Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2284927 from COM]

>

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

>

> > It is the duty of the

> > Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

>

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? How

> did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

 

Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

 

Also, it was a different yuga. they were nomads who traveled when they needed

more land. That abundance of land doesn't exist now.

 

Also , they lived in a society where noone was slaughtering cows, or using

oil, so the economic playing field was level.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2284927 from COM]

>

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

>

> > It is the duty of the

> > Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

>

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? How

> did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

 

Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

 

Also, it was a different yuga. they were nomads who traveled when they needed

more land. That abundance of land doesn't exist now.

 

Also , they lived in a society where noone was slaughtering cows, or using

oil, so the economic playing field was level.

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> "WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> > What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

How

> > did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

 

> The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

 

That is not true or at least fully accurate. In Krsna book there is

descriptions of Yasoda's and Nanda's extreme wealth in jewels, jewelry, gold,

silver, silks, opulent foods and spices (obviously from other parts of the

world/Bharatavarsha), marble, . He must also have had immense

cow-protection/bull management assets, i.e., yokes, carts, milk

pails/containers, etc. He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

form of reasonable wages to thousands of cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

shippers/farm workers, etc.

 

 

 

> Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

 

Gold coins were certainly used. Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

The goods produced in Vrindavana were not the only goods they used. They

bought with gold coins/jewels things like silk, marble, coral, silver, etc.

Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble Sudama

brahmana. Why are we somehow against this? Dvaraka, Indraprastha, Krsna and

the Pandavas were extremely opulent with millions of dollars in gold coins and

jewels. When you have a billion people in the city of Dvaraka you cetainly

have immense needs for importing goods and services which were purchased with

currency in whatever form. Millions of gallons of milk had to be shipped into

Dvaraka everyday along with millions of pounds of food, etc. They had highways

and skyscrapers as described in Krsna book.

 

Obviously we are not going to recreate Dvaraka - that is not the point at all

and we need not get lost in that train of thought ("That was then, this is

now"). My opinion is devotees can have opulence, money, jewels, etc. and still

perform devotional service perfectly. Opulence is a QUALITY of Krsna.

 

Greed, lust (including profit, adoration and distinction) and anger are the

problem. Simple living is not the cure-all for those diseases - devotional

service is. There are plenty of "self-sufficient" rural inhabitants who suffer

from the above three diseases, too.

 

I love simple living and farms and woods and country life too, but without

bhakti it is just as material as the city. I would much prefer to live in

Dvaraka as a devotee (or any city) than in the country in maya.

 

 

There are always adjustments to be made in regards to yugas. In my opinion, if

anything, in Kali-yuga we should learn to accept some of the contamination

which we inherited when our unfortunate birth, due to our karma/fault, put us

here and use it constructively for Krsna's service. We are not going to make

it Satya-yuga. We are not against technology.

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> "WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> > What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

How

> > did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

 

> The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

 

That is not true or at least fully accurate. In Krsna book there is

descriptions of Yasoda's and Nanda's extreme wealth in jewels, jewelry, gold,

silver, silks, opulent foods and spices (obviously from other parts of the

world/Bharatavarsha), marble, . He must also have had immense

cow-protection/bull management assets, i.e., yokes, carts, milk

pails/containers, etc. He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

form of reasonable wages to thousands of cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

shippers/farm workers, etc.

 

 

 

> Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

 

Gold coins were certainly used. Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

The goods produced in Vrindavana were not the only goods they used. They

bought with gold coins/jewels things like silk, marble, coral, silver, etc.

Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble Sudama

brahmana. Why are we somehow against this? Dvaraka, Indraprastha, Krsna and

the Pandavas were extremely opulent with millions of dollars in gold coins and

jewels. When you have a billion people in the city of Dvaraka you cetainly

have immense needs for importing goods and services which were purchased with

currency in whatever form. Millions of gallons of milk had to be shipped into

Dvaraka everyday along with millions of pounds of food, etc. They had highways

and skyscrapers as described in Krsna book.

 

Obviously we are not going to recreate Dvaraka - that is not the point at all

and we need not get lost in that train of thought ("That was then, this is

now"). My opinion is devotees can have opulence, money, jewels, etc. and still

perform devotional service perfectly. Opulence is a QUALITY of Krsna.

 

Greed, lust (including profit, adoration and distinction) and anger are the

problem. Simple living is not the cure-all for those diseases - devotional

service is. There are plenty of "self-sufficient" rural inhabitants who suffer

from the above three diseases, too.

 

I love simple living and farms and woods and country life too, but without

bhakti it is just as material as the city. I would much prefer to live in

Dvaraka as a devotee (or any city) than in the country in maya.

 

 

There are always adjustments to be made in regards to yugas. In my opinion, if

anything, in Kali-yuga we should learn to accept some of the contamination

which we inherited when our unfortunate birth, due to our karma/fault, put us

here and use it constructively for Krsna's service. We are not going to make

it Satya-yuga. We are not against technology.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2286637 from COM]

>

> On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

>

> > "WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

>

> > > What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

> How

> > > did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

>

>

> > The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

>

> That is not true or at least fully accurate. In Krsna book there is

> descriptions of Yasoda's and Nanda's extreme wealth in jewels, jewelry, gold,

> silver, silks, opulent foods and spices (obviously from other parts of the

> world/Bharatavarsha), marble, . He must also have had immense

> cow-protection/bull management assets, i.e., yokes, carts, milk

> pails/containers, etc. He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> form of reasonable wages to thousands of cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> shippers/farm workers, etc.

>

 

BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

 

>

>

> > Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

>

> Gold coins were certainly used

 

I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic value,

unlike money.

 

> . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

 

With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do healing.

Jewels

have intrinsic value.

 

>

> The goods produced in Vrindavana were not the only goods they used. They

> bought with gold coins/jewels things like silk, marble, coral, silver, etc.

> Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble Sudama

> brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

 

Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda Maharajah as

an

example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

circumstances

where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper money

wasn't

used.

 

Paper money creates ability to artifically concentrate wealth.

 

Even a gold-standard exchange and currency is bad. Gold-standard currency is

based

on falsehood because the currency is not on a par with the reserved gold. The

basic principle is falsity because currency notes are issued in value beyond

that

of the actual reserved gold. This artificial inflation of currency by the

authorities encourages prostitution of the state economy. The price of

commodities

becomes artificially inflated because of bad money, or artificial currency

notes.

Bad money drives away good money. Instead of paper currency, actual gold coins

should be used for exchange, and this will stop prostitution of gold. Gold

ornaments for women may be allowed by control, not by quality, but by quantity.

This will discourage lust, envy and enmity. When there is actual gold currency

in

the form of coins, the influence of gold in producing falsity, prostitution,

etc.,

will automatically cease. There will be no need of an anticorruption ministry

for

another term of prostitution and falsity of purpose.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.17.39

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2286637 from COM]

>

> On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

>

> > "WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

>

> > > What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

> How

> > > did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

>

>

> > The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

>

> That is not true or at least fully accurate. In Krsna book there is

> descriptions of Yasoda's and Nanda's extreme wealth in jewels, jewelry, gold,

> silver, silks, opulent foods and spices (obviously from other parts of the

> world/Bharatavarsha), marble, . He must also have had immense

> cow-protection/bull management assets, i.e., yokes, carts, milk

> pails/containers, etc. He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> form of reasonable wages to thousands of cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> shippers/farm workers, etc.

>

 

BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

 

>

>

> > Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

>

> Gold coins were certainly used

 

I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic value,

unlike money.

 

> . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

 

With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do healing.

Jewels

have intrinsic value.

 

>

> The goods produced in Vrindavana were not the only goods they used. They

> bought with gold coins/jewels things like silk, marble, coral, silver, etc.

> Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble Sudama

> brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

 

Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda Maharajah as

an

example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

circumstances

where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper money

wasn't

used.

 

Paper money creates ability to artifically concentrate wealth.

 

Even a gold-standard exchange and currency is bad. Gold-standard currency is

based

on falsehood because the currency is not on a par with the reserved gold. The

basic principle is falsity because currency notes are issued in value beyond

that

of the actual reserved gold. This artificial inflation of currency by the

authorities encourages prostitution of the state economy. The price of

commodities

becomes artificially inflated because of bad money, or artificial currency

notes.

Bad money drives away good money. Instead of paper currency, actual gold coins

should be used for exchange, and this will stop prostitution of gold. Gold

ornaments for women may be allowed by control, not by quality, but by quantity.

This will discourage lust, envy and enmity. When there is actual gold currency

in

the form of coins, the influence of gold in producing falsity, prostitution,

etc.,

will automatically cease. There will be no need of an anticorruption ministry

for

another term of prostitution and falsity of purpose.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.17.39

[Guest guest]

On 02 May 1999, Niscala dd wrote:

> Yes, technology can be used for preaching Krsna consciousness- e.g. printing

books, but it is NOT preaching for our agriculture to be dependent on it

 

Comment:

Precisely, we always seem to think that because we have been given permission

to use something that it is alright to use it however we want. If it is not

directly used for preaching it is not essential and therefore we should not be

dependent upon it.

 

“Whatever is available easily we can use. There is no objection to using

electricity. But we should not be dependent upon it.” Letter to Nityananda

dated 16th March, 1977.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

On 02 May 1999, Niscala dd wrote:

> Yes, technology can be used for preaching Krsna consciousness- e.g. printing

books, but it is NOT preaching for our agriculture to be dependent on it

 

Comment:

Precisely, we always seem to think that because we have been given permission

to use something that it is alright to use it however we want. If it is not

directly used for preaching it is not essential and therefore we should not be

dependent upon it.

 

“Whatever is available easily we can use. There is no objection to using

electricity. But we should not be dependent upon it.” Letter to Nityananda

dated 16th March, 1977.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> > form of reasonable wages to thousands of

cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> > shippers/farm workers, etc.

> >

>

> BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

 

 

I agree but they needed more than milk and some things they needed were paid

for with "money", gold or whatever name.

 

 

> > Gold coins were certainly used

>

> I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic value,

> unlike money.

 

 

No question. Far superior to paper.

 

 

 

> > . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

>

> With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do healing.

> Jewels

> have intrinsic value.

 

 

No question.

 

 

 

 

> > Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble

Sudama

> > brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

>

> Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda Maharajah

as

> an

> example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

> circumstances

> where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper money

> wasn't

> used.

 

 

The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

remuneration for services or products.

 

 

If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

 

I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is an

excuse for laziness and space-out.

 

"Srila Prabhupada: Are you under the impression that spiritual life means

voluntarily accepting poverty?

Reporter: Well, I don't know.

Srila Prabhupada: A poverty-stricken man may be materialistic and a wealthy

man may be very spiritual. Spiritual life does not depend on either poverty or

wealth." SSR

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> > form of reasonable wages to thousands of

cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> > shippers/farm workers, etc.

> >

>

> BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

 

 

I agree but they needed more than milk and some things they needed were paid

for with "money", gold or whatever name.

 

 

> > Gold coins were certainly used

>

> I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic value,

> unlike money.

 

 

No question. Far superior to paper.

 

 

 

> > . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

>

> With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do healing.

> Jewels

> have intrinsic value.

 

 

No question.

 

 

 

 

> > Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble

Sudama

> > brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

>

> Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda Maharajah

as

> an

> example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

> circumstances

> where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper money

> wasn't

> used.

 

 

The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

remuneration for services or products.

 

 

If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

 

I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is an

excuse for laziness and space-out.

 

"Srila Prabhupada: Are you under the impression that spiritual life means

voluntarily accepting poverty?

Reporter: Well, I don't know.

Srila Prabhupada: A poverty-stricken man may be materialistic and a wealthy

man may be very spiritual. Spiritual life does not depend on either poverty or

wealth." SSR

[Guest guest]

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

>

> > It is the duty of the

> > Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

>

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

> How did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

Value adding maybe, the gopis would go to sell milksweets. Maybe his wealth

was from grains.

 

On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

biggest expense.

 

Two families on the farm have agreed to share in the responsibility of

maintaining a milking cow and have agreed to share the milk at no cost with

the others while production is high. They may value add and sell the product

if they like. I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less

incentive to exploit the cow.

 

Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

Your servant, Gokula das.

[Guest guest]

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

>

> > It is the duty of the

> > Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

>

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

> How did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

Value adding maybe, the gopis would go to sell milksweets. Maybe his wealth

was from grains.

 

On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

biggest expense.

 

Two families on the farm have agreed to share in the responsibility of

maintaining a milking cow and have agreed to share the milk at no cost with

the others while production is high. They may value add and sell the product

if they like. I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less

incentive to exploit the cow.

 

Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

Your servant, Gokula das.

[Guest guest]

>"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" <jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net>

>jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net, Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se,

>Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se

>"COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>, "COM:

>Varnasrama development" <Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Re: Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

>Mon, 3 May 99 19:11 -0400

>

>[Text 2287378 from COM]

>

>On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> > He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> > > form of reasonable wages to thousands of

>cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> > > shippers/farm workers, etc.

> > >

> >

> > BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

>

>

>I agree but they needed more than milk and some things they needed were

>paid

>for with "money", gold or whatever name.

>

>

> > > Gold coins were certainly used

> >

> > I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic

>value,

> > unlike money.

>

>

>No question. Far superior to paper.

>

>

>

> > > . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

> >

> > With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do

>healing.

> > Jewels

> > have intrinsic value.

>

>

>No question.

>

This is not such a problem in Kali- yuga- there's so little of it. Wealth

like anything else can be used if its favorable to Krsna's service. If its

not engaged in Krsna's service, even jewels have no value- like the jewels

on the head of a serpent. They only have value

when combined with Krsna. However, maya is so strong that one may start out

in business, intending to use the profit for Krsna, and be attracted instead

into using it for sense-gratification, then its the source of misfortune.

This has been the tendency. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada desired our devotee

vaisyas to produce food- (the real type) and protect cows, both of which

there is a dire shortage in Kali-yuga, and by doing this gain real wealth.

Vedically, one's wealth is measured by one's stock of grains and one's

number of cows. If these are ample, other types of wealth will be present

automatically. Wealth was stored in the form of golden ornaments on the

bodies of the ladies, but when there was food shortage, they were traded for

food.

>

> > > Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble

>Sudama

> > > brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

> >

> > Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda

>Maharajah

>as

> > an

> > example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

> > circumstances

> > where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper

>money

> > wasn't

> > used.

>

>

>The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

>remuneration for services or products.

>

>

>If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

>

>I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is

>an

>excuse for laziness and space-out.

>

>"Srila Prabhupada: Are you under the impression that spiritual life means

>voluntarily accepting poverty?

>Reporter: Well, I don't know.

>Srila Prabhupada: A poverty-stricken man may be materialistic and a wealthy

>man may be very spiritual. Spiritual life does not depend on either poverty

>or

>wealth." No, but why do the brahmanas voluntarily accept vows of poverty?

>Because its entangling, this wealth, - Niscala

>

>

 

 

____

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

>"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" <jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net>

>jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net, Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se,

>Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se

>"COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>, "COM:

>Varnasrama development" <Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Re: Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

>Mon, 3 May 99 19:11 -0400

>

>[Text 2287378 from COM]

>

>On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> > He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> > > form of reasonable wages to thousands of

>cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> > > shippers/farm workers, etc.

> > >

> >

> > BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

>

>

>I agree but they needed more than milk and some things they needed were

>paid

>for with "money", gold or whatever name.

>

>

> > > Gold coins were certainly used

> >

> > I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic

>value,

> > unlike money.

>

>

>No question. Far superior to paper.

>

>

>

> > > . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

> >

> > With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do

>healing.

> > Jewels

> > have intrinsic value.

>

>

>No question.

>

This is not such a problem in Kali- yuga- there's so little of it. Wealth

like anything else can be used if its favorable to Krsna's service. If its

not engaged in Krsna's service, even jewels have no value- like the jewels

on the head of a serpent. They only have value

when combined with Krsna. However, maya is so strong that one may start out

in business, intending to use the profit for Krsna, and be attracted instead

into using it for sense-gratification, then its the source of misfortune.

This has been the tendency. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada desired our devotee

vaisyas to produce food- (the real type) and protect cows, both of which

there is a dire shortage in Kali-yuga, and by doing this gain real wealth.

Vedically, one's wealth is measured by one's stock of grains and one's

number of cows. If these are ample, other types of wealth will be present

automatically. Wealth was stored in the form of golden ornaments on the

bodies of the ladies, but when there was food shortage, they were traded for

food.

>

> > > Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble

>Sudama

> > > brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

> >

> > Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda

>Maharajah

>as

> > an

> > example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

> > circumstances

> > where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper

>money

> > wasn't

> > used.

>

>

>The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

>remuneration for services or products.

>

>

>If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

>

>I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is

>an

>excuse for laziness and space-out.

>

>"Srila Prabhupada: Are you under the impression that spiritual life means

>voluntarily accepting poverty?

>Reporter: Well, I don't know.

>Srila Prabhupada: A poverty-stricken man may be materialistic and a wealthy

>man may be very spiritual. Spiritual life does not depend on either poverty

>or

>wealth." No, but why do the brahmanas voluntarily accept vows of poverty?

>Because its entangling, this wealth, - Niscala

>

>

 

 

____

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

 

> Maybe his wealth

> was from grains.

 

 

No. His wealth was from working his devotee butt off. Perspiration. And

emplying thousands and thousands of others in the milk production "business"

or whatever name you want to give it. Nanda had a million cows! Do you realize

how many gallons of milk, pounds of butter, curd and yogurt that is daily? Was

he just throwing the milk on the ground? I doubt it. How many residents of

Vrindavana were there? Certainly not even close to enough to consume tis

amount of milk products. Wouldn't it seem common sense that Nanda was serving

his king faithfully and producing the milk required by the inhabitants of the

nearby cities who could not produce milk in the city? And the king was

assuring Nanda that all of his necessities were taken care of and much more in

the way of wealth? It was a gigantic enterprise the likes of which we do not

even see nowadays. A MILLION cows! How many millions of acres of land were

being managed? Employees? Hard work every single day.

 

Or do we not really believe this?

 

 

 

> On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

> devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

> reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

> have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

> biggest expense.

 

 

I can understand that everyone must be very sad about the situation and that

everyone wishes it could be different. It is sometimes very hard to organize

and instill incentive and inspiration into people to do things that they

otherwise know would be a positive thing.

 

But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying blood

milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred cows

and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

 

 

I presume what we are saying is that because we cannot inspire our devotees to

take up the task of vaisya responsibilities in the IDEAL manner then just

forget about it all together and let the cows and bulls die "naturally"? At

least they are being protected from cow slaughter?

 

In my opinion it sounds like the same old ISKCON devotee story of clear cut

laziness due to false renunciation of the varnsrama-dharma institution which

requires perspiration from hard work. Renounce the varnas other than

"brahmana" (so-called) and depend upon the karmis to supply all of our needs

while condemning them as fruitive.

 

It would seem far more practical to accept our fallen nature of not being able

to fulfill on the "ideal" of simple living without so-called "ugra-karma" acts

and at least make as much money at agriculture as common farmers do everyday.

We think that we MUST milk by hand and farm with oxen only otherwise we are

failing the "Vedicdevotee" ways so we just give up all together instead of

engaging the modes of nature in the service of the Lord.

 

Take up the tractor and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a

livelihood. Many more young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if

they had the modern technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid normal

wages. Make a smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't

falsely renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in

the service of the Lord all is purified.

 

What would happen if we had disallowed all book distributors and city temple

devotees from utilizing gasoline? They had to walk wherever they wanted to go

and distribute the books. And the books themselves would have to be published

without the use of electricity. No cars, no airplanes for the sannyasis. Walk

to Mayapura. What would Srila Prabhupada have said about that?

 

Is not devotee farming preaching? ITS ALL PREACHING. If we have to accept some

less than ideal means so be it.

 

 

 

> I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less

> incentive to exploit the cow.

 

 

It IS a commodity. Until Satya yuga comes around again I'd get used to the

facts of Kali life. We obviously aren't doing very well at stemming the tide

of Kali's influence even in devotee communities.

 

Transition is the key. Practical, managed, real time transition.

 

 

> Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

 

Charity starts at home.

[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

 

> Maybe his wealth

> was from grains.

 

 

No. His wealth was from working his devotee butt off. Perspiration. And

emplying thousands and thousands of others in the milk production "business"

or whatever name you want to give it. Nanda had a million cows! Do you realize

how many gallons of milk, pounds of butter, curd and yogurt that is daily? Was

he just throwing the milk on the ground? I doubt it. How many residents of

Vrindavana were there? Certainly not even close to enough to consume tis

amount of milk products. Wouldn't it seem common sense that Nanda was serving

his king faithfully and producing the milk required by the inhabitants of the

nearby cities who could not produce milk in the city? And the king was

assuring Nanda that all of his necessities were taken care of and much more in

the way of wealth? It was a gigantic enterprise the likes of which we do not

even see nowadays. A MILLION cows! How many millions of acres of land were

being managed? Employees? Hard work every single day.

 

Or do we not really believe this?

 

 

 

> On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

> devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

> reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

> have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

> biggest expense.

 

 

I can understand that everyone must be very sad about the situation and that

everyone wishes it could be different. It is sometimes very hard to organize

and instill incentive and inspiration into people to do things that they

otherwise know would be a positive thing.

 

But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying blood

milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred cows

and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

 

 

I presume what we are saying is that because we cannot inspire our devotees to

take up the task of vaisya responsibilities in the IDEAL manner then just

forget about it all together and let the cows and bulls die "naturally"? At

least they are being protected from cow slaughter?

 

In my opinion it sounds like the same old ISKCON devotee story of clear cut

laziness due to false renunciation of the varnsrama-dharma institution which

requires perspiration from hard work. Renounce the varnas other than

"brahmana" (so-called) and depend upon the karmis to supply all of our needs

while condemning them as fruitive.

 

It would seem far more practical to accept our fallen nature of not being able

to fulfill on the "ideal" of simple living without so-called "ugra-karma" acts

and at least make as much money at agriculture as common farmers do everyday.

We think that we MUST milk by hand and farm with oxen only otherwise we are

failing the "Vedicdevotee" ways so we just give up all together instead of

engaging the modes of nature in the service of the Lord.

 

Take up the tractor and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a

livelihood. Many more young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if

they had the modern technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid normal

wages. Make a smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't

falsely renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in

the service of the Lord all is purified.

 

What would happen if we had disallowed all book distributors and city temple

devotees from utilizing gasoline? They had to walk wherever they wanted to go

and distribute the books. And the books themselves would have to be published

without the use of electricity. No cars, no airplanes for the sannyasis. Walk

to Mayapura. What would Srila Prabhupada have said about that?

 

Is not devotee farming preaching? ITS ALL PREACHING. If we have to accept some

less than ideal means so be it.

 

 

 

> I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less

> incentive to exploit the cow.

 

 

It IS a commodity. Until Satya yuga comes around again I'd get used to the

facts of Kali life. We obviously aren't doing very well at stemming the tide

of Kali's influence even in devotee communities.

 

Transition is the key. Practical, managed, real time transition.

 

 

> Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

 

Charity starts at home.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

> remuneration for services or products.

>

> If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

 

Yes, being production oriented is a necessary thing. the society has to be

fed.

For the immediate future, I am afraid we are stuck with paper money.

 

>

>

> I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is an

> excuse for laziness and space-out.

 

There is also a lifestyle based on the artificial manipulation of paper and

electronic funds that breeds laziness and being spaced out that needs to be

avoided.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

> remuneration for services or products.

>

> If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

 

Yes, being production oriented is a necessary thing. the society has to be

fed.

For the immediate future, I am afraid we are stuck with paper money.

 

>

>

> I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is an

> excuse for laziness and space-out.

 

There is also a lifestyle based on the artificial manipulation of paper and

electronic funds that breeds laziness and being spaced out that needs to be

avoided.

[Guest guest]

> Was

> he just throwing the milk on the ground?

 

Why you are cutting the throat of the cows? After all, you have to get from the

mahi, from the land. So as they are, the animal which you are eating, they are

getting their eatables from the land. Why don't you get your eatables from the

land? Therefore it is said, sarva-kama-dugha mahi. You can get all the

necessities

of your life from land. So dugha means produce. You can produce your food. Some

land should be producing the foodstuff for the animals, and some land should be

used for the production of your foodstuffs, grains, fruits, flowers, and take

milk. Why should you kill these innocent animals? You take. You keep them muda,

happy, and you get so much milk that it will moist, it will make wet the

ground.

This is civilization. This is civilization.

That was being maintained during the time of Maharaja Yudhisthira. That is

being

described. Maharaja Yudhisthira maintained this standard of civilization. Just

see

how the economic problems will be solved simply by one movement, this Krsna

consciousness movement. Try to understand. Mahi. Because mahi will produce

everything.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => HIGHLIGHTS: Regulative principles to fulfill

desires...protect cows and prosper, kill cows and suffer...get all your

necessities fr

 

 

 

[sB 1.10.4]

"During the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira, the clouds showered all the water

that

people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion.

Due

to its fatty milk bag, and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the

grazing

ground with milk."

Prabhupada: Now, happy attitude. Now the cow are going to be killed. They know

it,

that "We are going to be killed." They're also intelligent living entity. So

how

they can be happy? If some human being concentrated in a camp, and they know

that

"We are going to be killed," can they be happy? So if one is not happy, if the

cow

is not happy, can she supply sufficient milk? No. No. Therefore just they were

happy. Therefore milk was supplied so much that the grazing ground became wet

with

milk. Muddy. With milk, not with water. So we, we have no intelligence how to

live. We... Our Bhagavad-gita says, krsi-go-raksya vaisya. Means

krsi-go-raksya,

to protect cows. Nowadays not to protect cows -- to kill cows. Just see,

business.

Vaisya means businessman. So vaisya's business is krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam

vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [bg. 18.44]. But no go-raksya. Cutting the throat of

go.

This kind of sinful activities are going on, and they want to be happy. Instead

of

giving protection to the cows... In the Bible, also it is said that the animals

are given under the protection of the human being.

Paramahamsa: Man, yeah, yes.

Prabhupada: Man. The protection means to kill them. Just see. They have

interpreted like that, that "The animals have been given to us to kill them and

eat." This is their interpretation.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5,

1973, Stockholm

 

 

 

 

>

>

> But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

> vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

> reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

> cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying

blood

> milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

Yet an undeniable reality of a failed attempt to establish VAD that can't just

be

wished away.

 

>

>

> I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

> leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred

cows

> and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

>

 

A painful learning experience.

 

>

> Take up the tractor and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a

> livelihood.

 

Been there, done that, and have 200+ cows now instead of 40. It is not

possible

to earn a living from milking cows if you don't slaughter the unproductive

ones,

unless it is subsidized. If the devotees working in the paper money economy

will

purify their wealth by contributing to Trust Funds that subsidize the cow

protection, then it might possibly all work as a team effort.

 

> Many more young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if

> they had the modern technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid

normal

> wages. Make a smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't

> falsely renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in

> the service of the Lord all is purified.

 

Actually, having been that route at NV, i can say with some authority, the

"modern " technologies are pretty hellish and not many devotees wanted to go

that

way. But I definately agree with you strong position on work. No matter what

the

system, without a productive class, the whole thing will perish.

[Guest guest]

> Was

> he just throwing the milk on the ground?

 

Why you are cutting the throat of the cows? After all, you have to get from the

mahi, from the land. So as they are, the animal which you are eating, they are

getting their eatables from the land. Why don't you get your eatables from the

land? Therefore it is said, sarva-kama-dugha mahi. You can get all the

necessities

of your life from land. So dugha means produce. You can produce your food. Some

land should be producing the foodstuff for the animals, and some land should be

used for the production of your foodstuffs, grains, fruits, flowers, and take

milk. Why should you kill these innocent animals? You take. You keep them muda,

happy, and you get so much milk that it will moist, it will make wet the

ground.

This is civilization. This is civilization.

That was being maintained during the time of Maharaja Yudhisthira. That is

being

described. Maharaja Yudhisthira maintained this standard of civilization. Just

see

how the economic problems will be solved simply by one movement, this Krsna

consciousness movement. Try to understand. Mahi. Because mahi will produce

everything.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => HIGHLIGHTS: Regulative principles to fulfill

desires...protect cows and prosper, kill cows and suffer...get all your

necessities fr

 

 

 

[sB 1.10.4]

"During the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira, the clouds showered all the water

that

people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion.

Due

to its fatty milk bag, and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the

grazing

ground with milk."

Prabhupada: Now, happy attitude. Now the cow are going to be killed. They know

it,

that "We are going to be killed." They're also intelligent living entity. So

how

they can be happy? If some human being concentrated in a camp, and they know

that

"We are going to be killed," can they be happy? So if one is not happy, if the

cow

is not happy, can she supply sufficient milk? No. No. Therefore just they were

happy. Therefore milk was supplied so much that the grazing ground became wet

with

milk. Muddy. With milk, not with water. So we, we have no intelligence how to

live. We... Our Bhagavad-gita says, krsi-go-raksya vaisya. Means

krsi-go-raksya,

to protect cows. Nowadays not to protect cows -- to kill cows. Just see,

business.

Vaisya means businessman. So vaisya's business is krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam

vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [bg. 18.44]. But no go-raksya. Cutting the throat of

go.

This kind of sinful activities are going on, and they want to be happy. Instead

of

giving protection to the cows... In the Bible, also it is said that the animals

are given under the protection of the human being.

Paramahamsa: Man, yeah, yes.

Prabhupada: Man. The protection means to kill them. Just see. They have

interpreted like that, that "The animals have been given to us to kill them and

eat." This is their interpretation.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5,

1973, Stockholm

 

 

 

 

>

>

> But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

> vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

> reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

> cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying

blood

> milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

Yet an undeniable reality of a failed attempt to establish VAD that can't just

be

wished away.

 

>

>

> I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

> leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred

cows

> and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

>

 

A painful learning experience.

 

>

> Take up the tractor and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a

> livelihood.

 

Been there, done that, and have 200+ cows now instead of 40. It is not

possible

to earn a living from milking cows if you don't slaughter the unproductive

ones,

unless it is subsidized. If the devotees working in the paper money economy

will

purify their wealth by contributing to Trust Funds that subsidize the cow

protection, then it might possibly all work as a team effort.

 

> Many more young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if

> they had the modern technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid

normal

> wages. Make a smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't

> falsely renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in

> the service of the Lord all is purified.

 

Actually, having been that route at NV, i can say with some authority, the

"modern " technologies are pretty hellish and not many devotees wanted to go

that

way. But I definately agree with you strong position on work. No matter what

the

system, without a productive class, the whole thing will perish.

[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > Maybe his wealth was from grains.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> No. His wealth was from working his devotee butt off. Perspiration. And

emplying thousands and thousands of others in the milk production "business"

or whatever name you want to give it. Nanda had a million cows! Do you realize

how many gallons of milk, pounds of butter, curd and yogurt that is daily? Was

he just throwing the milk on the ground?

 

Comment:

Indirectly yes, the cows wet the fields with their milk and the Vaisya

community on occasion threw butter lavishly on each other’s bodies without

restriction. SB ch. 5 of the 10th canto.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

I doubt it. How many residents of Vrindavana were there?

 

Comment:

They were living in Gokula a small sub-village of Vrndavan, the population of

the world was much greater then it is today. Just see how many persons

inhabited Dvarka and Mathura. Nanda was in his own right a king, sure he was a

lesser king but still a king with subjects and large tracts of land. He paid

annual taxes to Kamsa because he managed a portion of Kamsa’s kingdom.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

Certainly not even close to enough to consume tis amount of milk products.

Wouldn't it seem common sense that Nanda was serving his king faithfully and

producing the milk required by the inhabitants of the nearby cities who could

not produce milk in the city?

 

Comment:

Very likely according to the evidence Srila Prabhupada gives us in KRSNA BOOK.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

And the king was assuring Nanda that all of his necessities were taken care of

and much more in the way of wealth? It was a gigantic enterprise the likes of

which we do not even see nowadays. A MILLION cows! How many millions of acres

of land were being managed? Employees? Hard work every single day. Or do we

not really believe this?

 

Comment:

It sounds astonishing but is the word of Guru. If one does not believe these

plain statements of KRSNA BOOK it indicates to me he has no faith in

guru-sadhu-sastra and if he does so it is likely he will not be chanting. No

chanting or offering in charity indicates poverty and one is doomed to

repeated birth and death in this material world.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

biggest expense.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> I can understand that everyone must be very sad about the situation and that

everyone wishes it could be different. It is sometimes very hard to organize

and instill incentive and inspiration into people to do things that they

otherwise know would be a positive thing.

 

> But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying blood

milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred cows

and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

 

Comment:

I agree and this is applicable to all farms that are now managing their herds

in the same manner (from what I have seen this is the present standard in

ISKCON).

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

I presume what we are saying is that because we cannot inspire our devotees to

take up the task of vaisya responsibilities in the IDEAL manner then just

forget about it all together and let the cows and bulls die "naturally"? At

least they are being protected from cow slaughter?

 

Comment:

This is what we are doing.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

In my opinion it sounds like the same old ISKCON devotee story of clear cut

laziness due to false renunciation of the varnsrama-dharma institution which

requires perspiration from hard work. Renounce the varnas other than

"brahmana" (so-called) and depend upon the karmis to supply all of our needs

while condemning them as fruitive.

 

Comment:

Call the kettle black and throw out the baby with the bath water. If the shoe

fits wear it.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

It would seem far more practical to accept our fallen nature of not being able

to fulfill on the "ideal" of simple living without so-called "ugra-karma" acts

and at least make as much money at agriculture as common farmers do everyday.

We think that we MUST milk by hand and farm with oxen only otherwise we are

failing the "Vedicdevotee" ways so we just give up all together instead of

engaging the modes of nature in the service of the Lord. Take up the tractor

and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a livelihood. Many more

young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if they had the modern

technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid normal wages. Make a

smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't falsely

renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in the

service of the Lord all is purified.

 

Comment:

This is also not acceptable. It will lead to involvement with those wrapped up

in returning again for another birth. We have to be ready to give everything

to Krsna without reservation not just a token nod of the head. For that is

what we are doing now. Srila Prabhupada requested us to do it immediately

(what is the count since that day?) not to be dependent (milk machine and

tractor mean this). “Our principle we are against nothing and for nothing.

Only for Krsna. We want what ever is favourable for Krsna.” So we must be

ready to perspire, give substantial recognition to the Real Proprietor by our

charity and always decorate our tongue with His holy names. We must have full

faith in guru and Krsna that nothing is impossible, if we act in that way all

will come to be as it should be.

 

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

What would happen if we had disallowed all book distributors and city temple

devotees from utilizing gasoline? They had to walk wherever they wanted to go

and distribute the books. And the books themselves would have to be published

without the use of electricity. No cars, no airplanes for the sannyasis. Walk

to Mayapura. What would Srila Prabhupada have said about that? Is not devotee

farming preaching? ITS ALL PREACHING. If we have to accept some less than

ideal means so be it.

 

Comment;

It is all preaching only as long as the results are given away in charity.

Those activities were all engaged in without expectation of remuneration, or

in pursuance of giving Krsna to others. All ones endeavour to glorify the

Lord. If you get 50 gallons of milk a day then 25 must be given to the temple

administrator who will direct the temple brahmanas to cook and offer 12.5

gallons to the Deities. The other 12.5 gallons he will see is distributed to

the less fortunate. Twelve and a half gallons you are to use for your families

needs (milk, butter, etc.) if you are unable to use then this portion you must

sell/trade for the rest of your needs. The last 12.5 gallons are to be turned

into ghee and stored in case of emergency. You must do this with the results

of all your sweat. The renounced orders (brahmacari, vanaprasta and sannyas)

can only take what is needed for simple sustenance and get no material

returns. So if you want to live above the poverty level you really got to

sweat or inherit it from your ancestors (who had to sweat, some one has to

sweat). But remember sadhana comes first and then the emotional needs of the

family members. Followed by sweating. The higher the standard you want the

more you have to sweat. Follow in the path of Bhaktivinode Thakura.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less incentive to

exploit the cow.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> It IS a commodity. Until Satya yuga comes around again I'd get used to the

facts of Kali life. We obviously aren't doing very well at stemming the tide

of Kali's influence even in devotee communities. Transition is the key.

Practical, managed, real time transition.

 

Comment:

It is a commodity, a symbol of our wealth. If the number of cows are decreased

and you depend on the non-devotees for milk or diesel you are in the same boat

destined to become stuck on the wheel of samsara. This is the practically of

the situation. Gaudiya means no compromise on the order of guru. We are not

doing well because we have not got full faith in the holy name and the

directions of guru. It will require a lot of sweat and anxiety, it is a test

of our sincerity. The way back home is narrow, rocky and you are tested at

every step be worthy and do not take to the wider and less rocky ways that

only lead back again to this material world.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

Charity starts at home.

 

Comment:

Remember whose home this is, it is Krsna’s.

[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > Maybe his wealth was from grains.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> No. His wealth was from working his devotee butt off. Perspiration. And

emplying thousands and thousands of others in the milk production "business"

or whatever name you want to give it. Nanda had a million cows! Do you realize

how many gallons of milk, pounds of butter, curd and yogurt that is daily? Was

he just throwing the milk on the ground?

 

Comment:

Indirectly yes, the cows wet the fields with their milk and the Vaisya

community on occasion threw butter lavishly on each other’s bodies without

restriction. SB ch. 5 of the 10th canto.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

I doubt it. How many residents of Vrindavana were there?

 

Comment:

They were living in Gokula a small sub-village of Vrndavan, the population of

the world was much greater then it is today. Just see how many persons

inhabited Dvarka and Mathura. Nanda was in his own right a king, sure he was a

lesser king but still a king with subjects and large tracts of land. He paid

annual taxes to Kamsa because he managed a portion of Kamsa’s kingdom.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

Certainly not even close to enough to consume tis amount of milk products.

Wouldn't it seem common sense that Nanda was serving his king faithfully and

producing the milk required by the inhabitants of the nearby cities who could

not produce milk in the city?

 

Comment:

Very likely according to the evidence Srila Prabhupada gives us in KRSNA BOOK.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

And the king was assuring Nanda that all of his necessities were taken care of

and much more in the way of wealth? It was a gigantic enterprise the likes of

which we do not even see nowadays. A MILLION cows! How many millions of acres

of land were being managed? Employees? Hard work every single day. Or do we

not really believe this?

 

Comment:

It sounds astonishing but is the word of Guru. If one does not believe these

plain statements of KRSNA BOOK it indicates to me he has no faith in

guru-sadhu-sastra and if he does so it is likely he will not be chanting. No

chanting or offering in charity indicates poverty and one is doomed to

repeated birth and death in this material world.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

biggest expense.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> I can understand that everyone must be very sad about the situation and that

everyone wishes it could be different. It is sometimes very hard to organize

and instill incentive and inspiration into people to do things that they

otherwise know would be a positive thing.

 

> But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying blood

milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred cows

and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

 

Comment:

I agree and this is applicable to all farms that are now managing their herds

in the same manner (from what I have seen this is the present standard in

ISKCON).

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

I presume what we are saying is that because we cannot inspire our devotees to

take up the task of vaisya responsibilities in the IDEAL manner then just

forget about it all together and let the cows and bulls die "naturally"? At

least they are being protected from cow slaughter?

 

Comment:

This is what we are doing.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

In my opinion it sounds like the same old ISKCON devotee story of clear cut

laziness due to false renunciation of the varnsrama-dharma institution which

requires perspiration from hard work. Renounce the varnas other than

"brahmana" (so-called) and depend upon the karmis to supply all of our needs

while condemning them as fruitive.

 

Comment:

Call the kettle black and throw out the baby with the bath water. If the shoe

fits wear it.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

It would seem far more practical to accept our fallen nature of not being able

to fulfill on the "ideal" of simple living without so-called "ugra-karma" acts

and at least make as much money at agriculture as common farmers do everyday.

We think that we MUST milk by hand and farm with oxen only otherwise we are

failing the "Vedicdevotee" ways so we just give up all together instead of

engaging the modes of nature in the service of the Lord. Take up the tractor

and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a livelihood. Many more

young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if they had the modern

technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid normal wages. Make a

smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't falsely

renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in the

service of the Lord all is purified.

 

Comment:

This is also not acceptable. It will lead to involvement with those wrapped up

in returning again for another birth. We have to be ready to give everything

to Krsna without reservation not just a token nod of the head. For that is

what we are doing now. Srila Prabhupada requested us to do it immediately

(what is the count since that day?) not to be dependent (milk machine and

tractor mean this). “Our principle we are against nothing and for nothing.

Only for Krsna. We want what ever is favourable for Krsna.” So we must be

ready to perspire, give substantial recognition to the Real Proprietor by our

charity and always decorate our tongue with His holy names. We must have full

faith in guru and Krsna that nothing is impossible, if we act in that way all

will come to be as it should be.

 

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

What would happen if we had disallowed all book distributors and city temple

devotees from utilizing gasoline? They had to walk wherever they wanted to go

and distribute the books. And the books themselves would have to be published

without the use of electricity. No cars, no airplanes for the sannyasis. Walk

to Mayapura. What would Srila Prabhupada have said about that? Is not devotee

farming preaching? ITS ALL PREACHING. If we have to accept some less than

ideal means so be it.

 

Comment;

It is all preaching only as long as the results are given away in charity.

Those activities were all engaged in without expectation of remuneration, or

in pursuance of giving Krsna to others. All ones endeavour to glorify the

Lord. If you get 50 gallons of milk a day then 25 must be given to the temple

administrator who will direct the temple brahmanas to cook and offer 12.5

gallons to the Deities. The other 12.5 gallons he will see is distributed to

the less fortunate. Twelve and a half gallons you are to use for your families

needs (milk, butter, etc.) if you are unable to use then this portion you must

sell/trade for the rest of your needs. The last 12.5 gallons are to be turned

into ghee and stored in case of emergency. You must do this with the results

of all your sweat. The renounced orders (brahmacari, vanaprasta and sannyas)

can only take what is needed for simple sustenance and get no material

returns. So if you want to live above the poverty level you really got to

sweat or inherit it from your ancestors (who had to sweat, some one has to

sweat). But remember sadhana comes first and then the emotional needs of the

family members. Followed by sweating. The higher the standard you want the

more you have to sweat. Follow in the path of Bhaktivinode Thakura.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less incentive to

exploit the cow.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> It IS a commodity. Until Satya yuga comes around again I'd get used to the

facts of Kali life. We obviously aren't doing very well at stemming the tide

of Kali's influence even in devotee communities. Transition is the key.

Practical, managed, real time transition.

 

Comment:

It is a commodity, a symbol of our wealth. If the number of cows are decreased

and you depend on the non-devotees for milk or diesel you are in the same boat

destined to become stuck on the wheel of samsara. This is the practically of

the situation. Gaudiya means no compromise on the order of guru. We are not

doing well because we have not got full faith in the holy name and the

directions of guru. It will require a lot of sweat and anxiety, it is a test

of our sincerity. The way back home is narrow, rocky and you are tested at

every step be worthy and do not take to the wider and less rocky ways that

only lead back again to this material world.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

Charity starts at home.

 

Comment:

Remember whose home this is, it is Krsna’s.

[Guest guest]

 > The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form,

reasonable remuneration for services or products. If we can improve on the

present system of paper via bartering...great!

 

 On 04 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

> Yes, being production oriented is a necessary thing. the society has to be

fed. For the immediate future, I am afraid we are stuck with paper money.

 

 I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which

sometimes is an excuse for laziness and space-out.

 

 On 04 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>There is also a lifestyle based on the artificial manipulation of paper and

electronic funds that breeds laziness and being spaced out that needs to be

avoided.

 

Comment:

It is of the utmost importance that the devotees should try as much as

possible to buy from other Vaisnavas. If they did a demand would be there and

the devotee farmer would be inclined to fulfill this need. As it is now, they

have no market or a best just a very small clientele. If we must conform to

the non-devotee economic market then it should be from those products that

have the least amount of karmic result.

ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

 > The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form,

reasonable remuneration for services or products. If we can improve on the

present system of paper via bartering...great!

 

 On 04 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

> Yes, being production oriented is a necessary thing. the society has to be

fed. For the immediate future, I am afraid we are stuck with paper money.

 

 I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which

sometimes is an excuse for laziness and space-out.

 

 On 04 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>There is also a lifestyle based on the artificial manipulation of paper and

electronic funds that breeds laziness and being spaced out that needs to be

avoided.

 

Comment:

It is of the utmost importance that the devotees should try as much as

possible to buy from other Vaisnavas. If they did a demand would be there and

the devotee farmer would be inclined to fulfill this need. As it is now, they

have no market or a best just a very small clientele. If we must conform to

the non-devotee economic market then it should be from those products that

have the least amount of karmic result.

ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

Janesvara wrote

>

> No. His wealth was from working his devotee butt off. Perspiration. And

> emplying thousands and thousands of others in the milk production

> "business" or whatever name you want to give it. Nanda had a million cows!

> Do you realize how many gallons of milk, pounds of butter, curd and yogurt

> that is daily? Was he just throwing the milk on the ground? I doubt it.

> How many residents of Vrindavana were there? Certainly not even close to

> enough to consume tis amount of milk products. Wouldn't it seem common

> sense that Nanda was serving his king faithfully and producing the milk

> required by the inhabitants of the nearby cities who could not produce

> milk in the city? And the king was assuring Nanda that all of his

> necessities were taken care of and much more in the way of wealth? It was

> a gigantic enterprise the likes of which we do not even see nowadays. A

> MILLION cows! How many millions of acres of land were being managed?

> Employees? Hard work every single day.

>

 

I agree certainly work for everybody.

 

> Or do we not really believe this?

>

 

Here are some figures to ponder

 

If Nanda maharaja was able to utilise all of Vrindavan, 64 square miles, and

was keeping 900 thousand cows then he was maintaining 55 cows to the

hectare. If all the cows were milking then there were 900,000 calves plus,

at 50% male birth rate, 900,000 bulls/bullocks this gives us 165 bovines per

hectare. A fairly amazing level of carrying capacity of the land which has

to be transendentally understood. The land we have in Kali yuga cannot

sustain these levels of production so it is wrong to judge the present

activities of the farms based on the descriptions in the Krsna book.

 

Our farm of 200 acres has been evaluated to have a sustainable herd of 8

refreshed cows per year, a herd of 120. Melbourne temple and it's

restaurants use 100 kg of ghee per week which would require a milking herd

of 35, so you can see how difficult it is to equate our apparent

inadequacies to the expectation of the temple devotees who, after reading

the Krsna book, cannot understand our performance levels.

 

I am sure that farm devotees all over the world are pondering or have

pondered the difficulties of maintaining cows and models are being tried

everywhere. In the future more answers will be available.

 

I hope my mathematics is correct.

 

Your servant, Gokula das