Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

[Guest guest]

"COM: Trayimaya (das) HKS (Aarhus - DK)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2264551 from COM]

>

> This is news for me.

> I´ve heard of poorly managed cows in ISKCON and I thought this is what was

> rumoured about - but cowslaughter?!

> Another veiled aspect of ISKCON (hopefully) past?

> Is this true, and if, what is the story, anybody?

>

> Your servant Trayimaya dasa

 

This is a hideous gross lie, at least as far as New Vrindaban goes.

[Guest guest]

"COM: Trayimaya (das) HKS (Aarhus - DK)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2264551 from COM]

>

> This is news for me.

> I´ve heard of poorly managed cows in ISKCON and I thought this is what was

> rumoured about - but cowslaughter?!

> Another veiled aspect of ISKCON (hopefully) past?

> Is this true, and if, what is the story, anybody?

>

> Your servant Trayimaya dasa

 

This is a hideous gross lie, at least as far as New Vrindaban goes.

[Guest guest]

>

 

> This is a hideous gross lie, at least as far as New Vrindaban goes.

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess that means the insinuation that there is a meat processing plant on

the farm is not true. At least Mr. Coupe has assured us you were not involved

in this alleged business, to the best of his currently available knowledge.

 

 

 

At the very least it appears that your are not a woman with illicit desires to

carry a danda, which might be the only thing that could be considered even

worse.

[Guest guest]

>

 

> This is a hideous gross lie, at least as far as New Vrindaban goes.

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess that means the insinuation that there is a meat processing plant on

the farm is not true. At least Mr. Coupe has assured us you were not involved

in this alleged business, to the best of his currently available knowledge.

 

 

 

At the very least it appears that your are not a woman with illicit desires to

carry a danda, which might be the only thing that could be considered even

worse.

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)

> wrote:

> >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand it if

> >this is not the proper forum to discuss it.

 

Yes, we can discuss what is male and what is female as relevant topics but not

cow slaughter. By the way, it is not the accusation of one member but rather

the position of the Iskcon Minister of Agriculture. Doesn't that have any

merit for you? Is cow protection not part of varnasrama? Have you read the

Bhagavad Gita?

>

> I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to

> read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit

> another member during a discussion of a completely different topic.

 

Such is the madness of the varnasrama conference and the Internet in general.

>

> Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

> slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g

> the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, are

> there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

 

Yes, Prsni dasi is certainly the person we want to find out from in regards to

what is sane and what is not. Hopefully, whatever decision is made we can

follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would think that coming

to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business is important to

varnasrama development since it has dragged down practically every project in

the movement.

 

Perhaps we can start handing out condoms to the bulls.

[Guest guest]

On 25 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)

> wrote:

> >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand it if

> >this is not the proper forum to discuss it.

 

Yes, we can discuss what is male and what is female as relevant topics but not

cow slaughter. By the way, it is not the accusation of one member but rather

the position of the Iskcon Minister of Agriculture. Doesn't that have any

merit for you? Is cow protection not part of varnasrama? Have you read the

Bhagavad Gita?

>

> I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to

> read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit

> another member during a discussion of a completely different topic.

 

Such is the madness of the varnasrama conference and the Internet in general.

>

> Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

> slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g

> the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, are

> there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

 

Yes, Prsni dasi is certainly the person we want to find out from in regards to

what is sane and what is not. Hopefully, whatever decision is made we can

follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would think that coming

to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business is important to

varnasrama development since it has dragged down practically every project in

the movement.

 

Perhaps we can start handing out condoms to the bulls.

[Guest guest]

> Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

> slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g

> the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place,

> are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

No need in discussing accusations.

Are there some facts?

A story to be told and learned from.

The discussion in principle belongs to both varnasrama- and cowprotection

conferences. Varnasrama is very much based on cowprotection.

 

 

ys Trayimaya dasa

[Guest guest]

> Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

> slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g

> the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place,

> are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

No need in discussing accusations.

Are there some facts?

A story to be told and learned from.

The discussion in principle belongs to both varnasrama- and cowprotection

conferences. Varnasrama is very much based on cowprotection.

 

 

ys Trayimaya dasa

[Guest guest]

At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)

wrote:

>I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand it if

>this is not the proper forum to discuss it.

 

I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to

read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit

another member during a discussion of a completely different topic.

 

Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g

the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, are

there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo - N)

wrote:

>I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand it if

>this is not the proper forum to discuss it.

 

I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to

read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit

another member during a discussion of a completely different topic.

 

Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g

the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place, are

there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to

> read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit

> another member during a discussion of a completely different topic.

>

> Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

> slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g

> the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place,

> are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

 

Since there is already a conference for that specific topic, I think the

discussions should be there. Everyone interested in that will already be

in the conference, and ready to partake in the discussion. There is no

use discussing something which has a particular conference, in

another conference.

 

ys Prisni dasi

[Guest guest]

> I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to

> read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to discredit

> another member during a discussion of a completely different topic.

>

> Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

> slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to e.g

> the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take place,

> are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

 

Since there is already a conference for that specific topic, I think the

discussions should be there. Everyone interested in that will already be

in the conference, and ready to partake in the discussion. There is no

use discussing something which has a particular conference, in

another conference.

 

ys Prisni dasi

[Guest guest]

> > At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo -

> > N) wrote:

> > >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand

> > >it if this is not the proper forum to discuss it.

>

> Yes, we can discuss what is male and what is female as relevant topics but

> not cow slaughter.

 

The way you threw out your accusation, I thought that it could be wise to

try to cool it down a little. Now things have happened anyway, and it seems

like your first accusation was pretty weakly founded.

 

> By the way, it is not the accusation of one member but

> rather the position of the Iskcon Minister of Agriculture. Doesn't that

> have any merit for you?

 

Well, ISCOWP have already submitted their comment now, and it was not

entirely negative towards New Vrindavana or the devotees you accused.

Doesn't that have any merit for you?

 

> Is cow protection not part of varnasrama?

 

It is an important part of varnasrama. I am happy that the discussion has

gone on here. As usual, you attack before checking out what I meant. I am

sure I am not the only one who feel like I have been unreasonably attacked

by you the last 2 weeks.

 

>Have you

> read the Bhagavad Gita?

 

Bhagavad what? Never heard of it.

 

> > I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to

> > read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to

> > discredit another member during a discussion of a completely different

> > topic.

>

> Such is the madness of the varnasrama conference and the Internet in

> general.

 

Was that an apologize? Or do you blame internet for your mistakes? Or maybe

the varnasrama development conferance is to blame?

 

> > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

> > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to

> > e.g the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take

> > place, are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

>

> Yes, Prsni dasi is certainly the person we want to find out from in

> regards to what is sane and what is not.

 

You are always polite and respectful. That is very nice about you. If you

did not know it, Prsni is the organizer of this conferance, and that was the

reason why Madhusudhani asked Prsni.

 

> Hopefully, whatever decision is

> made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would

> think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business

> is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down

> practically every project in the movement.

 

If such a discussion could be held without you throwing your accusations and

attacks out left and right, then I agree that we can all benefit from it.

But it is tough for many on this forum to associate with you as it is now.

 

> Perhaps we can start handing out condoms to the bulls.

 

I actually think that was a funny joke. I see that you can be funny, and you

have good points. But you don't seem to see that anyone else have good

points, and you don't get their jokes. How do you think you will be acepted

on this forum with such a mood?

[Guest guest]

> > At 2:44 -0800 4/25/99, COM: Jatukarnya (das) CI (Cintamani Intl, Oslo -

> > N) wrote:

> > >I have to admit that this makes me curious, too. But I can understand

> > >it if this is not the proper forum to discuss it.

>

> Yes, we can discuss what is male and what is female as relevant topics but

> not cow slaughter.

 

The way you threw out your accusation, I thought that it could be wise to

try to cool it down a little. Now things have happened anyway, and it seems

like your first accusation was pretty weakly founded.

 

> By the way, it is not the accusation of one member but

> rather the position of the Iskcon Minister of Agriculture. Doesn't that

> have any merit for you?

 

Well, ISCOWP have already submitted their comment now, and it was not

entirely negative towards New Vrindavana or the devotees you accused.

Doesn't that have any merit for you?

 

> Is cow protection not part of varnasrama?

 

It is an important part of varnasrama. I am happy that the discussion has

gone on here. As usual, you attack before checking out what I meant. I am

sure I am not the only one who feel like I have been unreasonably attacked

by you the last 2 weeks.

 

>Have you

> read the Bhagavad Gita?

 

Bhagavad what? Never heard of it.

 

> > I don't know what the proper forum is, but it certainly felt improper to

> > read such an accusation in the context of one member wanting to

> > discredit another member during a discussion of a completely different

> > topic.

>

> Such is the madness of the varnasrama conference and the Internet in

> general.

 

Was that an apologize? Or do you blame internet for your mistakes? Or maybe

the varnasrama development conferance is to blame?

 

> > Prsni Prabhu? What do you think? Should we discuss accusations of cow

> > slaughter in ISKCON here, or would you rather that discussion move to

> > e.g the cow protection conference? If such a discussion is to take

> > place, are there any ground rules to keep it somewhat sane?

>

> Yes, Prsni dasi is certainly the person we want to find out from in

> regards to what is sane and what is not.

 

You are always polite and respectful. That is very nice about you. If you

did not know it, Prsni is the organizer of this conferance, and that was the

reason why Madhusudhani asked Prsni.

 

> Hopefully, whatever decision is

> made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would

> think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business

> is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down

> practically every project in the movement.

 

If such a discussion could be held without you throwing your accusations and

attacks out left and right, then I agree that we can all benefit from it.

But it is tough for many on this forum to associate with you as it is now.

 

> Perhaps we can start handing out condoms to the bulls.

 

I actually think that was a funny joke. I see that you can be funny, and you

have good points. But you don't seem to see that anyone else have good

points, and you don't get their jokes. How do you think you will be acepted

on this forum with such a mood?

[Guest guest]

>

> > Hopefully, whatever decision is

> > made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would

> > think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business

> > is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down

> > practically every project in the movement.

 

It is an evil and a mistake. Please read teh Cow Protection Standards ( I

think

now also available on Cakra) and see how the mistakes of New Vrindavan and

others has been incorporated into a warnign for others.

 

Yes, the commercial dairy business as a business is not recommended. (I know

Hare Krsna dd has some quotes about someone who lives off selling milk goes to

hell). This lack of recommendation extends beyond the actual cow protectors,

however, and reaches out to all who are part of it, including the most

important part of it, the consumer, without whose money the entire demand

driven industry would collapse.

 

I would extend the "every project" umbrella to include all the temples who buy

milk simply on the basis of price.

 

As for alternatives, that also is covered. One is austerity, becoming a

vegan. Another is to purify the blood milk by making donations to Trust Funds

set up to benefit cow protection programs. This is actually preferable to the

vegan alternative.

[Guest guest]

>

> > Hopefully, whatever decision is

> > made we can follow it on all strings of conversation/discussion. I would

> > think that coming to an understanding of the evils of the dairy business

> > is important to varnasrama development since it has dragged down

> > practically every project in the movement.

 

It is an evil and a mistake. Please read teh Cow Protection Standards ( I

think

now also available on Cakra) and see how the mistakes of New Vrindavan and

others has been incorporated into a warnign for others.

 

Yes, the commercial dairy business as a business is not recommended. (I know

Hare Krsna dd has some quotes about someone who lives off selling milk goes to

hell). This lack of recommendation extends beyond the actual cow protectors,

however, and reaches out to all who are part of it, including the most

important part of it, the consumer, without whose money the entire demand

driven industry would collapse.

 

I would extend the "every project" umbrella to include all the temples who buy

milk simply on the basis of price.

 

As for alternatives, that also is covered. One is austerity, becoming a

vegan. Another is to purify the blood milk by making donations to Trust Funds

set up to benefit cow protection programs. This is actually preferable to the

vegan alternative.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-04-26 09:30:27 EDT, you write:

 

<< As for alternatives, that also is covered. One is austerity, becoming a

vegan. Another is to purify the blood milk by making donations to Trust

Funds

set up to benefit cow protection programs. This is actually preferable to

the

vegan alternative.>>

 

Becoming a vegan may appear to be the merciful way to go considering the

dairy industry today ( and my children have attempted this from time to time)

however since consumption of hot milk prasad has been recommended by Srila

Prabhupada to develope the finer tissues of the brain necessary for spiritual

development, giving up milk totally is not the best choice. In the west we

tend to consume more milk products than is healthy or even required for

spiritual life and justify because it is prasad. So once we have reached the

decision to be able to minimize consumption of milk either because we are

more conscious of where it comes from or because 50 year old bodies can no

longer digest the quantities of milk products we think we need, to simply end

milk consumption entirely may still not be the best route.

 

Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up

yet? And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from

protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we

buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-04-26 09:30:27 EDT, you write:

 

<< As for alternatives, that also is covered. One is austerity, becoming a

vegan. Another is to purify the blood milk by making donations to Trust

Funds

set up to benefit cow protection programs. This is actually preferable to

the

vegan alternative.>>

 

Becoming a vegan may appear to be the merciful way to go considering the

dairy industry today ( and my children have attempted this from time to time)

however since consumption of hot milk prasad has been recommended by Srila

Prabhupada to develope the finer tissues of the brain necessary for spiritual

development, giving up milk totally is not the best choice. In the west we

tend to consume more milk products than is healthy or even required for

spiritual life and justify because it is prasad. So once we have reached the

decision to be able to minimize consumption of milk either because we are

more conscious of where it comes from or because 50 year old bodies can no

longer digest the quantities of milk products we think we need, to simply end

milk consumption entirely may still not be the best route.

 

Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up

yet? And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from

protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we

buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up

> yet?

 

Just now coming. anyone with legal expertise is invited to jump in. In the

mean

time, ISCOWP is set up to take donations, as is New Vrindaban's program and I

am sure any farm with cows can. The nice thing about Trust funds is they can

be

set up so the actual donation is not touched, but the income from the trust is

used. I hope that will encourage larger donations, bequests , etc.

 

I have this fantasy of standing in front of Yamaraja, and as he is weighing

the

pious and impious credits (me hoping nervously in the meantime I have a Get Out

Of Samsara Free card left , by his mercy, from Srila Prabhupada), being able

to point out to him (Yamaraja) that even though I have left my body, my pious

credits continue to accrue due to the income being generated by my still

working

donation in th eTrust.

 

Another form of Trust is not a general Trust set up by the cow Protection

Program

itself, but an individual fund set up by an individual donor. Like a

Charitable

Remainder Trust, for example, wherein a donor places an asset in the Trust,

but continues to recieve the income from the asset for a specified period of

time

or until leaving the body, at which time the asset passes to the beneficiary.

The donor gets full credit taxwise for the donation at the time of the gift,

but

still gets the income. Also, if the gift is highly appreciated, the neither

the donor nor the beneficiary is liable for capital gains tax. This type of

trust has obvious tax advantages for the donor.

 

 

 

> And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from

> protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we

> buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd

 

At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

cost.

At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention of

devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a

cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro

rating

the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an

economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings.

 

A calf on average will live 12 years x $1,000 = $12,000. If in the lactation

the cow has average 30 lbs a day for 300 days and 10 lbs a day for another 900

days, that is 18,000 lbs total which equals about 2,250 gallons.

 

Lifetime support of calf $12,000

Lifetime support of cow $12,000

---------

$24,000

 

Divided by 2,250 gallons, that is a little over $10 per gallon, so use $10

per

gallon as a rule of thumb. Of course, many variables enter into this,

including climate, level of care, so the actual cost can vary, so the $10

figure is not written in stone.

 

Realistically, you have to do what you can afford. If every devotee and life

member were giving even just $1 per gallon of milk or pound of butter

consumed,

over a period of time it would generate a substantial amount of capital and

would

also serve as an inspiration to larger donors. It is the example of the

sparrow

tossing a pebble in the ocean for Lord Ramacandra.

 

Even a quarter a gallon. This cow protection is not just some mundane scheme.

It has to do also with prayer, consciousness, and a nonexploitaive mentality.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up

> yet?

 

Just now coming. anyone with legal expertise is invited to jump in. In the

mean

time, ISCOWP is set up to take donations, as is New Vrindaban's program and I

am sure any farm with cows can. The nice thing about Trust funds is they can

be

set up so the actual donation is not touched, but the income from the trust is

used. I hope that will encourage larger donations, bequests , etc.

 

I have this fantasy of standing in front of Yamaraja, and as he is weighing

the

pious and impious credits (me hoping nervously in the meantime I have a Get Out

Of Samsara Free card left , by his mercy, from Srila Prabhupada), being able

to point out to him (Yamaraja) that even though I have left my body, my pious

credits continue to accrue due to the income being generated by my still

working

donation in th eTrust.

 

Another form of Trust is not a general Trust set up by the cow Protection

Program

itself, but an individual fund set up by an individual donor. Like a

Charitable

Remainder Trust, for example, wherein a donor places an asset in the Trust,

but continues to recieve the income from the asset for a specified period of

time

or until leaving the body, at which time the asset passes to the beneficiary.

The donor gets full credit taxwise for the donation at the time of the gift,

but

still gets the income. Also, if the gift is highly appreciated, the neither

the donor nor the beneficiary is liable for capital gains tax. This type of

trust has obvious tax advantages for the donor.

 

 

 

> And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from

> protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we

> buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd

 

At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

cost.

At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention of

devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a

cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro

rating

the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an

economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings.

 

A calf on average will live 12 years x $1,000 = $12,000. If in the lactation

the cow has average 30 lbs a day for 300 days and 10 lbs a day for another 900

days, that is 18,000 lbs total which equals about 2,250 gallons.

 

Lifetime support of calf $12,000

Lifetime support of cow $12,000

---------

$24,000

 

Divided by 2,250 gallons, that is a little over $10 per gallon, so use $10

per

gallon as a rule of thumb. Of course, many variables enter into this,

including climate, level of care, so the actual cost can vary, so the $10

figure is not written in stone.

 

Realistically, you have to do what you can afford. If every devotee and life

member were giving even just $1 per gallon of milk or pound of butter

consumed,

over a period of time it would generate a substantial amount of capital and

would

also serve as an inspiration to larger donors. It is the example of the

sparrow

tossing a pebble in the ocean for Lord Ramacandra.

 

Even a quarter a gallon. This cow protection is not just some mundane scheme.

It has to do also with prayer, consciousness, and a nonexploitaive mentality.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Apr 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

>

> > And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from

> > protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk

we

> > buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd

>

> At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

> minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

> cost.

> At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention

of

> devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to

maintain a

> cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro

> rating

> the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an

> economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings.

 

 

 

I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more.

 

Some things I know:

 

An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year.

This is about 2125 gallons of milk.

An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

 

Some questions:

 

What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

production, butter fat production and care, etc.

 

 

What is the average milk production life of an American cow?

What is the average life of an American cow?

What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow?

What is the average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs.

per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is

worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live

after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

 

If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon.

 

If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce

about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted?

 

How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year.

 

I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and

cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but

if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

Thank you very much.

 

Sincerely,

 

Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

On 28 Apr 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

>

> > And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from

> > protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk

we

> > buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd

>

> At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

> minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

> cost.

> At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention

of

> devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to

maintain a

> cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro

> rating

> the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an

> economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings.

 

 

 

I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more.

 

Some things I know:

 

An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year.

This is about 2125 gallons of milk.

An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

 

Some questions:

 

What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

production, butter fat production and care, etc.

 

 

What is the average milk production life of an American cow?

What is the average life of an American cow?

What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow?

What is the average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs.

per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is

worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live

after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

 

If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon.

 

If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce

about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted?

 

How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year.

 

I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and

cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but

if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

Thank you very much.

 

Sincerely,

 

Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

> > > Kanti dd:

And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from protected

cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we buy that is

not from protected cows?

> >

> > Madhava Gosh wrote:

At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

cost. At that level, some cows are dying unnecessarily and draw the

attention of devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year

to maintain a cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector

and also pro rating the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this

level, it creates an economic base for a devotee community, and a way to

expand land holdings.

 

 Janesvara dasa

I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more.

Some things I know: An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per

year. This is about 2125 gallons of milk. An average gallon of U.S. milk costs

$2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

Some questions:

What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

production, butter fat production and care, etc. What is the average milk

production life of an American cow?

 

Comment:

What is the average life of an American cow?

4 years productive life in commercial dairy herd (6yrs.) varies for low

commercial herds depending on degree they allow the big buck to regulate their

herd number.

 

 Janesvara dasa

 What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow? What is the

average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

Comment:

This is not a comparable situation. For example, we have 3 milking here ages

are; Nadia 17, Sarasvati 5 and Virarajanadi 5. Nadia has been milking 2 years

now and averages 20 lbs/day the other two have been milking 2 months and have

not reached their peak yet and they are at about 45 lbs/day. Our cows do not

usually live past 20, although our oldest cow, Rasalila is now 22. She is not

producing, is in good health but with so many animals and the need to keep our

population increase low there is no need to have her any others on the

production line.

 

 Janesvara dasa

 If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged

12,000 lbs. per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing

years. Which is worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer

do they live after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

>

Comment:

Cows unless ill are capable to produce up until death. I can not speak about

the other farms but in New Talavan (cows arrived June 1974) we have only a few

reaching 20 years, but then they are not pampered as much as they should be.

We do not have severe winters (no snow, with mild freezes) there is no barn

for them and they live outside year round. With a barn and improved pastures

we would probably see animals close to 30. Our production is around 12,000 lbs

6% b.f. From a herd of animals who are of mixed ancestry with Jersey blood

predominating.

 

The cost of maintenance will increase as the cow enters old age, she has a

body that is falling apart. Same as with people.

 

 Janesvara dasa

If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon. If the average annual

maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce about $4,000 worth of

milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted? How much do ISKCON devotees

pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

Comment:

In New Talavan we have 3 cows milking and a herd of 128. Using your figures 3

x $4,080= $12,240.

Expenses

70 acs. Winter pasture $4,000.00 (seed and fertilizer)

300 bales (1600#) $4,500.00

Grain $3,900.00

$12,900.00

 

Note I have not included medical, summer pasture, machinery, personnel etc…

 

Also it is not possible to sell all that milk 1500 gallons/yr or 28.9/week, if

I give it away people will only take 18/week whole milk un-pasteurized. It is

easier to drink blood milk from the corner grocery (laced with all kinds of

nice things), they want pasteurized and low fat. That takes additional time

and machinery to accomplish (which I would have to add to my expenses). Can

not even meet cost of feeding animals at 18 G/wk (grain, hay & pasture) what

to speak of other things. 18 x 2.72 x 52= $2,545.92/yr.

 

The problem is there is no market for milk here even if I wanted to make it a

business. So we sell a little now and then as there is interest and with this

money and that will cover salt blocks and other odds and ends. This only as a

convenience to those that come and ask for milk.

 

 Janesvara dasa

If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year. I am

likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and cow

protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but if

the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

Comment:

Yes, this is what I see one of the purpose of this conference, to inform

others about the cows. Now if you can promote this slogan ‘Buy Vaisnava’ then

at least in your area it may be possible to correct this situation.

 

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

> > > Kanti dd:

And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from protected

cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we buy that is

not from protected cows?

> >

> > Madhava Gosh wrote:

At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

cost. At that level, some cows are dying unnecessarily and draw the

attention of devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year

to maintain a cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector

and also pro rating the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this

level, it creates an economic base for a devotee community, and a way to

expand land holdings.

 

 Janesvara dasa

I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more.

Some things I know: An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per

year. This is about 2125 gallons of milk. An average gallon of U.S. milk costs

$2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

Some questions:

What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

production, butter fat production and care, etc. What is the average milk

production life of an American cow?

 

Comment:

What is the average life of an American cow?

4 years productive life in commercial dairy herd (6yrs.) varies for low

commercial herds depending on degree they allow the big buck to regulate their

herd number.

 

 Janesvara dasa

 What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow? What is the

average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

Comment:

This is not a comparable situation. For example, we have 3 milking here ages

are; Nadia 17, Sarasvati 5 and Virarajanadi 5. Nadia has been milking 2 years

now and averages 20 lbs/day the other two have been milking 2 months and have

not reached their peak yet and they are at about 45 lbs/day. Our cows do not

usually live past 20, although our oldest cow, Rasalila is now 22. She is not

producing, is in good health but with so many animals and the need to keep our

population increase low there is no need to have her any others on the

production line.

 

 Janesvara dasa

 If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged

12,000 lbs. per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing

years. Which is worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer

do they live after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

>

Comment:

Cows unless ill are capable to produce up until death. I can not speak about

the other farms but in New Talavan (cows arrived June 1974) we have only a few

reaching 20 years, but then they are not pampered as much as they should be.

We do not have severe winters (no snow, with mild freezes) there is no barn

for them and they live outside year round. With a barn and improved pastures

we would probably see animals close to 30. Our production is around 12,000 lbs

6% b.f. From a herd of animals who are of mixed ancestry with Jersey blood

predominating.

 

The cost of maintenance will increase as the cow enters old age, she has a

body that is falling apart. Same as with people.

 

 Janesvara dasa

If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon. If the average annual

maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce about $4,000 worth of

milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted? How much do ISKCON devotees

pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

Comment:

In New Talavan we have 3 cows milking and a herd of 128. Using your figures 3

x $4,080= $12,240.

Expenses

70 acs. Winter pasture $4,000.00 (seed and fertilizer)

300 bales (1600#) $4,500.00

Grain $3,900.00

$12,900.00

 

Note I have not included medical, summer pasture, machinery, personnel etc…

 

Also it is not possible to sell all that milk 1500 gallons/yr or 28.9/week, if

I give it away people will only take 18/week whole milk un-pasteurized. It is

easier to drink blood milk from the corner grocery (laced with all kinds of

nice things), they want pasteurized and low fat. That takes additional time

and machinery to accomplish (which I would have to add to my expenses). Can

not even meet cost of feeding animals at 18 G/wk (grain, hay & pasture) what

to speak of other things. 18 x 2.72 x 52= $2,545.92/yr.

 

The problem is there is no market for milk here even if I wanted to make it a

business. So we sell a little now and then as there is interest and with this

money and that will cover salt blocks and other odds and ends. This only as a

convenience to those that come and ask for milk.

 

 Janesvara dasa

If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year. I am

likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and cow

protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but if

the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

Comment:

Yes, this is what I see one of the purpose of this conference, to inform

others about the cows. Now if you can promote this slogan ‘Buy Vaisnava’ then

at least in your area it may be possible to correct this situation.

 

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

>

>

> An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year.

> This is about 2125 gallons of milk.

> An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

>

 

$2.72 is a retail price. The farmer gets between $10 to $16 a hundred weight

which is closer to $1 per gallon. The $2.72 includes a lot of value added in

the

form of transportation, processing and bottling, and retail markup.

 

The 17,000 figure is based on a yearly freshening, which means every year you

have another calf, also, only top producers are keep in the milking string,

with subpar producers culled. As a cow may produce 4-5 calves in a factory

farm

setting, half are female so that means only the top 50% are kept as

replacements.

 

Also, that is with Holsteins bred to produce high volumnes under factory farm

conditions, a bred not well suited for VAD purposes. The genetic pool is

selected for high production, but one by product is a weak oxen, that dies

rather easily. Kirtananada went the Holstein route when he went commercial,

one

byproduct of which is the stories of why if birth rate is 50/50 male /female,

why was the herd disportionately female, which it was and is. The weaker

males

dying more easily is a contributing factor.

 

>

> Some questions:

>

> What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

> proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

> national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

> production, butter fat production and care, etc.

>

 

When they were fresh. After the first year, that production falls off

dramatically. As a result of that keeping the herd average high mentality, so

many calves were fed for the rest of their lives. Incidentally, we had a cow

at

NV, Himavati, who gave 150 lbs in one day. That is about 18 gallons. It was

also common to have cows give give in excess of 20, 000 lbs in a lactation.

 

>

> What is the average milk production life of an American cow?

 

There are bred young, then bred yearly until production falls, typically 4-6

years, then culled by age of about 8. The early pregnacies and push for high

production wears out their bodies.

 

>

> What is the average life of an American cow?

 

For an oxen who escapes veal, about 2 years. Maybe 8 for a milker.

 

>

> What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow?

> What is the average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

I would prefer to answer in the form of what should be the production life and

what should be the average. For the puposes of the Cow Standards, our

thinking

was more that ideally you would have a cow bred to calf at 3 years, with a

lactation running 3-4 years, then another calf, and another long lactation.

 

A homestead breed cow will give in excess of 10,000 pounds (there is a lot of

individual variation) the first year, and 3000-5000 a year for some years

after. A holstein is lucky to give 2000 lbs the second year, so unsuitable

for

the small farm scenario necessary for complete VAD.

 

>

>

> If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs.

> per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is

> worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live

> after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

 

That would require yearly freshening and 10 calves in a lifetime, all of which

would need to be fed for their lifetimes.. They can live as much as 20 years.

Considering that some calves die young, some disease, some accidents, for

the

Standards we took 12 years as an estimate of the average expected life of a

calf,

though a strong case can be made for longer.

 

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support

60. Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a loss.

The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor cowherds

get

left with a large amount of cows, little income or community support which

leads

to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of it, they get accused

of

being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored for staying and minimising

the neglect.

 

Some hard, extremely painful times.

 

 

>

>

> If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

> gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon.

 

Again, that is retail. At $1 a gallon that is $1500.

 

>

> If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce

> about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted?

 

Also, to push production, much of that extra $500 goes into expensive grain

and

protein supplements necessary to push the production.

 

>

>

> How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

That is not easy to answer. At NV, 100% of production goes directdy to temple

kitchen, and no money is exchanged. Feed is bought, and devotees donate

labor.

 

>

>

> If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

> protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year.

 

The $1 per gallon, in my mind, is more of an austerity that devotees would

perform to purify the blood milk they buy. By making that contribution to cow

protection, they are acknolwedging that the ugrakarmic milk is bad, and their

desire to protect cows, while at the same time being practically able to live

their lives as they have to in current circumstances. Personally, I buy blood

milk. For purification, I graze several cows on my land at no charge to the

Cow

Protection program, plus donate time to further cow protection. I feel at

this

point that is better than freshening a cow for my own use.

 

>

>

> I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and

> cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but

> if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

 

Key thing to remember. Since the date you are so fond of quoting that Srila

Prabhupada gave teh order for VAD, in the US, dairy farms have gone from

600,000

to only 170,000 today. That is an incredibly competitive environment, where

even

karmis who salughtered their cull cows and oxen couldn't survive. I hope I

have

addressed some of your questions.

 

>

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Janesvara dasa