Diksa guru as personal spiritual guide

May 21, 1999

On 20 May 1999, Gunamani dd wrote:

> > Everyone would be godbrother and

> > godsister like ISKCON used to be. What's so bad about that?

> We would be orphans.

> y.s. Gm. d.d.

I have not felt like an orphan since Srila Prabhupada "left" Mataji. Nor have

my friends/godbrothers/sisters. We still feel Srila Prabhupada is our

spiritual father just as much as when he was here. Sorry you feel that way.

yfs,

Jd

May 21, 1999

On 20 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

>

> "Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest

> of the world on the other!"

I guess I can get bothered by your endless sarcasm too. Of what constructive

use is it? Please make your point if you have one so that someone else might

be able to respond intelligently, or at least try.

May 21, 1999

On 20 May 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

>

> "Uttama-adhikari pure devotees on this side of the line, the rest

> of the world on the other!"

I guess I can get bothered by your endless sarcasm too. Of what constructive

use is it? Please make your point if you have one so that someone else might

be able to respond intelligently, or at least try.

May 21, 1999

On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible

that

> in

> some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the weak-heartedness and

> insinserity of the disciple, but due to the unavoidable shortcomings of the

> emergency system which had to be put in place?

I think it was more likely that most of Srila Prabhupada's disciples listened

to his instructions in this regard and were quite satisfied. He had that

effect on many of us:

"The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to

serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering

his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's

instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his

words of direction should be the pride of the disciple..." CC Adi 1.35

May 21, 1999

On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible

that

> in

> some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the weak-heartedness and

> insinserity of the disciple, but due to the unavoidable shortcomings of the

> emergency system which had to be put in place?

I think it was more likely that most of Srila Prabhupada's disciples listened

to his instructions in this regard and were quite satisfied. He had that

effect on many of us:

"The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to

serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering

his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's

instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his

words of direction should be the pride of the disciple..." CC Adi 1.35

May 21, 1999

On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> > I agree. Personal training. Many varna gurus. Grihastas mostly. The siksa

> > guru, while it would be nice, does not have to bodily know each disciple.

> > Srila Prabhupada is the example. The Goswamis, Mahajanas are also our

siksa

> > gurus - we do not know them personally.

> Well.... I think we need to slow down the discussion at this point and note

> that

> "varna guru" is a brand new term. This is not a term established by Srila

> Prabhupada.

Please. I am not trying to write scripture here. It is purely Janesvara dasa's

concoction. OK?

> The terms that he used are: siksa guru and diksa guru

And, patha-pradarsaka-guru, vartma-pradarsaka-guru, caitya guru. Let's not be

so sure of ourselves.

> You have already established, and everyone seems to agree, that the siksa

guru

> does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her

> instruction.

> However, everyone who is not a rtvik -- including the members of the GBC --

is

> convinced that the diksa guru must be physically present on earth when the

> disciple is initiated.

I am not a ritvik (I am a ksatriya) and I do not believe that the diksa guru

must be "physically present on EARTH" to initiate a disciple.

"Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by

which he becomes freed from all material contamination."

CC Mad 4.111

As you stated above, "everyone seems to agree, that the siksa guru

does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her

instruction".

If diksa actually means what Srila Prabhupada stated above why does there have

to be "physical" presence for the same kind of instruction given in siksa

which does not require physical presence?

And, "The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance

to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by

remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual

master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence,

therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple..." CC

Adi 1.35

I believe that is how Srila Prabhupada's disciples were given diksa in most

cases.

> Therefore, since there is no such term as "varna guru"

> it

> seems to me that the diksa guru should be the one who gives the disciple his

> varna

> guidance -- since he is physically present at the beginning of the disciples

> devotional career.

This is a different subject than "ritvik/diksa" but, naturally, I disagree.

Pancharatna Prabhu also has a nice perspective on this which he asked me to

share with the conference.

Pancharatna Prabhu wrote:

> Now to your other comments. I am skipping ahead to this point:

>

> > Janesvara wrote:

> > I have no problem with my Godbrothers becoming gurus. Honest! I have

> > complete confidence that Srila Prabhupada's books, service and parampara

> > program are fully capable of developing pure devotees and gurus. When -

> > is the question.

>

> And what kind? My own belief is that, just like their are so many

> varieties within the definistions of "catur varna", so there are so many

> varieties of gurus. The problems come, as in varnashram, when someone who

> is qualified for one position assumes a different position.

This is also my feeling. We need varna gurus to step up to Srila Prabhupada's

instructions given in his morning walks conversations in Vrindavana '74. If we

could only give it a try!

>

> It will take time, but I am confident that if we sincerely try to

> implement the principles of varnashram, through extensive training and

> step by step development we will find slutions to our present internal

> conflicts as well as optimum opportunities for all aspects of devotional

> service, including acceptance of a guru and taking intitiation.

Yes putting the horse before the cart, finally!

>

> I must apologize for dropping out of the varnashram conference. I just

> couldn't keep up with it.

>

> I am hoping to step back in but I would like to limit my involvement to a

> smaller group, so that the volume of email is more manageable.

>

> Perhaps you could share the relevent portions of this text with others on

> the varnashram conference who would be interested.

>

> Your servant,

> Pancaratna das

> Devotional career means serving Krsna by one's work. The diksa guru should

be

> expected to tell his or her disciple which kind of work is most suitable for

> that

> person to serve Krsna with.

This sounds more commnonly like a siksa guru to me. Arjuna's "varna", if you

will allow, guru was Dronacarya. He was not Arjuna's diksa or siksa guru in

spiritual science.

May 21, 1999

On 20 May 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> > I agree. Personal training. Many varna gurus. Grihastas mostly. The siksa

> > guru, while it would be nice, does not have to bodily know each disciple.

> > Srila Prabhupada is the example. The Goswamis, Mahajanas are also our

siksa

> > gurus - we do not know them personally.

> Well.... I think we need to slow down the discussion at this point and note

> that

> "varna guru" is a brand new term. This is not a term established by Srila

> Prabhupada.

Please. I am not trying to write scripture here. It is purely Janesvara dasa's

concoction. OK?

> The terms that he used are: siksa guru and diksa guru

And, patha-pradarsaka-guru, vartma-pradarsaka-guru, caitya guru. Let's not be

so sure of ourselves.

> You have already established, and everyone seems to agree, that the siksa

guru

> does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her

> instruction.

> However, everyone who is not a rtvik -- including the members of the GBC --

is

> convinced that the diksa guru must be physically present on earth when the

> disciple is initiated.

I am not a ritvik (I am a ksatriya) and I do not believe that the diksa guru

must be "physically present on EARTH" to initiate a disciple.

"Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by

which he becomes freed from all material contamination."

CC Mad 4.111

As you stated above, "everyone seems to agree, that the siksa guru

does not have to be physically present when the disciple takes his or her

instruction".

If diksa actually means what Srila Prabhupada stated above why does there have

to be "physical" presence for the same kind of instruction given in siksa

which does not require physical presence?

And, "The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance

to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by

remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual

master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence,

therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple..." CC

Adi 1.35

I believe that is how Srila Prabhupada's disciples were given diksa in most

cases.

> Therefore, since there is no such term as "varna guru"

> it

> seems to me that the diksa guru should be the one who gives the disciple his

> varna

> guidance -- since he is physically present at the beginning of the disciples

> devotional career.

This is a different subject than "ritvik/diksa" but, naturally, I disagree.

Pancharatna Prabhu also has a nice perspective on this which he asked me to

share with the conference.

Pancharatna Prabhu wrote:

> Now to your other comments. I am skipping ahead to this point:

>

> > Janesvara wrote:

> > I have no problem with my Godbrothers becoming gurus. Honest! I have

> > complete confidence that Srila Prabhupada's books, service and parampara

> > program are fully capable of developing pure devotees and gurus. When -

> > is the question.

>

> And what kind? My own belief is that, just like their are so many

> varieties within the definistions of "catur varna", so there are so many

> varieties of gurus. The problems come, as in varnashram, when someone who

> is qualified for one position assumes a different position.

This is also my feeling. We need varna gurus to step up to Srila Prabhupada's

instructions given in his morning walks conversations in Vrindavana '74. If we

could only give it a try!

>

> It will take time, but I am confident that if we sincerely try to

> implement the principles of varnashram, through extensive training and

> step by step development we will find slutions to our present internal

> conflicts as well as optimum opportunities for all aspects of devotional

> service, including acceptance of a guru and taking intitiation.

Yes putting the horse before the cart, finally!

>

> I must apologize for dropping out of the varnashram conference. I just

> couldn't keep up with it.

>

> I am hoping to step back in but I would like to limit my involvement to a

> smaller group, so that the volume of email is more manageable.

>

> Perhaps you could share the relevent portions of this text with others on

> the varnashram conference who would be interested.

>

> Your servant,

> Pancaratna das

> Devotional career means serving Krsna by one's work. The diksa guru should

be

> expected to tell his or her disciple which kind of work is most suitable for

> that

> person to serve Krsna with.

This sounds more commnonly like a siksa guru to me. Arjuna's "varna", if you

will allow, guru was Dronacarya. He was not Arjuna's diksa or siksa guru in

spiritual science.

May 21, 1999

> I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible

> that in some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the

> weak-heartedness and insinserity of the disciple, but due to the

> unavoidable shortcomings of the emergency system which had to be put in

> place?

Well one could surmise that that might have been the case. But surely if a

person really desired with all their heart, and were desperate to get pure

instruction from a pure devotee, and follow it to the end, the Lord would

have facilitated them at that time?

How many devotees, got into serious maya after Srila Prabhupada left? If

they did, were they not really ready to actualy follow the order of Srila

Prabhupada? But that does not disqualify them from spiritual life. If they

actualy got an order it can still be carried out. If not when they finaly

realise that this procrastinating in the material world, has to end, and

they actualy get serious to do whatever it takes to get out, ie surrendering

to a pure devotee. Krsna WILL send a pure devotee. He will do that for

anyone who actualy cries to him like a baby to save them.

So call it an emergency or whatever. Srila Prabhupada knew who was serious

and who was not. The Lord dictated to him personaly. As you have pointed

out, the guru is supposed to know the psyco physical nature of the disciple,

because he knows the supersoul in everyone. But he also knows that all is

not lost. People who he granted initiation got his great mercy, it was up to

them to excell in that mercy. If they did not, then at least they started

their progress, and the Lord will certainly fulfil their desires.

YS Sd

May 21, 1999

> I am wary of analyses which tend to blame the victim. Isn't it possible

> that in some cases, the difficulty was not due simply to the

> weak-heartedness and insinserity of the disciple, but due to the

> unavoidable shortcomings of the emergency system which had to be put in

> place?

Well one could surmise that that might have been the case. But surely if a

person really desired with all their heart, and were desperate to get pure

instruction from a pure devotee, and follow it to the end, the Lord would

have facilitated them at that time?

How many devotees, got into serious maya after Srila Prabhupada left? If

they did, were they not really ready to actualy follow the order of Srila

Prabhupada? But that does not disqualify them from spiritual life. If they

actualy got an order it can still be carried out. If not when they finaly

realise that this procrastinating in the material world, has to end, and

they actualy get serious to do whatever it takes to get out, ie surrendering

to a pure devotee. Krsna WILL send a pure devotee. He will do that for

anyone who actualy cries to him like a baby to save them.

So call it an emergency or whatever. Srila Prabhupada knew who was serious

and who was not. The Lord dictated to him personaly. As you have pointed

out, the guru is supposed to know the psyco physical nature of the disciple,

because he knows the supersoul in everyone. But he also knows that all is

not lost. People who he granted initiation got his great mercy, it was up to

them to excell in that mercy. If they did not, then at least they started

their progress, and the Lord will certainly fulfil their desires.

YS Sd

May 21, 1999

> Is this the reason for ISKCON's leaders concentrating only on those

> "emergency" things that Srila Prabhupada emphasized like book publication

> and distribution while neglecting the much broader Vedic institution of

> Daiva Varnasrama-dharma? Is ISKCON becoming an apa-sampradaya as a result

> of following this course? It sounds logical.

I wouldnt have thought that those particular aspects would make ISKCON

apasampradayic as such, but certainly for disciples to not follow the order

of their guru is an offence, but then there is still time. I would have

thought though that continuing a ritvik system might be.

>

> > Think about it. Why establish a varnasrama community where you have

> > independant Brahmins, whose position it is to maintain dharma, ensure

> > siddhanta is known and generaly be available as impartial guides, and

> > advisors, if it is all available in Srila Prabhupadas books exclusively.

>

> Oh, I'm sorry I should have read further. You're saying that to

> exclusively rely upon Srila Prabhupada's books as instruction is

> apa-sampradayic? Because we want to make his books the common standard?

> His books, sastra in English and other languages is only an "emergency" to

> become non-essential at some date?

>

> I would certainly disagree with this, IF that is what you are saying. I'm

> sorry if a misunderstood it.

Bo I am not saying that at all. I was refering to other arguments which

appear to favour empiric study of his books, over seeking out, praying for,

and surrendering to impartial pure devotees.

> I

> > just dont buy the argument that we dont need help. That Srila Prabhupada

> > has given us all the help already, and that we dont need pure

> > unmotivated people to help us understand it.

>

> I think there are two things you are talking about here: 1. Pure

> transcendental instructions and, 2. varnasrama-dharma. Srila Prabhupada

> said there was only one thing left "unfinished" and it was the later of

> these.

Yes I am talking about those two things. Of course to get technical, Srila

Prabhupada didnt actualy finish the Srimad Bhagavatam. But yes he did

basicaly finish enough for us to use for the next ten thousand years. Now

all we have to do, instead of speculating, or arguing about his texts, we

just need to secure another one of those pure devotees, to clear up any

misunderstandings we may have.

> He did give us quite a bit of good instruction for starting

> varnasrama-dharma but there is plenty left for us to do on our own. This

> does not require high, transcendental, pure unmotivated people to

> implement it. It requires simple practical common sense and hard work.

I agree completely. The point I am trying to make is that when one has

reached the mode of goodness, through following the rules and regulations

etc of varnasrama dharma, and once he is ready to dive deeply into the

*mysteries* of spiritual life, THEN he will need help from a fully pure

transcendentalist. After all our Philosophy is based on personalism, and it

would make sense to me to have a living personal guide, to take our hands,

point out the weeds that we thought were devotional creeper, and guide us

through that jungle of deceptive weeds, back home.

> First, of course, the leaders, if they are going to be involved in this

> effort, have to admit that they NEED to implement VAD into the society and

> recognize its existence and value. Pretentions alone have stopped that

> effort. They have failed to do this for more than 25 years. Isn't it

> pretty obvious what their intentions have been? They have concocted other

> social management paradigms loosely based upon their mish-mash of Vedic

> culture and came up with....present day ISKCON! Not a success story.

Definatetly agreed.

>

> Pure, unmotivated people are always welcome. They are not a ready

> commodity, obviously. Perhaps that's why Srila Prabhupada so strongly

> advised his disciples to implement varnasrama-dharma:

Could well be. We need to come to the mode of goodness, before we can really

begin spiritual life.

>

> "Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a

> pure devotee of the Lord, or a Vaisnava." SB 1.2.2

>

> Room Conversation Mayapur, February 14, 1977

> "Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that

> here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty,

> ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he

> performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why

> artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to

> sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is

> not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he

> should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is

> the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's

> good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible."

>

> With all due respect, current ISKCON mentality is about as far from the

> above scenario as anyone could imagine. How are we going to develop "pure,

> unmotivated" people? Just sit back and "pray" for them to come? God helps

> those who help themselves.

I agree, the field is full of weeds right now, and needs serious

cultivation. For the first time in ages we are in complete agreement prabhu.

You are so right. Praying is not something one can do casualy. It requires

the earnestness that springs from dissatisfaction, where one feels that all

is hopeless. Both are required, practical varnasrama development, and the

praying for mercy. if both are there commitment is shown, and the Lord will

surely reciprocate.

YS Sd

May 21, 1999