performance of sacrifice and become a mendicant. So,

we are to be particular about the aim of life; not the form of our duty. We must exclusively devote

ourselves to the cause of the Lord, ignoring our present paraphernaliaand duty.

 

Knowledge and Devotion

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "This is also superficial; go ahead - deeper." Then, Ramananda

Raya explained jnana-misra bhakti, devotional service mixed with knowledge, by quoting from

the Bhagavad-gita (18.54) where Krsna says:

 

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

 

One who has come to the stage of identifying himself with spirit above matter has nothing to do

with this mundane world. Any loss or gain in this mundane world is of no use to him. He is spirit;

his prospect is in the world of soul, and he has nothing to do with this material world, whether

it is laudable or blamable. He is already settled in the consciousness that he is soul proper

and has nothing to do with matter, so within himself he feels satisfaction. He is atmarama: selfcontent;

he neither mourns, nor aspires for anything. If something is lost, does he mourn? No. He

thinks, "This is nothing; it is only matter." And when something is gained, he is not overly cheerful,

because it is only matter; it is unnecessary and unimportant. Now true devotional service can

begin; his soul can begin living in the spiritual plane, with a pure serving attitude, unmixed with

any mundane aspiration. When one attains the spiritual platform, he gets the opportunity to practice

a higher type of service.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "This is also superficial. Such a person is only on the verge of

devotional service; he has no substantial touch of devotion. He has not entered the domain of

bhakti; he is just waiting in the marginal position, at the door. He may attain bhakti, but he has

not yet achieved it. His negative forces are finished, but still, he is just at the door; he has not yet

entered. He may enter; he may not enter. From there, if he gets anything, it will be pure, but he is

still at the door.

 

Beyond Spirit "Go Deeper''

Ramananda Raya then said, jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva: "It is a very difficult thing to

cross the charm of knowledge." We think, "I want to understand everything first, and then I shall

act." Calculation and an underlying suspicion is there. Before we act, we want to know everything

fully; only then will we risk our capital. The ego, the "I" is very strong, and he wants to

have an account of his loss and gain. He thinks, "I am the master. The key is in my hand, I want

to test everything, I want to know it all. I know what is good for me." So, we think ourselves

masters, not servants, and from the position of a master we make our inquiry.

 

But this calculating mentality must be given up if we at all want to enter into the domain of the

Lord, where everything is superior to us. No one there will care to come to us with an explanation,

thinking that we are their master. They will not reassure us by saying, "Yes, there will be no

loss; your gain will be big." We may think, "I am an independent separate entity, so in my account

there must be no loss. I must stand here with my head erect," but that won't do. We are to

go there as slaves, not masters. That sort of mentality is necessary: we must bow down our

heads. Not that with our heads erect we will march over everything, but everything there is superior

in quality to us.

 

Divine Slavery

So, we have to enter into that transcendental land, where even the earth, water, air, and whatever

we will find, is made of higher materials than we ourselves are made of. They are all guru, and

we are disciples. They are all masters, and we are servants; we have to enter the land where everything

is our master. We will have to submit; that will be our real qualification. What we will be

ordered to do, we will. have to do. We are not to exercise our brain so much there. The brain has

no room there; they are all brainier than we. Our brain is unnecessary there; only our hands are

necessary. Menial labor is necessary there. Brain there is enough. We are to enter that land if we

like. It is a land of slavery for us. So, we are to hatefully dismiss our brains, and taking only out

hearts, we must approach and enter that land.

 

We should think, "I am as insignificant as a mosquito," just as Lord Brahma did when he went to

Dwaraka to visit Lord Krsna. And it is not only for the time being; not that one will accept a

humble attitude, finish his work and then come back. No. We will have to accept such an insignificant

position eternally. Of course, we may expect to be educated about Krsna consciousness:

how it is good, how it is great, how it is useful to us. We will be allowed pariprasna: honest inquiry.

In the transcendental realm, everyone is our friend. They will come to help us, to make us

understand that devotional service is beautiful, and that Krsna consciousness is the best form of

life. Our aspiration and purity of purpose is to be valued; not our external position. The recruiters

from that side will consider our purity of purpose, not so much our present position and capacity.

And although apparently it seems that we are going to be slaves, the result is just the opposite. If

you can accept such an attitude of surrender and slavery, then He who can never be conquered

will be conquered. Friends will come and help you, the sadhus will come and make you understand

that we should become slaves, that Krsna likes His slaves very much. He is the master of

slaves, and sometimes He wants to become the slave of His slaves (gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor

dasa-dasanudasah). This is the key to success, and we can achieve the highest gain through

this attitude.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu told Ramananda Raya, "Yes, this is true. The unconquerable is conquered

by surrender. We can capture Him. I accept this as the beginning plane of divine love: by

giving we can get as much as we risk. As much as we risk to give ourselves, so much we can

demand from that unconquerable infinite." Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I accept this as the

beginning of suddha-bhakti, pure devotional service. But go farther."

 

The Science of Rasa

Ramananda Raya explained that from there pure devotional service develops in a crude form, in

a general way, and when it is more mature, it must take the shape of santa, neutrality, dasya, servitorship,

sakhya, friendship, vatsalya, paternal affection, and madhurya rasa, conjugal love. In

santa rasa, there is adherence, nistha: one thinks, "I cannot withdraw myself from this consciousness

of continuous submission to the truth. Neutrality develops into dasya rasa, the desire to do

some service. When a devotee is not satisfied by only sitting, showing loyalty to the Supreme

Authority, he wants to be utilized by Him. He awaits the Lord's order, praying that the Lord may

give him some engagement. When a devotee has such deep penetration that he wants to be utilized

in any way by the Lord, that is known as dasya rasa, or devotion in the mood of service.

Then there is sakhya rasa: devotional service in friendship.

 

God the Friend

When, in dasya rasa, confidence is added to service, then it becomes a little superior. Generally

old servants who are faithful become confidential servants, so when the confidential stage is added

to service, it becomes sakhya rasa, or devotional service as a friend of the Lord. First there is

nistha, adherence, submission, then the devotee wants to be utilized for His satisfaction, then

there is confidential utilization, and then it comes to friendly service, sakhya rasa. In Vaikuntha,

where Lord Narayana is served in calculative devotion, only santa rasa, dasya rasa, and half of

sakhya rasa are seen. Full confidence is not possible there. Awe, reverence, splendor, grandeur,

pomp, apprehension - all these vanish when we develop a more confidential relationship with the

Supreme Lord. At that time, the object of our worship or love changes in another way. Then from

Vaikuntha, we feel attraction for Ayodhya, the divine abode of Lord Ramacandra, where there is

neutrality, servitorship, and friendship with Vibisana and Sugriva. There, we can also trace vatsalya

rasa, parental love of Godhead.

 

God the Son

In vatsalya rasa, confidence has developed to the peculiar stage in which the servitors think

themselves promoted to the post of protecting the object of their veneration. Filial affection is

also service. Although it seems that the parents are masters of the situation, controlling the Lord

as their son, sometimes chastising and punishing Him, this is a superficial view. If we can enter

into the depth of their service, we shall find an incomparable love of a most peculiar type. On the

surface, they are engaged in punishingand rebuking the Lord; underground, they are full of interest

for the welfare of the object of their service. Vatsalya, or parental love of Godhead, is a peculiar

type of divine love. We see a very light type of vatsalya in Ayodhya, so it is almost ignored.

 

Mathura: The Krsna Conception

Rupa Goswami leaped from Vaikuntha to Mathura in one stride. In his Upadesamrta (9), he writes:

Vaikunthaj janito vara madhu-puri tatrapi rasotsavad. " Mathura is superior to Vaikuntha

because Lord Sri Krsna appeared there." It is there that everything is shown in a clear and

substantial way. In Mathura we find the Krsna conception of Godhead. In one stride he has come

from Vaikuntha to the Krsna conception, but Sanatana Goswami has filled up the gap. In his

book, Brhad-bhagavatamrta, he says that on the way to Mathura there is Ayodhya, the spiritual

kingdom of Lord Rama, and there we find sakhya and vatsalya rasa.

 

But Rupa Goswami goes to Mathura at once. He says, "Come to Mathura; here you will find

sakhya and vatsalya rasa clearly visible. He has shown how sakhya rasa service is present there.

The devotees there are playing with Krsna, sometimes climbing on His shoulders, and perhaps

sometimes even giving Him a slap. But, although they may mix with Him in this way, their heart

is full of a peculiar type of service attitude. That is the criterion: they may give up their lives a

thousand times to take a thorn out of His sole. They can sacrifice themselves a thousand times

for the slightest satisfaction of their friend. They consider Him a thousand times more valuable

than their own life. In vatsalya rasa also, the criterion is similar: for the slightest interest of the

object of their veneration they can give their lives millions of times. Such affection is found there.

And then, from vatsalya, it progresses to conjugal love (madhurya rasa), the all-comprehensive

rasa which includes adherence (santa-nistha), service (dasya), friendly confidence (sakhya), and

parental love (vatsalya rasa). But the wholesale dedication of every atom of our existence for

Krsna's satisfaction is found in madhurya rasa, which includes all other rasas.

 

Conjugal Mellow

And madhurya rasa is more enhanced when it is couched in the form of parakiya, or paramour

relationship. In parakiya rasa, the gopis risk everything for the service of Krsna. Parakiya rasa

takes two forms: in one, there is no obligation of anything; the union may happen or may not

happen. So, because their meeting is very rare, it becomes even sweeter. There is another kind of

parakiya rasa: we are told that ordinary food is not palatable to Krsna, but when He takes food

by stealing, that is more tasteful to Him. If we can follow this art, that may also be applied in the

case of parakiya rasa. "I am deceiving the party, getting what I want. I am stealing the property

of someone else." That sort of posing becomes more tasteful to the subjective party.

And the dedicated party risks everything: their good name, society, future, and even the dictation

of the religious scriptures. They take a wholesale risk, just as one time, when we were in Madras,

the King of Jaipur gave some money for the construction of a temple. The money was sent to our

head office in Calcutta. Out of 5,000 rupees, the first installment was 1,000 rupees, and the construction

work was begun by sending a worker from our main center. Then, Madhava Maharaja

and I were sent to Madras, where we heard that the king would soon come. In order to show him

that some work had been done we raised the construction to some extent, so the king could be

told, "Your money has been spent, and now the next installment is necessary." In order to do this,

we incurred a debt. We took a loan for bricks and other things and raised the construction to a

higher level.

 

When we wrote this to our guru maharaja, we had some apprehension that he would chastise us:

"Why have you taken this loan?" Instead of that, he gave us his appreciation: "You have risked

your future in the service of Krsna. You have taken a loan, and that means you have to pay off

that loan, so you have engaged your future energy in the service of Krsna. You will have to collect

money and pay off the loan, so there is service with risk of the future." The gopis consciously

risked their future: "We have disobeyed our superior persons and the directions of the

Vedas; what we do is neither approved by society, nor by the religious books. Our future is

dark." Still, they could not but serve Krsna.

So, vaikunthaj janito vara madhu-puri tatrapi rasotsavad. Janito means vatsalya rasa and madhurya

rasa in Vrndavana: radha-kundam ihapi gokula-pateh. In the madhurya rasa also, three

groups are shown: Vrndavana in general, selected groups in Govardhana, and the highest group

in Radha-kunda. All these things have been shown in the conversation between Ramananda Raya

and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Radha: Queen of the Gopis

After this, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Go further." Then, Ramananda Raya began to explain

the kind of service rendered by Radharani in madhurya rasa . Her devotional service is categorically

higher than that of all the other gopis. Radham adhaya hrdaye tatyaja vraja sundarih (Gitagovinda

3.1 Jayadeva Goswami). The whole group of gopis can be canceled only for one: Srimati

Radharani. What peculiar type of service may come from Her? And Krsna, the Original

Personality of Godhead (svayam rupa) is only by the side of Radharani. By the side of other gopis,

that is prabhava prakasa, a plenary expansion; not svayam rupa, the original form. Such is

the quality of Srimati Radharani. We should show our highest reverence to this highest ideal of

devotional service.

 

Radha-Krsna: Union in Separation

Then the last question came from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: "Can you think of anything more

than this?" Then, Ramananda Raya said, "You asked me to quote scripture to support whatever I

say, but here I won't be able to quote scripture from anywhere. Still, I have a new feeling within

me, and if You would like to know that, I can explain it to You." In this way, one song was composed

by Ramananda Raya. He introduced this song by saying, "Whether or not it will be pleasing

to You, I do not know, but it seems to me that there is a stage which is even better than the

meeting of Radha and Govinda." There is a stage where both of Them, the positive and negative

are combined, no individual consciousness is clear, and one is searching another in self-forgetfulness.

This searching of one party by the other is very strong and intense. This seems to be a

more highly elevated love: union in separation. Radha and Govinda are so intense in Their

search of one another that even They have no consciousness of whether They have each other.

Radharani sometimes experiences that even while Krsna is present before Her, She fears losing

Him; that feeling becomes as intense as if She has lost Him. They are together, but the apprehension

that one may lose the other makes their meeting intolerably painful, just as a mother is always

alert about the safety of her son (anistasankini bandhu-hrdayani bhavanti hi). A mother

thinks, "Oh, my son is out - is he in an accident?" This fear of separation is the symptom of deep

love.

 

Sri Caitanya Avatara

Ramananda Raya's composition gave a hint about the divine appearance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

in which both Radha and Govinda are combined, and it is as if they are unconscious of

Their separate existence. One is searching the other, Krsna Himself is overflowing with the feelings

of Radharani, and They are so deeply embraced that one is lost in the other. Then, Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu put His palm over the mouth of Ramananda Raya, and told him, "No further."

Rasa-raja maha bhava - dui eka rupa. Lord Sri Krsna is the fountainhead of all pleasure, and

Srimati Radharani is the embodiment of ecstatic love of Godhead. These two forms are united as

one in Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Rasaraja: Ecstasy Himself

Mahaprabhu replied, "Oh, because you are a cent percent devotee, wherever you cast your glance

you see only Krsna; nothing else. The object of your interest is represented everywhere." Ramananda

Raya said, "My Lord, don't deceive me in this way. You have come here so graciously

to purify this mean person, and if You act diplomatically now, it will not look well for You. I

won't hear what You say; come out with Your real position.Who are You?" Mahaprabhu said,

"By dint of your loving devotion, you can know everything in this world; nothing can be concealed

from your loving eye." Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena.

 

Then, Mahaprabhu revealed Himself: "When you see Me to be externally of a golden color, it is not

so. It is by the touch of the color of Radharani. And who can Radharani touch and closely embrace?

She will never touch anyone except Krsna. So, now you know who I am: Rasaraja - ecstasy Himself,

and Mahabhava - the one who can taste that highest rasa. See how They mingle together!

Ramananda Raya fainted and fell flat on the floor. He could not keep his senses. Then by the

touch of His hand, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu again brought him to his senses. Ramananda returned

to his previous stage of consciousness and saw a sannyasi sitting before him. After a short

pause, Mahaprabhu said, "Remain here, I am going."

 

Afterwards, Ramananda Raya and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu had some other talks, and Mahaprabhu

said, "Ramananda, as long as I live I want your company." Ramananda replied, "Yes, I

must take shelter of Your Divine feet and live there for the rest of my life." Ramananda later made

arrangements with the King of Orissa to retire from his post as Governor of Madras and came

to Jagannatha Puri. For almost two years, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu wandered about the holy

places of Southern and Western India and at last returned to Puri. There they again met.

 

Transcendental Madness

After this, Mahaprabhu went to Vrndavana through Bengal. Six years passed, and Advaita Prabhu

almost gave leave to Mahaprabhu, saying, "Our pastimes of introducing the chanting of Hare

Krsna are finished." Then Mahaprabhu continuously showed Radharani's mood of tasting krsnaprema,

ecstatic love of Krsna, for twelve years. Svarupa Damodara and Ramananda Raya, who

are Lalita and Visakha, the two principle gopi assistants of Radharani, were Mahaprabhu's most

important company during that time. There, so many things about the deep feelings of Divine

love have been shown. It has never been found in the history of the world, or even expressed in

any scripture how such intense love within can produce such corresponding symptoms on the

surface. That was shown by Radharani and later shown by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

It was shown by Mahaprabhu in His practices also, how krsna prema, love of Krsna, can play a

man like a doll. Sometimes His legs and hands would enter inconceivably into His body, and

sometimes His joints would disconnect and His transcendental body would appear elongated.

Sometimes His whole body would become white, and He would lay unconscious, breathing so

slowly that His breath could not be traced. In this way, He exhibited many amazing symptoms of

ecstasy.

 

Svarupa Damodara, the personal secretary of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has explained the meaning

of His appearance in his memoirs, which were recorded in the Caitanya-caritamrta of Kaviraja

Goswami. He writes:

 

radha krsna-pranaya-vikrtir hladini saktir asmad

ekatmanav api bhuvi pura deha-bhedam gatau tau

caitanyakhyam prakatam adhuna tad-dvayam caikyam aptam

radha-bhava-dyuti-suvalitam naumi krsna-svarupam

 

Sometimes Radha and Krsna are combined; sometimes They are separate. They are separate in

Dvapara-yuga, and in Kali-yuga they are combined as Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Both are

eternal expressions of the same Absolute Truth. Summer, autumn, winter, and spring continue in

a cyclic order; it cannot be said that summer is the beginning and winter comes later. So, the

pastimes of Sri Radha and Krsna are eternally being enacted. In ancient times, sometimes Radha

and Krsna divided Themselves and showed Their pastimes; again both of Them, the potency and

the owner of the potency, are combined and closely embraced as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The

predominating and the predominated moiety are mixed, and an extraordinary ecstatic feeling is

there. Krsna is overpowered by His potency, and He Himself is searching after His own Self:

krsnasya atmanusandhana. Krsna Himself is engaged in the search for Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful.

 

The influence of Radharani over Krsna has transformed Him into a devotee, and He is

searching Himself. Sweetness is tasting Itself and becoming mad. And it is living sweetness; not

dead or static, but dynamic ecstasy - sweetness endowed with life. And He is tasting Himself, the

personification of happiness, ecstasy, and beauty, and dancing in madness, and His performance

of kirtana means distributing that ecstasy to others. The ultimate sweetness, or ananda, is such

that no other thing exists that can taste itself and express its own happiness with such intensity. I

have described Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in the Prema Dhama Deva Stotram:

 

atma-siddha-sava lila-purna-saukhya-laksanam

svanubhava-matta-nrtya-kirtanatma-vantanam

advayaika-laksya-purna-tattva-tat-paratparam

prema-dhama-devam-eva naumi gaura-sundaram

 

"The highest conception of the Absolute Truth must also be the highest form of ananda, ecstasy.

Mahaprabhu's dancing indicates that He is full of ecstasy, and His kirtana is distribution of that

rasa. So, if we scientifically search out who Mahaprabhu is, we cannot but find that He is the Ultimate

Reality. He is mad in tasting His own internal nectar, and His dancing is the outcome of

His transcendental ecstasy. And He is chanting, distributing that to others. So, studying quite closely

the character of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, we cannot but think that He is the Supreme Absolute

Truth, in its fullest, and most dynamic expression."

[Srimanta 0]

 

Every genuine devotee of God wants to enter God's kingdom in this life and return to their Beloved Lord. They do not want to stay on the wheel of Samsara, apart from their Beloved, for any more lifetimes. Such a thought is scary and dreadful to the devotee.

 

How can a devotee find assurance that he will reach God's lotus feet in this lifetime, so that his worries about being reincarnated and not reaching God will subside? Are their inner/outer signs that we can see that let us know we are making real progress in our devotion?

 

Only when you can not remain single moment without thinking about Krsna

[Guest guest]

RE: "Are there inner/outer signs that we can know we are making progress?"

 

When you get to the point where you stop thinking that you are separated from God in the first place that would be a pretty good sign.

 

 

 

For example: God is present in His holy names. he is non-different. So to the degree you experience that to be true or not, would be an indicator.

 

Another example: God is non-different from His paraphernalia and anything He has glanced over or touched, His prasada. So the degree to which you respect His paraphernalia and the degree to which you are getting some rasa from interacting with prasada and maha prasada, Divine remnants, would be an indicator.

 

Another example: the Deity is non-different from the Lord. So what kind of a rasa or taste do you have when you have darsan of the Deity? Darsan involves to see and also be seen? How much are you having a feeling of

reciprocation? Also, how much of your worship is internal at this point?

 

 

 

 

Another signpost: 24 hours engaged in devotional service. Hearing, chanting, remembering etc.

 

Another signpost: are you now perceiving the Lord within the heart of each and every living being? The Lord is all around you in everyone's heart. So are you seeing that and experiencing it or not? Not just in humans but in animals and plants and even mountains etc.

 

When you see mountain do you think, "Oh you great devotee, great servant of the Divine: how wonderful you are so steady in your service and giving so many benedictions to innumerable living beings residing on you?"

 

 

 

 

When you are walking down the street, are you feeling/ seeing / experiencing "Here is the Lord" i.e. do you actually perceive the Lord hiding Himself in everyone's heart? When you see others are you marvelling "There is the Lord in so many different disguises!" Do you see Him everywhere and actually feel surrounded by the Lord, that there is no place He is not existing?

 

Not only by people and animals but anything glorious and wonderful are you thinking of it in relation to the Lord?

 

After you pay respects to mountain then when you meditate on mountain do you actually perceive: "There is Barsana", and "There is Govardhana?" even if you are not in India? When you see river do you automatically think, "There is Yamuna?" even if you are not in India?

 

 

 

In other words a signpost would be you are experiencing the Lord at every moment in present body. It's not like, "Oh gee whiz, I don't see the Lord now but when I leave my body surely I will be able to see Him then." When you move out of the kanistha stage into the madhyama stage then you start seeing Him everywhere at every moment and in every thing and in every situation.

 

That is very funny and fun stage to get into. Then you hear some song like "My Sweet Lord" and George Harrison is singing, "I really want to see You but it takes so long" you are like, "what are you talking about? What do you mean it takes so long? God is with you right now, you silly goose."

 

Then you think, "Oh gee whiz he was not very strict with his sadhana, so maybe it WILL take a long time for him. Poor guy. All that time smoking pot and womanizing and racing cars, prolonging the kanistha stage of life for him."

 

 

 

So is this happening or not? Every moment do you feel like puppet and being directed by the Divine? Every moment do you feel a sense of ecstasy and well-being and bliss? Have you been able to resolve all of your past karmas and understand why you are here on this earth at this time?

 

Have you stopped creating new karmas? Every day every action are you taking care to follow and do only all auspicious activities? Are you a kind person now? Do you enjoy the company of pure devotees like Srimati Tulasi Devi? Are you eager to daily apply auspicious tilakas and take delight in it?

 

Well those are just a few signposts. If you are not experiencing then keep on doing the sadhanas as purely as possible, then it will happen for you.

[Guest guest]

 

The last stage will be when we no longer feel any need for escaping birth and death and are satisifed with serving where He places us. .

 

How are you serving God if you are in Samsara and don't have a clue who or what God is, let alone that you have pre-existed this birth? the only way to know who God is is to meet him or experience him, which can really only be done when we reach Nirvana.. not while we are in Samsara.

 

There may be some Masters who incarnate with real knowledge and for a divine purpose, but 99.9% of people are in spiritual darkness or confused; what to speak of knowing their purpose in life. Every man may hold onto their religious beliefs, whether it be Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Wiccan, or whatever, as "truth", but if they are truly honest with themselves they much admit they really can't be sure what is the Ultimate Truth... Only enlightened beings can truly serve God with knowledge; and thus serve mankind with what they know.

 

One should try to reach God's realm.. and not stay within the cycle of birth and death, where beings are deluded and suffering. Only if we are what the Buddhists call a Bodhisattva, trying to help enlighten others with our knowledge and compassion, should we even think about staying behind. Most people should strive to leave this land of birth and death.. which is why even Jesus said, we should strive to become overcomers and be made Pillars in the Temple of God, where we go no more out in the outer worlds of darkness.

[Guest guest]

 

How are you serving God if you are in Samsara and don't have a clue who or what God is, let alone that you have pre-existed this birth? the only way to know who God is is to meet him or experience him, which can really only be done when we reach Nirvana.. not while we are in Samsara.

 

There may be some Masters who incarnate with real knowledge and for a divine purpose, but 99.9% of people are in spiritual darkness or confused; what to speak of knowing their purpose in life. Every man may hold onto their religious beliefs, whether it be Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Wiccan, or whatever, as "truth", but if they are truly honest with themselves they much admit they really can't be sure what is the Ultimate Truth... Only enlightened beings can truly serve God with knowledge; and thus serve mankind with what they know.

 

One should try to reach God's realm.. and not stay within the cycle of birth and death, where beings are deluded and suffering. Only if we are what the Buddhists call a Bodhisattva, trying to help enlighten others with our knowledge and compassion, should we even think about staying behind. Most people should strive to leave this land of birth and death.. which is why even Jesus said, we should strive to become overcomers and be made Pillars in the Temple of God, where we go no more out in the outer worlds of darkness.

 

 

I think what Theist is saying is the same as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur which is the devotees consciousness of 'Thy will be done'. A servant of God isn't desiring liberation or living for their own will. The Gopis are never thinking of freedom only how they can please their mistress and master, of course we're not on that platform, but they are the ideal role models of surrender. Our purpose in life where ever we may be, is to simply serve God in or out of the body, the agony or the ecstacy, makes no difference if God wants you to help others that are in samsara then that is fine untill He calls you elsewhere. It's all good or even more than that it's suddha satvic. Like the spiritual master sending you to Siberia to preach, it may not be Tahiti, but if one is fullfilling the will of Guru and Gauranga then it can be a lot more rewarding.

 

I saw an interesting interview with Leonard Cohen recently, where he said something to this effect that all his life he's been trying seek the truth in so many ways from religion to drugs, pleasure, philosophy etc and he's always been driven or tormented by this obsession, but recently he's just let go of it all and now for the first time in his life an inner contentment has come over him like it doesn't matter and he claims to have finally found peace.

 

I think any devotee who is making a serious attempt to sincerely extend what they have received from the acharyas will feel some inner fulfillment, and it is the compassionate giving to others that will qualify one to become a liberated bodhisattva or nitya siddha.

Emersion in sense gratification is another story.

[gHari 0]

Bartering love for release from the wheel is commerce. There is a higher sentiment, a purer love. Go further.

 

Selfless love with no expectation of reward in return, as exhibited by the gopis of Vrindavana, is the highest expression of our true nature.

[shiva 0]

 

How can a devotee find assurance that he will reach God's lotus feet in this lifetime, so that his worries about being reincarnated and not reaching God will subside? Are their inner/outer signs that we can see that let us know we are making real progress in our devotion?

 

The advanced devotee does not engage in bhakti related activity (sravanam, kirtanam etc) because he seeks to become free from samsara, rather he engages in bhakti activity out of affection. When one has attained affection for god, real emotional feeling of love, then that is a sign of an advanced soul. Regardless of how much sadhana you have done this affection will be there at some stage. A neophyte might have affection for god and he humble and magnanimous, whereas a long time bhakta expert in shastra and rituals may have little or no real emotional affection or love for god and be domineering and selfish. Externally it is easy to act as an advanced knowledgable bhakta, but it is the internal qualities of a person which qualifies or disqualifies them from intimacy with Radha Krishna.

 

It's not like Krishna seeks to keep the devotee out of the spiritual world, rather the spiritual world is very easy to gain entrance for those who desire to be there. It is all about desire really. If you desire to enjoy life as the dominator, if you wish to lord it over others, then you will take birth in the mateiral world regardless of your external bhakti activity. If you desire to simply give affection and love and do not desire to lord it over others, then for the bhakta the next life is easily assured to be with Radha Krishna.

[Guest guest]

The special qualification of the pure devotee is that he is always thinking of Krishna without considering the time or place. There should be no impediments. He should be able to carry out his service anywhere and at any time. Some say that the devotee should remain in holy places like Vrindavana or some holy town where the Lord lived, but a pure devotee can live anywhere and create the atmosphere of Vrindavana by his devotional service. It was Sri Advaita who told Lord Caitanya, "Wherever You are, O Lord---there is Vrindavana." Bhagavad Gita, 8.14 purport

[Guest guest]

There is a lovely article just posted today 10-4-06 on Chakra by Niscala dd entitled "Two Types of Brahman Realization".

 

She elucidates the same concepts as Guest in post #8 of this thread but in a more scholarly way.

 

The main points Niscala dd makes are:

 

In the KANISTHA stage we attain BRAHMAN realization

 

MADHYAMA stage we attain PARAM ATMA realization

 

UTTAMA stage we attain BHAGAVAN realization

 

Also please note that within each of these stages is a beginning, middle, and advanced stage also.

 

She describes some signposts for each stage from the standpoint of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition.

[Guest guest]

Here is a signpost as taught to me by one didi who studied in India from 1983 from a Master Devotional Storyteller [aka "Hari Katha"].

 

 

 

Yes, we may want to see God, but does God want to see us? That is the question.

 

"We want to see God" but what does that mean exactly? We may want to see God because we are suffering. However does that mean that God wants to see us yet?

 

Well of course in one sense He always wants to see us. In another sense however it is like He has barbed wire fence around Him or like He is living in another dimension of time travel. So how do we break through that barrier?

 

By forcing our way in? By wishful thinking? One answer is we must become qualified. So how do we know when we are qualified? When Krsna wants to

see us. Here is how he decides if and when he wants to see us or not: [as explained by Master Storyteller of India, retold by one of his students to me]

 

 

 

Innumerable jivas are springing from the tatasha. Each one is like vessel of milk.

 

Do you remember the stories of gopis churning butter? Churning and churning, all day churning butter? That means that through so many

many lifetimes and tests and bitter experiences we change. We get

churned in the butter churn of samsara.

 

Then after so much churning and churning we change. What has happened?

Our hearts have become more soft. That is like the water separating and the flecks of butter appearing. Water is our tears.

 

Then gopis have to churn and churn until butter and whey are totally separated. Then they must knead the pieces of butter together. Ouch! That is more and more sufferings we experienced in samsara.

 

 

 

Now Krsna becomes somewhat curious to see what is going on. How are we coming along? He breaks the butter pots and steals some of the butter and distributes it to His friends.

 

That is our first really blissful experience we had in KC that keeps us going: the first time Krsna "broke through" the container, this shell of maya, this jar of our defenses, because He wanted to see how our heart tasted.

 

He saw us striving on the path a little and became eager to taste the rasa that is in our heart. Quickly! He snatched our heart and did not give it back. Quickly! He distributed our heart to all of His friends, "Mmmm, very good! Tasty!"

 

What to do? Now He has taken our heart.

 

 

 

Then what else happens in the Spiritual World with the milk, i.e. our hearts in the undeveloped stage? Mother Yasoda boils milk to prepare some milk sweets. Boiling, boiling, boiling the milk on the stove. Stirring, stirring, stirring it constantly.

 

That is us in samsara getting tested to the boiling point over and over again.

We have to be "cooked down" to make a milk sweet out of our heart. We

have to go through so many painful experiences just like being boiled alive.

 

Then gradually our ahamkara, ego, leaves us: the same way in which the

water leaves the condensed milk.

 

But is our heart ready to be enjoyed by Krsna yet? No. Next our hearts must be kneaded and kneaded like when a pujari is making a milk sweet. First boil down the milk. Then make curd. Then knead the curd. Over and over again.

 

 

 

Oh! That is us in samsara. Oh! So many painful experiences we have had. Being kneaded and kneaded and kneaded, over and over again. Picked up and dashed against the marble counter top milk sweet slab in the kitchen of life.

 

Oh my goodness! So after so many experiences then our heart changes. We started out as immature jivas and just very pale and thin and watery. Then in the school of samsara we change from young soul to medium soul to old soul.

 

 

 

Our hearts soften and suddenly one day reaches a point where Krsna becomes very very greedy to taste what is in our heart. That is all. That is when we get to see Krsna. It is only by His sweet will and desire that is all.

 

When we cry enough tears. That is the water escaping from the butter as it is being churned. That is the water escaping from the boiling milk: our tears.

Then when oh so many tears we have cried, enough to fill up oceans, then we are no longer a young immature soul.

 

 

 

In addition to crying tears, we then we must also do some sweet things. Only Krsna knows of the good and sweet things that we do: the sacrifices we made and the right decisions we made. Especially when the entire world mocked and ridiculed us and we thought that everyone abandoned us.

 

Those secret good acts that only God knows about are the sugar that gets added to the kneaded curd, or gets mixed into the boiling milk and cream.

 

 

 

Then one day finally our heart becomes so beautiful. At that point Krsna becomes very very greedy to taste the sweetness that is our heart. Then He snatches us up greedily: to enjoy all that sweetness and softness that is now inside our heart.

 

So while we have our different signposts that we look towards to gauge our progress, Krsna has different things that He is looking for in us, too.

[theist 1]

Just to clarify my previous post, the perfected stage is serving out of pure love for Krsna. But for most of us we are searching for an end to our suffering and confusion. In this stage in order to progress we need to understand both the material process and the horror of it as well as come to understand the true nature of the self in relation to the Supreme Lord. This will give us motivation to advance. There is no value in not being honest with ourselves about why we do what we do in sadhana-bhakti. We want something back, primarily liberation. The difference between devotees in practice and mayavadis is that we see that liberation is a necessary ingredient in pure devotional service. We see liberation as a platform upon which real bhakti takes place and not a goal in and of itself. We may even be embarrassed before the Lord knowing and acknowledging this about ourselves when we are offerring something to Krsna or chanting His names. It is humbling but it's better then approaching Krsna pretending to be beyond self-centered desires while desiring to be... say...guru.

[gHari 0]

 

There is a lovely article just posted today 10-4-06 on Chakra by Niscala dd entitled "Two Types of Brahman Realization".

 

She elucidates the same concepts as Guest in post #8 of this thread but in a more scholarly way.

 

The main points Niscala dd makes are:

 

In the KANISTHA stage we attain BRAHMAN realization

 

MADHYAMA stage we attain PARAM ATMA realization

 

UTTAMA stage we attain BHAGAVAN realization

 

Also please note that within each of these stages is a beginning, middle, and advanced stage also.

 

She describes some signposts for each stage from the standpoint of the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition.

Some seems right, yet some seems backwards like: "Thus from Paramatma realization of Bhagavan, one works upwards to Brahman realization of Bhagavan" and then "without proper cultivation of the consciousness of Paramatma and later Brahman realization, the neophyte does not progress".

 

Srila Prabhupada explains how we are all going to Krsna, and as we progress toward the goal we see Him more clearly in more detail: "He has got three features: impersonal feature, localized feature and personal feature. So brahmeti paramAtmeti bhagavAn iti zabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. All of them are the same truth, spiritual truth, but different phases or different features. The example is given, just like you see one mountain from a very distant place, very distant place, you see the hazy something like cloud. Then you come nearer, you see something green, there are trees, like that. And if you will come still nearer, you will see, 'No. It is not only trees and hazy but there are houses, there are men, there are animals.' So actually the same thing, the mountain from a distant place, but because one is far away from the mountain, he sees the same mountains are impersonal, and if he comes little nearer, then he sees ParamAtmA, personal within, present everywhere. And when he comes again still, he sees the same person is still there; He is dancing and playing. This is the difference."

 

I'm afraid I never did understand her concept of two different Brahman realizations. Maybe that was why some seemed contradictory, and alien to my understanding and experience.

[Guest guest]

 

Bartering love for release from the wheel is commerce. There is a higher sentiment, a purer love. Go further.

 

Selfless love with no expectation of reward in return, as exhibited by the gopis of Vrindavana, is the highest expression of our true nature.

 

Namaste gHari,

 

Yes, but let's look at the clear facts, that this is a realm of suffering and ignorance. This is the obvious reason why the 4 major world religions: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism, each teach people the importance of seeking release from this deluded realm.

 

In Christianity and Islam, it is taught if you do not reach God after you die, you will be in eternal darkness. In Buddhism, it is taught one should follow the path which leads to Nirvana in this precious human lifetime, or else one may stay deluded and suffering for thousands of more lifetimes. In Hinduism, it is taught Moksha is one of the 4 goals of life, and those who do not obtain release from the cycle of birth and death will continue to wander thru 8.4 million forms of life.

 

Loving God is not an option if one is reborn as a pig or an ant. Even a human birth, means nothing as far as being enlightened and truly "knowing God", as most of the 6 billion people on this planet are clearly not enlightened and none can agree who or what God is. We have huge wars going on in the world about this right now, people arguing who or what God is like and what he has said. Not even Hindus can agree on who God is. Everyone appears to be guessing.

 

So the carefree idea that we will we be reborn wherever, and just serve God, "no worries, man", does not appear to be the reality. This is why I believe one should seek to reach God, and escape this outer darkness as they teach in orthodox Hinduism, and in a more confused form in Christianity and Islam (not understanding reincarnation). To teach people it doesn't matter if they reach God or not in this lifetime, makes them ambivalent toward spiritual matters. Then they can say, "oh I it doesn't matter, I will just come back here and serve the Lord; so why should I worry about Moksha".. When infact they must just be reborn as a pig and serve the mud. Or at least in a pig stae of consciousness.

 

In the Gita it is said one who surrenders to God will reach his supreme abode and not come back to this world. The Bible says the same thing when it says Overcomers will be made stable Pillars in God's Temple and "go no more out". It even says we will become Kings and rulers in the Kingdom of God in that same book (Revelation). Jesus said, "him that overcomes will I grant power to sit with me on my throne, even as I am overcome and am sat down with my Father on his throne." According to Jesus and many, many Hindu Masters, our goal is not to come back to the realms of outer darkeness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.. but to progress spiritually until we reach the Supreme Realm, where we enjoy eternal life (as Christians say) "in Christ" - which means in Christ consciousness; or Krishna consciousness if you will.

 

Seeking God's Kingdom Here, too.

 

Peace.

[gHari 0]

And if God wanted you to be an ant for some unknown reason, would you gladly come back as an ant to please Him? This is the question. Is it about Him or is it about you and your suffering? What do you want from Him? What price have you put on your affection?

[Guest guest]

If you want to strive then "Go for it." Nobody is stopping you. If you want to be strident about it, that's your option.

 

Do you believe in God or not? God is the Controller. Not a blade of grass moves without His sanction.

 

Do you think it is all up to you or something to save everybody? Then feel free, go ahead and try to save everybody in the world then.

 

Here, I give the baton to you. Go out and be strident about it. Go shout whatever you want from the mountaintops.

 

You have oversimplified alot of things. Some things people realize with age. How old are you? What, all of 26? Then you have alot of energy to go out and convert the whole world to become God conscious, be my guest.

 

Not everybody has the same rasa as you. Not everybody has the strident mode. For one, it is a function of age. Many people on this forum were in that strident mode from age 15, 16, 17. I know I was. We dedicated everything to spread the word.

 

We followed Jesus' admonition, "Drop everything and just follow me" and "Do not worry about material things, don't the birds have enough to eat?" Yup. So you have alot of energy, it's your turn now.

 

Some of us are under doctor's orders to chill. We have heart conditions and worse from the 35 years of intense austerities spreading the word. We are fried. So it is our time to be bhajananandis now.

 

So you want to be in the spread the gospel mode, feel free. Go and do it for 35 years like we did. If you can even keep on doing it after that, more power to you. I don't know if you've noticed but we old-timers are dropping like flies.

So with age and slowing down comes a certain mellowing.

 

For example when you are dating or looking for "the one", if you are too needful you are never going to find anybody. People pick up that you are too "needy". So God is like that also. After all He is a Person.

 

If you are too neurotic and too needful about the serach for the Suipreme and "going back to God" and you approach it in a tamas guna mode or a rajas guna mode, you are just projecting all of your delusions onto God.

 

Why not approach it in a sattvic way? Well, that's easy to say when you are old and just too tired to get into rajas guna anymore and too sick and diseased to take the risks of tamas guna delights.

 

But if you want to push everything and rush everything and save all six billion people on the planet, be my guess. But as fast as you save all of them, billions more jivas are being born when Vishnu breathes out. So what about all of them? Don't you care about all of them?

 

Do you see where your hyper attitude leads? If you think you can save everyone in the world, be my guest. Also animals are not creating new karma. And how do you know that an animal can't be liberated and love God? Lord Chaitanya liberated a dog.

 

On a farm I once visited, the devotees chanted so loudly all the animals could hear it on the farm. And all the neighbors' animals. And all the trees

and insects heard it. So they were loving God. They are spirit souls, jiva-atma. Many even serving God, doing better service as an animal than as a human.

 

Animals can't create offenses. Animals can't create new karma. So it is actually riskier to be a human. Devotee prays to be born even as an insect in the house of a devotee: that is in our prayers and songs of our previous acharyas.

 

Anyway that is great: if you want to save the world then be my guest, Go out and work as hard as I did and my friends here did to save the world for 35 years. Then when you are about to drop dead from exhaustion, have some young whipper snapper rag on you to work harder and get up off your transcendental duff and go out and save the world some more.

 

You weren't my old Temple President in your past life by any chance, were you? [ha ha, just a little Hare Krsna humor there]. Anyway feel free to drop everything and work hard saving the world for four decades giving the best years of your life to it like we did. Hare Krishna.

[Guest guest]

 

So the carefree idea that we will we be reborn wherever, and just serve God, "no worries, man", does not appear to be the reality....To teach people it doesn't matter if they reach God or not in this lifetime, makes them ambivalent toward spiritual matters.

 

I'll let gHari reply to your last one, but I have to say, you've made a lot of false assumptions. Too many for me to address. Please show me where anyone is advising complacency in spiritual life? In bhakti yoga, liberation roughly corresponds with anartha-nivritti, even though there are still subtle anarthas at that stage. Beyond that, there are higher stages such as ruci, asakti, bhava, and finally, prema. Prema is the ultimate goal of life, not liberation. The desire to be liberated is certainly a motivating factor along the way, but ultimately, even that desire must be abandoned if we are truly aspiring for the attainment of krsna prema. But not to worry, Krsna always protects His devotees, even if He wills that they take another birth in this world for whatever reason (lila.)

[Guest guest]

 

And if God wanted you to be an ant for some unknown reason, would you gladly come back as an ant to please Him? This is the question. Is it about Him or is it about you and your suffering? What do you want from Him? What price have you put on your affection?

 

Does God want us to suffer as ignorant ants? or does he want us to enjoy fellowship with him in his spiritual kingdom? according to most religious people, we suffer do to our bad choices in this lifetime and previous lifetimes, not for the amusement of God. Buddha, Krishna, Jesus call us to end this suffering in the outer world and become Overcomers. Yes?

 

Perhaps we are coming at this from different angles. From my talks with Vedantists they too seek Moksha, not to be reincarnated and stay in Samsaric suffering and delusion for uncountable more lifetimes. I certainly know Christians, Muslims and Buddhists seek to never come back to this realm; with the exception of the Bodhisattva vow in Mahayana Buddhism.

 

Where does it say that in the Gita, the Bible, the Koran, the Dhammapada, that we should seek to come back as ant? all these books talk about entering eternal life/nirvana, whatever you want to call it..

 

Jesus said we should seek to be overcomers, Buddha said we should seek to reach Nirvana, and God says in the Gita we should surrender to him as our refuge, and then we will enter his supreme abode, where no one ever returns to this realm.

 

This is my understanding, that I should use this precious lifetime, to seek to return to God's eternal kingdom.

[Guest guest]

 

If you want to strive then "Go for it." Nobody is stopping you. If you want to be strident about it, that's your option.

 

Do you believe in God or not? God is the Controller. Not a blade of grass moves without His sanction.

 

Do you think it is all up to you or something to save everybody? Then feel free, go ahead and try to save everybody in the world then.

 

Here, I give the baton to you. Go out and be strident about it. Go shout whatever you want from the mountaintops.

 

You have oversimplified alot of things. Some things people realize with age. How old are you? What, all of 26? Then you have alot of energy to go out and convert the whole world to become God conscious, be my guest.

 

Not everybody has the same rasa as you. Not everybody has the strident mode. For one, it is a function of age. Many people on this forum were in that strident mode from age 15, 16, 17. I know I was. We dedicated everything to spread the word.

 

We followed Jesus' admonition, "Drop everything and just follow me" and "Do not worry about material things, don't the birds have enough to eat?" Yup. So you have alot of energy, it's your turn now.

 

Some of us are under doctor's orders to chill. We have heart conditions and worse from the 35 years of intense austerities spreading the word. We are fried. So it is our time to be bhajananandis now.

 

So you want to be in the spread the gospel mode, feel free. Go and do it for 35 years like we did. If you can even keep on doing it after that, more power to you. I don't know if you've noticed but we old-timers are dropping like flies.

So with age and slowing down comes a certain mellowing.

 

For example when you are dating or looking for "the one", if you are too needful you are never going to find anybody. People pick up that you are too "needy". So God is like that also. After all He is a Person.

 

If you are too neurotic and too needful about the serach for the Suipreme and "going back to God" and you approach it in a tamas guna mode or a rajas guna mode, you are just projecting all of your delusions onto God.

 

Why not approach it in a sattvic way? Well, that's easy to say when you are old and just too tired to get into rajas guna anymore and too sick and diseased to take the risks of tamas guna delights.

 

But if you want to push everything and rush everything and save all six billion people on the planet, be my guess. But as fast as you save all of them, billions more jivas are being born when Vishnu breathes out. So what about all of them? Don't you care about all of them?

 

Do you see where your hyper attitude leads? If you think you can save everyone in the world, be my guest. Also animals are not creating new karma. And how do you know that an animal can't be liberated and love God? Lord Chaitanya liberated a dog.

 

On a farm I once visited, the devotees chanted so loudly all the animals could hear it on the farm. And all the neighbors' animals. And all the trees

and insects heard it. So they were loving God. They are spirit souls, jiva-atma. Many even serving God, doing better service as an animal than as a human.

 

Animals can't create offenses. Animals can't create new karma. So it is actually riskier to be a human. Devotee prays to be born even as an insect in the house of a devotee: that is in our prayers and songs of our previous acharyas.

 

Anyway that is great: if you want to save the world then be my guest, Go out and work as hard as I did and my friends here did to save the world for 35 years. Then when you are about to drop dead from exhaustion, have some young whipper snapper rag on you to work harder and get up off your transcendental duff and go out and save the world some more.

 

You weren't my old Temple President in your past life by any chance, were you? [ha ha, just a little Hare Krsna humor there]. Anyway feel free to drop everything and work hard saving the world for four decades giving the best years of your life to it like we did. Hare Krishna.

 

Who mentioned anything about saving everyone in the world? Such is an impossiblity, and no Hindu believes that to be a reasonable task to undertake. The Bodhisattvas of Buddhism make such a vow, to help them develop a heart of compassion for all, but they also recognize not all will be reach Nirvana at once. Certainly Hindu-dharma recognizes that souls are in various stages of their evolution, and that moksha is an individual attainment, not a group phenomena. Some souls are many lifetimes away from liberation, while some are very advanced on the path, and will escape Samsara in this lifetime.

 

I take it you are a Hare Krishna? I'm sure you know this, but as a reminder, the Hare Krishna sect is only one Vedic sect and does not speak for all Hindus on these matters. Vedanta emphasizes seeking liberation, not being reborn as an insect. Even Sri Vaishnavas teach that Moksha is a goal of life. So not all Hindus believe that we should not desire to enter God's Kingdom this lifetime. Many Hindu acharyas have taught their shishyas that God can be reached in this lifetime if they are faitiful in their sadhana..

[gHari 0]

From the Teachings of Lord Kapila [16.37]

 

atho vibhUtiM mama mAyAvinas tAm

 

aizvaryam aSTAGgam anupravRttam

 

zriyaM bhAgavatIM vAspRhayanti bhadrAM

 

parasya me te 'znuvate tu loke

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

Thus because he is completely absorbed in meditation upon Me, the devotee does not desire even the highest benediction obtainable in the upper planetary systems, including Satyaloka. He does not desire the eight material perfections obtained from mystic yoga, nor does he desire to be elevated to the kingdom of God. Yet even without desiring them, the devotee enjoys, even in this life, all the offered benedictions.

 

 

PURPORT

 

[...]

 

According to Caitanya MahAprabhu, RUpa GosvAmI in his Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu, NArada Muni in the NArada-paJcarAtra and BhagavAn SrI KRSNa in Bhagavad-gItA, a pure devotee never wants anything from the Lord. He does not even want liberation, to say nothing of material things. Generally, people want dharma, artha, kAma and mokSa, in that order. First of all, people want to become religious (dharma) in order to attain material opulence (artha). People want material opulence in order to gratify their senses (kAma), and when they are frustrated in their attempt to gratify their senses, they want liberation (mokSa). In this way, dharma, artha, kAma and mokSa are going on. However, a devotee is not interested in any of these.

http://vedabase.net/sb/4/22/35/en

 

http://vedabase.net/tlc/15/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/1/91/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/7/84/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/7/144/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/8/90/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/12/135/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/19/17/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/19/216/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/19/176/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/antya/8/27/en

[Guest guest]

I think what everyone is trying to say is that in Gaudiya Vaisnavism yes by all means there is an admonition on the mystical level that all religionists can agree with. The term is called "prapatti" or full surrender. One does his level best to engage body, mind, and words first in the search for the Divine then in the service of the Divine.

 

This would be the equivalent of what Jesus considered to be His most important instruction/ prayer: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." It would also correspond with all the different religions that you mentioned and their idea that we should strive with all of our being and make good use of "this precious form of human life".

 

On top of that there is an additional concept in Hinduism as well as Gaudiya Vaisnavism called "prapatti". To the best of my understanding, this concept means that you do the very best that you can, based on all of the sober-minded admonitions that you described which all of the world's religions agree upon. Then after having done your level best, you "Let Go and Let God."

 

You have firm faith that God will take care of you. One teacher explained it this way: "surrender" doesn't mean that you wave the whote flag and say "I surrender! I give up!" I don't think anyone here is advocating that one give up on the quest for enlightenment, however one conceives of it to be in his or her own religion.

 

The term "prapatti", to the best of my understanding, means that after having given 200% in service to the Divine, and THEN some more on top of that, and we spend a lifetime doing that, then we surrender the results of that to the Supreme Absolute Truth. After that point we trust Him to do what is best for us on the path to liberation and beyond.

 

It is a feeling of trust versus giving up. For example when two lovers surrender to each other then it's not like "well I don't care...whatever..I give up...why do I even want to make love to you in the first place? Let's just call it a day and turn on the TV." That would be the "surrender" of "giving up".

 

Surrender as "prapatti" means to give of yourself totally and completely. You want to please the other person and be mindful of the other person and make them happy 24/7/365 and it is a two way street. You do only things that will

enhance your time together and you look forward to being with the other person someday if you are separated.

 

The Gaudiya expression of "not caring" if we attain liberation or not or "not caring" if we see God face to face or "not caring" if even God wants us to be reborn as an insect or not is coming from a stance of humility. As such it is

a concept that a Gaudiya understands as "second nature".

 

The impetus for this concept came from Lord Chaitanya who only left eight verses as His contribution to world devotional literature. One verse says that

"You may crush me in Your embrace or make me broken-hearted by not being present before me. But You will always be my Lord birth after birth."

 

I'm sorry if this presents a problem for you or if I have not expressed myself correctly. The basic thing that I am trying to say is that in both Hinduism in general and Gaudiya Vaisnavism specifically there is the idea of "prapatti" or full surrender and if I am not mistaken, part of "full surrender" means we do the very best that we can and then since we are not God the Controller then

we let go at some point and trust Him.

 

We trust that after we have done our best then when we leave our body He will make happen whatver is in our best interest. So we don't worry about it or freak out about it excessively or even talk about it that much. One Gaudiya teacher AC Bhaktivedanta Swami said, "First deserve, then desire."

 

So you are correct, we need to strive diligently on the path FIRST. But then

after one has spent a lifetime in striving and is on one death bed or at the brink of death at any moment, then we "Let Go and Let God". We trust that whatever He wants for us will be the best thing. It is in fact similar to the Bodhisattva vow.

 

Peace be with you.