Varna first, then Asrama

[Guest guest]

touchy, touchy -- I was only attempting a joke as well! Unfortunately it was

true and not very funny.

 

 

 

On 10 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote:

 

> On 09 Dec 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

>

> > > "Behind every great man is a woman telling him he's wrong!" (author:

some comedian whose name I no longer remember)

> > >

> > How about 'buzzing around every women trying to make an offering of

'external' significance is a pack of naysayers who claim it can't be done'?

> >

> > Actually, that doesn't apply only to woman, when you think about it.

>

> Geez, is the JOKES conference the only one where attempts at humor are

> allowed? I thought that the word "comedian" above was sufficient to tip off

the reader that the comedian's quoted words were meant as *humor*.

>

> OK, I know what to do:

>

> "Behind every great man is a woman telling him he's wrong!" (author: some

comedian whose name I no longer remember)

>

> DISCLAIMER: The above quote ***should not be misconstrued!!!*** as

misogynist pathology, but rather as a benign attempt at humor.

>

> --gkd&

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

touchy, touchy -- I was only attempting a joke as well! Unfortunately it was

true and not very funny.

 

 

 

On 10 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote:

 

> On 09 Dec 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

>

> > > "Behind every great man is a woman telling him he's wrong!" (author:

some comedian whose name I no longer remember)

> > >

> > How about 'buzzing around every women trying to make an offering of

'external' significance is a pack of naysayers who claim it can't be done'?

> >

> > Actually, that doesn't apply only to woman, when you think about it.

>

> Geez, is the JOKES conference the only one where attempts at humor are

> allowed? I thought that the word "comedian" above was sufficient to tip off

the reader that the comedian's quoted words were meant as *humor*.

>

> OK, I know what to do:

>

> "Behind every great man is a woman telling him he's wrong!" (author: some

comedian whose name I no longer remember)

>

> DISCLAIMER: The above quote ***should not be misconstrued!!!*** as

misogynist pathology, but rather as a benign attempt at humor.

>

> --gkd&

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

> To say some of these women have remained single to

> this day is not proof that the brahmacarini asrama is not "artificial" nor

> is it proof that Prabhupada wanted women in ISKCON to be trained as

> brahmanas.

Don't worry. Brahmacari ashram is also artificial.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> To say some of these women have remained single to

> this day is not proof that the brahmacarini asrama is not "artificial" nor

> is it proof that Prabhupada wanted women in ISKCON to be trained as

> brahmanas.

Don't worry. Brahmacari ashram is also artificial.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> But as I said on another post, even if we try to raise our children to the

> ideal vedic standard, it may not completely work without a vedic social

> system in place. In fact, it may backfire since they are surrounded by

> antithetical views in western society. Often children raised in devout

> religious families completely reject their parents religion because they

> were given more of it than they wanted. Obvioiusly, we are not immune to

> these problems.

>

> So when devotees talk of strictly adhereing to vedic principles while

> living in the midst of a non vedic social system, I don't see how it can

> be entirely possible unless they create a vedic village and do not mix

> with the secular society.Because this was not the case, Prabhupada made

> adjustments. Yet at the same time, he preached the vedic ideal. Now if any

> devotees can show how to make the ideal work, hats off to them. And this

> would be the stongest argument for their cae and cause.

This is true!

If we cannot listen to those who have the experience and grown up children.

Lets just wait 20 years and see where we are all at then, with all the big

talk.

 

What is obvious right now, right here in the reality of our lifes, is that

a illiterate young lady would not do very well, neither on the spiritual nor

on the material side. She would suffer.

Because she is not living in a society where she is protected no matter

what. Any etnic family coming from India, Africa or whereever unto the west,

know this. No matter how traditional they are.

Thats why they also put their kids to school.

Those who become allieniated by society often ends up as criminals in order

to survive. Often they end up as belonging to neither there own tradition

nor the modern society, not good enough for any of them. The sad thing is

that they had no choice.

It is our duty to train our children not only to our ideals, but also to

the world they will have to face, and aknowledge their precare situation

without looking down at them, because they need our support. Srila

Prabhupadas father and mother raised a vaisnava that way.

 

We all have to strugle, why do some assume that others are simply taking

it light? I dont see any reason for anyone to make that strugle even harder

for others by constantly putting them in the nose how unqualified they are

as westerners, women or whatever. If that is an example of protection then I

would rather stay without. But I know it is not. Because it is completely

unrealistic.

 

How do I know?

I tried to train my children to a society which did not exist, myself.

 

Your servant Gunamani d.d.

[Guest guest]

> But as I said on another post, even if we try to raise our children to the

> ideal vedic standard, it may not completely work without a vedic social

> system in place. In fact, it may backfire since they are surrounded by

> antithetical views in western society. Often children raised in devout

> religious families completely reject their parents religion because they

> were given more of it than they wanted. Obvioiusly, we are not immune to

> these problems.

>

> So when devotees talk of strictly adhereing to vedic principles while

> living in the midst of a non vedic social system, I don't see how it can

> be entirely possible unless they create a vedic village and do not mix

> with the secular society.Because this was not the case, Prabhupada made

> adjustments. Yet at the same time, he preached the vedic ideal. Now if any

> devotees can show how to make the ideal work, hats off to them. And this

> would be the stongest argument for their cae and cause.

This is true!

If we cannot listen to those who have the experience and grown up children.

Lets just wait 20 years and see where we are all at then, with all the big

talk.

 

What is obvious right now, right here in the reality of our lifes, is that

a illiterate young lady would not do very well, neither on the spiritual nor

on the material side. She would suffer.

Because she is not living in a society where she is protected no matter

what. Any etnic family coming from India, Africa or whereever unto the west,

know this. No matter how traditional they are.

Thats why they also put their kids to school.

Those who become allieniated by society often ends up as criminals in order

to survive. Often they end up as belonging to neither there own tradition

nor the modern society, not good enough for any of them. The sad thing is

that they had no choice.

It is our duty to train our children not only to our ideals, but also to

the world they will have to face, and aknowledge their precare situation

without looking down at them, because they need our support. Srila

Prabhupadas father and mother raised a vaisnava that way.

 

We all have to strugle, why do some assume that others are simply taking

it light? I dont see any reason for anyone to make that strugle even harder

for others by constantly putting them in the nose how unqualified they are

as westerners, women or whatever. If that is an example of protection then I

would rather stay without. But I know it is not. Because it is completely

unrealistic.

 

How do I know?

I tried to train my children to a society which did not exist, myself.

 

Your servant Gunamani d.d.

[Guest guest]

At 11:59 PM -0500 12/10/99, COM: Mahatma (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN) wrote:

 

>I think the problem is that Iskcon will always have women who want to join.

>So will we allow them to join and be trained as devotees or will we say you

>have to be married because this is your nature and living in the temple is

>artificial? I don't suspect that most preachers would feel right doing this,

>at least not in the West.

 

Therefore we need women's asramas.

 

>Within a vedic social structure things would be different. You mentioend that

>Prabhupada said a brahmacarini asrama was artificial, but still he created it

>because he wanted to give women shelter. Do you suppose today he would not

>want to give them that shelter?

 

Nobody has ever proposed to deny them shelter.

 

>So when devotees talk of strictly adhereing to vedic principles while living

>in the midst of a non vedic social system, I don't see how it can be

>entirely possible unless they create a vedic village and do not mix with the

>secular society.Because this was not the case, Prabhupada made adjustments.

>Yet at the same time, he preached the vedic ideal. Now if any devotees can

>show how to make the ideal work, hats off to them. And this would be the

>stongest argument for their cae and cause.

 

Yes. Prabhupada made adjustments but he always preached the highest; he

never preached that it's ok to divorce and remarry, that it's ok for women

to live with men in the temples etc. etc.

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

At 11:59 PM -0500 12/10/99, COM: Mahatma (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN) wrote:

 

>I think the problem is that Iskcon will always have women who want to join.

>So will we allow them to join and be trained as devotees or will we say you

>have to be married because this is your nature and living in the temple is

>artificial? I don't suspect that most preachers would feel right doing this,

>at least not in the West.

 

Therefore we need women's asramas.

 

>Within a vedic social structure things would be different. You mentioend that

>Prabhupada said a brahmacarini asrama was artificial, but still he created it

>because he wanted to give women shelter. Do you suppose today he would not

>want to give them that shelter?

 

Nobody has ever proposed to deny them shelter.

 

>So when devotees talk of strictly adhereing to vedic principles while living

>in the midst of a non vedic social system, I don't see how it can be

>entirely possible unless they create a vedic village and do not mix with the

>secular society.Because this was not the case, Prabhupada made adjustments.

>Yet at the same time, he preached the vedic ideal. Now if any devotees can

>show how to make the ideal work, hats off to them. And this would be the

>stongest argument for their cae and cause.

 

Yes. Prabhupada made adjustments but he always preached the highest; he

never preached that it's ok to divorce and remarry, that it's ok for women

to live with men in the temples etc. etc.

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

On 10 Dec 1999, Trivikrama Swami wrote:

 

> > >

> > > And in SP's own words, both in his first letters asking to start it, and

in 1977, SP said that the brahmacarini ashram was artificial. So, where does

Mahatma get his discoveries from? And, what sort of brahmacarini ashram is

> >

> > Dear Trivikrama Maharaja

> >

> > Please accept my respectfull obeisances

> > The comment you where sending from Ameyatma prabhu apeared without any

comment by you, does that mean that you support everything he said hearin

fully?

> >

> > Your servant

> > Harsi das

>

> Not necessarily. Just facilitating the debate.

> Ys TS

 

 

 

Hey, I can relate to that!

 

ys,

 

Sthita-dhi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 10 Dec 1999, Trivikrama Swami wrote:

 

> > >

> > > And in SP's own words, both in his first letters asking to start it, and

in 1977, SP said that the brahmacarini ashram was artificial. So, where does

Mahatma get his discoveries from? And, what sort of brahmacarini ashram is

> >

> > Dear Trivikrama Maharaja

> >

> > Please accept my respectfull obeisances

> > The comment you where sending from Ameyatma prabhu apeared without any

comment by you, does that mean that you support everything he said hearin

fully?

> >

> > Your servant

> > Harsi das

>

> Not necessarily. Just facilitating the debate.

> Ys TS

 

 

 

Hey, I can relate to that!

 

ys,

 

Sthita-dhi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 10 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote:

 

>

> > One problem we've found with brahmancarini ashramas for our daughters is

that they seem to attract certain balding middle aged men with the fantasy of

scoring a teenage wife.

>

> Interesting observation, prabhu. Perhaps you will provide more details for

the assembled readers.

>

 

 

 

Out of respect for the author of the original comment that was posted, I

won't.

 

 

 

> >I wonder if it is better that certain woman stay at

> > home, or that certain men stay at home.

>

> No need to wonder. It is certainly better for women stay at home, and it

certainly also better if certain men can earn their livelihoods by staying at

home.

>

> --gkd

>

 

 

I believe that occupation is sometimes called 'housewife'.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 10 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote:

 

>

> > One problem we've found with brahmancarini ashramas for our daughters is

that they seem to attract certain balding middle aged men with the fantasy of

scoring a teenage wife.

>

> Interesting observation, prabhu. Perhaps you will provide more details for

the assembled readers.

>

 

 

 

Out of respect for the author of the original comment that was posted, I

won't.

 

 

 

> >I wonder if it is better that certain woman stay at

> > home, or that certain men stay at home.

>

> No need to wonder. It is certainly better for women stay at home, and it

certainly also better if certain men can earn their livelihoods by staying at

home.

>

> --gkd

>

 

 

I believe that occupation is sometimes called 'housewife'.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

> >

> >Madeline Albright, oops but she is just foreign minister or so..

> >"Behind every great man is a great woman" autor unknown

>

> Marie Curie (co-discovered radium), Amelia Erhardt (aviator), Clara

> Barton (founded the American Red Cross) - or maybe they were really

> men...

>

 

 

Margaret Thatcher is often held as one of the most significant world leaders

responsible for the decline and fall of the former Soviet Union.

 

Anyway, if someone has a talent that can be utilized for the benefit of

others, that could very be something useful in Krsna's service as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

> >

> >Madeline Albright, oops but she is just foreign minister or so..

> >"Behind every great man is a great woman" autor unknown

>

> Marie Curie (co-discovered radium), Amelia Erhardt (aviator), Clara

> Barton (founded the American Red Cross) - or maybe they were really

> men...

>

 

 

Margaret Thatcher is often held as one of the most significant world leaders

responsible for the decline and fall of the former Soviet Union.

 

Anyway, if someone has a talent that can be utilized for the benefit of

others, that could very be something useful in Krsna's service as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 10 Dec 1999, Harsi das wrote:

 

>

> Queen Victoria was the longest queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. She

was a moral woman who practiced virtue. Her death was the final event which

ended her reign.......

>

> COMPILATION OF ACTUAL STUDENT GCSE ANSWERS IN THE UK

 

 

 

Kinda makes our Gurukula system of education seem almost together!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 10 Dec 1999, Harsi das wrote:

 

>

> Queen Victoria was the longest queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. She

was a moral woman who practiced virtue. Her death was the final event which

ended her reign.......

>

> COMPILATION OF ACTUAL STUDENT GCSE ANSWERS IN THE UK

 

 

 

Kinda makes our Gurukula system of education seem almost together!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>It is certainly better for women stay at home, and it

>certainly also better if certain men can earn their livelihoods by staying at

>home.

 

Until this happens, varnasrama (and homeschooling for daughters) will not

start to happen. But first the men must provide finacially for their

families (at home or outside the home) to facilitate this.

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

>It is certainly better for women stay at home, and it

>certainly also better if certain men can earn their livelihoods by staying at

>home.

 

Until this happens, varnasrama (and homeschooling for daughters) will not

start to happen. But first the men must provide finacially for their

families (at home or outside the home) to facilitate this.

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

>

> Yes. Prabhupada made adjustments but he always preached the highest; he

> never preached that it's ok to divorce and remarry, that it's ok for women

> to live with men in the temples etc. etc.

>

I never heard that one before. I mean that he never preached that is Ok

for women to live together with men in the temples. Why did he then put them

together in the same temple?

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

>

> Yes. Prabhupada made adjustments but he always preached the highest; he

> never preached that it's ok to divorce and remarry, that it's ok for women

> to live with men in the temples etc. etc.

>

I never heard that one before. I mean that he never preached that is Ok

for women to live together with men in the temples. Why did he then put them

together in the same temple?

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/99 2:11:36 PM Central Standard Time,

Sraddha.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<< Yes. Prabhupada made adjustments but he always preached the highest; he

> never preached that it's ok to divorce and remarry, that it's ok for women

> to live with men in the temples etc. etc.

> >>

 

There were cases in which women wanted to remarry and Prabhupada gave his ok

if this was the only way they could stay in KC. We should always remember

that despite whatever Prabhupada preached, he would bend the rules if that

would help someone become more KC.

 

Ys, Md

 

Ys, Mahatma dasa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/99 2:11:36 PM Central Standard Time,

Sraddha.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<< Yes. Prabhupada made adjustments but he always preached the highest; he

> never preached that it's ok to divorce and remarry, that it's ok for women

> to live with men in the temples etc. etc.

> >>

 

There were cases in which women wanted to remarry and Prabhupada gave his ok

if this was the only way they could stay in KC. We should always remember

that despite whatever Prabhupada preached, he would bend the rules if that

would help someone become more KC.

 

Ys, Md

 

Ys, Mahatma dasa

[Guest guest]

> Yes, it was his biology professor from the Scottish college and that

> reflected the state of science at the time. Srila Prabhu once

> supplied us with more current numbers pointing out that 64 oz is

> actually *gigantic* and not found in any humans. Apparently, the

> male brain size is closer to 46 oz and that of the female about 42

> oz, but as earlier pointed out here, a larger brain does not

> necessarily equal greater intelligence.

 

 

I think it can be said that if the men used their brains, they would

be more intelligent. :-)

 

But this can also be seen from a different viewpoint. From the point

of view how men and women use their brains. The specialization that

men often do, requies more brains to get it right.

 

ys Prisni dasi

[Guest guest]

> Yes, it was his biology professor from the Scottish college and that

> reflected the state of science at the time. Srila Prabhu once

> supplied us with more current numbers pointing out that 64 oz is

> actually *gigantic* and not found in any humans. Apparently, the

> male brain size is closer to 46 oz and that of the female about 42

> oz, but as earlier pointed out here, a larger brain does not

> necessarily equal greater intelligence.

 

 

I think it can be said that if the men used their brains, they would

be more intelligent. :-)

 

But this can also be seen from a different viewpoint. From the point

of view how men and women use their brains. The specialization that

men often do, requies more brains to get it right.

 

ys Prisni dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > There was Indira Gandhi in Prabhupada's time. And what did he call her? A

> whore.

> >

> > ys. JMd

>

> Yeah, that's all she was. I bet when he met her in private he explained to

her

> why she was nothing but a useless.....

>

> You know, Prabhupada could attract even boorish misoginists, he was so great!

>

> ys,

>

> Sthita

 

Does anyone else note the irony that ISKCON got started because a woman gave

Srila

Prabhupada a free ride to America?