Books and Living Sadhus

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Reply to HH Murali Krsna Svami

 

BY: LOKAGURU DAS

 

 

 

Jul 9, USA (SUN) —

Dear Murali Krsna Svami, Dandavats. All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Please accept my humble obeisances. I have read your reply to Bhagavat prabhu's article. Why do you feel that Bhagavat prabhu is not surrendered to the order of his guru. HDG Srila Prabhupada explains the necessity of hearing from a pure devotee. CC Antya 5.131:

”If you want to understand Srimad Bhagavatam, he said, you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.”

The present tense along with the word “must” is used exclusively, meaning that this process should be done now(in the present) and there is no choice, it has to be done.

 

 

Also, SB 4.20.24-25: (24)

“My dear Lord, I therefore do not wish to have the benediction of merging into Your existence, a benediction in which there is no existence of the nectarian beverage of Your lotus feet. I want the benediction of at least one million ears, for thus I may be able to hear about the glories of Your lotus feet from the mouths of Your pure devotees”;(25) “My dear Lord, You are glorified by the selected verses uttered by great personalities. Such glorification of Your lotus feet is just like saffron particles. When the transcendental vibration from the mouths of great devotees carries the aroma of the saffron dust of Your lotus feet, the forgetful living entity gradually remembers his eternal relationship with You. Devotees thus gradually come to right conclusion about the value of life. My dear Lord, I therefore do not need any other benediction but the opportunity to hear from the mouth of Your pure devotee.”</B>

 

 

In SB 4.20.24-25

(Translations and purports), Srila Prabhupada states

15 times

that we must hear from the mouth of a pure devotee and each sentence is in the present tense(do it now). These are eternal instructions and also very specific instructions to each of us. HDG Gaura Govinda Maharaja also explains in A Living Sadhu: (Chapter Six of Pariprasna: The Process of Inquiry: ..”

 

 

Devotee:

Srila Prabhupada always emphasized that he was eternally present in his books, instructions, tapes, and letters. So when you say we should take association of a sadhu can we do that through Srila Prabhupada's books? Present in His Books

 

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami:

If Prabhupada says he is there, then you try to see him, associate with him and listen from him. Do you see Prabhupada? Is he speaking to you?

 

 

Devotee:

Through his books.

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami:

Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through books. This is not a new thing. This is our Vaisnava procedure. But you should see him. Can you see Bhaktivinoda Thakur? Can you see Jiva Goswami ? You may say, "Oh I have read their books, I have their association." That won't help you. You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books. Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, "We need only to read books. There is no need of association with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu? No, there is no sadhu at all."

 

 

Seeing is Believing

 

 

Your motto is, "Seeing is believing." You cannot see, so you cannot believe. Because you are a conditioned soul your vision is defective. You cannot see a sadhu. Krsna is there, can you see him? No, you cannot, because you are not endowed with proper vision. First develop the proper vision and then you can see Krsna. Then you can see how a sadhu is there. It is not a fact that sadhus are not present. How is everything going on? How does the sun rise, the wind blow, and Indra give rain? All these things are going on. No sadhu? No Krsna? It's nonsense, foolishness. We are so proud and puffed up. We are identifying our self as the body, mind and false ego. We think we are very great. So we say "Oh there is no sadhu." We are in the category of identification with the body and mind. We have not come to the beginning of the stage of purity. No!

 

 

Devotee

: So we have to associate with a living sadhu?

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami

: Definitely. There is always one there. But he is not a cheap person. Such a person is very rare. If you can get his mercy then you can see him. Otherwise, by your own effort and perception you cannot see him. No, no, no. You always think that you are drasta, the seer, and that the sadhu is drsta, the one to be seen. Everyone is like this. They think they are the seers. But it is just the reverse. You are to are to be seen and they are the seer! Think this over very deeply. I think you cannot completely understand what I say. We always think that we are the seer and that they are to be seen, but this is not a fact. It is just the reverse. They are the seers and we are to be seen.

 

 

Merciful Glance

 

 

How are we seen by the sadhu, by our service?

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami:

Yes. The sadhu is the seer. If he showers his mercy upon you, he sees you. If you receive that merciful glance then you are very fortunate. However, you are in the category of bodily consciousness. How can you have it? Guru is the manifestation of the Supersoul, caitya-guru in the heart. He manifests a body and appears. He knows your heart.

 

 

Devotee:

I don't quite understand.

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami:

Yes, try to understand. As I told you, just hear patiently. A new bhakta cannot understand it because it is a topic of the highest class. You are in pre-primary class, how can you understand? You are not even in the primary class. How can you understand this topic of the highest class? Just accept the bona fide authorities. That will help you. The teacher says, "Two plus two is four." The primary school student accepts it. If the teacher asks the child, "What is two plus two?" The child will reply, "Two plus two is four.Why is two plus two four? My teacher says." He will answer like this. That means he has accepted authority. This is the only principle in the beginning. How is two plus two four? Why not three or five? That will be explained in a higher mathematics class, not in the beginning. You have to have patience and get a promotion. My guru maharaj says in his purport that the beginning is purity of consciousness. First come to this beginning stage, then gradually other things will come up. You are not in the beginning stage so how will the higher topics come up? This is a very, very subtle and very deep philosophy.

 

 

Putting full faith in the sadhu you need only submissively hear --- sravanam, sravanam, sravanam. In that way you can get the mercy of that sadhu. That will help you. Only one thing is required, nothing else --- sravanam, sravanam, sravanam. Just hear. Serve that sadhu, please him, hear submissively, surrender yourself at his lotus feet and submissively ask questions. Out of mercy the sadhu will impart tattva-jnana to you.

 

 

This is the only process.

 

 

Unless you get association with a living sadhu, what can you do? Will you put some question to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada will answer you? This process is a living thing, it is always there, it is always current. It is not that inquiry was done a certain way in the past and now things are done differently. No! It is an eternal process, pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya."...

 

 

And from Page 113-114:

Blind Leading the Blind

 

 

...“Devotee:

What if a devotee is initiated but he has not reached the stage of nista. Should he accept guidance from a superior Vaisnava?

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami:

Yes, they are teachers-siksa-guru.

 

 

Devotee:

If one thinks I have my guru already, like Prabhupada, and I don't need any guidance?

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami:

No, the moment this enters you are finished! You are welcoming your fall down. If one is not free from anarthas, how can he lead? He is a blind man. If a blind man is leading another blind man all will fall into a ditch, finished! The leader falls then the followers fall. This is going on.”...

 

 

The real issue here is that Bhagavat prabhu has quoted some sastra to make a point. You, Maharaj, have also quoted from the same sastras to counteract his points and to make your own different points. I am quoting from the same sastras to counteract your points. Which of us is correct? Are there apparent differences within the body of Srila Prabhupada's books and classes? Are there apparent differences within Srila Gaura Govinda's books and classes? There must be apparent differences otherwise why would so many serious devotees arrive at differing conclusions when studying the same sastras and lectures. This is why we place our selves under the guidance of living pure devotees(parampara).

 

 

The uttama devotee compassionately reconciles or harmonizes any apparent contradictions and in the process elevates our unworthy selves through His divine instructions. Bhagavat prabhu has not left ISKON. He is following the orders that Srila Prabhupada has given to him and is giving him. Bhagavat prabhu is placing himself under the guidance of a pure devotee so that he can receive the mercy of His Divine Grace and become fully realized. He is following in the footsteps of Srila Prabhupada who, when asked by Guru das, while they were standing in Srila Prabhupada's rooms in Sri Sri Radha Damorhara Mandhira, why He (SP) didn't come to the west earlier than 1965, Srila Prabhupada replied that ”I was preparing to preach” (told to me by Guru das in Sri Sri Radha Damodhara Mandhira in March, 1977).

 

 

Bhagavat prabhu has been very strictly following for several years, not wasting even a moment (his friends know this). Fourteen months ago he severed his marital ties, giving his wife everything. As for Srila Prabhupada being happy or unhappy with Bhagavat prabhu: The only ones who know this are Bhagavat prabhu, Srila Prabhupada, and any pure devotee that Bhagavat prabhu is taking shelter of .

 

 

Finally, if you think that Srila Narayana Maharaja is just a sadhu who only processes some jnana, you are very mistaken. Srila Narayana Maharaja is an uttama bhakta. He is a transparent via medium of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. This type of knowledge will always remain hidden from us until we learn to continuously beg our Guru Maharaja to be merciful to our worthless selves. I am also begging, please don't criticize any devotee, what to speak of a pure devotee who has dedicated His life to propagating the holy names.

 

Once upon a time I listened to several GBC and sanyasis and refused to personally hear from Srila Gaura Govinda. In His absence I have tried unsuccessfully to beg His forgiveness. Please, don't make my mistake. I am fully unqualified in all respects. If I have made any errors or made some offense to you please try to excuse and forgive me. Sincerely, Your servant, Lokaguru das

 

 

Response to Lokaguru Das

 

BY: PRAGHOSA DASA (ACBSP)

 

 

 

Jul 10, NEW YORK CITY (SUN) —

Just a short note to Lokaguru and his supporters. I wish to extend to you my condolences prabhu. Quite obviously - you imagine that Srila Prabhupada cannot be understood by the simple honest act of hearing from him in each and every page of his books. While I find articles like yours - offered by various men who have been "touched" by the likes of HH Narayana Swami and now much to my surprise, HH Gaur Govinda Swami, unpleasant - I also find them essentially meaningless.

 

 

Your protest is like a man who derives no pleasure or lasting satisfaction from drinking a cool dhab and then claims that not only does he not derive any benefit there - no one else can either. Sorry prabhu...most men and women who thirst for Krsna Consciousness as it is delivered by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada through his Bhaktivedanta Purports experience life as a "Thrill at every moment" when we come together and hear from Srila Prabhupada. We understand Krsna Consciousness very nicely as a consequence of Srila Prabhupada's early morning sessions with his trusty Dictaphone!

 

 

Your protest is merely an admission that you want something more than the company of those who adore Lord Krsna as He was delivered by Srimati Radharani's dearmost emissary Srila Prabhupada. You are free to seek out any such association. However, claiming that you have done so - in order that you might now understand Srila Prabhupada because his physical absence has rendered him and Krsna Consciousness - out of reach to not only yourself - but everyone - is bogus. You may claim this for yourself - but to claim it ABSOLUTELY for everyone - is simply ignorant and arrogant. And quoting HH Gaur Govinda Swami as having having affirmed this - does not CONFIRM it. It only casts his understanding as deficient.

 

 

We don't claim that you cannot find merit in your chosen "Messiahs" but merely because you cannot find Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krsna - precisely where he left himself and the Lord - FULLY AVAILABLE does not mean no one else can.

 

 

Besides - nonsense statements by HH Gaur Govinda Swami - that either imply or directly support your inability - only lead to the inevitable question: "Since Gaur Govinda Goswami directly stated that one cannot approach the Lord through Srila Prabhupada's books - who was HIS living guru?"

 

 

Surely he was not telling you that "OTHERS need this - but I do not"? Any man who would do this cannot verify his claim in any way. Perhaps some men will inhale this nonsense - but I am certain that most will not..simply because just as when you have eaten your fill - you do not require someone to confirm this - similarly when you are fully content with Srila Prabhupada - the protests of men like yourself that "Srila Prabhupada cannot be understood - unless he is explained by the likes of a Gaur Govinda Goswami or Narayana Swami" will fall on the ears of men who are already full with the nectar of His Divine GRace Srila Prabhupada and will have no effect at all.

 

 

Loving, chaste, and satisfied devotees of Srila Prabhupada would sooner loose Sonny Liston in a bowl of rice - than they would their ability to find Srila Prabhupada, the Acharyas and the Lord Himself - in ALL His manifestations - in the Divine Words and Servants of Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

We should all pray that this understanding of Srila Prabhupada saturates this world and all its inhabitants!!!

 

 

All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

With respect

 

Praghosa Das ACBSP (NYC)

 

 

[Beggar 0]

I find it interesting that the first author identifies himself by his initiated name only. The second author who wraps himself so tightly in the flag of Srila Prabhupada identifies himself as his initiated name plus ACBSP in parenthesis. It's worth noting that the first author, Loka Guru Prabhu is also a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Where in any article, book or letter did Srila Prabhupada identify himself as Bhaktivedanta Swami (BSST)? Then one must ask why is it that one who advertises himself as a "chaste" disciple of Srila Prabhupada has gone along with a concocted invention using the designation, (ACBSP), after his initiated name? The answer is self evident: He is free to misinterpret his spiritual master's instructions because he has no guidance other than his mind and the mind of other confused neophytes. Here is more proof that the living guidance of a sadhu is needed at every step on the path of bhakti, unless you are that sadhu.

[theist 1]

 

I find it interesting that the first author identifies himself by his initiated name only. The second author who wraps himself so tightly in the flag of Srila Prabhupada identifies himself as his initiated name plus ACBSP in parenthesis. It's worth noting that the first author, Loka Guru Prabhu is also a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Where in any article, book or letter did Srila Prabhupada identify himself as Bhaktivedanta Swami (BSST)? Then one must ask why is it that one who advertises himself as a "chaste" disciple of Srila Prabhupada has gone along with a concocted invention using the designation, (ACBSP), after his initiated name? The answer is self evident: He is free to misinterpret his spiritual master's instructions because he has no guidance other than his mind and the mind of other confused neophytes. Here is more proof that the living guidance of a sadhu is needed at every step on the path of bhakti, unless you are that sadhu.

 

Self evident to you because you are projecting your conclusion on to this person's motive.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

In another discussion on the Sampradaya Sun about child abuse and the gurukulas, Vinode Vani devi dasi says, "I find the sarcastic, condescending tone and language of Praghosa prabhu's (ACBSP) letters to be disturbing." I personally find the same mood in his, "Response to Loka Guru". It seems like a tactic to try to destroy the faith of those who do not accept your or your camps interpretation of Krsna Consciousness. Loka Guru Prabhu is just promoting the ideas of his gurus and if it is contradicting other viewpoints, so be it. On the other hand Praghosa Prabhu seems to be in the mood of smashing those who have other viewpoints and interpretations. This might be the tactic that Srila Prabhupada took with mayavadi's but never with other devotees of Krsna in the same line. Particularly disturbing is the tact of making everyone who does not agree with his ideas as somehow unchaste to Srila Prabhupada. Maybe we can't act like a madhyama adhikari but at least we can give up the kannistha mood and begin to think like one.

[Guest guest]

 

I find it interesting that the first author identifies himself by his initiated name only. The second author who wraps himself so tightly in the flag of Srila Prabhupada identifies himself as his initiated name plus ACBSP in parenthesis. It's worth noting that the first author, Loka Guru Prabhu is also a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Where in any article, book or letter did Srila Prabhupada identify himself as Bhaktivedanta Swami (BSST)? Then one must ask why is it that one who advertises himself as a "chaste" disciple of Srila Prabhupada has gone along with a concocted invention using the designation, (ACBSP), after his initiated name? The answer is self evident: He is free to misinterpret his spiritual master's instructions because he has no guidance other than his mind and the mind of other confused neophytes. Here is more proof that the living guidance of a sadhu is needed at every step on the path of bhakti, unless you are that sadhu.

 

Don't be so critical of Praghosa.

There are at least two devotees of that name that are known on the web.

 

If he designates himself as (ACBSP), then that is just to make it clear which Praghosa is the author.

 

Personally, I think the presentation of Praghosa is a very good example of the kind of disciple and ISKCON devotee that Srila Prabhupada would be most pleased with.

[Beggar 0]

Guru Is Not a Doll

But at the same time we offer reverence to gurudeva, we must not conceive that the, guru is a doll, a lifeless figure. Because we are familiar with a particular figure and accept that as our guru we should not become misled. The important thing is what he says, his instructions. That is attracting our inner hearts. I am not this body. I am the inquirer. That thing which is satisfying me, drawing the inquirer to the inquired--I must try to locate that thing in him. I must not rely on material calculation. I am not this body. Who am I, the disciple? Am I only this body, this figure, this color, this caste? Or am I this temperament, this scholarship and intellectualism? No. I am he who has come to seek. Who is the party within me, and who is the party in guru? We must be fully awake to that. What is the inner thing? I have come for that. We must be awake to our own interest.

There is the relative principle and the absolute principle. We shall have to eliminate the form, ignore the form; we shall always have to keep the spirit. Otherwise, we become form worshipers, idol worshipers.

 

Guru: More than Meets the Eye

It is said, of course, that the connection with the spiritual master is eternal (caksudana dilo yei, janme janme prabhu sei ). But we must not identify our guru with the appearance we perceive with our physical senses. Our inner identification of him will be clarified according to the growth of our vision. When our vision increases and takes shape from material to transcendental, his look will also change accordingly.

A man is sometimes known most externally, by his uniform, and then by his body, then by his mind, then by his intelligence. As much as our eye will develop to see things rightly, what we are seeing will also change its face. Krsna says, acaryam mam vijaniyan, "Ultimately it is I who am the acarya. " It is the function of divinity, and in different stages there may be different forms. Different acaryas may work at the same time. The knowledge, the ideal, is growing from subtle to gross. And the depth of the vision of the eye will disclose the different figures of the different acaryas. It will go in different rasas to the highest position, by a gradual process of realization. Otherwise our knowledge will be based on the material conception. And to force the material conception onto divinity is a crime, it is ignorance, it is erroneous.

We have to free ourselves from the snare of identifying reality with the physical form presented to our senses. The eyes deceive us; they cannot give us the proper form or color. The ears cannot give us the proper sound. The concrete reality is beyond the experience of our senses. So, then what is that thing? Because we are in such a low position, we can gradually go there to the inner world only with the help of our guru.

But how can we recognize our guru? Sometimes in the winter he wears a particular dress, and in the summer he wears another dress. If we attach so much importance to the external dress, then what should we do? Should we think that the dress is indispensible to the body? The guru may come to us in a particular body. Suppose the guru appears as a young man. When he has become an old man, and the young form has grown into another form, how are we to recognize him? How are we to differentiate? Again, in one birth, he may have come in a particular body, and another time, he may appear in a different body. The same guru may appear differently at different times. How are we to recognize him? From the external consideration we must go to the internal.

If I am devoid of flesh and blood, and I exist only in a subtle body, then I shall also find my guru there, in a subtle body. The demigods, gandharvas, and siddhas, the perfected beings in the heavenly planets, also have their gurus, but they do not have a material body, nor does their guru have a material body.

So, by eliminating the external conception, we have to enter into the internal, and that will be all-important to a progressive disciple. That does not mean that one should disregard the physical form of our guru. But the real importance is within. We must worship the remnants of the guru, his coat, his boot, his sandal. But that does not mean that his shoe is superior to his body; we must serve his person. In a similar way, if we are eager to do some physical service for him, if we want to massage his feet, but he does not desire that, and says, "No, no, no," then should we do that? Our internal obedience to him will be higher. In this way, we have to make progress from the gross to the subtle.

Who is guru? Where is he to be located? What is his ideal? What does he really want me to do? These things must not be dismissed from our ears. We must not give only formal adherence. We want the spiritual way. The spiritual man is going to the spiritual world to have the spiritual realization. It is all a spiritual transaction. And all conceptions of mundane, whether physical, mental, or intellectual, should be eliminated in our journey if we want to go to the inner world of substance.

[Guest guest]

"Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else’s.

 

There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others.

 

In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:

 

tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

 

"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth."

 

Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly. . . "

 

Abhay Charan Das

[early name of His Divine Grace Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada]

Given originally as an address before the

Members of the Sri Gaudiya Math, Bombay

Circa February l936

[Kulapavana 0]

 

"There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others.. . . "

 

Abhay Charan Das

[early name of His Divine Grace Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada]

Given originally as an address before the

Members of the Sri Gaudiya Math, Bombay

Circa February l936

 

there are very few similar quotes in all of his works written or spoken later in the West... all that perhaps because his disciples were bound to misunderstand that concept and look at people like Maharishi and Prabhupada as one and the same manifestation of Sri Guru...

[Guest guest]

 

there are very few similar quotes in all of his works written or spoken later in the West... all that perhaps because his disciples were bound to misunderstand that concept and look at people like Maharishi and Prabhupada as one and the same manifestation of Sri Guru...

 

Good point.

I don't really think Srila Prabhupada would approve of taking these things that he spoke to a different audience of a different time for a specific reason and introducing them into his ISKCON siksha.

 

As far as I know, Srila Prabhupada never introduced the message we are referring to his disciples.

 

This was something that devotees gathered and publicized without approval or knowledge of Srila Prabhupada.

 

We could also go back to when Prabhupada was a chemist and a family man, yet a disciple of Saraswati Goswami, and say that we should all follow his example and be chemists making ointments and potions.

 

We should focus on what Prabhupada gave to ISKCON and not go digging around for things that he never authorized or issued to ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

If you think Srila Prabhupada "altered" his realization about guru tattva just because he started his own preaching mission then you are incorrect. Such sectarian thinking is not what we find in His Divine Grace's books. One small example of many, many others is in the purport to Cc. Adi 1.35:

 

". . . The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.. . . Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding."

[Guest guest]

 

If you think Srila Prabhupada "altered" his realization about guru tattva just because he started his own preaching mission then you are incorrect.

 

Agreed.

That is why he said:

 

The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly. . . "

 

In the same way, Srila Prabhupada was NOT simply ONE out of many differening exponents of the truth or of a sectarion institution, but is the JAGAD-GURU - the guru of ALL, especially the guru of all ISKCON devotees.

 

Srila Prabhupada was NOT saying that there were many different gurus.

He was saying that there was ONE guru who was the JAGAD GURU.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Srila Prabhupada was NOT saying that there were many different gurus.

He was saying that there was ONE guru who was the JAGAD GURU.

 

in that passage SP is presenting the ancient Vedic concept of akhanda guru tattva. one should study it to get a better understanding of these matters.

[krsna 3]

 

Cc. Adi 1.35:

 

". . . . . Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding."[/quote]

[Guest guest]

" In the Srimad- Bhagavatam (11.17.27) it is said:

 

acaryam mam vijaniyan

navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta

sarva-deva mayoguruh

 

"One should understand the spiritual master to be as good as I am," said the Blessed Lord. "Nobody should be jealous of the spiritual master or think of him as an ordinary man, because the spiritual master is the sum total of all demigods."

 

That is, the acarya has been identified with God Himself. He has nothing to do with the affairs of this mundane world. He appears before us to reveal the light of the Vedas and to bestow upon us the blessing of full-fledged freedom, after which we should hanker at every step of our life’s journey.

 

The transcendental knowledge of the Vedas was first uttered by God to Brahma, the creator of this particular universe. From Brahma the knowledge descended to Narada, from Narada to Vyasadeva, from Vyasadeva to Madhva, and in this process of disciplic succession the transcendental knowledge was transmitted by one disciple to another till it reached Lord Gauranga, Sri Krsna Caitanya, who posed as the disciple and successor of Sri Isvara Puri. The present acaryadeva is the tenth disciplic representative from Sri Rupa Goswami, the original representative of Lord Caitanya who preached this transcendental tradition in its fullness. The knowledge that we receive from our gurudeva is not different from that imparted by God Himself and the succession of the acaryas in the preceptorial line of Brahma. We adore this auspicious day as Sri Vyasa-puja-tithi because the acarya is the living representative of Vyasadeva, the divine compiler of the Vedas, Puranas, Bhagavad-Gita, Mahabharata and Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

One, who interprets the divine sound, or sabdha brahma, by his imperfect sense perception, cannot be a real spiritual guru, because, in the absence of proper disciplinary training under the bona fide acarya, the interpreter is sure to differ from Vyasadeva (as the Mayavadis do). Srila Vyasadeva is the prime authority of Vedic revelation, and therefore such an irrelevant interpreter cannot be accepted as the guru, or acarya, howsoever equipped he may be with all the acquirements of material knowledge. As it is said in the Padma Purana:

 

sampradaya-ivhina ye mantras te nisphala matah

 

"Unless you are initiated by a bona fide spiritual mater in the disciplic succession, the mantra that you might has received is without any effect."

 

On the other hand, now who has received the transcendental knowledge by aural reception form the bona fide preceptor in the disciplic chain, and who has sincere regard for the real acarya, must needs be enlightened with the revealed knowledge of the Vedas. But this knowledge is permanently sealed to the cognitive approach of the empiricists. As it is said in the Svetasvatara Upanishad (6.23):

 

yasya deve para bhaktir

yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hyarthah

prakasante mahatmanah

 

"Only unto those great souls who simultaneously have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of the Vedic knowledge automatically revealed."

 

Gentlemen, our knowledge is so poor, our senses are so imperfect, and our sources are so limited that it is not possible for us to have even the slightest knowledge of the absolute region without surrendering ourselves at the lotus feet of Sri Vyasadeva or his bona fide representative. Every moment we are being deceived by the knowledge of our direct perception. It is all the creation or concoction of the mind, which is always deceiving, changing and flickering. We cannot know anything of the transcendental region by our limited, perverted method of observation and experiment. But all of us can lend our eager ears for the aural reception of the transcendental sound transmitted from that region to this, through the unadulterated medium of sri gurudeva or Sri Vyasadeva. Therefore, gentlemen, we should surrender ourselves today at the feet of the representative of Sri Vyasadeva for the elimination of all our differences bred by our unsubmissive attitude. It is accordingly said in the Bhagavad-Gita (4.34):

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva darsinah

 

"Just approach the wise and bona fide spiritual master. Surrender unto him first and try to understand him by inquiries and service. Such a wise spiritual master will enlighten you with transcendental knowledge, for he has already known the Absolute Truth."

 

To receive transcendental knowledge, we must completely surrender ourselves to the real acarya in a spirit of ardent inquiry and service. Actual performance of service to the Absolute under the guidance of the acarya is the only vehicle by which we can assimilate transcendental knowledge. Today’s meeting for offering our humble services and homage to the feet of the acaryadeva will enable us to be favored with the capacity of assimilating the transcendental knowledge so kindly transmitted by him to all persons without distinction. . . "

[theist 1]

 

From "Sri Guru and His Grace", Srila Sridhar Maharaja <HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

Guru Is Not a Doll

But at the same time we offer reverence to gurudeva, we must not conceive that the, guru is a doll, a lifeless figure. Because we are familiar with a particular figure and accept that as our guru we should not become misled. The important thing is what he says, his instructions. That is attracting our inner hearts.

 

Beggar's post #6 was really nice. Right on point. After Srila Prabhupada left his disciples were forced to learn to appreciate his continued presence in his instructions, which is "the important thing". In doing so their inner hearts are still being attracted to Krsna.

[Guest guest]

 

From "Sri Guru and His Grace", Srila Sridhar Maharaja

Guru Is Not a Doll

But at the same time we offer reverence to gurudeva, we must not conceive that the, guru is a doll, a lifeless figure. Because we are familiar with a particular figure and accept that as our guru we should not become misled. The important thing is what he says, his instructions. That is attracting our inner hearts.

 

 

 

Beggar's post #6 was really nice. Right on point. After Srila Prabhupada left his disciples were forced to learn to appreciate his continued presence in his instructions, which is "the important thing". In doing so their inner hearts are still being attracted to Krsna.

 

If we follow the line of thinking given by Sridhar Maharaj, then we also have to accept that the guru is not the animated body of a "living guru" either.

 

Being near the stool passing, mucus coughing, arthritis troubled body of a guru is no big advantage.

 

Sridhar Maharaj said that siksha is most important, so that also discredits this "living guru" concept that is being promoted by "living sadhus" of today.

[Guest guest]

 

Being near the stool passing, mucus coughing, arthritis troubled body of a guru is no big advantage.

 

<i>One who considers the (bonafide) spiritual master to be an ordinary man is considered to possess a hellish mentality.</i>

 

Everything about the Guru is Cintamani, spiritual substance. Vani is important, no one is denying this. Hearing the sound vibration from Sri Guru's lotus mouth is highly beneficial. But of course, if you see Guru in mundane light, then better you remain at a distance so as not to commit offense.

[Guest guest]

 

<i>One who considers the (bonafide) spiritual master to be an ordinary man is considered to possess a hellish mentality.</i>

 

Everything about the Guru is Cintamani, spiritual substance. Vani is important, no one is denying this. Hearing the sound vibration from Sri Guru's lotus mouth is highly beneficial. But of course, if you see Guru in mundane light, then better you remain at a distance so as not to commit offense.

 

But, if we take this idea to extremes we will end up collecting the stool of the spiritual master and doing sevapuja to it.

 

There has to be a line between vani and vapu worship.

 

Vapu worship most often ends up as idol worship.

 

Even in ISKCON, the murti of Prabhupada is worshipped NOT as the spiritual master, but as his representation, which is actually idol worship.

 

There are dead idols and there are living idols.

 

We should not worship idols, but worship the spiritual master.

 

If we install a murti of Srila Prabhupada, we have to accept that murti as the living form of the spiritual master - not simply a plastic figurine.

[Guest guest]

 

If we follow the line of thinking given by Sridhar Maharaj, then we also have to accept that the guru is not the animated body of a "living guru" either.

 

Being near the stool passing, mucus coughing, arthritis troubled body of a guru is no big advantage.

 

Sridhar Maharaj said that siksha is most important, so that also discredits this "living guru" concept that is being promoted by "living sadhus" of today.

You'll have to study Sridhar Maharaja in the totality, you are taking things out of context. Narottama das Thakur served Lokanatha Goswami by doing meanial service such as cleaning his stools. By emphasising siksha Sridhar Maharaja is not denying the importance of vapuh and intimate guru-seva. Perhaps what we call Rtvikism is bhakti or devotional service tinged with impersonal jnana.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Even in ISKCON, the murti of Prabhupada is worshipped NOT as the spiritual master, but as his representation, which is actually idol worship.

 

There are dead idols and there are living idols.

 

We should not worship idols, but worship the spiritual master.

 

If we install a murti of Srila Prabhupada, we have to accept that murti as the living form of the spiritual master - not simply a plastic figurine..

 

As far as I can tell, there is no shastric basis for a conclusion that a guru murti IS a living guru. Even guru murti worship in the mood of guru representation is based on a fairly scanty shastric foundation. The existing references usually speak of worshiping guru's shoes, not his murti. Perhaps we are to worship guru's shoes precisely to avoid idol worship mentality.

[Guest guest]

 

As far as I can tell, there is no shastric basis for a conclusion that a guru murti IS a living guru. Even guru murti worship in the mood of guru representation is based on a fairly scanty shastric foundation. The existing references usually speak of worshiping guru's shoes, not his murti. Perhaps we are to worship guru's shoes precisely to avoid idol worship mentality.

 

Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur has established that the genuine guru is "sakshat hari".(directly Lord Hari)

Therefore, if the guru is "sakshat hari" then his murti is non-dfferent from him, or non different from Hari as far as that goes.

Thus, we worship the form of the genuine guru who is the form of the Lord come before us.

 

This is where we get much information and help from predecessor acharyas like Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur.

 

If we worship the form of the spiritual master as "sakshat hari" then we get benefit.

If we worship the form of the spiritual master as a plastic figurine, then we are idol worshippers.

 

Srila Prabhupada said "I am surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers".

 

Can we expect them to understand him and his authority?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur has established that the genuine guru is "sakshat hari".(directly Lord Hari)

Therefore, if the guru is "sakshat hari" then his murti is non-dfferent from him, or non different from Hari as far as that goes.

 

that is a tremendous logical leap... if guru is directly Lord Hari, can he create universes out of pores of his skin? does he have a universal form as well?

 

in some ways what is happening in Iskcon today is similar to what happened to Swami Narayan group many years ago. Thank God we had our early deviants who tried to convince everybody that SP was God and he smashed them in most direct terms... otherwise: Lord help us!

[Guest guest]

 

that is a tremendous logical leap... if guru is directly Lord Hari, can he create universes out of pores of his skin?

 

(If he wanted to he could easily)

 

 

does he have a universal form as well?

 

 

(yes he does, you haven't seen it?)

 

in some ways what is happening in Iskcon today is similar to what happened to Swami Narayan group many years ago. Thank God we had our early deviants who tried to convince everybody that SP was God and he smashed them in most direct terms... otherwise: Lord help us!

 

(the pure devotee is more than God. he has God in his fist and he can give God to whomever he chooses)

 

 

 

 

 

[Beggar 0]

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami has written, "guru krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane, guru-rupe krsna krpa karena bhakta-gane"Translation : 'According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures, the spiritual master is non-different from Krsna. Lord Krsna in the form of the spiritual master delivers His devotees. (Adi-lila 1.45)

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami has also written,

siksa-guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa, antaryami bhakta-srestha, ei dui rupa

Translation : 'One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Lord Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord.(Adi lila 1.47)

It's easy to see how one who cannot properly adjust according to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conception of "acintya bheda-(a)bheda tattva" or simultneous oneness and difference will fall into the trap of either unqualified dualism or unqualified monism. Just more evidence of the need for good association.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami has written, "guru krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane, guru-rupe krsna krpa karena bhakta-gane"Translation : 'According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures, the spiritual master is non-different from Krsna. Lord Krsna in the form of the spiritual master delivers His devotees. (Adi-lila 1.45)

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami has also written,

siksa-guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa, antaryami bhakta-srestha, ei dui rupa

Translation : 'One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Lord Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord.(Adi lila 1.47)

It's easy to see how one who cannot properly adjust according to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conception of "acintya bheda-(a)bheda tattva" or simultneous oneness and difference will fall into the trap of either unqualified dualism or unqualified monism. Just more evidence of the need for good association.

 

Unqualified dualism means seperated but impersonal.

Unqualified monism means absolute oneness.

 

Neither of these concepts has anything to do with a difference of opinions on the worshipping of the murti of an acharya.

 

If Srila Prabhupada was the "shaktyavesha avatar" that Sridhar Maharaja said he was, then worshipping his murti is non-different than worshipping the Lord.

 

Not all gurus are shaktyavesha avatar.

 

Srila Prabhupada WAS!

 

His is very similar to Vishnu-tattva being a shaktyavesha avatar.

 

Shaktyavesha avatar means that Vishnu or Krishna comes down and works though a devotee directly.

 

Srila Prabhupada was special.

He was not just an ordinary guru.