Varna first, then Asrama

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna,

Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. I

found the submission below to be of utmost depth and concern.....written by

Mata Hare Krsna Dasi. It speaks of "seeing the problems for what they

are". Not everyone wants to do that these days. All I can say is, why

do some of the gurus have 3000 plus disciples? Does it make them a better

guru to have large numbers of disciples? It is against the instructions

given in the Nectar of Instruction, in regard to who should have disciples

and how this process should be taken up. Are western devotees so far

beyond the instructions of Srila Prabhupada, that they don't need to heed

his advice? Let us all pray that somehow this Krsna Consciousness mission

can push forward. It is my opinion that we require some "super"

surrendered devotees to give their life to simply caring to guide others,

even if those others are merely a handful, 10, 20 30, or so.....and as there

are many of these in the position of temple presidents, (or other leadership

positions) my obeisances to them if they are giving the service their full

heart. It is a completely overwhelming job, accomplished only by those

whose heart is totally dedicated to serving their guru and seeing the

devotional happiness of others. My respects to those who are carrying on

this preaching mission thousands and thousands of times.

In service to Srila

Prabhupada,

Mata Mahalaksmi Dasi

-

COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA) <Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

COM: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) <DMW (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: IWC (Internat. Women's

Conference) <IWC (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: (International) Women's Ministry

<Women's.Ministry (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)

<Basu.Ghosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Cc: Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) Bowdoin (DOT) EDU>

Monday, December 06, 1999 3:18 PM

Varna first, then Asrama

 

 

> [Text 2836549 from COM]

>

>

>

> "COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S)" wrote:

>

> > [Text 2836442 from COM]

> >

> > < If there are no unmarried devotee men in the congregation then the

ladies

> > who obviously want devotee

> > > husbands see the temple brahmacaries as their only hope. If the

marriages

> > > are fixed within the congregation itself then the brahmacaries are

free to

> > > concentrate on selling Prabhupada's books.

> > >

> > Selling books for how long? And then when they are not able to sell

books

> > anymore, what happens then? When they want to get married and all the

women

> > are married to the congregational members, and the temple managment

tells

> > them that they can't maintain them any longer, specificaly if they want

to

> > get married, what happens then? What happens when after 10 or 15 years

of

> > book distribution they can't do it anymore, they have no any income, all

the

> > money they collected went for maintaining the buildings (in which they

can't

> > live anymore, because now they have to pay if they want to use them) and

> > some of the money went for the sannyasis who made their own houses and

many

> > of them meanwhile got married. The temple managers also got married,

(they

> > are not fools, they understood what is going on), despite of preaching

to

> > poor brahmacaris that perfection of life is pure renounciation and book

> > distribution. And when TP's get married they don't get married to a

> > congregational member, they choose the best one they can get.

> > PRABHU YOU ARE GREEN! Lets see what you are going to tell us in 10

years.

> >

> > Ys. Sraddha dd

>

> We have a mantra on the varnasrama.development conference: "Varna first,

then

> asrama." We heard it from Srila Prabhupada in the Varnasrama Walks in

March

> 14,

> 1974:

>

> ***************************

> Hrdayananda: So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions,

varna

> and asr... Learning a materia...

> Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is

perfectly

> in

> order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement,

and

> varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or

they're on

> the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And

when

> the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That

is

> later on.

> Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

> Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

> varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

> position

> now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so

many

> unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be

no

> question of unemployment.

>

> ***********************

>

> As we continue to neglect the extremely practical and psychologically

realistic

> instruction of our founder/acayra, we will forever experience pain,

> disappointment and confusion as our new recruits don't all turn out to be

> brahmanas -- even though we insist on training them that way.

>

> Rather than force every young man to be a brahmana, a devotee's spiritual

> master

> should give him guidance as to which varna he will be most satisfied doing

his

> devotional service in. Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual

master

> should designate the varna of of a disciple:

>

> *****************************

> Prabhupada: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform,

there

> must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is

not

> possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required.

The

> society must be divided into four classes. That is brahmana, ksatriya,

vaisya,

> sudra.

> Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

> Prabhupada: Yes. That is by tendency. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. By the

tendency.

> Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction

that

> "This boy is meant for becoming a brahmana." Everyone has got some

tendency.

> >From the tendency it should be designated.

>

> ============ REF. Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973,

Bombay

>

> *****************************

>

> Now -- just imagine -- how would this scenario play out, say if, just as

an

> experiment, we tried to follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions on this

matter

> for even one year.

>

> A young man would come into the temple, attracted to Krsna consciousness.

As

> he

> becomes inspired by the preaching of some more advanced devotee, he would

ask

> him to be his spiritual master. Then, as their discussions progressed,

the

> devotee would ask, "What do you think would be the best varna for me to

try to

> serve Krsna?" The spiritual master would ask different questions to

discover

> the background, propensities and areas of expertise of the devotee. He

would

> say, "I think you would be the happiest if you developed the skills in

> such-and-such varna. Why don't you begin to get training in that area for

> awhile, and we'll see how this works out for you."

>

> Then the devotee would begin to be trained in a varna which is suitable

for his

> psycho-physical type. Maybe the first attempt would not be quite right.

After

> more consultation with his spiritual master, he would go into another area

of

> training. Then he would find an occupation at which he would be satisfied

> serving Krsna. By learning to serve Krsna by his particular occupation --

> under

> the guidance of a bona-fide spiritual master -- he would move towards

spiritual

> perfection, exactly as described by Krsna:

>

> ******************

> By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now

please

> hear from Me how this can be done. By worship of the Lord, who is the

source

> of

> all beings and who is all-pervading, a man can attain perfection through

> performing his own work.

>

> Bg 18.45-46

> ******************

>

> So now he is being trained in his occupational duty -- which will provide

the

> platform for his life-long work in devotional service. Then what?

>

> Then, through further consultation with his spiritual master, he gets

guidance

> about which asrama he will be most satisfied in. His spiritual master may

feel

> that he will be most satisfied in the brahmacari asrama. So that's his

asrama.

> Or he may feel that his disciple will be most satisfied in the grhasta

asrama.

> So that's he finds a wife, and that's his asrama.

>

> Now this is quite different from being trained up for 7 years as a book

> distributor brahmacari and then "falling down" into marriage. First of

all,

> every thing he has done is with the encouragement of his spiritual

master -- so

> there is no feeling of defeat for not remaining a brahmacari.

>

> Second of all, he already has good training in a viable occupational

skill. He

> actually has the means to support his wife, before he even gets married.

This

> is a way of implementing the complete, natural system advocated by Srila

> Prabhupada.

>

> Compare that with the typical sequence of events presently when the

> book-distributor brahmacari "falls down" into the grhasta asrama -- with

no

> skills and no means of support. Why on earth are we so surprised that

after

> the

> great pressure to find a job (with no skills) and support his wife, that

so

> many

> couples find themselves unable to endure the stress and unable to maintain

> their

> marriage vows?

>

> Srila Prabhupada's suggestion would work far, far better than our current

> system.

>

> ****NOTE: Whenever I suggest that we follow Srila Prabhupada's system and

have

> the spiritual master provide varna guidance to his disciples, I am told

"That

> is

> impossible. How can a guru with 3000 disciples know them well enough to

give

> them guidance in their occupational duty as suggested by Prabhupada?" My

> response is, after we've gone through so much suffering by not following

Srila

> Prabhupada's suggestion, maybe we should think of what changes we need to

make

> so we *can* follow his suggestion.***

>

> Just one last look at Srila Prabhupada's statement from above -- please

note:

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

> varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

> position

> now.

>

> Is Prabhupada right? Are we in a chaotic condition now?

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna,

Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. I

found the submission below to be of utmost depth and concern.....written by

Mata Hare Krsna Dasi. It speaks of "seeing the problems for what they

are". Not everyone wants to do that these days. All I can say is, why

do some of the gurus have 3000 plus disciples? Does it make them a better

guru to have large numbers of disciples? It is against the instructions

given in the Nectar of Instruction, in regard to who should have disciples

and how this process should be taken up. Are western devotees so far

beyond the instructions of Srila Prabhupada, that they don't need to heed

his advice? Let us all pray that somehow this Krsna Consciousness mission

can push forward. It is my opinion that we require some "super"

surrendered devotees to give their life to simply caring to guide others,

even if those others are merely a handful, 10, 20 30, or so.....and as there

are many of these in the position of temple presidents, (or other leadership

positions) my obeisances to them if they are giving the service their full

heart. It is a completely overwhelming job, accomplished only by those

whose heart is totally dedicated to serving their guru and seeing the

devotional happiness of others. My respects to those who are carrying on

this preaching mission thousands and thousands of times.

In service to Srila

Prabhupada,

Mata Mahalaksmi Dasi

-

COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA) <Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

COM: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) <DMW (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: IWC (Internat. Women's

Conference) <IWC (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: (International) Women's Ministry

<Women's.Ministry (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)

<Basu.Ghosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Cc: Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) Bowdoin (DOT) EDU>

Monday, December 06, 1999 3:18 PM

Varna first, then Asrama

 

 

> [Text 2836549 from COM]

>

>

>

> "COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S)" wrote:

>

> > [Text 2836442 from COM]

> >

> > < If there are no unmarried devotee men in the congregation then the

ladies

> > who obviously want devotee

> > > husbands see the temple brahmacaries as their only hope. If the

marriages

> > > are fixed within the congregation itself then the brahmacaries are

free to

> > > concentrate on selling Prabhupada's books.

> > >

> > Selling books for how long? And then when they are not able to sell

books

> > anymore, what happens then? When they want to get married and all the

women

> > are married to the congregational members, and the temple managment

tells

> > them that they can't maintain them any longer, specificaly if they want

to

> > get married, what happens then? What happens when after 10 or 15 years

of

> > book distribution they can't do it anymore, they have no any income, all

the

> > money they collected went for maintaining the buildings (in which they

can't

> > live anymore, because now they have to pay if they want to use them) and

> > some of the money went for the sannyasis who made their own houses and

many

> > of them meanwhile got married. The temple managers also got married,

(they

> > are not fools, they understood what is going on), despite of preaching

to

> > poor brahmacaris that perfection of life is pure renounciation and book

> > distribution. And when TP's get married they don't get married to a

> > congregational member, they choose the best one they can get.

> > PRABHU YOU ARE GREEN! Lets see what you are going to tell us in 10

years.

> >

> > Ys. Sraddha dd

>

> We have a mantra on the varnasrama.development conference: "Varna first,

then

> asrama." We heard it from Srila Prabhupada in the Varnasrama Walks in

March

> 14,

> 1974:

>

> ***************************

> Hrdayananda: So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions,

varna

> and asr... Learning a materia...

> Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is

perfectly

> in

> order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement,

and

> varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or

they're on

> the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And

when

> the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That

is

> later on.

> Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

> Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

> varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

> position

> now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so

many

> unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be

no

> question of unemployment.

>

> ***********************

>

> As we continue to neglect the extremely practical and psychologically

realistic

> instruction of our founder/acayra, we will forever experience pain,

> disappointment and confusion as our new recruits don't all turn out to be

> brahmanas -- even though we insist on training them that way.

>

> Rather than force every young man to be a brahmana, a devotee's spiritual

> master

> should give him guidance as to which varna he will be most satisfied doing

his

> devotional service in. Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual

master

> should designate the varna of of a disciple:

>

> *****************************

> Prabhupada: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform,

there

> must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is

not

> possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required.

The

> society must be divided into four classes. That is brahmana, ksatriya,

vaisya,

> sudra.

> Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

> Prabhupada: Yes. That is by tendency. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. By the

tendency.

> Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction

that

> "This boy is meant for becoming a brahmana." Everyone has got some

tendency.

> >From the tendency it should be designated.

>

> ============ REF. Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973,

Bombay

>

> *****************************

>

> Now -- just imagine -- how would this scenario play out, say if, just as

an

> experiment, we tried to follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions on this

matter

> for even one year.

>

> A young man would come into the temple, attracted to Krsna consciousness.

As

> he

> becomes inspired by the preaching of some more advanced devotee, he would

ask

> him to be his spiritual master. Then, as their discussions progressed,

the

> devotee would ask, "What do you think would be the best varna for me to

try to

> serve Krsna?" The spiritual master would ask different questions to

discover

> the background, propensities and areas of expertise of the devotee. He

would

> say, "I think you would be the happiest if you developed the skills in

> such-and-such varna. Why don't you begin to get training in that area for

> awhile, and we'll see how this works out for you."

>

> Then the devotee would begin to be trained in a varna which is suitable

for his

> psycho-physical type. Maybe the first attempt would not be quite right.

After

> more consultation with his spiritual master, he would go into another area

of

> training. Then he would find an occupation at which he would be satisfied

> serving Krsna. By learning to serve Krsna by his particular occupation --

> under

> the guidance of a bona-fide spiritual master -- he would move towards

spiritual

> perfection, exactly as described by Krsna:

>

> ******************

> By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now

please

> hear from Me how this can be done. By worship of the Lord, who is the

source

> of

> all beings and who is all-pervading, a man can attain perfection through

> performing his own work.

>

> Bg 18.45-46

> ******************

>

> So now he is being trained in his occupational duty -- which will provide

the

> platform for his life-long work in devotional service. Then what?

>

> Then, through further consultation with his spiritual master, he gets

guidance

> about which asrama he will be most satisfied in. His spiritual master may

feel

> that he will be most satisfied in the brahmacari asrama. So that's his

asrama.

> Or he may feel that his disciple will be most satisfied in the grhasta

asrama.

> So that's he finds a wife, and that's his asrama.

>

> Now this is quite different from being trained up for 7 years as a book

> distributor brahmacari and then "falling down" into marriage. First of

all,

> every thing he has done is with the encouragement of his spiritual

master -- so

> there is no feeling of defeat for not remaining a brahmacari.

>

> Second of all, he already has good training in a viable occupational

skill. He

> actually has the means to support his wife, before he even gets married.

This

> is a way of implementing the complete, natural system advocated by Srila

> Prabhupada.

>

> Compare that with the typical sequence of events presently when the

> book-distributor brahmacari "falls down" into the grhasta asrama -- with

no

> skills and no means of support. Why on earth are we so surprised that

after

> the

> great pressure to find a job (with no skills) and support his wife, that

so

> many

> couples find themselves unable to endure the stress and unable to maintain

> their

> marriage vows?

>

> Srila Prabhupada's suggestion would work far, far better than our current

> system.

>

> ****NOTE: Whenever I suggest that we follow Srila Prabhupada's system and

have

> the spiritual master provide varna guidance to his disciples, I am told

"That

> is

> impossible. How can a guru with 3000 disciples know them well enough to

give

> them guidance in their occupational duty as suggested by Prabhupada?" My

> response is, after we've gone through so much suffering by not following

Srila

> Prabhupada's suggestion, maybe we should think of what changes we need to

make

> so we *can* follow his suggestion.***

>

> Just one last look at Srila Prabhupada's statement from above -- please

note:

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

> varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

> position

> now.

>

> Is Prabhupada right? Are we in a chaotic condition now?

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Sridhari (dd) JPS (Mendoza - ARG) wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Hare Krsna Mataji:

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

>

> I humbly need to thank you for you letter, it is the first time that I

> really read a practical solution to ALL ISKCON problems. Now it is time to

> quickly start make those changes, in order to heal our society, but my

 

Thank you for your kind response. But we have not yet heard from those

who are opposed to this aspect of Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I'm

sure they will have something to say.

 

> question is if you had been told that it wouldn't work, then is there some

> hope? For one side we hear that Gurus say that they cann't reject a

> candidate if he ask for shelter but at the same time, because they have so

> many discipules is very hard for them to manage care for the discipules...

 

 

We need to implement guru-selection training for our bhaktas. Otherwise

our current gurus will continue to be too overloaded to invest much time

and energy in providing meaningful varna counseling to their disciples.

Obviously, this will be a disaster if a guru just waves his hand and

pronounces, "You are a sudra; you are a vaisya; you are a brahmana" and so

on. Practically speaking, that type of designation of varna cannot work.

It will require more time and sensitivity.

 

One way around the over-burdened guru obstacle to developing varnasrama

that has been suggested is to encourage diksa gurus to encourage their

disciples to also take siksa gurus who would then do the actual varna

counseling and guidance. So this might be one possibility. It seems

unnecessarily round-about to me, but it might provide a valuable start in

the right direction.

 

I think the real solution lies in recognizing that there are already many

humble, but highly qualified disciples of Srila Prabhupada in our movement

who could be initiating their own disciples. To me they constitute a

vast, under-utilized resource in our movement. Let's train our bhaktas in

how to recognize these devotees and approach them for initiation.

 

I'm sure this will be a highly controversial point, but I think that

recent events have shown that our current "no-objection" method of

sanctioning a guru's ability to initiate has not been very successful in

protecting devotees against bogus gurus -- when approximately 50% of those

we had "no objection" to have fallen down. The latest such example, if I

understand correctly, is Dhanudhara Swami who has just been told that the

resume initiation in a couple more years, in spite of having a record of

violence and intimidation against ISKCON's children. Surely a solidly

developed program of guru-selection training could help bhaktas select

more qualified spiritual guidance than this.

 

Why should wonderful devotees like Nagaraja dasa, Pranada dasi, Kaulini

dasi, Yamaraja dasa, Jyotirmayi dasi, Visaka dasi, Krishna Dharma dasa and

Pancaratna dasa be ignored while others become overburdened with

disciples? It's almost offensive to mention only their names without

mentioning dozens more qualified Prabhupada disciples who currently have

no disciples of their own. And yet, because we do not conscientiously

train our bhaktas to recognize devotees like this as their personal

spiritual guides, these spiritual treasures of ISKCON's go under-utilized.

 

 

And it does no good to claim "no objection" does not mean that we claim

someone is qualified to initiate disciples, it just means that we have "no

objection." The practical fact is that the "no objection" list is the

defacto list of approved gurus in ISKCON. Probably more than 99% of all

ISKCON bhaktas will select as their guru someone who appears on the "no

objection" list. The reality is that to them "no objection" means "bona

fide spiritual master." That's how it plays out in real life.

 

> > ****NOTE: Whenever I suggest that we follow Srila Prabhupada's system

> and have

> > the spiritual master provide varna guidance to his disciples, I am told

> "That

> > is

> > impossible. How can a guru with 3000 disciples know them well enough to

> give

> > them guidance in their occupational duty as suggested by Prabhupada?" My

> > response is, after we've gone through so much suffering by not following

> Srila

> > Prabhupada's suggestion, maybe we should think of what changes we need to

> make

> > so we *can* follow his suggestion.***

>

> Do our actual leader still think that it is imposible? If they think so,

> where are they guiding us, neglecting Srila Prabhupada's instructions? I

> don't mean to be offensive with the question, I'm just trying to

> understand... how can we trust those who aren't loyaly following Srila

> Prabhupada's teachings.

>

> Again, Thank you very much,

>

> your servant, Sridhari dd

 

I guess I want to point out that we must still recognize that there are

actually a number of initiating spiritual masters and GBC who are serious

about establishing self-sufficient villages and starting varnasrama.

Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja has done a lot of work on this, and I know that

Bhakti-Raghava Maharaja was working to develop a self-sufficient village.

Another one is Gunagrahi Maharaja, who is working on community development

in South America. There are probably others also.

 

So, it really is not fair to say that none of our leaders are working on

carrying out Srila Prabhupada's vision. One thing that has made it very

difficult to make progress so far is that so many people have ideas other

than the picture of simple living and varnasrama villages that Srila

Prabhupada presented. Instead, they become side-tracked by various Vedic

rituals and standards, or worse yet, even different business philosophies

that they think will develop community. Some of these things may have a

place in developing varnasrama, but it cannot be successful if we attempt

to give them the central place. The only thing that will be successful is

if we make Srila Prabhupada's vision -- which is specifically adapted for

our present age -- the central model.

 

I hope that now that we have at least one book which is composed entirely

of Srila Prabhupada's instructions on varnasrama and farm community

development, this will help create a common understanding of what he

wanted varnsrama to be for us. That common vision should help things

develop with somewhat more smoothly.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Sridhari (dd) JPS (Mendoza - ARG) wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Hare Krsna Mataji:

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

>

> I humbly need to thank you for you letter, it is the first time that I

> really read a practical solution to ALL ISKCON problems. Now it is time to

> quickly start make those changes, in order to heal our society, but my

 

Thank you for your kind response. But we have not yet heard from those

who are opposed to this aspect of Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I'm

sure they will have something to say.

 

> question is if you had been told that it wouldn't work, then is there some

> hope? For one side we hear that Gurus say that they cann't reject a

> candidate if he ask for shelter but at the same time, because they have so

> many discipules is very hard for them to manage care for the discipules...

 

 

We need to implement guru-selection training for our bhaktas. Otherwise

our current gurus will continue to be too overloaded to invest much time

and energy in providing meaningful varna counseling to their disciples.

Obviously, this will be a disaster if a guru just waves his hand and

pronounces, "You are a sudra; you are a vaisya; you are a brahmana" and so

on. Practically speaking, that type of designation of varna cannot work.

It will require more time and sensitivity.

 

One way around the over-burdened guru obstacle to developing varnasrama

that has been suggested is to encourage diksa gurus to encourage their

disciples to also take siksa gurus who would then do the actual varna

counseling and guidance. So this might be one possibility. It seems

unnecessarily round-about to me, but it might provide a valuable start in

the right direction.

 

I think the real solution lies in recognizing that there are already many

humble, but highly qualified disciples of Srila Prabhupada in our movement

who could be initiating their own disciples. To me they constitute a

vast, under-utilized resource in our movement. Let's train our bhaktas in

how to recognize these devotees and approach them for initiation.

 

I'm sure this will be a highly controversial point, but I think that

recent events have shown that our current "no-objection" method of

sanctioning a guru's ability to initiate has not been very successful in

protecting devotees against bogus gurus -- when approximately 50% of those

we had "no objection" to have fallen down. The latest such example, if I

understand correctly, is Dhanudhara Swami who has just been told that the

resume initiation in a couple more years, in spite of having a record of

violence and intimidation against ISKCON's children. Surely a solidly

developed program of guru-selection training could help bhaktas select

more qualified spiritual guidance than this.

 

Why should wonderful devotees like Nagaraja dasa, Pranada dasi, Kaulini

dasi, Yamaraja dasa, Jyotirmayi dasi, Visaka dasi, Krishna Dharma dasa and

Pancaratna dasa be ignored while others become overburdened with

disciples? It's almost offensive to mention only their names without

mentioning dozens more qualified Prabhupada disciples who currently have

no disciples of their own. And yet, because we do not conscientiously

train our bhaktas to recognize devotees like this as their personal

spiritual guides, these spiritual treasures of ISKCON's go under-utilized.

 

 

And it does no good to claim "no objection" does not mean that we claim

someone is qualified to initiate disciples, it just means that we have "no

objection." The practical fact is that the "no objection" list is the

defacto list of approved gurus in ISKCON. Probably more than 99% of all

ISKCON bhaktas will select as their guru someone who appears on the "no

objection" list. The reality is that to them "no objection" means "bona

fide spiritual master." That's how it plays out in real life.

 

> > ****NOTE: Whenever I suggest that we follow Srila Prabhupada's system

> and have

> > the spiritual master provide varna guidance to his disciples, I am told

> "That

> > is

> > impossible. How can a guru with 3000 disciples know them well enough to

> give

> > them guidance in their occupational duty as suggested by Prabhupada?" My

> > response is, after we've gone through so much suffering by not following

> Srila

> > Prabhupada's suggestion, maybe we should think of what changes we need to

> make

> > so we *can* follow his suggestion.***

>

> Do our actual leader still think that it is imposible? If they think so,

> where are they guiding us, neglecting Srila Prabhupada's instructions? I

> don't mean to be offensive with the question, I'm just trying to

> understand... how can we trust those who aren't loyaly following Srila

> Prabhupada's teachings.

>

> Again, Thank you very much,

>

> your servant, Sridhari dd

 

I guess I want to point out that we must still recognize that there are

actually a number of initiating spiritual masters and GBC who are serious

about establishing self-sufficient villages and starting varnasrama.

Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja has done a lot of work on this, and I know that

Bhakti-Raghava Maharaja was working to develop a self-sufficient village.

Another one is Gunagrahi Maharaja, who is working on community development

in South America. There are probably others also.

 

So, it really is not fair to say that none of our leaders are working on

carrying out Srila Prabhupada's vision. One thing that has made it very

difficult to make progress so far is that so many people have ideas other

than the picture of simple living and varnasrama villages that Srila

Prabhupada presented. Instead, they become side-tracked by various Vedic

rituals and standards, or worse yet, even different business philosophies

that they think will develop community. Some of these things may have a

place in developing varnasrama, but it cannot be successful if we attempt

to give them the central place. The only thing that will be successful is

if we make Srila Prabhupada's vision -- which is specifically adapted for

our present age -- the central model.

 

I hope that now that we have at least one book which is composed entirely

of Srila Prabhupada's instructions on varnasrama and farm community

development, this will help create a common understanding of what he

wanted varnsrama to be for us. That common vision should help things

develop with somewhat more smoothly.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

At 6:18 PM -0500 12/6/99, COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA) wrote:

>[Text 2836549 from COM]

 

>We have a mantra on the varnasrama.development conference: "Varna first, then

>asrama." We heard it from Srila Prabhupada in the Varnasrama Walks in March

>14,

>1974:

 

>***************************

>Hrdayananda: So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions, varna

>and asr... Learning a materia...

>Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is perfectly

>in

>order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and

>varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or

>they're on

>the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when

>the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is

>later on.

>Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

>Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

>varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

>position

>now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many

>unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be no

>question of unemployment.

>

>***********************

 

 

HKdd quotes a section of "Varnasrama Walks in March 14, 1974" and yet

neglects and/or compromises other sections. For examaple, in this same

Varnsrama Walk, Srila Prabhupada was asked how women would be trained

according to their varna. Prabhupada said they receive no varnsaram raining

in Varnasrama College; he barred women from Varnasrama College!

 

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to

cleanse home.

Satsvarupa: So they don't attend varnasrama college.

Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana,

ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras.

That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-sudra means.

That's all. They should assist the higher class.

 

Yet HKdd insists that women be allowed to act as brahmanas, ksatriyas and

vaisyas which Prabhupada has clearly established as exclusively male

domains. She has already emphatically stated that if "we continue to

neglect the extremely practical and psychologically realistic instruction

of our founder/acayra, we will forever experience pain, disappointment and

confusion as our new recruits don't all turn out to be brahmanas -- even

though we insist on training them that way." Yet we see how see backs down

from applying the complete instruction on varnasrama training propounding

instead her "puffed up concept of womanly life." What do you call someone

who does what he(she) condemns others of doing?

 

>Rather than force every young man to be a brahmana, a devotee's spiritual

>master

>should give him guidance as to which varna he will be most satisfied doing his

>devotional service in. Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual

>master

>should designate the varna of of a disciple:

 

Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

her husband?

 

ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

At 6:18 PM -0500 12/6/99, COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA) wrote:

>[Text 2836549 from COM]

 

>We have a mantra on the varnasrama.development conference: "Varna first, then

>asrama." We heard it from Srila Prabhupada in the Varnasrama Walks in March

>14,

>1974:

 

>***************************

>Hrdayananda: So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions, varna

>and asr... Learning a materia...

>Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is perfectly

>in

>order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and

>varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or

>they're on

>the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when

>the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is

>later on.

>Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

>Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

>varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

>position

>now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many

>unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be no

>question of unemployment.

>

>***********************

 

 

HKdd quotes a section of "Varnasrama Walks in March 14, 1974" and yet

neglects and/or compromises other sections. For examaple, in this same

Varnsrama Walk, Srila Prabhupada was asked how women would be trained

according to their varna. Prabhupada said they receive no varnsaram raining

in Varnasrama College; he barred women from Varnasrama College!

 

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to

cleanse home.

Satsvarupa: So they don't attend varnasrama college.

Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana,

ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras.

That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-sudra means.

That's all. They should assist the higher class.

 

Yet HKdd insists that women be allowed to act as brahmanas, ksatriyas and

vaisyas which Prabhupada has clearly established as exclusively male

domains. She has already emphatically stated that if "we continue to

neglect the extremely practical and psychologically realistic instruction

of our founder/acayra, we will forever experience pain, disappointment and

confusion as our new recruits don't all turn out to be brahmanas -- even

though we insist on training them that way." Yet we see how see backs down

from applying the complete instruction on varnasrama training propounding

instead her "puffed up concept of womanly life." What do you call someone

who does what he(she) condemns others of doing?

 

>Rather than force every young man to be a brahmana, a devotee's spiritual

>master

>should give him guidance as to which varna he will be most satisfied doing his

>devotional service in. Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual

>master

>should designate the varna of of a disciple:

 

Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

her husband?

 

ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> her husband?

>

Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> her husband?

>

Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

At 4:42 PM +0100 12/7/99, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

>[Text 2838450 from COM]

>

>> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

>> her husband?

>>

> Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

>position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

>men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

>animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

 

What does being a spirit soul have to do with any material occupations

(including GBC)?!

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

This is a real tangent and not the essence of the topic under discussion.

Srila

Prabhupada's instructions that the spiritual master should designate the varna

of

the disciple could even be applied in the all-male context that you advocate.

 

I will not get involved at this point in any discussion of whether women have

varnas. That is not the subject of the current conversation. If you want to

begin

that discussion -- please start with a different header. Don't just set up a

straw

man or red herring to divert our focus from the subject at hand.

 

I will not discuss the topic of women at this time.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

Jivan Mukta Dasa wrote:

 

> At 6:18 PM -0500 12/6/99, COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)

wrote:

> >[Text 2836549 from COM]

>

>

> Yet HKdd insists that women be allowed to act as brahmanas, ksatriyas and

> vaisyas which Prabhupada has clearly established as exclusively male

> domains. She has already emphatically stated that if "we continue to

> neglect the extremely practical and psychologically realistic instruction

> of our founder/acayra, we will forever experience pain, disappointment and

> confusion as our new recruits don't all turn out to be brahmanas -- even

> though we insist on training them that way." Yet we see how see backs down

> from applying the complete instruction on varnasrama training propounding

> instead her "puffed up concept of womanly life." What do you call someone

> who does what he(she) condemns others of doing?

>

> >Rather than force every young man to be a brahmana, a devotee's spiritual

> >master

> >should give him guidance as to which varna he will be most satisfied doing

his

> >devotional service in. Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual

> >master

> >should designate the varna of of a disciple:

>

> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> her husband?

>

> ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

"COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2838450 from COM]

>

> > Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> > her husband?

> >

> Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

> position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

> men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

> animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

> Ys. Sraddha dd

 

This is a very nice response, Prabhu. However, I warn you that this is just a

typical diversionary tactic being thrown up by Sita and Jivan Mukta to divert

the discussion from the topic of whether Srila Prabhupada said that the

spiritual master should designate the disciple's varna.

 

I believe that there are also a dozen other good arguments that Srila

Prabhupada indicated that a woman is not born in a certain varna. But this is

not the place for those arguments. If Sita wants to discuss that topic, she

should start her own heading about Women and Varnas or something.

 

Let's stick to the essential topic at hand.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

>This is a real tangent and not the essence of the topic under discussion.

>Srila

>Prabhupada's instructions that the spiritual master should designate the

>varna of

>the disciple could even be applied in the all-male context that you advocate.

 

What do you mean by "the all-male context that you advocate"? It seems by

your own refusal to include women in this topic that we should take what

you are saying to apply to men only. It is therefore not a complete

presentation, since women make up 50 percent or more of the population.

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

>This is a real tangent and not the essence of the topic under discussion.

>Srila

>Prabhupada's instructions that the spiritual master should designate the

>varna of

>the disciple could even be applied in the all-male context that you advocate.

 

What do you mean by "the all-male context that you advocate"? It seems by

your own refusal to include women in this topic that we should take what

you are saying to apply to men only. It is therefore not a complete

presentation, since women make up 50 percent or more of the population.

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

Please delete IWC from this thread.

 

ys

 

hkdd

 

Sita Devi Dasi wrote:

 

> [Text 2838587 from COM]

>

> >This is a real tangent and not the essence of the topic under discussion.

> >Srila

> >Prabhupada's instructions that the spiritual master should designate the

> >varna of

> >the disciple could even be applied in the all-male context that you

advocate.

>

> What do you mean by "the all-male context that you advocate"? It seems by

> your own refusal to include women in this topic that we should take what

> you are saying to apply to men only. It is therefore not a complete

> presentation, since women make up 50 percent or more of the population.

>

> Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

Please delete IWC from this thread.

 

ys

 

hkdd

 

Sita Devi Dasi wrote:

 

> [Text 2838587 from COM]

>

> >This is a real tangent and not the essence of the topic under discussion.

> >Srila

> >Prabhupada's instructions that the spiritual master should designate the

> >varna of

> >the disciple could even be applied in the all-male context that you

advocate.

>

> What do you mean by "the all-male context that you advocate"? It seems by

> your own refusal to include women in this topic that we should take what

> you are saying to apply to men only. It is therefore not a complete

> presentation, since women make up 50 percent or more of the population.

>

> Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

Dear Hare Krsna Mataji:

please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for you instructing, sincerous and quick response.

 

>

> I think the real solution lies in recognizing that there are already many

> humble, but highly qualified disciples of Srila Prabhupada in our

movement

> who could be initiating their own disciples.

 

yes, I agree with that too, seems to be that even that may be sound

non-logical, it will be need to put a numbers of discipules that a Guru can

initiate according to his services and posibilities to practical instruct

them and care them.

 

Let's train our bhaktas in

> how to recognize these devotees and approach them for initiation.

 

yes, This is another very important point. I have seen some candidates

being inititate without even reading Bhagavad-Gita one time, or without

even understanding the minimun of Vaisnava etiquette, or even worse without

following the 4 regs. but "someone" had consider that they can be recommend

anyway. So even those who decide to recomend a candidate have to be more

serious...

 

>

> Why should wonderful devotees like Nagaraja dasa, Pranada dasi, Kaulini

> dasi, Yamaraja dasa, Jyotirmayi dasi, Visaka dasi, Krishna Dharma dasa

and

> Pancaratna dasa be ignored while others become overburdened with

> disciples? It's almost offensive to mention only their names without

> mentioning dozens more qualified Prabhupada disciples who currently have

> no disciples of their own. And yet, because we do not conscientiously

> train our bhaktas to recognize devotees like this as their personal

> spiritual guides, these spiritual treasures of ISKCON's go

under-utilized.

 

Well, let me humbly tell you that I agree with you, but for other side, in

my zone, there are almost the same Gurus coming every time so we don't know

those spiritual treasures of ISKCON yet. May be it will be nice to consider

to send some of those devotees to preach on diferent zones of the world

including this very faraway land of Argentina-Chile-Paraguay-Perú-Uruguay

etc...

 

>

> I guess I want to point out that we must still recognize that there are

> actually a number of initiating spiritual masters and GBC who are serious

> about establishing self-sufficient villages and starting varnasrama.

 

But what happened with those that don't?

 

> Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja has done a lot of work on this, and I know that

> Bhakti-Raghava Maharaja was working to develop a self-sufficient village.

> Another one is Gunagrahi Maharaja, who is working on community

development

> in South America. There are probably others also.

 

yes, I know Gunagrahi Maharaja and I am very gratefull that Lord Sri Krsna

send him to us.

>

> So, it really is not fair to say that none of our leaders are working on

> carrying out Srila Prabhupada's vision.

 

yes, you are right, I have been unfair, I apologize, but some times we feel

cheat by some strange situations that happened and where we feel uncare by

our zone authorities.

 

The only thing that will be successful is

> if we make Srila Prabhupada's vision -- which is specifically adapted for

> our present age -- the central model.

 

yes, I hope that this can be start as soon as possible.

>

> I hope that now that we have at least one book which is composed entirely

> of Srila Prabhupada's instructions on varnasrama and farm community

> development, this will help create a common understanding of what he

> wanted varnsrama to be for us. That common vision should help things

> develop with somewhat more smoothly.

 

Again I have to thank you very much for your encouraging words.

 

your humble servant & spiritual niece, Sridhari devi dasi

[Guest guest]

Dear Hare Krsna Mataji:

please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for you instructing, sincerous and quick response.

 

>

> I think the real solution lies in recognizing that there are already many

> humble, but highly qualified disciples of Srila Prabhupada in our

movement

> who could be initiating their own disciples.

 

yes, I agree with that too, seems to be that even that may be sound

non-logical, it will be need to put a numbers of discipules that a Guru can

initiate according to his services and posibilities to practical instruct

them and care them.

 

Let's train our bhaktas in

> how to recognize these devotees and approach them for initiation.

 

yes, This is another very important point. I have seen some candidates

being inititate without even reading Bhagavad-Gita one time, or without

even understanding the minimun of Vaisnava etiquette, or even worse without

following the 4 regs. but "someone" had consider that they can be recommend

anyway. So even those who decide to recomend a candidate have to be more

serious...

 

>

> Why should wonderful devotees like Nagaraja dasa, Pranada dasi, Kaulini

> dasi, Yamaraja dasa, Jyotirmayi dasi, Visaka dasi, Krishna Dharma dasa

and

> Pancaratna dasa be ignored while others become overburdened with

> disciples? It's almost offensive to mention only their names without

> mentioning dozens more qualified Prabhupada disciples who currently have

> no disciples of their own. And yet, because we do not conscientiously

> train our bhaktas to recognize devotees like this as their personal

> spiritual guides, these spiritual treasures of ISKCON's go

under-utilized.

 

Well, let me humbly tell you that I agree with you, but for other side, in

my zone, there are almost the same Gurus coming every time so we don't know

those spiritual treasures of ISKCON yet. May be it will be nice to consider

to send some of those devotees to preach on diferent zones of the world

including this very faraway land of Argentina-Chile-Paraguay-Perú-Uruguay

etc...

 

>

> I guess I want to point out that we must still recognize that there are

> actually a number of initiating spiritual masters and GBC who are serious

> about establishing self-sufficient villages and starting varnasrama.

 

But what happened with those that don't?

 

> Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja has done a lot of work on this, and I know that

> Bhakti-Raghava Maharaja was working to develop a self-sufficient village.

> Another one is Gunagrahi Maharaja, who is working on community

development

> in South America. There are probably others also.

 

yes, I know Gunagrahi Maharaja and I am very gratefull that Lord Sri Krsna

send him to us.

>

> So, it really is not fair to say that none of our leaders are working on

> carrying out Srila Prabhupada's vision.

 

yes, you are right, I have been unfair, I apologize, but some times we feel

cheat by some strange situations that happened and where we feel uncare by

our zone authorities.

 

The only thing that will be successful is

> if we make Srila Prabhupada's vision -- which is specifically adapted for

> our present age -- the central model.

 

yes, I hope that this can be start as soon as possible.

>

> I hope that now that we have at least one book which is composed entirely

> of Srila Prabhupada's instructions on varnasrama and farm community

> development, this will help create a common understanding of what he

> wanted varnsrama to be for us. That common vision should help things

> develop with somewhat more smoothly.

 

Again I have to thank you very much for your encouraging words.

 

your humble servant & spiritual niece, Sridhari devi dasi

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna dasi wrote:

 

> Otherwise

> our current gurus will continue to be too overloaded to invest much time

> and energy in providing meaningful varna counseling to their disciples.

> Obviously, this will be a disaster if a guru just waves his hand and

> pronounces, "You are a sudra; you are a vaisya; you are a brahmana" and so

> on. Practically speaking, that type of designation of varna cannot work.

> It will require more time and sensitivity.

 

Here are two nice quotes which shed more light on the varna designation

process:

 

"By psychology, by horoscope, by birth-right, the children of the

Gita-Nagari community shall be divided into different destined works. It

is, however, possible to make a change of this general rule under special

cases. The educational institution at Gita Nagari will, as a matter of

fact, try to create a greater number of students having the necessary

qualifications of a brahmana by developing such culture in him, because in

the Kali-age there is a big scarcity of the brahmana class. Therefore,

Gita Nagari, by its cultural propaganda and otherwise, can create any

number of brahmanas provided the candidates are available."

 

(Srila Prabhupada in "Interpretations of the Bhagavad-gita", quoted in

ISKCON farm newsletter, vol.2, no.1)

 

 

"Unless a child is trained according to his tendency, there is no

possibility of his developing his particular spirit. It was the duty of

the spiritual master or teacher to observe the psychological movement of a

particular boy and thus train him in a particular occupational duty."

(SB 4.8.36)

 

 

Here Prabhupada clearly says that it was the duty of the guru or the teacher

to "observe the psychological movement of a particular boy". If the guru has

3000 disciples and is constantly travelling all over the world he may not be

in a position to do this. In this case, the teacher(s)of the boy should

advise the parents which occupation is most suitable for him. However if

both guru and teacher are unable or unwilling to do that, I guess the

parents should do it themselves. If they like, they can consult an expert

astrologer and they can discuss the matter with experienced well-wishers.

But the main point is that every single child has to be trained in a

particular occupational duty.

 

ys Anantarupa das

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna dasi wrote:

 

> Otherwise

> our current gurus will continue to be too overloaded to invest much time

> and energy in providing meaningful varna counseling to their disciples.

> Obviously, this will be a disaster if a guru just waves his hand and

> pronounces, "You are a sudra; you are a vaisya; you are a brahmana" and so

> on. Practically speaking, that type of designation of varna cannot work.

> It will require more time and sensitivity.

 

Here are two nice quotes which shed more light on the varna designation

process:

 

"By psychology, by horoscope, by birth-right, the children of the

Gita-Nagari community shall be divided into different destined works. It

is, however, possible to make a change of this general rule under special

cases. The educational institution at Gita Nagari will, as a matter of

fact, try to create a greater number of students having the necessary

qualifications of a brahmana by developing such culture in him, because in

the Kali-age there is a big scarcity of the brahmana class. Therefore,

Gita Nagari, by its cultural propaganda and otherwise, can create any

number of brahmanas provided the candidates are available."

 

(Srila Prabhupada in "Interpretations of the Bhagavad-gita", quoted in

ISKCON farm newsletter, vol.2, no.1)

 

 

"Unless a child is trained according to his tendency, there is no

possibility of his developing his particular spirit. It was the duty of

the spiritual master or teacher to observe the psychological movement of a

particular boy and thus train him in a particular occupational duty."

(SB 4.8.36)

 

 

Here Prabhupada clearly says that it was the duty of the guru or the teacher

to "observe the psychological movement of a particular boy". If the guru has

3000 disciples and is constantly travelling all over the world he may not be

in a position to do this. In this case, the teacher(s)of the boy should

advise the parents which occupation is most suitable for him. However if

both guru and teacher are unable or unwilling to do that, I guess the

parents should do it themselves. If they like, they can consult an expert

astrologer and they can discuss the matter with experienced well-wishers.

But the main point is that every single child has to be trained in a

particular occupational duty.

 

ys Anantarupa das

[Guest guest]

Sita Devi Dasi wrote:

 

> [Text 2838516 from COM]

>

> At 4:42 PM +0100 12/7/99, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

> >[Text 2838450 from COM]

> >

> >> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> >> her husband?

> >>

> > Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

> >position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

> >men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

> >animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

>

> What does being a spirit soul have to do with any material occupations

> (including GBC)?!

>

> Ys, Sdd

 

So, all ISKCON management is material.

[Guest guest]

Sita Devi Dasi wrote:

 

> [Text 2838516 from COM]

>

> At 4:42 PM +0100 12/7/99, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

> >[Text 2838450 from COM]

> >

> >> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> >> her husband?

> >>

> > Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

> >position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

> >men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

> >animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

>

> What does being a spirit soul have to do with any material occupations

> (including GBC)?!

>

> Ys, Sdd

 

So, all ISKCON management is material.

[Guest guest]

>

> > What does being a spirit soul have to do with any material occupations

> > (including GBC)?!

> >

> > Ys, Sdd

>

>So, all ISKCON management is material.

 

Good point. We're discussing *devotional service* here.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> > What does being a spirit soul have to do with any material occupations

> > (including GBC)?!

> >

> > Ys, Sdd

>

>So, all ISKCON management is material.

 

Good point. We're discussing *devotional service* here.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/99 12:40:59 AM Central Standard Time,

btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

 

<< Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

her husband?

 

ys. JMd

>>

 

Yes. In the early 70's Prabhupada said that women didn't have to get married

if they didn't want to. Also, I discovered that a brahmacarini asrama is not

a new creation but actually existed in ancient times.

 

I think the point is that one standard may be for the general populace in a

"vedic" social system and another standard for the devotees who are preachers

and educators. Otherwise, if women are not meant to be trained

brahminically, why did Prabhupada give them brahminical initiation, have them

attend classes, encourage them to preach, to deity worship, etc.?

 

Ys, Mahatma dasa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/99 12:40:59 AM Central Standard Time,

btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

 

<< Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

her husband?

 

ys. JMd

>>

 

Yes. In the early 70's Prabhupada said that women didn't have to get married

if they didn't want to. Also, I discovered that a brahmacarini asrama is not

a new creation but actually existed in ancient times.

 

I think the point is that one standard may be for the general populace in a

"vedic" social system and another standard for the devotees who are preachers

and educators. Otherwise, if women are not meant to be trained

brahminically, why did Prabhupada give them brahminical initiation, have them

attend classes, encourage them to preach, to deity worship, etc.?

 

Ys, Mahatma dasa