URGENT: GBC must implement varnasrama-dharma

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> VAD is devotional service if it is offered to Krsna with love and devotion.

It

> is ultimately a matter of the heart.

 

 

That is all we are trying to promote in the service of the Lord in ISKCON or

without.

 

 

 

> There were many practitioners of

> traditional VAD during it's glory days who were not devotees.

 

 

We are NOT talking about or promoting in any way this "traditional VAD",

whatever that is. Caste system? Western corporate employee/boss culture?

These are not the goals of daiva varnasrama-dharma. Varnasrama colleges run by

devotees (daiva) would teach us these things.

 

 

 

> VAD is a powerful tool for guiding human energy in the appropriate

direction.

 

 

Please provide quotes from Srila Prabhupada wherein he ever called VAD a

"tool". It is just to impersonal for me. It was created by the Supreme

PERSONALITY of Godhead for His devotees specifically. It is much warmer than a

"tool". It is personal; from the PERSONALITY of Godhead.

 

 

> Pure devotional service is ultimately a personal issue between the jiva and

> the Supreme Lord.

 

Yes, but Vaisnavas always jump on the varnasrama-dharma train simultaneously

with the bhakti-yoga in the heart. Pure devotional service manifests its

symptoms in human beings in this material world through the varnasrama-dharma

institution. Prithu, Prahlada, Bhisma, Yudhistira, Arjuna, Dhruva, Priyavrata,

Uttanapada, Rishabadev, Janaka, Svayambhuva Manu, etc., to name a few

paramahamsas manifesting daiva varnasrama-dharma.

 

 

> > A demon is never applying bhakti with his varnasrama dharma. That is why

he

> is called a demon! Bhakti and varnasrama=daiva varnasrama-dharma. A world of

> difference between Yudhistira's VAD and Ravana's VAD.

 

 

 

> Yes, VAD can be readily engaged in Krsna's service. Or it cannot.

 

 

I disagree. Actually Ravana, Duryodhana and other non-devotees do not follow

VAD. I misspoke regarding Ravana. They may follow some form of varna and

asrama; divisions of labor and social life, but no real dharma is there.

Dharma can only be true if connected to Krsna. Otherwise it is maya. Dharma

means constitutional position of atma/devotee. It has no real meaning

otherwise.

 

Varnasrama-dharma means service to God by devotees in material bodies.

Otherwise it is caste system or other deviation of a social system. When we

speak of varnasrama-dharma we only mean daiva VAD.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> Considering our history, one has to wonder how much we are transcendental to

> anything. Yes, applying VAD and Vedic principles are powerful tools

regarding

> the progressive development of human society.

 

 

I will not take anything away from your appreciation of varnasrama-dharma,

even as a "powerful tool", but personally, I think it is really much deeper

than a "tool". It is constitutional; but when we free ourselves of material

bodies (which is only an illusion of the mind) we transform varnasrama-dharma

into service of the Lord directly but resembling, almost mirror-like,

varnasrama-dharma. Serving Krsna in the Vrindavana forests as flowers, as

hairs on His Surabhi cows, dust particles, etc. They are just different

designations of employees of the Lord.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> Again, you refuse to do anything until the GBC does it for you. Just do it,

go

> and humbly ask the temple president if you can lead an evening discussion on

> Prabhupada's quotes on VAD, something like that. What is the difficulty?

 

 

Gee, I thought that is what I had been doing for the last two years on the VAD

conference and 25 years before that when speaking directly to devotees around

the movement. Doen't that count? Nobody important here?

Why does it have to be in the temple room to be practical?

 

I haven't depended upon the GBC ever to tell me to speak about VAD. In fact

they have discouraged me far more than encouraged me to do so for the last 26

years.

 

>Why

> do we so often appear to need the GBC to stop the universe for us before we

> can contribute even the smallest of things?

 

Sorry, I have never required the GBC to help me preach about

varnasrama-dharma. I have spent thousands of hours doing it ever since first

starting Gita-nagari in 1975. Few GBC ears are open and my preaching started

as just whispers back then (believe it or not). I also managed the LA temple

farm for some time and always encouraged varnasrama-dharma development.

 

I have trained myself in a multitude of varnasrama-dharma specific areas

especially ksatriya dharma. I share that freely with anyone.

 

What is it you have done for varnasrama-dharma, Prabhu?

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > Prabhupada said he did everything else (though we have spoiled much of

> that) and that only the other half need be completed - varnasrama-dharma

> implementation. Do you believe he said this, Prabhu?

> >

>

>

> Please start a VAD community right now so we can all go to sleep knowing one

> of us has fulfilled Prabhupada's mission.

 

 

> Yes, I do believe he said it.

 

 

 

My only intentions are to convince the GBC to believe it also and to implement

policy which supports varnasrama-dharma counseling in EVERY center, for EVERY

devotee, EVERYDAY.

 

Don't do it on my account do it on Srila Prabhupada's.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > I could ask what are YOU doing to establish varnasrama-dharma according to

> Srila Prabhupada's instructions in his morning walks and elsewhere.

> >

>

> Beyond griping on the VAD conference, just like you, apparently not much.

 

 

It is not good for a ksatriya to speak of himself too much. I'll let my record

of service in ISKCON and outside of ISKCON regarding varnasrama-dharma speak

for itself.

 

 

 

 

> > Have you ever tried preaching in support of Srila Prabhupada's order to

> start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of his movement?

 

 

 

> Okay, here I go -- until every president in ISKCON dedicates a room for

> Janesvara to give an evening class on VAD scriptural references -- your all

in

> maya!

 

 

I have NEVER said anyone was in any more maya than myself. Only engaged

improperly and not in accordance to their natural guna and karma and also

lacking in giving training and receiving training according to

varnasrama-dharma. They are all devotees and have my respect for that. But if

someone is going to claim to be a leader and posses or control resources given

to them by the Lord's arrangement they must engage everything according to the

varnasrama-dharma principles and divide the society into four varnas.

 

 

> > But we are NOT taking the prescription given by Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

> Yes, without Janesvara's VAD room in the temple, all our devotional service

is

> in vain. I guess I just give up chanting my rounds until then.

 

Not in vain, but likely to weaken terribly and end in frustration and

unhappiness. Chaos. VAD strengthens. We obviously need it in ISKCON.

 

No. Chant rounds and at the same time perform your prescribed duty; whatever

you are suited for according to your guna and karma. Don't try to deny your

nature Oh Arjuna, for you will be forced to perform it anyway. Do it for Me

and you will come to Me.

 

 

What is your varna anyway, Prabhu? You hide from it so well it is hard to

tell.

 

 

> Okay, pal, this is where I think I've got something on you. I am actively

> supporting a leading ISKCON gurukula that is imbiding it's students with a

> very deep appreciation of Srila Prabhupada as founder/acarya of ISKCON and

as

> a representative of Lord Caitanya. This school actively offers it's students

> an opportunty to deeply appreciation of the glories of Vedic culture.

>

> But alas, I am in maya. This is not a VAD college, it is simply a high

school.

 

 

If you are in maya, that is your problem. Take up varnasrama-dharma and you

will feel strength and encouragement.

 

Your "active support" of a "leading" gurukula is commendable, Prabhu. But you

mention nothing about varnasrama-dharma curriculum at this "gurukula". How can

it claim to be a gurukula without varnasrama-dharma curriculum?

 

Is it going to avoid the same plight as other "leading gurukulas" have

suffered in ISKCON? What social system is in place to manage this "gurukula".

Why would anyone want to neglect to include varnasrama-dharma training at a

gurukula?

 

 

 

> This is where to me your speil begins to sound like GBC envy. You are unable

> to do anything practical because you have somehow been unable to secure the

> facility of a GBC.

 

 

Not at all. I feel I have been fully engaged practically in varnasrama-dharma

preaching and work for the last 25 years without a single bit of help from the

GBC. But so much more could be done with proper resource management for the

good of many more people. It is not GBC envy; it is GBC disdain.

 

 

 

> To me it sounds like the philosophy of "I could have been a

> contender"

 

 

I am quite satisfied with my humble attempts to spread the varnasrama-dharma

movement in my little ways. Many have expressed gratitude. It is my duty and I

enjoy it without any support or needs from the GBC of ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

> > Not just vaisyas grew food.

>

> Really? I hadn't thought or even read about it like that!! Were

> not the brahmanas just engaged in teaching and lived solely on

> whatever charity they received? Do you have any references for

> your point?

 

I dont have any sastric references. But I did live in South India for

several years. My son was born in Udupi, so I spent a lot of time there. I

visited many very nice and ancient temple towns. One particular one near

Mysore called Melkote is an excellent example of a brahmin society (Sri

Vaisnavas), practicaly unchanged since antiquity. South India is full of

brahmin communities.

 

It may be true that in very busy pilgrim towns many of the brahmins are full

time doing pujas, and earning big time from donations. But the volume of

traffic that they see now, is a relatively recent phenomena, due to modern

transport systems (of course very famous places like Varanasi have probably

been busy hubs for centuries). Dont forget that each brahmin has a family

with aunties uncles, sons, daughters etc, not all of them do pujas. Even

Srila Prabhupada has instructed that the brahmins be engaged in teaching all

classes, Ksatrias, Vaisyas and Sudras. So they have to be versed in the ways

of these varnas to teach them!

 

In Udupi the Madhva brahmins have several festivals to do with agriculture.

There is one festival where they bless the Temple rice crops. Rice is very

important for feeding the masses at the many festivals. They also have a

puja for the bananas, as banana leaves are equally important for feeding

people. The Udupi temple oozes antiquity, and its rural roots can be clearly

perceived. It is a small town, and the temple is located to one side, right

next to the fields.

 

In all the communities I visited, the brahmin families either owned land, or

took care of temple lands. It is not that every single brahmin farmed, or

that they grew ALL of their food. But almost every family had someone

cultivating something.

 

Think about it. In the old days the temples were located in the village. The

land was everwhere. The dieties had themselves vast tracts, and these were

farmed to provide grains for the festivals. In my last days in the South, I

visited Ahobhilam, which is way out in the boondocks. The main village of

Ahobhilam, is taken up mostly by the temple, with a few other houses, and

the rest fields.

 

So it is not that the brahmins were all farmers, per se, but it is just that

given that rural life was all around, it was natural for everyone to have

some connection to it, and quite natural to grow a few essentials out in the

yard.

 

In the villages, markets selling general vegetables or fruits were quite

limited, as these were produced by everyone at home. Maybe the cities had

the need for this to some degree, but not outside.

 

YS Samba das

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > Not just vaisyas grew food.

>

> Really? I hadn't thought or even read about it like that!! Were

> not the brahmanas just engaged in teaching and lived solely on

> whatever charity they received? Do you have any references for

> your point?

>

> > YS

>

> ys

>

> ada

 

Sridhara was a poor brahmana who made a living by selling banana-tree

bark to be made into cups. Most probably he had a banana-tree garden and

collected the leaves, skin and pulp of the banana trees to sell daily in

the market. He spent fifty percent of his income to worship the Ganges,

and the balance he used for his subsistence. When Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu started His civil disobedience movement in defiance of the

Kazi, Sridhara danced in jubilation. The Lord used to drink water from

his water jug. Srid

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Adi 10.67

 

Prabhupada: Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood. And on

our roof there were trees, plants, flower plants, and... My grandmother,

she... We, all grandchildren used to water it. So downstairs we took

water in, what is called? A jhari?

Bhagavan: Sprinkling can?

Prabhupada: Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were about half

a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering. But my special

tendency was that along with the plants, I, with the bushes, I'll sit

down. My tendency. And I'll sit down for hours. And like that. In my

childhood. In my maternal uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon

as I find some bush, I make a sitting place.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- August 2, 1976, New Mayapur

(French farm)

 

 

 

The Vedic civilization, the brahmanas, they used to live in the forest,

and the king would offer them some cows. So they will draw some milk.

And in the forest there are fruits, so they will eat fruits and milk.

And if the disciples go to the village, beg some food grain, then

sometimes they cook some food grains. Otherwise the brahmanas used to

live in the forest, drink milk and take fruit. That is sufficient. There

was no need of jumping here and there.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.21 -- Honolulu, May 21, 1976

 

 

 

Balabhadra Bhattacarya used to keep a stock of food grain that would

last from two to four days. Where there were no people, he would cook

the grain and prepare vegetables, spinach, roots and fruits collected

from the forest.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Madhya 17.62-63

[Guest guest]

>

> Have you read any of his stuff?

 

No.

 

>

>

> The gist is to grow heirloom type grains over 60 percent of your area, with

> the rest being, mostly root crops, and 10 percent vegetables, The heirloom

> grains (as opposed to modern agribusiness grains) produce high levels of

> carbon (the straw etc) which is what is required for soil building activity.

 

Yes, even in my life span I can recall the older varieties of wheat being

replaced by the modern varieties. We used to call them dwarf wheats, as they

were so short.

 

>

> First prepare the soil initialy to 24" deep, sort of quadruple digging. The

> goal is to improve soil structure. The minute the soil structure is improved

> however, you dont double dig it any more, you simply loosen the soil in the

> upper 2" and surface cultivate.

>

 

In my raised beds a use a broadfork. it is about 18" wide with 1 foot long

tines. We hoe the surface and dig out perennial roots, then you stand on the

cross bar and sink in the tines, wiggle it back and forth a little, and just

pull it out without turning the soil.

 

>

> Second, you use compost

 

Black gold

 

>

>

> Third due to the deep soil penetration, allowing the roots to grow down

> instead of out, you can plant your crops closer together, so that the leaves

> touch, or barely touch. this increases the yields drasticaly over 'normal'

> patterns, i.e. leaving barren rows.

 

We call that living mulch.

 

>

> YS

>

> By the way. Should we continue to add Vedic psychology to this thread? I

> dont know how we got here to begin with.

 

They asked to be dropped.

[Guest guest]

> costs money too! And for one who is stony broke, skint, strapped, or other

> such money less designations, a little is just too much.

> >

> > Spare change anyone?

 

> Yes, it is difficult. My criticism is more towards expecting the GBC, or

> anyone else for that matter, to dole out all kinds of money so that we can

> pursue our pet projects.

 

Never, Only to Srila Prabhupadas pet project, varnasrama.

 

Not that we shouldn't spend money on these

> things. But there are already farm community's, and there are places where

> affordable land is stillavailable.

 

But managers who are not at all interested in pursuiing varnasrama ideals,

and certainly not willing to trust devotees with land ownership.

>

> I would propose that if we were to spend money on VAD, it should be geared

> towards research and development.

 

Definately THAT is the beginning.

 

Alot of what is being done with cow

> protection, agriculture and secondary education in general could be

> labeled 'VAD' under that paradigm.

 

Where is the 'lot of what is being done'.

 

As we develop secondary gurukula and

> adult education we can even more pursue such things. But without education

> based on practical experience, we are simply going to be spinning our

> wheels -- it is simply so much arm-chair quarterbacking.

 

Exactly, so lets do something about it. No one knew how to distribute books,

but they figured it out, Experience comes from doing. So lets do it! (hey

that sounds familiar?).

 

YS

[Guest guest]

> To whoever asked what is a flame war - The current dialogue between Sthi

> and Janesh is a mild example of a flame war. Maybe it's more like a flame

> skirmish;

> flame wars can get really nasty with lots of personal attacks, and

> involving lots of people. They are found in all parts of the internet,

> not just in COM.

 

They are just getting warmed up. I jump in with a kick every now and then,

but you cant hurry these things.

[Guest guest]

>

> The Vedic civilization, the brahmanas, they used to live in the forest,

> and the king would offer them some cows. So they will draw some milk. And

> in the forest there are fruits, so they will eat fruits and milk. And if

> the disciples go to the village, beg some food grain, then sometimes they

> cook some food grains. Otherwise the brahmanas used to live in the forest,

> drink milk and take fruit. That is sufficient. There was no need of

> jumping here and there.

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.21 -- Honolulu, May 21, 1976

>

>

>

> Balabhadra Bhattacarya used to keep a stock of food grain that would last

> from two to four days. Where there were no people, he would cook the grain

> and prepare vegetables, spinach, roots and fruits collected from the

> forest.

 

 

Do it in Sweden like that. Or in Canada. Go to forest and collect

spinach, vegatables, fruits, ... All year around even..

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Do it in Sweden like that. Or in Canada. Go to forest and collect

> spinach, vegatables, fruits, ... All year around even..

>

> - mnd

 

I remember months at a time in NV when anyy laxmi scrounged up was spent on

building materials and we lived on foraged foods from the meadows and forests

and some chapatis. Rice was a luxury reserved for the Sunday feast.

 

One spring we literally lived on comfrey for about a month. Reading the

broader

context of Srila Prabhupada's books, we can see spinach is used almost

genericaly to mean greens in general. Just like we see sometimes the term

squash is used when the reference is obviously to gourds.

 

Certainly the scriptures are based on a tropical lifestyle and need to be

adjusted according to the circumstnaces of temperate zone life. Foraging in

the

winter is not too viable, as you are implying.

[Guest guest]

>

> > VAD is a powerful tool for organizing and guiding human energy on a

> > large scale.

>

> You never provide scriptural references or quotes from Srila Prabhupada or

even your own guru to support your statements. Could you please do that more

in the future?

>

>

 

Well, the last time I read the Mahabharata, I recall that VAD was used to

engage society on a large scale. There are plenty of references like that. I

just don't see the need to engage a few brahmanacaris in the ashrama as one

would organize a large community.

 

But I would agree, brahmanacaris should expect that most of them will enter

the grhasta ashrama, and that will mean varna responsibilities along the line

of earning an honest living. So we certainly should not train brahmanacaris

that they are useless once they leave the ashrama.

 

 

> Please show some quotes from Srila Prabhupada where he refers to daiva

> varnasrama-dharma as a "powerful tool" or any such reference of VAD being a

"tool".

>

 

 

How about 'utility is the principle'

 

 

>

> Also, what is it that you would say a person "does" when he is performing

"pure devotional service" but not involved with varnasrama-dharma. What are

his activities?

>

 

 

It is difficult imagining that the residents of Vrndavana loved Krsna because

they were vaisyas, etc. I mean they loved Krsna because they just plain loved

Krsna.

 

Whatever we do during the day to keep ourselves busy can certainly be engaged

nicely in a traditional VAD culture, but ultimately our relationship with

Krsna is an affair of the heart.

 

VAD is a powerful, useful 'thing', if that is a more pleasing way to say it.

We should study it very seriously and deeply with a view to apply it

practically as our devotional culture evolves. But devotional service

ultimately is not dependent on anything other than the desire of the

practitioner in the sense that is what Krsna is reciprocating with in the

final analysis.

 

If VAD is devotional service, and devotional service is VAD, than anyone

engaged in devotional service must also be VADing it. Or conversely, if we say

there is no VAD in ISKCON, then there might also be no devotees there either,

because devotees have no business other than devotional service.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

> We are NOT talking about or promoting in any way this "traditional VAD",

whatever that is. Caste system? Western corporate employee/boss culture? These

are not the goals of daiva varnasrama-dharma. Varnasrama colleges run by

devotees (daiva) would teach us these things.

>

>

 

The only examples of a healthy, dynamic VAD culture that I know of are found

in scripture. It is in that sense that I use the term traditional VAD.

 

 

>

>

> Please provide quotes from Srila Prabhupada wherein he ever called VAD a

"tool". It is just to impersonal for me. It was created by the Supreme

> PERSONALITY of Godhead for His devotees specifically. It is much warmer than

a "tool". It is personal; from the PERSONALITY of Godhead.

>

 

 

How about a system for engaging the energy of human society productively --

whatever

 

>

>

> > Yes, VAD can be readily engaged in Krsna's service. Or it cannot.

>

>

> I disagree. Actually Ravana, Duryodhana and other non-devotees do not follow

VAD. I misspoke regarding Ravana. They may follow some form of varna and

asrama; divisions of labor and social life, but no real dharma is there.

>

 

 

Surely their idea of VAD is more along the lines of cultural conditioning. If

one is culturally conditioned, best it be VAD.

 

Still, the yuga dharma is the chanting of Hare Krsna, according to Narada Muni

and Lord Caitanya. Everything else is meant to support the yuga dharma. VAD is

certainly a usefull *fill-in-the-blank* towards that end.

 

>

> Varnasrama-dharma means service to God by devotees in material bodies.

> Otherwise it is caste system or other deviation of a social system. When we

speak of varnasrama-dharma we only mean daiva VAD.

>

 

It appears the term 'daivi-varnasrama' means performing ones varna duties as

direct devotional service to Lord Krsna. But most people in a VAD culture will

not have that understanding. In fact, the majority of devotees on a more

begining level of Krsna consciousness also can be pretty murky about

practically applying that point. Most of us are full of mixed motives. This is

a natural phenomena we might be naive to deny.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

> Gee, I thought that is what I had been doing for the last two years on the

VAD conference and 25 years before that when speaking directly to devotees

around the movement. Doen't that count? Nobody important here?

> Why does it have to be in the temple room to be practical?

>

 

 

Because you said you could not take your parade off the VAD conference until

the GBC establishes a room in every temple for you to offer direct cousel.

 

>

> I have trained myself in a multitude of varnasrama-dharma specific areas

especially ksatriya dharma. I share that freely with anyone.

>

 

Brahmana's preach, ksatriyas do.

 

 

> What is it you have done for varnasrama-dharma, Prabhu?

>

 

 

I've been following your example, simply offering lip service.

 

How's that for a 'flame throw'!

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

> My only intentions are to convince the GBC to believe it also and to

implement policy which supports varnasrama-dharma counseling in EVERY center,

for EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY.

>

> Don't do it on my account do it on Srila Prabhupada's.

>

 

 

Then we have a very specific problem that can be dealt with practically.

Devotees entering the ashrama should be keenly aware that most devotees only

stay in the ashrama for a few years before making their own way in life as a

grhasta, thus they should not throught to the wind any plans to earn an honest

living.

 

Then we should also encourage them in ways that they can engage their grhasta

live, and their carear, in a manner that is both productive individually and

collectively.

 

Gosh, such things are going on beyond the boundries of our esteemed VAD

conference. But I guess Janesh has just been spending way too much time

preaching here to see what is practically going on beyond the internet.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

>

> Not in vain, but likely to weaken terribly and end in frustration and

> unhappiness. Chaos. VAD strengthens. We obviously need it in ISKCON.

>

 

 

Though I just hate sounding cynical, but I can't help but notice some of our

biggest gripers are our beloved fanatical VAD proponents. Somehow, the process

does not seem to be working properly for them.

 

 

>

> What is your varna anyway, Prabhu? You hide from it so well it is hard to

tell.

>

 

Whatever is convenient at the moment for surviving in devotional service.

 

 

> > But alas, I am in maya. This is not a VAD college, it is simply a high

school.

>

>

> If you are in maya, that is your problem. Take up varnasrama-dharma and you

will feel strength and encouragement.

>

 

Just my point, without Janesvara giving counsel at his dedicated room in the

local temple, I sadly remain in maya!

 

 

> Your "active support" of a "leading" gurukula is commendable, Prabhu. But

you mention nothing about varnasrama-dharma curriculum at this "gurukula". How

can it claim to be a gurukula without varnasrama-dharma curriculum?

>

 

 

Exactly -- Everything is maya until it gets Janesh's VAD seal of approval.

None of can ever hope to please Srila Prabhupada until then -- you've got me

convinced!

 

> Is it going to avoid the same plight as other "leading gurukulas" have

> suffered in ISKCON? What social system is in place to manage this

"gurukula". Why would anyone want to neglect to include varnasrama-dharma

training at a gurukula?

>

 

 

They are learning various skills that will be useful in life, but granted, we

haven't yet plastered every activity with official VAD wallpaper.

 

 

>

>

> Not at all. I feel I have been fully engaged practically in

varnasrama-dharma preaching and work for the last 25 years without a single

bit of help from the GBC.

>

 

 

And your happiness and satisfaction not only shows, but is officially VAD

approved by your good self.

 

 

> But so much more could be done with proper resource management for the

> good of many more people. It is not GBC envy; it is GBC disdain.

>

>

 

 

Please show them up by your practical example. While raising a family and

holding a steady job is commendable, much more needs to be done.

 

 

>

> I am quite satisfied with my humble attempts to spread the varnasrama-dharma

movement in my little ways. Many have expressed gratitude. It is my duty and I

enjoy it without any support or needs from the GBC of ISKCON.

>

 

 

Jai ki Jai! All VAD needs to really get off the ground is but one good martry,

and it appears we now have a candidate!

[Guest guest]

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Thu, 29 Jul 99 00:50 -0400

"COM: Yadu-srestha (das) PVS (Melbourne - AU)" <Yadu-srestha.PVS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA) <sthitadi (AT) com (DOT) org>

Re: URGENT: GBC must implement varnasrama-dharma

 

Please delete Vedic psychology from the cc line

YSYS

 

------ End of forwarded message -------

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

 

>

> If the GBC decided to start such a program. I would be the first to

> volunteer, as long as the basic land tenure security arrangements were in

place.

>

>

 

 

I agree that Pancartna has many good ideas, and surely the GBC can be of

assistance in establishing Prabhupada's many ambitions. Yet this should not be

an excuse simply to gripe and not do anything ourselves.

 

Even with full GBC support, success is still not gaurenteed.

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

>

> > Yes, it is difficult. My criticism is more towards expecting the GBC, or

anyone else for that matter, to dole out all kinds of money so that we can

pursue our pet projects.

>

> Never, Only to Srila Prabhupadas pet project, varnasrama.

>

 

 

Lest we forget, Srila Prabhupada left us volumes of 'pet projects'. Not just

that our pet Prabhupada pet project is the only pet project worth badgering

the GBC about. Sometimes it almost appears as if we want the GBC to pay us to

work under the VAD label.

 

 

>

> But managers who are not at all interested in pursuiing varnasrama ideals,

and certainly not willing to trust devotees with land ownership.

>

 

And they may have many serious reasons for doing so, other than that they

simply wish to displease Srila Prabhupada. But fortunately, our Janeshvara,

will lead us forwards as a fearless ksatriya manager!

 

 

>

> Definately THAT is the beginning.

>

 

Yes, and the beginning is usually best dealt with at the beginning.

 

 

>

> Where is the 'lot of what is being done'.

>

 

 

Developing a body of practical knowledge and experience pertaining to the

Vedic arts of life.

 

 

>

> Exactly, so lets do something about it. No one knew how to distribute books,

but they figured it out, Experience comes from doing. So lets do it! (hey that

sounds familiar?).

>

 

 

 

So those who feel they are ready to act in some capacity, act according to

your realization, and please hurry. But simply griping will offer the rest of

us only so much inspiration.

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

>

> If you get fed up with any particular persons texts, just hit the delete

button, its easy! I do it all the time.

>

>

 

 

I find the texts enlivening, to tell you the truth. What I'm griping about it

the lack of balance between an enthusiasm for self-righteous condemnation and

an apparent utter inability to appear to do anything practical.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

> Did not Srila Prabhupada request his disciples to 'rack their brains' to

figure out how to implement Krsna conscious philosophy?

>

 

 

Yes, and VAD is important. But I lack faith in Janesh to the degree that he

seems to expect in his particular view and corresponding methods of

application.

 

Prabhupada was very broad and deep, I don't think any one of us can claim to

understand him cent per cent. We tend to get ourselves into very big trouble

once we begin to convince ourselves along those lines along with an

intolerant attitude towards others.

 

So that is my issue -- and not someone's desire to do something significant

for Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

Interesting and relevant references in connection with the

original point: "Not just vaisyas grew food".

 

Here is a quote Hari Krsna Dasi posted which answers my

question:

 

Prabhupada: Just see how much foolish proposal it is. So for

want of God consciousness, this mischievous

intelligence can be found. The whole economic

question can be solved. If you have got excess,

then you can trade, you can send to some place

where there is scarcity. But every man should

produce his own food. That is Vedic culture. You

get a piece of land and produce your family's

foodstuff.

 

There it is "...every man should produce his own food."

 

 

ys

 

ada

 

> >

> > >

> > > Not just vaisyas grew food.

> >

> > Really? I hadn't thought or even read about it like that!!

> > Were not the brahmanas just engaged in teaching and lived

> > solely on whatever charity they received? Do you have any

> > references for

> > your point?

> >

> > > YS

> >

> > ys

> >

> > ada

>

> Sridhara was a poor brahmana who made a living by selling

> banana-tree bark to be made into cups. Most probably he had a

> banana-tree garden and collected the leaves, skin and pulp of

> the banana trees to sell daily in the market. He spent fifty

> percent of his income to worship the Ganges, and the balance

> he used for his subsistence. When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

> started His civil disobedience movement in defiance of the

> Kazi, Sridhara danced in jubilation. The Lord used to drink

> water from his water jug. Srid

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Adi 10.67

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. No, I like this life, from my very childhood.

> And on our roof there were trees, plants, flower plants,

> and... My grandmother, she... We, all grandchildren used to

> water it. So downstairs we took water in, what is called? A

> jhari?

> Bhagavan: Sprinkling can?

> Prabhupada: Ah, sprinkling can. We all grandchildren, we were

> about half a dozen. So we took very much pleasure in watering.

> But my special tendency was that along with the plants, I,

> with the bushes, I'll sit down. My tendency. And I'll sit down

> for hours. And like that. In my childhood. In my maternal

> uncle's house also, I was doing that. As soon as I find some

> bush, I make a sitting place.

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- August 2, 1976, New

> >>> Mayapur

> (French farm)

>

>

>

> The Vedic civilization, the brahmanas, they used to live in

> the forest, and the king would offer them some cows. So they

> will draw some milk. And in the forest there are fruits, so

> they will eat fruits and milk. And if the disciples go to the

> village, beg some food grain, then sometimes they cook some

> food grains. Otherwise the brahmanas used to live in the

> forest, drink milk and take fruit. That is sufficient. There

> was no need of jumping here and there.

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.21 -- Honolulu, May

> >>> 21, 1976

>

>

>

> Balabhadra Bhattacarya used to keep a stock of food grain that

> would last from two to four days. Where there were no people,

> he would cook the grain and prepare vegetables, spinach, roots

> and fruits collected from the forest.

>

> >>> Ref. VedaBase => Madhya 17.62-63

[Guest guest]

> > Do it in Sweden like that. Or in Canada. Go to forest and collect

> > spinach, vegatables, fruits, ... All year around even..

> >

> > - mnd

>

> I remember months at a time in NV when anyy laxmi scrounged up was spent

> on building materials and we lived on foraged foods from the meadows and

> forests and some chapatis. Rice was a luxury reserved for the Sunday

> feast.

>

> One spring we literally lived on comfrey for about a month.

 

 

One spring like that might be even a fun. There are different "freaks"

out there trying the similar thing, so why not some Hare Krsna fanatics

that spend all the money on the gorgeous buildings meant to impress

the general population, but they let their people starve for few

months. However, even these can't make it more than one spring...

....got to eat like normal humans, after all.

 

I guess you got some realizations, so you don't live like that

realy, to be depending on the forest food. I also may remember

some crazy situations in my life that I wouldn't wish to go through

again. Unless my karma and my foolishness would force me again. Or

unless I would become a detached avadhuta.

 

 

>

> Certainly the scriptures are based on a tropical lifestyle and need to be

> adjusted according to the circumstnaces of temperate zone life. Foraging

> in the winter is not too viable, as you are implying.

 

We see often even animals die in the winter time, here in Sweden,

both from cold and the lack of food. Trying to scratch some

digestable bark from the young trees in your garden..

 

I am implying, it is not viable at al. Not only in winter. Try to

have your family sustained in the forest (go even to tropical

forests, if you think that's the answer). It's Kali-yuga, everything

is low-class and meager. Both the forests/climatic conditions and

people's abilities/austerity. What a terrible combination for a forest

life.

 

 

Well, it's nevertheless nice to hear about the ideal sadhu life style

of the bygone ages.

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > One spring we literally lived on comfrey for about a month.

>

> One spring like that might be even a fun. There are different "freaks"

> out there trying the similar thing, so why not some Hare Krsna fanatics

> that spend all the money on the gorgeous buildings meant to impress

> the general population, but they let their people starve for few

> months. However, even these can't make it more than one spring...

> ...got to eat like normal humans, after all.

 

Actually, it was originally meant to be a house for Srila Prabhupada to come

live in. We were trying to have him come live here. Also, a barn was built,

and other buildings essential to community development. the starving was

option - the State Road ran right thru the property, it was easy to leave.

 

>

>

> I guess you got some realizations, so you don't live like that

> realy, to be depending on the forest food. I also may remember

> some crazy situations in my life that I wouldn't wish to go through

> again. Unless my karma and my foolishness would force me again. Or

> unless I would become a detached avadhuta.

>

 

But it is nice to know we could fall back on it if pressed. yes, the

austerities we performed as brahmacaries or new householders aren't necessarily

meant to be the way we spend the rest of our life. Boot camp is also a great

austerity, but all good soldiers make it through, and then move on.