URGENT: GBC must implement varnasrama-dharma

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > I have asked it several times and have yet to receive an answer: What

social

> system has the GBC been following and promoting for the members of this

> society for the last 25 years? Certainly not varnasrama-dharma.

> >

>

> Gee, I go to temples and I see devotees engaged in service, cooking for the

> deities, chanting, distributing books, and so on. I guess that isn't

pleasing

> to Srila Prabhupada any more.

 

 

You didn't asnswer the question, again. I have never received an answer to the

question. Only sentiment. Lip service.

 

 

So, ISKCON has devised some new social system of which the symptoms are as you

have described above and it is proof positive of successful protection of

cows, women and children? Sorry, there is incredible proof to the opposite. Do

you have ISKCON/GBC blinders on? If it was one of your children who had been

sexually assaulted, would you be so positive about the outward show of

"devotion".

 

Bhavananda was very good at showing the symptoms of "devotion" to Srila

Prabhupada as were others like Ramesvara, Bhagavana, Jayatirtha, Kirtanananda,

etc., but in reality they were abusing human beings daily.

All the book distribution and Deity worship in the world is not going to

please Srila Prabhupada if these people are doing this. His movement has been

given a very bad name throughout the world as the result of this stuff.

 

We can hardly be proud of what we have done to it. We SHOULD be ashamed.

We own an apology to the entire world and especially to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada said he did everything else (though we have spoiled much of that)

and that only the other half need be completed - varnasrama-dharma

implementation. Do you believe he said this, Prabhu?

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> Then there are devotee familys raising their children to appreciate

devotional

> service and working to maintain a devotional enviroment at home, but I guess

> that's maya, too.

 

 

Not maya. They are devotees of the Lord. But they have a right to be governed

according to the Lords divine institution of varnasrama-dharma. And without it

in their own lives things will be very troublesome. Why reject the medicine?

What sense is this? It's stubborn and useless.

 

 

 

> > I do not criticize anyone as a devotee of the Lord. They are all mahatmas.

> >

>

> Then why don't YOU do something besides complain about it.

 

 

You see it as complaining. Others see it as advocacy for a desireable paradigm

shift in management. To each his own. I personally find your apathy and

failure to give or support any practical solution according to scripture for

the social chaos and criminal acts of violence against innocent human beings

despicable.

 

I could ask what are YOU doing to establish varnasrama-dharma according to

Srila Prabhupada's instructions in his morning walks and elsewhere.

I find you only saying we are incapable of implementing varnasrama-dharma. You

want asrama first, varna later; the opposite of Srila Prabhupada's advice.

 

 

Have you ever tried preaching in support of Srila Prabhupada's order to start

varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of his movement?

 

 

 

> Obviously we have

> far to go on these accounts as a society. Acting like chicken little saying

> the sky is falling in just don't cut it with me.

 

 

But we are NOT taking the prescription given by Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

 

> Why don't YOU work to establish a VAD school in you local area. Surely there

> are devotees you associate with that are similarly interested. Why don't YOU

> buy some land and invite devotees to start a community based on VAD

> principles. I mean, it seems as if you waiting for some mythical leader to

> come and do it all for you.

 

 

I have plans and aspirations for all of the above and more. I sincerely want

to do this and have been planning it for years. I have researched grants,

loans, investments, partnerships and land purchase. I have been communicating

with devotees around the globe with similar interests and have formulated

concepts and programs.

 

These things take time, money and resources. But at least I spend the majority

of my time thinking feeling and willing this program to happen. If it does,

great. If it doesn't I at least tried. But people like you and the GBC want

some shmuck like me to try without the resources available to the leaders, so

I will fail miserably and you can all sit back and say I told ya so.

 

You don't really want me to do something because you don't really think it can

happen. True?

 

 

 

>Why don't you allow Krsna to give you the credit

> for doing something that you feel is most pleasing to Srila Prabhuda.

 

 

I need no credit. I only want to do my part to try to fulfill the other half

of Srila Prabhuipada's mission - varnasrama-dharma. You don't even seem to

think it is important, or worse, we can never do it until we become pure

devotees first. Then what is the use of the "tool" that you refer to

varnasrama-dharma as?

 

 

 

> Theres a saying that those who can't do, teach; but in this case it might be

> more appropriate that those who can't do, complain.

 

 

I find it to be education. Informing others of Srila Prabhupada's preaching

regarding varnasrama-dharma. Many find it exciting because it is never

discussed in ISKCON though clearly a priority to Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

> I certainly agree that obsessing on establishing VAD

 

 

 

I like "obsessing" on devotional service. You see the caste system. I try to

see Krsna's perfect catur varnyam system. Discussing every single word spoken

by Srila Prabhupada about it year in and year out is pure nectar to me.

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > Tell me how to get this point across expeditiously to people who have

> somehow or other decided that varnasrama-dharma is NOT the right medicine.

> >

>

> VAD is a potent medicine, but it is not a magic bullet. One still has to

> rectify his relationship with Krsna, VAD or no VAD.

 

 

The process to rectify IS daiva

varnasrama-dharma/sanatana-dharma/Bhagavad-gita. This is the entire

conversation between Arjuna and Krsna - do your varnasrama-dharma duty for Me

and you will certainly come to Me.

[Guest guest]

> > Maybe, maybe not. But we still got to differentiate in between

> > charity and trade. Charity carries the good amount of personal

> > karma along (so you got to be very careful from whom to accept

> > it, and what exactly to do with it). The fair price given for

> > the goods is eliminating that particular aspect.

>

> And paying the blood subsidized market price for milk doesn't eliminate

> it.

 

In the act of charity, the portion of a personal bad karma (or

sinful reactions) of the giver goes along with the gift to the

acceptor. Thus the transfer of personal karma is being done, from

one person to another. The giver gets freed from it, and the acceptor

gets "in charge" of it. So it is very dangerous to accept charity

from materialists, if you are going to use the donation for

yourself only.

 

In the case of trade, this aspect is being eliminated. Though

you may claim the opposite, I see no philosophical base for such

understanding. Sorry.

 

 

However, there are three types of actions described in BG: vikarma,

karma, and akarma. So your trade may fit into any of these, and

consequently the appropriate result may occur. So if buying the

"blood milk" is vikarma, or sinful activity (as you seam to suggest

it), than it is the type of your activity that brings you about the

sinful reactions, not the guy that you bought it from.

 

But, again, let's not mix apples and oranges (charity with

trade/business).

 

 

 

> > "Love&devotion" seams to me to be a quite some jump from "very risky" to

> > "not very risky". As if your self-produced products are instantly filled

> > with love and devotion [to God].

>

> Not instantly. It starts at the point where the decision is taken to

> plant something, making arrangements for the seeds, planting, controling

> weeds and pests, and right through to harvest. At which point you can

> still chant the magic mantra.

 

It's a natural way of living the life, yes. Millions and millions of

rural people around the world live like that. Since you do it yourself,

I may understand that for you such otherwise natural way of living,

becomes a synonym for "love and devotion to God". So I wouldn't argue.

 

"Chanting the *magic manta*"?? It must be something that only hard

working farmers understand well among themselves what to mean exactly.

 

 

 

- mnd

[Guest guest]

> At the risk of sounding over repetitive, from research I have

> done, I find it is quite clear that in traditional societies,

> practicaly every family grew their own food. Even in the

> cities. Using modern natural farming, it has been shown that

> 4000 Sq feet is enough to feed a family for a year, using a

> particular natural farming method (grains in rotation with

> veggies). Most vedic cities were full of open spaces, parks

> gardens etc.

>

> Not just vaisyas grew food.

 

Really? I hadn't thought or even read about it like that!! Were

not the brahmanas just engaged in teaching and lived solely on

whatever charity they received? Do you have any references for

your point?

 

> YS

 

ys

 

ada

[Guest guest]

>

>

> At the risk of sounding over repetitive, from research I have done, I find

> it is quite clear that in traditional societies, practicaly every family

> grew their own food. Even in the cities. Using modern natural farming, it

> has been shown that 4000 Sq feet is enough to feed a family for a year,

> using a particular natural farming method (grains in rotation with veggies).

>

 

Possibly in the tropics

[Guest guest]

> Devotional lives is one thing, material lives is another. THAT is what

> leaders hold responsibility for. People will not be too eager to take up

> devotional practice if their bodies are not protected and given care.

> Varna first, asrama later.

 

> >In that regard, yes, I don't see that

> > there are any magic bullets.

 

> We are talking about two different things. Leaders MUST engage everyone

> according to guna and karma. Bodily responsibility. It cannot be neglected

> out of so-called transcendental detachment. One out of billions can be so

> detached.

 

As spiritualists, it would seem that the appropriate thing to do in ISKCON

is to examine very deeply the causes of the diseased condition we find

ourselves in (widespread dissatisfaction, apostacy, rejection of gurus,

etc.). We seem to constantly forget that this is a movement of personalists.

As such it is the persons, each and every one of them, that make up the

totality of our movement, that need to be carefully maintained, nourished

and nurtured in every way, both materialy and spiritualy. If you have a

hungry belly, that must be satisfied before you can peacefully worship the

Lord.

 

This is a problem that recurs, we get hungry a lot. We need to find

sustainable ways to solve this problem. Sending people out on stickers, or

some other unsteady , market dictated, dependant means to solve the problem,

seems to lack proper deliberation. It is not sustainable. Often it is not

even thought through. The excuse is invariably that we simply dont have the

time to even think about it, because the glorious project we are working on,

requires that everyone work their butt off to pay for it. And if they get

fried and leave, well, "good riddance to bad rubbish" (I have personaly

heard that statement uttered by a leader, albeit many years ago).

 

What about our children? Children are supposed to be observed, and taught

according to their guna and karma. They need to be engaged, according to

their propensities. If you take a kid with a ksatria nature, and expect him

to sit silently in a class all day, learning slokas, you will have both a

frustrated kid and a frustrated teacher. Either the teacher will have a

nervous breakdown, or the kids spirit will be broken, effectively stifling

his ksatria nature.

 

A person whose nature is stifled becomes dysfunctional in later life. A

problem we see with startling reccurence in this day and age.

 

Big plans for glorious expansion, have to take a back seat, to urgent and

intelligent restructuring of the movement (not that they have to stop, but

what is the priority, if the house is burning?), to make sure that all

persons are PROPERLY engaged. And that can only be done with the serious

study, and careful implementation of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada

regarding varnasrama.

 

Is it not obvious? Srila Prabhupada wanted us to do it years ago.

 

People take precendence. Give attention to your people, solve their urgent

material AND spiritual needs, and you will have a sane society. Prabhupada

has given us varnasrama as the perfect means to structure the society. What

in the world is stopping us from doing it?

 

Could it be: Desire for name and fame? You can get that relatively quickly

with big projects. You get the name and the fame, and lose your spiritual

advancement, what a trade off! Big temples are great, but if the motivation

behind building them, is self glorification, well....

 

YS

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> >

> > I would suspect everything grown by Nanda Maharaja was at least as

auspicious as Deity Maha, but not every cutlivating the land was a devotee.

>

> Could you provide a basis for that statement.

>

> > I mean, there

> > were a lot of Ksatriyas killed by Krsna who were considered demons.

>

> Ksatriyas , yes, but vaisyas?

>

 

 

I'm sure all the vaisyas in NV are pure devotees, but I don't know of any

scriptural quotes where all the vaisya's in VAD were also unalloyed devotees.

Condition souls and their subsequent free will are present in all the varnas.

 

 

 

>

> I think we have strayed far from the point. VAD is a socio economic system,

wherein devotees mutually support each other. Foodstuffs produced by

devotees is better for devotees to consume. I am having a little difficulty

understanding your objection to that.

>

 

 

Who has an objection?

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

> When did I ever say anything like this? I never take anything away from

those who are rightly situated and not holding pretentious positions wherein

they take on responsibilities to innocent people needing help and protection

for which they are not qualified to provide for sufficiently.

>

 

Then please start a VAD community where we can all take appropriate shelter

after dumping ISKCON and it's misquided GBC!

 

 

>

> Or do you feel that varnasrama-dharma is a waste of time ultimately because

this materila world is a place of suffering and therefore we, as devotees who

are transcendental to it, should just sit back and let it go away?

>

 

VAD is a wonderful system, but you will still suffer according to your karma

and hearts desire. Only pure devotional service will releive us of all

suffering. VAD is a powerful tool for organizing and guiding human energy on a

large scale.

 

Certainly we can apply VAD principles according to our current situation.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

>

> Now we have come to the fundamental mistake in your reasoning. You do not

accept daiva varnasrama-dharma as devotional service to the Lord.

> If this is truly your conception of daiva varnasrama-dharma there is nothing

that can be said in this conference which will ultimately satisfy you.

>

 

VAD is devotional service if it is offered to Krsna with love and devotion. It

is ultimately a matter of the heart. There were many practitioners of

traditional VAD during it's glory days who were not devotees.

 

VAD is a powerful tool for guiding human energy in the appropriate direction.

Pure devotional service is ultimately a personal issue between the jiva and

the Supreme Lord.

 

 

>

> "In other words, the system of varnasrama-dharma is known also as

> sanatana-dharma, or eternal occupation." S.B. 1.19.4.

>

> Sanatana-dharma is not devotional service?

>

 

Surely, but our specific designations according to our present varna are not.

So this could be another one of those broad topics that have quotes

enlightening it from various angles.

 

 

>

> A demon is never applying bhakti with his varnasrama dharma. That is why he

is called a demon! Bhakti and varnasrama=daiva varnasrama-dharma. A world of

difference between Yudhistira's VAD and Ravana's VAD.

>

 

 

Yes, VAD can be readily engaged in Krsna's service. Or it cannot.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

>

> So, as ISKCON devotees we are transcendental to varnasrama-dharma? Our

history really reflects that!

>

>

 

 

Considering our history, one has to wonder how much we are transcendental to

anything. Yes, applying VAD and Vedic principles are powerful tools regarding

the progressive development of human society.

[Guest guest]

>

> Tell me honestly: do you feel the GBC should start varnasrama colleges in

every center as per Srila Prabhupada's orders 25 years ago? The instructions

have been there for 25 years but have not been followed. What "expertise" is

needed to follow simple instructions?

>

 

 

It might appear unusual starting a college with 'proffesors' who have no

practical experience and a questionable amount of even theoretical knowledge.

These things certainly should be done, and they remain our goal as followers

of Srila Prabhupada. But blasting other's for not doing something when we

ourselves can only complain is also avoiding our responsibility to fulfil

Prabhupada's desire.

 

So we can criticize our leaders, often justly, for so many things. But my

question remains, why don't you, who so deeply appreciates Prabhupada's

instructions on VAD, do something practical about it beyond complaining how

much no one is doing anything practical?

 

To me that could seem like a childish strategy for going about establishing

something as important as VAD.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

>

> At the risk of sounding over repetitive, from research I have done, I find

it is quite clear that in traditional societies, practicaly every family grew

their own food. Even in the cities. Using modern natural farming, it has been

shown that 4000 Sq feet is enough to feed a family for a year, using a

particular natural farming method (grains in rotation with veggies). Most

vedic cities were full of open spaces, parks gardens etc.

>

 

 

Vedic Victory Gardens Ki Jai! So we should all grow some vegetables, and thus

be happy! What could be more simple!

 

With a philosophy like that, who needs Vaisyas?

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

>

> While that is true, it is not always so easy to shift to such places, that

costs money too! And for one who is stony broke, skint, strapped, or other

such money less designations, a little is just too much.

>

> Spare change anyone?

>

 

 

Yes, it is difficult. My criticism is more towards expecting the GBC, or

anyone else for that matter, to dole out all kinds of money so that we can

pursue our pet projects. Not that we shouldn't spend money on these things.

But there are already farm community's, and there are places where affordable

land is stillavailable.

 

I would propose that if we were to spend money on VAD, it should be geared

towards research and development. Alot of what is being done with cow

protection, agriculture and secondary education in general could be labeled

'VAD' under that paradigm. As we develop secondary gurukula and adult

education we can even more pursue such things. But without education based on

practical experience, we are simply going to be spinning our wheels -- it is

simply so much arm-chair quarterbacking.

 

Big projects must be pursued step by step. People who obsess that absolutely

nothing is being done are people who enjoy living life with their eyes closed.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

>

> Your book is obviously not Srila Prabhupada's book. I am not "blasting"

> others. These are simply computer words. Besides, little Janesvara dasa has

very little impact on anyone.

>

 

 

Small wonder.

 

 

>

> When the GBC agrees to start even simple one room varnasrama counseling

> centers in EVERY center for EVERY devotee, EVERYDAY, I will cease all

> criticism. I promise.

>

 

 

Well, if you can't start a community, why not travel and preach and thus

kindly offer such services to others?. But please do something practical

beside blasting those who do not share your view cent per cent as somehow also

not sharing Prabhupada's view cent per cent.

 

 

> I will pledge to read aloud to any aspiring devotees the complete contents

of Srila Prabhupada's VAD morning walk conversations everyday in such a

counseling room.

>

 

 

Again, you refuse to do anything until the GBC does it for you. Just do it, go

and humbly ask the temple president if you can lead an evening discussion on

Prabhupada's quotes on VAD, something like that. What is the difficulty? Why

do we so often appear to need the GBC to stop the universe for us before we

can contribute even the smallest of things?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> You didn't asnswer the question, again. I have never received an answer to

the question. Only sentiment. Lip service.

>

 

I beg to differ. The beauty of VAD is that facilitates devotional service,

which is ultimately a personal affair. I see devotional service going on in

many places all over the world. In other words, the devotees are somehow able

to engage in nice service, even if they are not doing it strictly according to

your vision.

 

Yes, social conditions are best devoped along Vedic principles such as VAD.

But devotional service itself is transcendental, even if we are not.

 

>

> So, ISKCON has devised some new social system of which the symptoms are as

you have described above and it is proof positive of successful protection of

cows, women and children?

>

 

 

You almost seem to take some sort of pleasure on obsessing on the failures of

others. Yes there are failures and many of them. But there have also been a

plethoria of success's. But best not to talk about that, it might spoil the

fun.

 

 

 

> Prabhupada said he did everything else (though we have spoiled much of

that) and that only the other half need be completed - varnasrama-dharma

implementation. Do you believe he said this, Prabhu?

>

 

 

Please start a VAD community right now so we can all go to sleep knowing one

of us has fulfilled Prabhupada's mission.

 

Yes, I do believe he said it.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

>

> Not maya. They are devotees of the Lord. But they have a right to be

governed according to the Lords divine institution of varnasrama-dharma. And

without it in their own lives things will be very troublesome. Why reject the

medicine? What sense is this? It's stubborn and useless.

>

 

 

I agree, all we need are 'ksatriyas' to tell us what to do. Quite

conveniently, you claim to be such a ksatriya.

 

 

 

 

>

> You see it as complaining. Others see it as advocacy for a desireable

paradigm shift in management.

>

 

Please shift your management towards doing something more practical than

complaining with other peoples management. But if you don't do anything

parctical, then maybe you are an aspiring brahmana, and not a ksatriya after

all.

 

 

 

> To each his own. I personally find your apathy and

> failure to give or support any practical solution according to scripture for

the social chaos and criminal acts of violence against innocent human beings

despicable.

>

 

 

Yes, exactly. Because I am not jumping for joy with your vision of how to best

to implement VAD, I am an enemy of the state. Gosh, at least I've made

something of myself!

 

 

> I could ask what are YOU doing to establish varnasrama-dharma according to

Srila Prabhupada's instructions in his morning walks and elsewhere.

>

 

Beyond griping on the VAD conference, just like you, apparently not much.

 

>

> Have you ever tried preaching in support of Srila Prabhupada's order to

start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of his movement?

>

 

 

Okay, here I go -- until every president in ISKCON dedicates a room for

Janesvara to give an evening class on VAD scriptural references -- your all in

maya!

 

Boy, I feel better already!

 

 

>

>

> But we are NOT taking the prescription given by Srila Prabhupada!

>

 

 

Yes, without Janesvara's VAD room in the temple, all our devotional service is

in vain. I guess I just give up chanting my rounds until then.

 

 

>

>

> > Why don't YOU work to establish a VAD school in you local area. Surely

there are devotees you associate with that are similarly interested. Why don't

YOU buy some land and invite devotees to start a community based on VAD

principles. I mean, it seems as if you waiting for some mythical leader to

come and do it all for you.

> >

 

Okay, pal, this is where I think I've got something on you. I am actively

supporting a leading ISKCON gurukula that is imbiding it's students with a

very deep appreciation of Srila Prabhupada as founder/acarya of ISKCON and as

a representative of Lord Caitanya. This school actively offers it's students

an opportunty to deeply appreciation of the glories of Vedic culture.

 

But alas, I am in maya. This is not a VAD college, it is simply a high school.

 

 

 

>

> I have plans and aspirations for all of the above and more. I sincerely want

to do this and have been planning it for years. I have researched grants,

loans, investments, partnerships and land purchase. I have been communicating

with devotees around the globe with similar interests and have formulated

concepts and programs.

>

 

And when the day comes that you are able to practically do something

concerning your various noble dreams, undoubtly all us aspiring followers of

Srila Prabhupada will greatly benefit.

 

 

> These things take time, money and resources. But at least I spend the

majority of my time thinking feeling and willing this program to happen. If it

does, great. If it doesn't I at least tried. But people like you and the GBC

want some shmuck like me to try without the resources available to the

leaders, so I will fail miserably and you can all sit back and say I told ya

so.

>

 

 

This is where to me your speil begins to sound like GBC envy. You are unable

to do anything practical because you have somehow been unable to secure the

facility of a GBC. To me it sounds like the philosophy of "I could have been a

contender"

 

 

> You don't really want me to do something because you don't really think it

can happen. True?

>

 

 

No, I want you to speak softly and carry a big stick. Not just shoot off at

the mouth and claim someday I will be a contender, so respect me now.

 

>

> I need no credit.

 

Good, so now all you need are some practical results to back up your words.

Nothing quites the critics like success.

 

>

>

> I find it to be education. Informing others of Srila Prabhupada's preaching

regarding varnasrama-dharma. Many find it exciting because it is never

discussed in ISKCON though clearly a priority to Srila Prabhupada.

>

 

 

I think your educational mission will be much more potent if it doesn't relly

on denigrating the services of others.

 

 

>

> I like "obsessing" on devotional service. You see the caste system.

>

 

That someone should obsess on only certain forms of service and denigrate all

others does seem like a caste system of sorts.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

 

>

> The process to rectify IS daiva

varnasrama-dharma/sanatana-dharma/Bhagavad-gita. This is the entire

conversation between Arjuna and Krsna - do your varnasrama-dharma duty for Me

and you will certainly come to Me.

>

 

 

And thus until we pressure the GBC to cent per cent implement Janesvara's

vision of Prabhupada's vision, none of us will make spiritual advancement.

 

Yes, without VAD, Arjuna never would have surrendered to Krsna -- that is the

point I must be missing!

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > I think we have strayed far from the point. VAD is a socio economic

system,

> wherein devotees mutually support each other. Foodstuffs produced by

> devotees is better for devotees to consume. I am having a little difficulty

> understanding your objection to that.

> >

>

> Who has an objection?

>

> ys,

>

> Sthita

 

Well, let's hope no one.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Vedic Victory Gardens Ki Jai! So we should all grow some vegetables, and thus

> be happy! What could be more simple!

>

> With a philosophy like that, who needs Vaisyas?

 

Grains and milk. Growing your own veggies is a little different, especially

if

one considers a society where there is no electricity for refrigeration or

frozen

foods. Growing your own was simply practical for having fresh veggies.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> >

> > Who has an objection?

> >

> > ys,

> >

> > Sthita

>

> Well, let's hope no one.

>

>

 

 

Not me! I never believed karmi grown butter beans were better sense

gratification!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

To whoever asked what is a flame war - The current dialogue between Sthi and

Janesh is a mild example of a flame war. Maybe it's more like a flame

skirmish;

flame wars can get really nasty with lots of personal attacks, and involving

lots

of people. They are found in all parts of the internet, not just in COM.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Mark Middle Mountain wrote:

 

 

>

> Grains and milk. Growing your own veggies is a little different,

especially if one considers a society where there is no electricity for

refrigeration or frozen foods. Growing your own was simply practical for

having fresh veggies.

>

 

 

Milk also need refrideration according to modern distribution methods. To the

contrary, most vedic markets had a plethoria of vegetables for sale, as do

their modern counterparts in India and elsewhere. Most vegetables do hold well

enough for marketing in a day or two. Obviously, they didn't truck in iceberg

lettuce from California.

 

I am not against having a garden by any means. But it appears there were

ample food production and distribution channels present in a traditional vedic

society. It seems naive to believe everyone out in the fields was a practicing

Vaisnava when such a standard was lacking for all the other varnas.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Mark Middle Mountain wrote:

 

> To whoever asked what is a flame war - The current dialogue between Sthi

and Janesh is a mild example of a flame war. Maybe it's more like a flame

skirmish; flame wars can get really nasty with lots of personal attacks, and

involving lots of people. They are found in all parts of the internet, not

just in COM.

>

 

 

FYI -- this is only a Cold flame War!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jul 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> VAD is a powerful tool for organizing and guiding human energy on a

> large scale.

 

 

You never provide scriptural references or quotes from Srila Prabhupada or

even your own guru to support your statements. Could you please do that more

in the future?

 

 

Please show some quotes from Srila Prabhupada where he refers to daiva

varnasrama-dharma as a "powerful tool" or any such reference of VAD being a

"tool".

 

 

Personally I think Krsna prescribed to Arjuna something more than just a

"tool". He told Arjuna that he would come to Him if he followed this daiva

varnasrama-dharma/sanatana-dharma.

 

Also, what is it that you would say a person "does" when he is performing

"pure devotional service" but not involved with varnasrama-dharma. What are

his activities? Different than Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya I presume

because they were both SANNYASIS in the varnasrama-dharma institution.

 

They weren't doing "pure devotional service"?