Diksa guru as personal spiritual guide

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2331129 from COM]

>

> On 19 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

>

>

> > Why do we assume that the system of a disciple not having much contact with

> the

> > diksa guru should be our standard from here to eternity?

> >

> > It seems to me that this is precisely the root of many of our problems --

> that

> > the

> > diksa guru is not able to give sufficient personal guidance to his

disciple,

> > and

> > that he does not feel great enough personal stake in the welfare and

> spiritual

> > success of that disciple.

>

> Srila Prabhupada did not feel enough "personal" stake in the welfare and

> spiritual success of his disciples? As a diksa guru he did not give such

> attention to by far the majority of his disciples. I have never felt in any

> way abandoned by Srila Prabhupada for this. I relate with him through his

> recorded books, tapes and kirtans. I feel very close to him when I worship

his

> pictures and books and offer him food every morning.

 

As we have noted before, Srila Prabhupada is in a category which is superior to

any of our current gurus. I don't think that any of them would be insulted by

such a statement.

 

You say that you never felt in any way abandoned by Srila Prabhupada, and that

you

are satisfied relating with him through his books, etc. So that is very nice.

And for a number of disciples of present-day gurus, they also feel like this

about

their relationship with their spiritual master.

 

But I also know that I have heard, even from disciples of Srila Prabhupada that

they felt frustrated at not having been able to communicate with him directly,

especially when they had some pressing question and did not trust the purity of

the person who was acting as a go-between or as a screen between them and Srila

Prabhupada. And, I see this kind of frustration or remoteness even more often

with disciples of our current gurus.

 

I think that this frustration makes them easy prey for the rtvik recruiters:

If I

cannot even contact my diksa guru personally, what is the point in my

relationship

with him? After all, so many have fallen down. If he's not going to be

available

to help me, why not go directly to Srila Prabhupada and have him for my guru.

At

least he'll never fall down. And I certainly won't get any less attention from

him.

 

That seems to be the thinking.

 

Many people crave and need personal spiritual guidance. How can our guru

system

be reformed to provide this?

 

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

 

 

> >It is a weakness of our current system that it is so

> > impersonal.

>

> The weakness in the system is trying to establish such a personal

relationship

> with unqualified gurus. They think of themselves as gurus when they are not,

> and we think of them as gurus because we don't want to see that they aren't.

> Instead we could try to see them as older brothers and sisters in God and

> develop close loving, caring relationships even if at a distance - like in

> "real" families who don't see their siblings all the time but maintain love.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2331129 from COM]

>

> On 19 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

>

>

> > Why do we assume that the system of a disciple not having much contact with

> the

> > diksa guru should be our standard from here to eternity?

> >

> > It seems to me that this is precisely the root of many of our problems --

> that

> > the

> > diksa guru is not able to give sufficient personal guidance to his

disciple,

> > and

> > that he does not feel great enough personal stake in the welfare and

> spiritual

> > success of that disciple.

>

> Srila Prabhupada did not feel enough "personal" stake in the welfare and

> spiritual success of his disciples? As a diksa guru he did not give such

> attention to by far the majority of his disciples. I have never felt in any

> way abandoned by Srila Prabhupada for this. I relate with him through his

> recorded books, tapes and kirtans. I feel very close to him when I worship

his

> pictures and books and offer him food every morning.

 

As we have noted before, Srila Prabhupada is in a category which is superior to

any of our current gurus. I don't think that any of them would be insulted by

such a statement.

 

You say that you never felt in any way abandoned by Srila Prabhupada, and that

you

are satisfied relating with him through his books, etc. So that is very nice.

And for a number of disciples of present-day gurus, they also feel like this

about

their relationship with their spiritual master.

 

But I also know that I have heard, even from disciples of Srila Prabhupada that

they felt frustrated at not having been able to communicate with him directly,

especially when they had some pressing question and did not trust the purity of

the person who was acting as a go-between or as a screen between them and Srila

Prabhupada. And, I see this kind of frustration or remoteness even more often

with disciples of our current gurus.

 

I think that this frustration makes them easy prey for the rtvik recruiters:

If I

cannot even contact my diksa guru personally, what is the point in my

relationship

with him? After all, so many have fallen down. If he's not going to be

available

to help me, why not go directly to Srila Prabhupada and have him for my guru.

At

least he'll never fall down. And I certainly won't get any less attention from

him.

 

That seems to be the thinking.

 

Many people crave and need personal spiritual guidance. How can our guru

system

be reformed to provide this?

 

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

 

 

> >It is a weakness of our current system that it is so

> > impersonal.

>

> The weakness in the system is trying to establish such a personal

relationship

> with unqualified gurus. They think of themselves as gurus when they are not,

> and we think of them as gurus because we don't want to see that they aren't.

> Instead we could try to see them as older brothers and sisters in God and

> develop close loving, caring relationships even if at a distance - like in

> "real" families who don't see their siblings all the time but maintain love.

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

 

>

> As we have noted before, Srila Prabhupada is in a category which is superior

to any of our current gurus. I don't think that any of them would be insulted

by such a statement.

>

 

Yes, he is their spiritual master. When we forget the superior position of our

devotional predecessors, we run into so many unfortunate circumstances.

 

 

>

> That seems to be the thinking.

>

> Many people crave and need personal spiritual guidance. How can our guru

system be reformed to provide this?

>

>

 

By emphasizing siksa as not being dependent on diksa? The actual guru/disciple

relationship is something dynamic, not a formality.

 

ys,

 

Sthita-dhi

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

 

>

> As we have noted before, Srila Prabhupada is in a category which is superior

to any of our current gurus. I don't think that any of them would be insulted

by such a statement.

>

 

Yes, he is their spiritual master. When we forget the superior position of our

devotional predecessors, we run into so many unfortunate circumstances.

 

 

>

> That seems to be the thinking.

>

> Many people crave and need personal spiritual guidance. How can our guru

system be reformed to provide this?

>

>

 

By emphasizing siksa as not being dependent on diksa? The actual guru/disciple

relationship is something dynamic, not a formality.

 

ys,

 

Sthita-dhi

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

> You say that you never felt in any way abandoned by Srila Prabhupada, and

that

> you

> are satisfied relating with him through his books, etc. So that is very

nice.

> And for a number of disciples of present-day gurus, they also feel like this

> about

> their relationship with their spiritual master.

 

 

Yes, like my sister who has a women as a "spiritual master" of a very large

spiritual group from an asrama near Monticello, NY. They are impersonalists

but they chant nice Vedic hymns and even Hare Krsna sometimes. I do not

disturb her from her worship because she is quite happy with the situation and

she is very favorable to Krsna. But she will not change gurus. She is not

following an uttama-adhikari pure devotee and therefore her spiritual life

will not fructify very soon.

 

We have to ask ourself if our guru is an uttama-adhikari, completely freed

from material contamination and 100% Krsna conscious. If our diksa guru is not

as such we MUST have a siksa guru who is.

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

> You say that you never felt in any way abandoned by Srila Prabhupada, and

that

> you

> are satisfied relating with him through his books, etc. So that is very

nice.

> And for a number of disciples of present-day gurus, they also feel like this

> about

> their relationship with their spiritual master.

 

 

Yes, like my sister who has a women as a "spiritual master" of a very large

spiritual group from an asrama near Monticello, NY. They are impersonalists

but they chant nice Vedic hymns and even Hare Krsna sometimes. I do not

disturb her from her worship because she is quite happy with the situation and

she is very favorable to Krsna. But she will not change gurus. She is not

following an uttama-adhikari pure devotee and therefore her spiritual life

will not fructify very soon.

 

We have to ask ourself if our guru is an uttama-adhikari, completely freed

from material contamination and 100% Krsna conscious. If our diksa guru is not

as such we MUST have a siksa guru who is.

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

 

> If I

> cannot even contact my diksa guru personally, what is the point in my

> relationship

> with him? After all, so many have fallen down. If he's not going to be

> available

> to help me, why not go directly to Srila Prabhupada and have him for my

guru.

> At

> least he'll never fall down. And I certainly won't get any less attention

from

> him.

>

> That seems to be the thinking.

>

> Many people crave and need personal spiritual guidance. How can our guru

> system

> be reformed to provide this?

 

 

 

What do you think Srila Prabhupada would have said if he was asked this

question when he was "here"? Please answer, I am very interested in your

perspective on this.

 

 

He could have had thousands of his disciples express this "craving" and "need"

because of his lack of time to spend with all of his disciples on a

"personal/direct/living" basis. Why wasn't this a problem?

Was his program faulty? He said we could have expanded to millions when he was

"here". What then of all the craving?

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

 

> If I

> cannot even contact my diksa guru personally, what is the point in my

> relationship

> with him? After all, so many have fallen down. If he's not going to be

> available

> to help me, why not go directly to Srila Prabhupada and have him for my

guru.

> At

> least he'll never fall down. And I certainly won't get any less attention

from

> him.

>

> That seems to be the thinking.

>

> Many people crave and need personal spiritual guidance. How can our guru

> system

> be reformed to provide this?

 

 

 

What do you think Srila Prabhupada would have said if he was asked this

question when he was "here"? Please answer, I am very interested in your

perspective on this.

 

 

He could have had thousands of his disciples express this "craving" and "need"

because of his lack of time to spend with all of his disciples on a

"personal/direct/living" basis. Why wasn't this a problem?

Was his program faulty? He said we could have expanded to millions when he was

"here". What then of all the craving?

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > Many people crave and need personal spiritual guidance. How can our guru

> system be reformed to provide this?

 

 

 

> By emphasizing siksa as not being dependent on diksa? The actual

guru/disciple

> relationship is something dynamic, not a formality.

 

 

This would be my answer, also. Srila Prabhupada is available to everyone

equally as a perfect, uttama-adhikari siksa guru. If siksa were empasized to

the point of "almost" eliminating diksa (if there are problems with

instituting the formality like we see rampant in ISKCON) there would be little

to squabble about on the guru subject. Everyone would be godbrother and

godsister like ISKCON used to be. What's so bad about that?

[Guest guest]

On 19 May 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

> > Many people crave and need personal spiritual guidance. How can our guru

> system be reformed to provide this?

 

 

 

> By emphasizing siksa as not being dependent on diksa? The actual

guru/disciple

> relationship is something dynamic, not a formality.

 

 

This would be my answer, also. Srila Prabhupada is available to everyone

equally as a perfect, uttama-adhikari siksa guru. If siksa were empasized to

the point of "almost" eliminating diksa (if there are problems with

instituting the formality like we see rampant in ISKCON) there would be little

to squabble about on the guru subject. Everyone would be godbrother and

godsister like ISKCON used to be. What's so bad about that?

[Guest guest]

> Everyone would be godbrother and

> godsister like ISKCON used to be. What's so bad about that?

We would be orphans.

y.s. Gm. d.d.

[Guest guest]

> Everyone would be godbrother and

> godsister like ISKCON used to be. What's so bad about that?

We would be orphans.

y.s. Gm. d.d.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2331754 from COM]

>

>

> We have to ask ourself if our guru is an uttama-adhikari, completely freed

> from material contamination and 100% Krsna conscious. If our diksa guru is

not

> as such we MUST have a siksa guru who is.

 

On this point we are 100% in agreement. Therefore the importance for most if

not

all of ISKCON's gurus in emphasizing the unique position of Srila Prabhupada,

and

the necessity for all to take shelter of him.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2331754 from COM]

>

>

> We have to ask ourself if our guru is an uttama-adhikari, completely freed

> from material contamination and 100% Krsna conscious. If our diksa guru is

not

> as such we MUST have a siksa guru who is.

 

On this point we are 100% in agreement. Therefore the importance for most if

not

all of ISKCON's gurus in emphasizing the unique position of Srila Prabhupada,

and

the necessity for all to take shelter of him.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

> But I also know that I have heard, even from disciples of Srila Prabhupada

> that they felt frustrated at not having been able to communicate with him

> directly, especially when they had some pressing question and did not

> trust the purity of the person who was acting as a go-between or as a

> screen between them and Srila Prabhupada. And, I see this kind of

> frustration or remoteness even more often with disciples of our current

> gurus.

 

Srila Prabhupada is an eternaly liberated Nitya Siddha. There was an

emergency and he needed to spread Krsna Consciousness everywhere, as per the

order of his guru. I guess he realised that devotees who he made disciples

would only become as Krsna Conscious as they desired to be. He could not

force them to be Krsna conscious. Some devotees although they wanted to meet

Srila Prabhupada, maybe they should not have bought the story told them by

other senior devotees, when they requested his darshan. There are cases such

as Gour Govinda Swami or Bhakti Caru Swami, who joined later, and who got

his darshan by being extremely insistent, and where Prabhupada offered them

sanyas in a very short period.

 

Many devotees were immature, and maybe were so far away from being able to

surrender to his order, that it would not have been worth ordering them in

the first place, otherwise, by disobeying the order, they would become

implicated in serious offence against their guru. Many times Prabhupada

would order disciples to do something, and they would try to argue their way

out of it, rather than actualy surrender. How many fell down while he was

there, or after he left, thus proving their lack of sincerity at the time.

 

As it was in later years Prabhupada became disgusted withe the amount of

devotees falling down, and wanted the devotees to do that milk boiling

excercise which never happened.

 

We will become Krsna Conscious if that is the burning desire of our heart.

Conversly we will not become Krsna Conscious, even if we are initiated by

such a personage as Srila Prabhupada, if we have do not have such a burning

desire, not anytime soon anyway.

 

I appreciate Hare Krsna dasis idea that Srila Prabhupada expected things

would gradualy change in ISKCON. That is obvious really by the fact that he

wanted to establish varnasrama. Regarding Srila Prabhupadas particular

actions. In Sajjana Toshani magazine Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has defined

an apa-sampradaya as a group of devotees who take an extraordinary act of an

empowered acarya and make that act the common standard. In other words Srila

Prabhupada had an emergency on his hands to establish his guru maharaj's

order, and implemented certain things in that mood.

 

Think about it. Why establish a varnasrama community where you have

independant Brahmins, whose position it is to maintain dharma, ensure

siddhanta is known and generaly be available as impartial guides, and

advisors, if it is all available in Srila Prabhupadas books exclusively. I

just dont buy the argument that we dont need help. That Srila Prabhupada has

given us all the help already, and that we dont need pure unmotivated people

to help us understand it.

 

Sd

[Guest guest]

> But I also know that I have heard, even from disciples of Srila Prabhupada

> that they felt frustrated at not having been able to communicate with him

> directly, especially when they had some pressing question and did not

> trust the purity of the person who was acting as a go-between or as a

> screen between them and Srila Prabhupada. And, I see this kind of

> frustration or remoteness even more often with disciples of our current

> gurus.

 

Srila Prabhupada is an eternaly liberated Nitya Siddha. There was an

emergency and he needed to spread Krsna Consciousness everywhere, as per the

order of his guru. I guess he realised that devotees who he made disciples

would only become as Krsna Conscious as they desired to be. He could not

force them to be Krsna conscious. Some devotees although they wanted to meet

Srila Prabhupada, maybe they should not have bought the story told them by

other senior devotees, when they requested his darshan. There are cases such

as Gour Govinda Swami or Bhakti Caru Swami, who joined later, and who got

his darshan by being extremely insistent, and where Prabhupada offered them

sanyas in a very short period.

 

Many devotees were immature, and maybe were so far away from being able to

surrender to his order, that it would not have been worth ordering them in

the first place, otherwise, by disobeying the order, they would become

implicated in serious offence against their guru. Many times Prabhupada

would order disciples to do something, and they would try to argue their way

out of it, rather than actualy surrender. How many fell down while he was

there, or after he left, thus proving their lack of sincerity at the time.

 

As it was in later years Prabhupada became disgusted withe the amount of

devotees falling down, and wanted the devotees to do that milk boiling

excercise which never happened.

 

We will become Krsna Conscious if that is the burning desire of our heart.

Conversly we will not become Krsna Conscious, even if we are initiated by

such a personage as Srila Prabhupada, if we have do not have such a burning

desire, not anytime soon anyway.

 

I appreciate Hare Krsna dasis idea that Srila Prabhupada expected things

would gradualy change in ISKCON. That is obvious really by the fact that he

wanted to establish varnasrama. Regarding Srila Prabhupadas particular

actions. In Sajjana Toshani magazine Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has defined

an apa-sampradaya as a group of devotees who take an extraordinary act of an

empowered acarya and make that act the common standard. In other words Srila

Prabhupada had an emergency on his hands to establish his guru maharaj's

order, and implemented certain things in that mood.

 

Think about it. Why establish a varnasrama community where you have

independant Brahmins, whose position it is to maintain dharma, ensure

siddhanta is known and generaly be available as impartial guides, and

advisors, if it is all available in Srila Prabhupadas books exclusively. I

just dont buy the argument that we dont need help. That Srila Prabhupada has

given us all the help already, and that we dont need pure unmotivated people

to help us understand it.

 

Sd

[Guest guest]

> > And for a number of disciples of present-day gurus, they also feel like

> > this about their relationship with their spiritual master.

>

>

> Yes, like my sister who has a women as a "spiritual master" of a very

> large spiritual group from an asrama near Monticello, NY. They are

> impersonalists but they chant nice Vedic hymns and even Hare Krsna

> sometimes. I do not disturb her from her worship because she is quite

> happy with the situation and she is very favorable to Krsna. But she will

> not change gurus. She is not following an uttama-adhikari pure devotee and

> therefore her spiritual life will not fructify very soon.

>

 

"Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest

of the world on the other!"

 

 

 

> We have to ask ourself if our guru is an uttama-adhikari, completely freed

> from material contamination and 100% Krsna conscious. If our diksa guru is

> not as such we MUST have a siksa guru who is.

 

As you said, Srila Prabhupada is Dead and Gone. Or?

 

Anyway, to come up to the level where some of our ISCKON gurus

are at, we MUST NOT have an uttama-adhikari siksa guru for. Why not

first do that?

 

 

There was a story.

 

A flood came. The water was 0.5m high. The evacuation of the villagers

begun. They came to church also, with a truck. The priest said "In

God I trust, God will save me." They went away, without the priest.

The water raised, 2m high. The priest was now on the upper floor of

his house. They came with the boat. "God will save me", said the

priest. They went away. The water raised up to the roof. The priest

sitting on the roof, a chopper hovering over his head: "Come

now, this your last chance!". "No, God will save me". The water

raised. Over the roof.

 

Later on, the priest in the "other World", insisting to meet

God. He was granted. He came before God: "I was so trustful to

you, I believed in you, and you did nothing to save me, you

let me down. Why?"

"What are you talking about?", answered God. "First I sent a truck

to you, then a boat, and then a helicopter. But you didn't care at

all for any of these."

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

> > And for a number of disciples of present-day gurus, they also feel like

> > this about their relationship with their spiritual master.

>

>

> Yes, like my sister who has a women as a "spiritual master" of a very

> large spiritual group from an asrama near Monticello, NY. They are

> impersonalists but they chant nice Vedic hymns and even Hare Krsna

> sometimes. I do not disturb her from her worship because she is quite

> happy with the situation and she is very favorable to Krsna. But she will

> not change gurus. She is not following an uttama-adhikari pure devotee and

> therefore her spiritual life will not fructify very soon.

>

 

"Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest

of the world on the other!"

 

 

 

> We have to ask ourself if our guru is an uttama-adhikari, completely freed

> from material contamination and 100% Krsna conscious. If our diksa guru is

> not as such we MUST have a siksa guru who is.

 

As you said, Srila Prabhupada is Dead and Gone. Or?

 

Anyway, to come up to the level where some of our ISCKON gurus

are at, we MUST NOT have an uttama-adhikari siksa guru for. Why not

first do that?

 

 

There was a story.

 

A flood came. The water was 0.5m high. The evacuation of the villagers

begun. They came to church also, with a truck. The priest said "In

God I trust, God will save me." They went away, without the priest.

The water raised, 2m high. The priest was now on the upper floor of

his house. They came with the boat. "God will save me", said the

priest. They went away. The water raised up to the roof. The priest

sitting on the roof, a chopper hovering over his head: "Come

now, this your last chance!". "No, God will save me". The water

raised. Over the roof.

 

Later on, the priest in the "other World", insisting to meet

God. He was granted. He came before God: "I was so trustful to

you, I believed in you, and you did nothing to save me, you

let me down. Why?"

"What are you talking about?", answered God. "First I sent a truck

to you, then a boat, and then a helicopter. But you didn't care at

all for any of these."

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

"COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2333351 from COM]

>

> Some devotees although they wanted to meet

> Srila Prabhupada, maybe they should not have bought the story told them by

> other senior devotees, when they requested his darshan. There are cases such

> as Gour Govinda Swami or Bhakti Caru Swami, who joined later, and who got

> his darshan by being extremely insistent, and where Prabhupada offered them

> sanyas in a very short period.

 

The examples you give here were both men, and both in Indian bodies. Are there

any examples of women in western bodies who were initially deterred in their

attempts to associate extensively with Srila Prabhupada, but who eventually

"got

his darshan by being extremely insistent"?

 

I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible that

in

some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the weak-heartedness and

insinserity of the disciple, but due to the unavoidable shortcomings of the

emergency system which had to be put in place?

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

"COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2333351 from COM]

>

> Some devotees although they wanted to meet

> Srila Prabhupada, maybe they should not have bought the story told them by

> other senior devotees, when they requested his darshan. There are cases such

> as Gour Govinda Swami or Bhakti Caru Swami, who joined later, and who got

> his darshan by being extremely insistent, and where Prabhupada offered them

> sanyas in a very short period.

 

The examples you give here were both men, and both in Indian bodies. Are there

any examples of women in western bodies who were initially deterred in their

attempts to associate extensively with Srila Prabhupada, but who eventually

"got

his darshan by being extremely insistent"?

 

I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible that

in

some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the weak-heartedness and

insinserity of the disciple, but due to the unavoidable shortcomings of the

emergency system which had to be put in place?

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

On 20 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

 

> Regarding Srila Prabhupadas particular

> actions. In Sajjana Toshani magazine Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has defined

> an apa-sampradaya as a group of devotees who take an extraordinary act of an

> empowered acarya and make that act the common standard. In other words Srila

> Prabhupada had an emergency on his hands to establish his guru maharaj's

> order, and implemented certain things in that mood.

 

 

Is this the reason for ISKCON's leaders concentrating only on those

"emergency" things that Srila Prabhupada emphasized like book publication and

distribution while neglecting the much broader Vedic institution of Daiva

Varnasrama-dharma? Is ISKCON becoming an apa-sampradaya as a result of

following this course? It sounds logical.

 

 

> Think about it. Why establish a varnasrama community where you have

> independant Brahmins, whose position it is to maintain dharma, ensure

> siddhanta is known and generaly be available as impartial guides, and

> advisors, if it is all available in Srila Prabhupadas books exclusively.

 

 

Oh, I'm sorry I should have read further. You're saying that to exclusively

rely upon Srila Prabhupada's books as instruction is apa-sampradayic? Because

we want to make his books the common standard? His books, sastra in English

and other languages is only an "emergency" to become non-essential at some

date?

 

I would certainly disagree with this, IF that is what you are saying. I'm

sorry if a misunderstood it.

 

 

I

> just dont buy the argument that we dont need help. That Srila Prabhupada has

> given us all the help already, and that we dont need pure unmotivated people

> to help us understand it.

 

 

I think there are two things you are talking about here: 1. Pure

transcendental instructions and, 2. varnasrama-dharma. Srila Prabhupada said

there was only one thing left "unfinished" and it was the later of these.

 

He did give us quite a bit of good instruction for starting varnasrama-dharma

but there is plenty left for us to do on our own. This does not require high,

transcendental, pure unmotivated people to implement it. It requires simple

practical common sense and hard work. First, of course, the leaders, if they

are going to be involved in this effort, have to admit that they NEED to

implement VAD into the society and recognize its existence and value.

Pretentions alone have stopped that effort. They have failed to do this for

more than 25 years. Isn't it pretty obvious what their intentions have been?

They have concocted other social management paradigms loosely based upon their

mish-mash of Vedic culture and came up with....present day ISKCON! Not a

success story.

 

Pure, unmotivated people are always welcome. They are not a ready commodity,

obviously. Perhaps that's why Srila Prabhupada so strongly advised his

disciples to implement varnasrama-dharma:

 

 

"Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a pure

devotee of the Lord, or a Vaisnava." SB 1.2.2

 

Room Conversation Mayapur, February 14, 1977

"Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that

here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty,

ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he

performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he

should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of

sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why

artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and

fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in

his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that

is possible. That is possible."

 

With all due respect, current ISKCON mentality is about as far from the above

scenario as anyone could imagine. How are we going to develop "pure,

unmotivated" people? Just sit back and "pray" for them to come? God helps

those who help themselves.

[Guest guest]

On 20 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

 

> Regarding Srila Prabhupadas particular

> actions. In Sajjana Toshani magazine Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has defined

> an apa-sampradaya as a group of devotees who take an extraordinary act of an

> empowered acarya and make that act the common standard. In other words Srila

> Prabhupada had an emergency on his hands to establish his guru maharaj's

> order, and implemented certain things in that mood.

 

 

Is this the reason for ISKCON's leaders concentrating only on those

"emergency" things that Srila Prabhupada emphasized like book publication and

distribution while neglecting the much broader Vedic institution of Daiva

Varnasrama-dharma? Is ISKCON becoming an apa-sampradaya as a result of

following this course? It sounds logical.

 

 

> Think about it. Why establish a varnasrama community where you have

> independant Brahmins, whose position it is to maintain dharma, ensure

> siddhanta is known and generaly be available as impartial guides, and

> advisors, if it is all available in Srila Prabhupadas books exclusively.

 

 

Oh, I'm sorry I should have read further. You're saying that to exclusively

rely upon Srila Prabhupada's books as instruction is apa-sampradayic? Because

we want to make his books the common standard? His books, sastra in English

and other languages is only an "emergency" to become non-essential at some

date?

 

I would certainly disagree with this, IF that is what you are saying. I'm

sorry if a misunderstood it.

 

 

I

> just dont buy the argument that we dont need help. That Srila Prabhupada has

> given us all the help already, and that we dont need pure unmotivated people

> to help us understand it.

 

 

I think there are two things you are talking about here: 1. Pure

transcendental instructions and, 2. varnasrama-dharma. Srila Prabhupada said

there was only one thing left "unfinished" and it was the later of these.

 

He did give us quite a bit of good instruction for starting varnasrama-dharma

but there is plenty left for us to do on our own. This does not require high,

transcendental, pure unmotivated people to implement it. It requires simple

practical common sense and hard work. First, of course, the leaders, if they

are going to be involved in this effort, have to admit that they NEED to

implement VAD into the society and recognize its existence and value.

Pretentions alone have stopped that effort. They have failed to do this for

more than 25 years. Isn't it pretty obvious what their intentions have been?

They have concocted other social management paradigms loosely based upon their

mish-mash of Vedic culture and came up with....present day ISKCON! Not a

success story.

 

Pure, unmotivated people are always welcome. They are not a ready commodity,

obviously. Perhaps that's why Srila Prabhupada so strongly advised his

disciples to implement varnasrama-dharma:

 

 

"Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a pure

devotee of the Lord, or a Vaisnava." SB 1.2.2

 

Room Conversation Mayapur, February 14, 1977

"Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that

here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty,

ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he

performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he

should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of

sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why

artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and

fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in

his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that

is possible. That is possible."

 

With all due respect, current ISKCON mentality is about as far from the above

scenario as anyone could imagine. How are we going to develop "pure,

unmotivated" people? Just sit back and "pray" for them to come? God helps

those who help themselves.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2333932 from COM]

>

> On 20 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

>

> > I feel that the whole thing can only work if the

> > disciple and the guru actualy KNOW each other,

>

> Did Srila Prabhupada "actually know" each of his disciples? Surely

> transcendentally, but I do not think that is what you are saying. My question

> would be, which guru should actually know his disciple? A varna guru, which

is

> what we completely lack in ISKCON and need terribly, should know his

disciple,

> I agree. Personal training. Many varna gurus. Grihastas mostly. The siksa

> guru, while it would be nice, does not have to bodily know each disciple.

> Srila Prabhupada is the example. The Goswamis, Mahajanas are also our siksa

> gurus - we do not know them personally.

 

Well.... I think we need to slow down the discussion at this point and note

that

"varna guru" is a brand new term. This is not a term established by Srila

Prabhupada.

 

The terms that he used are: siksa guru and diksa guru

 

You have already established, and everyone seems to agree, that the siksa guru

does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her

instruction.

 

However, everyone who is not a rtvik -- including the members of the GBC -- is

convinced that the diksa guru must be physically present on earth when the

disciple is initiated. Therefore, since there is no such term as "varna guru"

it

seems to me that the diksa guru should be the one who gives the disciple his

varna

guidance -- since he is physically present at the beginning of the disciples

devotional career.

 

Devotional career means serving Krsna by one's work. The diksa guru should be

expected to tell his or her disciple which kind of work is most suitable for

that

person to serve Krsna with. That implies more diksa gurus, not fewer.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2333932 from COM]

>

> On 20 May 1999, Samba das wrote:

>

> > I feel that the whole thing can only work if the

> > disciple and the guru actualy KNOW each other,

>

> Did Srila Prabhupada "actually know" each of his disciples? Surely

> transcendentally, but I do not think that is what you are saying. My question

> would be, which guru should actually know his disciple? A varna guru, which

is

> what we completely lack in ISKCON and need terribly, should know his

disciple,

> I agree. Personal training. Many varna gurus. Grihastas mostly. The siksa

> guru, while it would be nice, does not have to bodily know each disciple.

> Srila Prabhupada is the example. The Goswamis, Mahajanas are also our siksa

> gurus - we do not know them personally.

 

Well.... I think we need to slow down the discussion at this point and note

that

"varna guru" is a brand new term. This is not a term established by Srila

Prabhupada.

 

The terms that he used are: siksa guru and diksa guru

 

You have already established, and everyone seems to agree, that the siksa guru

does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her

instruction.

 

However, everyone who is not a rtvik -- including the members of the GBC -- is

convinced that the diksa guru must be physically present on earth when the

disciple is initiated. Therefore, since there is no such term as "varna guru"

it

seems to me that the diksa guru should be the one who gives the disciple his

varna

guidance -- since he is physically present at the beginning of the disciples

devotional career.

 

Devotional career means serving Krsna by one's work. The diksa guru should be

expected to tell his or her disciple which kind of work is most suitable for

that

person to serve Krsna with. That implies more diksa gurus, not fewer.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

On 20 May 1999, Gunamani dd wrote:

 

> > Everyone would be godbrother and

> > godsister like ISKCON used to be. What's so bad about that?

 

 

> We would be orphans.

> y.s. Gm. d.d.

 

 

I have not felt like an orphan since Srila Prabhupada "left" Mataji. Nor have

my friends/godbrothers/sisters. We still feel Srila Prabhupada is our

spiritual father just as much as when he was here. Sorry you feel that way.

 

yfs,

Jd