Diksa guru as personal spiritual guide

[Guest guest]

On 22 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

> I did it with the specific purpose -- to get you start objecting

> me calling her bogus. I knew you would react like that, stand up

> in her defense.

 

 

Well aren't you just a tricky guy!

 

 

> Now, we have achieved something. Keep the same mood for ISCKON gurus.

> Have *at least* the same full confidence that their disciples

> will become purified by following them. Never allow someone to

> hint that they might be bogus due to not being uttama-adhikaris.

> Let none disrespect them.

 

 

I will definitely go along with this if you will go along with letting anyone

who wants to accept Srila Prabhupada as their guru by their free choice.

[Guest guest]

On 22 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

> I did it with the specific purpose -- to get you start objecting

> me calling her bogus. I knew you would react like that, stand up

> in her defense.

 

 

Well aren't you just a tricky guy!

 

 

> Now, we have achieved something. Keep the same mood for ISCKON gurus.

> Have *at least* the same full confidence that their disciples

> will become purified by following them. Never allow someone to

> hint that they might be bogus due to not being uttama-adhikaris.

> Let none disrespect them.

 

 

I will definitely go along with this if you will go along with letting anyone

who wants to accept Srila Prabhupada as their guru by their free choice.

[Guest guest]

On 22 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

> I am, in principle, not in favor of the approach "What's the

> use of not 100% pure gold". There is.

>

> If there is not, then, as Samba prabhu suggested, let's pray

> to God to supply us pure gold only, since we find no use of

> any less than fully pure.

 

 

 

Why not depend upon the 100% pure if its available?

"Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, when you're not present with us, how is it

possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my

books."

(Conv. 5/13/73)

 

"So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then

all your questions will be answered."

(Letter Upendra 1/7/76)

 

"These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he

is hearing."

(Letter Rupanuga 10/19/74)

 

"In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully, so if

there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read

again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by

this process your spiritual life will develop."

(Letter Baharupa 11/22/74)

 

"Everyone of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning

and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered."

(Letter Ranadhir 1/24/70)

[Guest guest]

On 22 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

> I am, in principle, not in favor of the approach "What's the

> use of not 100% pure gold". There is.

>

> If there is not, then, as Samba prabhu suggested, let's pray

> to God to supply us pure gold only, since we find no use of

> any less than fully pure.

 

 

 

Why not depend upon the 100% pure if its available?

"Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, when you're not present with us, how is it

possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my

books."

(Conv. 5/13/73)

 

"So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then

all your questions will be answered."

(Letter Upendra 1/7/76)

 

"These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he

is hearing."

(Letter Rupanuga 10/19/74)

 

"In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully, so if

there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have to read

again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by

this process your spiritual life will develop."

(Letter Baharupa 11/22/74)

 

"Everyone of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning

and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered."

(Letter Ranadhir 1/24/70)

[Guest guest]

On 22 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> No, but finding someone who is special and who inspires you in your

> spiritual life is no small thing. Jayapataka Maharaja has done more for my

> spiritual life than anyone else. He has been there to answer my questions,

> to help me with my doubts, to encourage me and nudge me gently along ever

> so patiently, without ever criticising me. Without him, I'd be nowhere,

> spiritually speaking. I pray that nothing will ever happen to him, but

> even if it does, that does not reduce the value of the gifts he has already

> given me. Those gifts include having brought me closer to his own

> spiritual father, my spiritual grandfather. I was unable to get there

> without him. None of this means that I'm saying he is perfect, just that

> he's been exactly what I needed and when I needed it. That includes his

> role as my diksa guru. I want no one else. Why should his godbrothers even

> care?

 

 

I think this is wonderful. Truly. You must understand that I never had

"personal" association with Srila Prabhupada and he was "here" for four years

while I was involved. My association was with my godbrothers and sisters who

helped me intimately everyday of the week in my Krsna consciousness. Some have

remained very, very close friends with whom I share any detail of my life and

concerns and friendship. They molded my Krsna consciousness. They directed me

to Srila Prabhupada's service always even though he wasn't "there". I never

questioned or "craved" that I "had" to have Srila Prabhupada's

"personal/bodily" presence to feel complete in my Krsna consciousness. If I

had demanded such I would have been philosophically defeated quickly, easily

and soundly in the temple.

 

I can accept that you are finding such association with my senior godbrother,

Jayapataka Prabhu. It is excellent.

 

But do you have some objection from others choosing Srila Prabhupada's service

in the same manner as I did, now? Can one only choose the gurus that are

mandated as bonafide gurus by the GBC? Even though they have designated

several who were not qualified? You, from what I know of you, would surely

doubt such judgement.

 

And if we believe what Srila Prabhupada says is true: "I shall remain your

personal guidance, physically present or not physically, as I am getting

personal guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

(Conv. 7/14/77)

 

and,

 

"I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in

His service His pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve the Spiritual

Master's word is more important than to serve him physically."

(Letter Syamasundara 7/19/70)

 

 

can we not offer people to choose Srila Prabhupada as their guru in the same

manner?

[Guest guest]

On 22 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> No, but finding someone who is special and who inspires you in your

> spiritual life is no small thing. Jayapataka Maharaja has done more for my

> spiritual life than anyone else. He has been there to answer my questions,

> to help me with my doubts, to encourage me and nudge me gently along ever

> so patiently, without ever criticising me. Without him, I'd be nowhere,

> spiritually speaking. I pray that nothing will ever happen to him, but

> even if it does, that does not reduce the value of the gifts he has already

> given me. Those gifts include having brought me closer to his own

> spiritual father, my spiritual grandfather. I was unable to get there

> without him. None of this means that I'm saying he is perfect, just that

> he's been exactly what I needed and when I needed it. That includes his

> role as my diksa guru. I want no one else. Why should his godbrothers even

> care?

 

 

I think this is wonderful. Truly. You must understand that I never had

"personal" association with Srila Prabhupada and he was "here" for four years

while I was involved. My association was with my godbrothers and sisters who

helped me intimately everyday of the week in my Krsna consciousness. Some have

remained very, very close friends with whom I share any detail of my life and

concerns and friendship. They molded my Krsna consciousness. They directed me

to Srila Prabhupada's service always even though he wasn't "there". I never

questioned or "craved" that I "had" to have Srila Prabhupada's

"personal/bodily" presence to feel complete in my Krsna consciousness. If I

had demanded such I would have been philosophically defeated quickly, easily

and soundly in the temple.

 

I can accept that you are finding such association with my senior godbrother,

Jayapataka Prabhu. It is excellent.

 

But do you have some objection from others choosing Srila Prabhupada's service

in the same manner as I did, now? Can one only choose the gurus that are

mandated as bonafide gurus by the GBC? Even though they have designated

several who were not qualified? You, from what I know of you, would surely

doubt such judgement.

 

And if we believe what Srila Prabhupada says is true: "I shall remain your

personal guidance, physically present or not physically, as I am getting

personal guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

(Conv. 7/14/77)

 

and,

 

"I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in

His service His pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve the Spiritual

Master's word is more important than to serve him physically."

(Letter Syamasundara 7/19/70)

 

 

can we not offer people to choose Srila Prabhupada as their guru in the same

manner?

[Guest guest]

At 6:12 -0800 5/22/99, WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

>

>Being "special" to someone is far different than being a pure devotee. Many of

>my godbrothers, including Harikesha and Kirtanananda were very special to me.

>I have many current godbrothers who are very close friends and are very

>special to me and my Krsna consciousness, but that doesn't mean they/are were

>pure devotees.

 

No, but finding someone who is special and who inspires you in your

spiritual life is no small thing. Jayapataka Maharaja has done more for my

spiritual life than anyone else. He has been there to answer my questions,

to help me with my doubts, to encourage me and nudge me gently along ever

so patiently, without ever criticising me. Without him, I'd be nowhere,

spiritually speaking. I pray that nothing will ever happen to him, but

even if it does, that does not reduce the value of the gifts he has already

given me. Those gifts include having brought me closer to his own

spiritual father, my spiritual grandfather. I was unable to get there

without him. None of this means that I'm saying he is perfect, just that

he's been exactly what I needed and when I needed it. That includes his

role as my diksa guru. I want no one else. Why should his godbrothers even

care?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 6:12 -0800 5/22/99, WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

>

>Being "special" to someone is far different than being a pure devotee. Many of

>my godbrothers, including Harikesha and Kirtanananda were very special to me.

>I have many current godbrothers who are very close friends and are very

>special to me and my Krsna consciousness, but that doesn't mean they/are were

>pure devotees.

 

No, but finding someone who is special and who inspires you in your

spiritual life is no small thing. Jayapataka Maharaja has done more for my

spiritual life than anyone else. He has been there to answer my questions,

to help me with my doubts, to encourage me and nudge me gently along ever

so patiently, without ever criticising me. Without him, I'd be nowhere,

spiritually speaking. I pray that nothing will ever happen to him, but

even if it does, that does not reduce the value of the gifts he has already

given me. Those gifts include having brought me closer to his own

spiritual father, my spiritual grandfather. I was unable to get there

without him. None of this means that I'm saying he is perfect, just that

he's been exactly what I needed and when I needed it. That includes his

role as my diksa guru. I want no one else. Why should his godbrothers even

care?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>I can accept that you are finding such association with my senior godbrother,

>Jayapataka Prabhu. It is excellent.

>

 

Thank you.

 

>Even though they have designated several who were not qualified?

>You, from what I know of you, would surely

>doubt such judgement.

 

You're right. They have shown from their previous actions that they are

fallible and that they don't have any crystal ball. Entering into the

guru-disciple relationship is a huge responsibility. I don't see the GBC

backing up their endorsements (or "no objections") with any guarantee, such

as "if your guru falls, we'll be there to take you back Home". That's why

this choice is ultimately up to the prospective disciple and to the

prospective guru. The two of them need to come to a mutual agreement before

entering into a diksa relationship.

 

>can we not offer people to choose Srila Prabhupada as their guru in the same

>manner?

 

Of course devotees can still serve Prabhupada and take instruction from him

as their main siksa guru- but why does he have to be their diksa guru? If

devotees who join today don't have faith in any of the current gurus on

this planet (in or outside of ISKCON), why not hold off with diksa until

they find a guru who inspires such faith? I know this is easy for me to

say, having already been initiated (although it took me 20 years of

association to get there), but I really think diksa is way over-emphasized.

It's not a condition for spiritual advancement. It's not even a condition

for going back Home.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>I can accept that you are finding such association with my senior godbrother,

>Jayapataka Prabhu. It is excellent.

>

 

Thank you.

 

>Even though they have designated several who were not qualified?

>You, from what I know of you, would surely

>doubt such judgement.

 

You're right. They have shown from their previous actions that they are

fallible and that they don't have any crystal ball. Entering into the

guru-disciple relationship is a huge responsibility. I don't see the GBC

backing up their endorsements (or "no objections") with any guarantee, such

as "if your guru falls, we'll be there to take you back Home". That's why

this choice is ultimately up to the prospective disciple and to the

prospective guru. The two of them need to come to a mutual agreement before

entering into a diksa relationship.

 

>can we not offer people to choose Srila Prabhupada as their guru in the same

>manner?

 

Of course devotees can still serve Prabhupada and take instruction from him

as their main siksa guru- but why does he have to be their diksa guru? If

devotees who join today don't have faith in any of the current gurus on

this planet (in or outside of ISKCON), why not hold off with diksa until

they find a guru who inspires such faith? I know this is easy for me to

say, having already been initiated (although it took me 20 years of

association to get there), but I really think diksa is way over-emphasized.

It's not a condition for spiritual advancement. It's not even a condition

for going back Home.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> > You cannot understand how even a "small" guru can be someone special to

> > his disciples. That's the "godbrother syndrome": your godbrothers can't

> > be special to you, so can't to anyone else.

>

>

> Being "special" to someone is far different than being a pure devotee.

> Many of my godbrothers, including Harikesha and Kirtanananda were very

> special to me. I have many current godbrothers who are very close friends

> and are very special to me and my Krsna consciousness, but that doesn't

> mean they/are were pure devotees.

>

 

I didn't expect you will understand it. So, let's leave it aside.

 

 

> It seems you want everyone to just set aside the whole idea of

> uttama-adhikari gurus as desirable simply because you don't feel that the

> current ISKCON gurus could stand up to the public scrutiny of their

> qualifications by people that know enough about guru qualifications to see

> that Srila Prabhupada is such a guru.

 

Not so.

 

The present ISCKON gurus and their disciples are sincerely

caring on with the mission of Srila Prabhupada, in spite

of whatever imperfections there might be on their behalf.

Now, if those "people that know about guru qualifications"

got something better, then come up with it. Stop simply

bombarding everybody with quotes from Folio on what the

uttam-adhikari guru is. Everybody knows it already, long

time ago.

 

The posthumous rtvik theory is a concoctions, and would not

give us any better siksa gurus than there are already anyway.

Simply the initiation itself from a maha-bhagavata is not

sufficient.

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

>

> No one has to make "a fuss" about someone taking a guru who is not an

> uttama-adhikari, that is their free choice, but that doesn't mean the

> standard should be forgotten and erased.

 

OK. Keep posting the "standard".

 

 

>

> And if there IS an uttama-adhikari available (which there IS) it would

> only be good practice to direct people to that person.

 

Then do it.

 

 

>

> It IS up to you, Prabhu. You have free choice and I will not think less of

> you as a person. Srila Prabhupada established the standard for pure guru.

> There is nothing wrong with declaring this standard boldly to the public -

> he certainly did all the time. It is of service to the public to do so in

> order to thwart the cheating gurus all over the world. Then people can

> exercise their free will to choose wisely from the choices available. Some

> pick correctly, some do not. That is a fact.

 

While we are vasting our time here in this hopeless discussion,

the hundreds and thousands of disciples of such "cheating gurus"

that are not meeting the "established standard" are serving Srila

Prabhupada in some of ISCKON preaching projects.

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

>

> > You cannot understand how even a "small" guru can be someone special to

> > his disciples. That's the "godbrother syndrome": your godbrothers can't

> > be special to you, so can't to anyone else.

>

>

> Being "special" to someone is far different than being a pure devotee.

> Many of my godbrothers, including Harikesha and Kirtanananda were very

> special to me. I have many current godbrothers who are very close friends

> and are very special to me and my Krsna consciousness, but that doesn't

> mean they/are were pure devotees.

>

 

I didn't expect you will understand it. So, let's leave it aside.

 

 

> It seems you want everyone to just set aside the whole idea of

> uttama-adhikari gurus as desirable simply because you don't feel that the

> current ISKCON gurus could stand up to the public scrutiny of their

> qualifications by people that know enough about guru qualifications to see

> that Srila Prabhupada is such a guru.

 

Not so.

 

The present ISCKON gurus and their disciples are sincerely

caring on with the mission of Srila Prabhupada, in spite

of whatever imperfections there might be on their behalf.

Now, if those "people that know about guru qualifications"

got something better, then come up with it. Stop simply

bombarding everybody with quotes from Folio on what the

uttam-adhikari guru is. Everybody knows it already, long

time ago.

 

The posthumous rtvik theory is a concoctions, and would not

give us any better siksa gurus than there are already anyway.

Simply the initiation itself from a maha-bhagavata is not

sufficient.

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

>

>

> That is the crux upon which this whole problem rests, unsoundly. Your

> entire argument rests upon the assumption that "there is no such

> "never-before-conditioned resident of Krsna-loka" here" from whom to

> accept initiation/instructions. That is a false assumption based upon

> misinformation and blind following. If that illusion was cleared the

> problem would go away.

 

First of all, I said "**if** there is no such...", leaving to

everybody to make up his own mind if there is or if there is

not, to take it as he likes. You were so eager to cut out that

"if" an leave only "there is no", to let it sound differently

than intended.

 

I don't know wether there is or there is not such. If there

is, then people will go to him. If there is no, then people

will go to others who might not be such nittya-siddha. But

people will go to **someone** for the instruction and initiation.

 

 

And second of all. You are lifting here the part of the Folio

to "prove" how there is such one to go for instruction/initiatin,

Srila Prabhupada. But what you are ignoring to notice is that

Srila Prabhupada speaks about already **established** relationship

between a physically departed spiritual master and his *disciples*.

Not a prospective candidates for initiation and siksa. And you

are talking here about "assumptions", "misinformations", "illusion"..!

 

If you want to apply rightly those quotes, then apply them

on Samba prabhu's claim that Srila Prabhupada's disciple got

to hear Prabhupada from an another acarya in order to get

delivered. (Samba prabhu, here are the clear Prabhupada's

statements contradicting your conclusion).

 

 

ys mnd

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

> Why not depend upon the 100% pure if its available?

> "Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, when you're not present with us, how is it

> possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may

> arise... Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there

> in my books."

> (Conv. 5/13/73)

>

> "So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books.

> Then all your questions will be answered."

> (Letter Upendra 1/7/76)

>

> "These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads,

> he is hearing."

>

> "In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully,

> so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have

> to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed

> to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop."

> (Letter Baharupa 11/22/74)

>

> "Everyone of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the

> morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered."

> (Letter Ranadhir 1/24/70)

 

 

 

This is rather for Samba prabhu, I would say. He hasn't seen,

so far, a text that would directly contradict his conclusion

that unless the text written by Prabhupada is HEARD from the

lips of an another pure devotee, it falls into the category of

empiric study. That his writings can't be understood otherwise.

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

> Why not depend upon the 100% pure if its available?

> "Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, when you're not present with us, how is it

> possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may

> arise... Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there

> in my books."

> (Conv. 5/13/73)

>

> "So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books.

> Then all your questions will be answered."

> (Letter Upendra 1/7/76)

>

> "These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads,

> he is hearing."

>

> "In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully,

> so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have

> to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed

> to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop."

> (Letter Baharupa 11/22/74)

>

> "Everyone of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the

> morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered."

> (Letter Ranadhir 1/24/70)

 

 

 

This is rather for Samba prabhu, I would say. He hasn't seen,

so far, a text that would directly contradict his conclusion

that unless the text written by Prabhupada is HEARD from the

lips of an another pure devotee, it falls into the category of

empiric study. That his writings can't be understood otherwise.

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

On 22 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

 

> >can we not offer people to choose Srila Prabhupada as their guru in the

same

> >manner?

>

 

> Of course devotees can still serve Prabhupada and take instruction from him

> as their main siksa guru- but why does he have to be their diksa guru? If

> devotees who join today don't have faith in any of the current gurus on

> this planet (in or outside of ISKCON), why not hold off with diksa until

> they find a guru who inspires such faith? I know this is easy for me to

> say, having already been initiated (although it took me 20 years of

> association to get there), but I really think diksa is way over-emphasized.

> It's not a condition for spiritual advancement. It's not even a condition

> for going back Home.

 

 

 

Now this would be a monumental paradigm shift in current ISKCON which could

completely stem the tide of disaccord and bogus-guru disease. I commend you

for your broad-mindedness. Sincerely.

 

20, 30, 40 years, whatever it takes to have that right connection.

 

 

I do not "fully" agree, as always :-), because I think Srila Prabhupada can

serve as the only guru one needs even if he is "only" ones siksa guru all his

life. But still I would very much welcome your proposal.

 

One point, if I could: Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur accepted as his

guru, Narottama Dasa Thakur who had left the planet 100 years earlier. This is

certainly a very, very important consideration in our parampara, don't you

think?

 

 

Thank you very much for your intelligent response. It is refreshing.

 

Janesh

[Guest guest]

On 22 May 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

 

> >can we not offer people to choose Srila Prabhupada as their guru in the

same

> >manner?

>

 

> Of course devotees can still serve Prabhupada and take instruction from him

> as their main siksa guru- but why does he have to be their diksa guru? If

> devotees who join today don't have faith in any of the current gurus on

> this planet (in or outside of ISKCON), why not hold off with diksa until

> they find a guru who inspires such faith? I know this is easy for me to

> say, having already been initiated (although it took me 20 years of

> association to get there), but I really think diksa is way over-emphasized.

> It's not a condition for spiritual advancement. It's not even a condition

> for going back Home.

 

 

 

Now this would be a monumental paradigm shift in current ISKCON which could

completely stem the tide of disaccord and bogus-guru disease. I commend you

for your broad-mindedness. Sincerely.

 

20, 30, 40 years, whatever it takes to have that right connection.

 

 

I do not "fully" agree, as always :-), because I think Srila Prabhupada can

serve as the only guru one needs even if he is "only" ones siksa guru all his

life. But still I would very much welcome your proposal.

 

One point, if I could: Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur accepted as his

guru, Narottama Dasa Thakur who had left the planet 100 years earlier. This is

certainly a very, very important consideration in our parampara, don't you

think?

 

 

Thank you very much for your intelligent response. It is refreshing.

 

Janesh

[Guest guest]

So how will this all be resolved? These statements of Srila Prabhupada seem

to contradict the statements of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and even Srila

Prabhupada himself, in other places.

 

The more I read the more I conclude that it would be so helpful if we had a

pure devotee present physicaly (one with actual lips) who could unravel all

this. Then we could progress in spiritual life without any confusion. Surely

without the help of a self realised soul we can carry on this debate, as

long as we can dredge up more and more seemingly contradictory texts, to

establish our particular viewpoints.

 

> Why not depend upon the 100% pure if its available?

> "Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, when you're not present with us, how is it

> possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may

> arise... Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there

> in my books."

> (Conv. 5/13/73)

 

The above is a conversation and below are all letters to particular

disciples. Who knows what they asked? But they were Prabhupadas disciples,

and these were living instructions. It would be nice to see the entire

letters. I always understood that letters need to be seen in context, and

that they are not considered as authoritative as literature. Can anyone

cofirm that?

 

> "So utilize whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books.

> Then all your questions will be answered."

> (Letter Upendra 1/7/76)

 

Questions like how to advance in KC, by surrendering to a pure devotee?

>

> "These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads,

> he is hearing."

> (Letter Rupanuga 10/19/74)

>

> "In my books the philosophy of Krishna Consciousness is explained fully,

> so if there is anything which you do not understand, then you simply have

> to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed

> to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop."

> (Letter Baharupa 11/22/74)

 

Pretty clear to me. Simply follow the instructions in the books and all will

be well. You can read... 'surrender to a pure devotee', but if you dont

actualy DO it, there will still be effect?

>

> "Everyone of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the

> morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered."

> (Letter Ranadhir 1/24/70)

 

YS sd

[Guest guest]

> If you want to apply rightly those quotes, then apply them

> on Samba prabhu's claim that Srila Prabhupada's disciple got

> to hear Prabhupada from an another acarya in order to get

> delivered. (Samba prabhu, here are the clear Prabhupada's

> statements contradicting your conclusion).

 

Gosh! You mean there are some quotes out there which contradict the quote I

posted? Well blow me down! Holy mother of God! Santa Maria Virgina!

 

GOD dang it! Sounds to me like we need some help to sort all this out. Tell

you what, lets just vote for someone to choose some quotes, and we will all

just accept those, and we can then spend more time doing other things? Or am

I being just way too sarcastic?

 

Here is a nice apparent contradiction!

 

1.

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the

platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on

the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must

be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot

advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient

guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an

uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master."

2.

"Prabhupada: Now, they're competent. They can, not only the swamis, even

the grhasthas, they are called dasa adhikari, and brahmacaris, everyone

can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a

matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual

master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can

make disciples and spread" (Conversation Detroit July 18, 1971)

 

YS Sd

[Guest guest]

On 23 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

 

 

 

> Here is a nice apparent contradiction!

 

> 1.

> "One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the

> platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on

> the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must

> be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot

> advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient

> guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an

> uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master."

> 2.

> "Prabhupada: Now, they're competent. They can, not only the swamis, even

> the grhasthas, they are called dasa adhikari, and brahmacaris, everyone

> can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a

> matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual

> master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can

> make disciples and spread" (Conversation Detroit July 18, 1971)

 

 

It's funny you should present these two quotes because I was going to do the

exact same thing a few days ago. Excellent choices Prabhu!

 

I will not lend my concoctions to their interpretations, however. I "think" I

know what they mean, but it is going to have to stay private with me in my

heart and mind for now.

 

Thanks.

[Guest guest]

On 23 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

 

 

 

> Here is a nice apparent contradiction!

 

> 1.

> "One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the

> platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on

> the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must

> be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot

> advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient

> guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an

> uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master."

> 2.

> "Prabhupada: Now, they're competent. They can, not only the swamis, even

> the grhasthas, they are called dasa adhikari, and brahmacaris, everyone

> can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a

> matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual

> master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can

> make disciples and spread" (Conversation Detroit July 18, 1971)

 

 

It's funny you should present these two quotes because I was going to do the

exact same thing a few days ago. Excellent choices Prabhu!

 

I will not lend my concoctions to their interpretations, however. I "think" I

know what they mean, but it is going to have to stay private with me in my

heart and mind for now.

 

Thanks.

[Guest guest]

On 23 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

> So how will this all be resolved? These statements of Srila Prabhupada seem

> to contradict the statements of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and even Srila

> Prabhupada himself, in other places.

 

 

"Seem" to contradict is a good choice of words, Prabhu. Obviously, there is no

contradiction only misunderstanding on our limited brain's part.

 

One small suggestion I would have is, that Srila Prabhupada followed

Bhaktisiddhanta as the current acarya, therefore one must defer to his words

first, don't you think?

 

> The more I read the more I conclude that it would be so helpful if we had a

> pure devotee present physicaly (one with actual lips) who could unravel all

> this.

 

 

Boy, would that be nice! The following quotes are all spectacular to me and

the essence is, as usual, the Books. The pure devotee(s) we seek is/are in

those books. In my opinion, Krsna sent a pure devotee to earth again to spend

13 years here to talk a lot and write a lot of books and letters, which should

be considered sastra. The most current authoritative siddhanta there is, is

available in those books. I think we need to pray for the pure devotee, too.

But I think we need to pray to understand the pure devotee in the Books.

 

 

Now, understanding them is another thing. That's the tough part, made tougher

mostly I think because some people with ulterior motives can't handle the fact

that the books are available to everyone in this age, on this planet, equally,

and therefore the playing field has been leveled by the pure devotee. And many

people can't handle it because they want to have a measuring system in order

to create bureaucracy, institutional formality, self-worship, followers, etc.

Thus things like diksa become a focus, emphasis and priority, and the

essential things like Bhagavat and varnasrama become secondary or forgotten.

Bhagavat and VAD are open, broad-minded, equality-conscious, friendship based

paradigms not easily controlled by egotistical bureaucrats. An individual can

grasp the purport of Bhagavata and apply VAD to his life independent of

institutional, formality, and ritual-based organization, through the books and

words of a pure devotee (siksa), and find incredible success and progress in

his human cultural development.

Control freak leaders don't like that.

 

> Then we could progress in spiritual life without any confusion. Surely

> without the help of a self realised soul we can carry on this debate, as

> long as we can dredge up more and more seemingly contradictory texts, to

> establish our particular viewpoints.

 

 

Debate will be there until the end of time, with a pure devotee here or not.

There was plenty of debate in my time when Srila Prabhupada was "here".

 

 

 

 

> > Why not depend upon the 100% pure if its available?

> > "Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, when you're not present with us, how is it

> > possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may

> > arise... Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there

> > in my books."

> > (Conv. 5/13/73)

 

 

 

I really truly think the key is TIME. Time spent practically - reading the

Books regularly, implementing varnasrama (which could take all of our time for

years), and spending MUCH less time discussing diksa gurus.

 

The Books will reveal all of the answers for us if we work together toward the

same goal of establishing proper Vedic culture - varnasrama-dharma. This will

place the emphasis on siksa spiritual development according to guna and

karma - NOT according to the dictates of a few over-emphasized diksa gurus. We

will begin to see strong, independent, self-confident, spiritually

self-reliant, friendly, varna oriented devotees. What could be nicer?

 

As far as I'm concerned there can be dozens of diksa gurus around to perform

the formality of initiation but their authority over a disciple ends there.

"You were my diksa guru, thank you very much. Please accept my obeisances. Now

I must get to work." Siksa must be the emphasis and 90% must come from the

Books or be directly in pursuance of the teachings of the Books.

 

If a new bhakta comes in off the street as the result of reading Srila

Prabhupada's books and wants to approach the pure devotee, like we all wanted

to do , too, should we tell him, "No, you cannot have A.C. Bhaktivedanta as

your guru because he is "gone"? The program could be that he comes to a center

and first finds out about his varna and begins his training and then, later,

adds asrama to his program and when it comes time to be initiated, a diksa

guru does his thing and afterward the disciple goes on worshiping Prabhupada

and living his life according to varnasrama-dharma as independent from the

diksa guru as he wishes.

The diksa guru does not have controlling interest in that disciple unless the

disciple wants it. Otherwise the expectation is to offer all worship to the

uttama-adhikari guru, Srila Prabhupada.

 

My opinions all.

 

 

Thanks, Prabhu, your sincere concerns are very encouraging.

[Guest guest]

> On 23 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

>

> > So how will this all be resolved? These statements of Srila Prabhupada

> > seem to contradict the statements of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and even

> > Srila Prabhupada himself, in other places.

>

>

> "Seem" to contradict is a good choice of words, Prabhu. Obviously, there

> is no contradiction only misunderstanding on our limited brain's part.

 

Exactly.

 

> My opinions all.

 

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on these points. As the old

saying goes;

 

'One convinced against his will is of the same opinion still'.

 

I guess that works both ways.

 

Ys Sd

[Guest guest]

>

> Gosh! You mean there are some quotes out there which contradict the quote

> I posted? Well blow me down! Holy mother of God! Santa Maria Virgina!

 

I mean that there are quotes by Srila Prabhupada that

directly contradict your conclusion drowen from that

quote from Bhaktisiddhanata.

 

And there are no quotes by Srila Prabhupada that would

confirm that same conclusion.

 

 

>

> GOD dang it! Sounds to me like we need some help to sort all this out.

> Tell you what, lets just vote for someone to choose some quotes, and we

> will all just accept those, and we can then spend more time doing other

> things? Or am I being just way too sarcastic?

 

I don't think you are becoming sarcastic really. I think you

are simply throwing some "smoke bombs" at the moment. "Santa

Maria" here, "booom" there, "GOD dang it" on top... So that

nothing makes sense anymore anyaway... It's all just words

(I mean, quotes), after all, isn't it?

 

 

If Srila Prabhupada repeatedly states to his disciples that

they can have the access to both him and his books after

his departure, that he is accessible by them through

his *vani*, then that's it. Period. He gave his instructions

to his disciples. You have no right to mix in between, coming

with your interpretation of one Bhaktisiddhanta's article, to

"prove" how they (Prabhupada's disciple) got now to find

some another guru in order to have access to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I don't think any help is really needed to sort this particular

point out. The confusion is with you, due to your going to

Bhaktisiddhanta, over Prabhupada.

 

 

 

 

ys mnd