My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

December 19, 2001

Greetings to all,

I have been going through the recent learned discussions

on Samadhi & Advaita with great interest.

I agree that attainment of Nirvikalpa Samadhi has been

hyped up as the be-all and end-all of Advaita. As the

statement by Sankara beautifully says - we come out of

sleep & samadhi ignorant. There is a story of a yogi

who before beginning to meditate asked his disciple to

bring him some water to drink. Before the disciple

could bring water the yogi went into Nirvikalpa samadhi.

After 3 days when he came to normal consciousness, the

first reaction he had was of anger, since his disciple

had not yet brought him the water he had asked!! So much

for the transformative power of samadhi.

A few gurus do not give much importance to samadhi. No

doubt it is a great and profound state. Sri Aurobindo

for example doesnt consider samadhi to be necessary.

He holds that it is more important to retain

consciousness while exploring higher planes. This means

that samadhi is nothing but falling into unconsciousness

while in higher planes. My samadhi might be in the

mental plane, while anothers may be in the ananda plane

and so on depending upon our evolvement. Sadhu Santinatha

in his autobiography "Experiences of a Truth Seeker",

very logically debunks the great importance of

Nirvikalpa Samadhi as the ultimate goal to be achieved.

I feel this question is largely academic. Each guru

holds his own version/path to be valid and the rest

either false or at best a partial expression of the

truth. Sankara holds his advaita to be true, Ramanuja

holds his visistadvaita to be true, Aurobindo says his

Integral yoga is true, Vivekananda holds his version of

Vedanta to be valid, Ramana says his atmavichara is the

ultimate and so on. If the basic experience of all is the

same why then the divergent opinions? A person fed up

of all these diverse arguments may try J.Krishnamurti,

who in turn considers the rest to be silly (which again

implies that he is right and the others are wrong).

Whom to follow and whom to believe? An openminded,

intelligent person, not blinded by blind faith will

certainly feel confused.

Might it not be that no single man till now has realised or

expressed the ULTIMATE TRUTH ? Truth or Reality is

Infinite and cannot be contained in any one single

tradition/person. Does it not look as if a Human being is

energy trapped/manifested in the field of the solar

system. The reason why he has manifested or is trapped

is unknown. It may be due to ignorance, or it may be

an opportunity to evolve etc. Does Liberation or Moksha

mean being free of the necessity to take birth/manifest

again in the Earth/solar system ? Maybe the liberated

energy moves on to other dimensions/systems to evolve

further. We can not even imagine what levels are there.

Might liberation/moksha/realisation/sahaja samadhi/

enlightenment all mean that the individual spark of

energy realises its connectedness with the cosmic

whole and thus frees itself of the necessity to

manifest again in earth (by intensifying its energy

more than the pull of the earth, i.e, in a way achieving

escape velocity!). Maybe this is what the great ones have

achieved, and maybe none has reached the state of

Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience etc. Of course

reaching the state of being free from the pull of the

earth itself is a great achievement!!!

Any comments/refutations/clarifications?

amaresh

December 19, 2001

The subject line itself indicates something, "My thoughts on Samadhi &

Advaita".

True Samadhi transcends all thoughts and the feeling of "my thoughts", etc.

Acquired knowledge, no matter how sublime, and from what sacred scripture or

tradition, is completely and wholly foreign to the Self.

The means used to indicate the Self are not the Self.

Self-state is utterly pure, indifferent, outside the boundaries of intellect

and argumentation.

The goal for an aspirant is Self-Realization, not scripture-realization.

What this or that Guru says about Samadhi or this or that state may be

important. But ultimately the question comes to you. What do you say? What

is your truth? What is your understanding? What is your experience? Do you

know the Self?

To Know the Self, One must Recognize the Self in One's Own Being. There is

no other way.

The ancients called it Sat-Chit-Ananda. Nityam, Poornum.

Eternal and Whole Existence in unbroken and perpetual enjoyment of Its Own

Nature.

Love to all

Harsha

amaresh [agni]

Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:37 PM

advaitin

My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

Greetings to all,

I have been going through the recent learned discussions

on Samadhi & Advaita with great interest.

I agree that attainment of Nirvikalpa Samadhi has been

hyped up as the be-all and end-all of Advaita. As the

statement by Sankara beautifully says - we come out of

sleep & samadhi ignorant. There is a story of a yogi

who before beginning to meditate asked his disciple to

bring him some water to drink. Before the disciple

could bring water the yogi went into Nirvikalpa samadhi.

After 3 days when he came to normal consciousness, the

first reaction he had was of anger, since his disciple

had not yet brought him the water he had asked!! So much

for the transformative power of samadhi.

A few gurus do not give much importance to samadhi. No

doubt it is a great and profound state. Sri Aurobindo

for example doesnt consider samadhi to be necessary.

He holds that it is more important to retain

consciousness while exploring higher planes. This means

that samadhi is nothing but falling into unconsciousness

while in higher planes. My samadhi might be in the

mental plane, while anothers may be in the ananda plane

and so on depending upon our evolvement. Sadhu Santinatha

in his autobiography "Experiences of a Truth Seeker",

very logically debunks the great importance of

Nirvikalpa Samadhi as the ultimate goal to be achieved.

I feel this question is largely academic. Each guru

holds his own version/path to be valid and the rest

either false or at best a partial expression of the

truth. Sankara holds his advaita to be true, Ramanuja

holds his visistadvaita to be true, Aurobindo says his

Integral yoga is true, Vivekananda holds his version of

Vedanta to be valid, Ramana says his atmavichara is the

ultimate and so on. If the basic experience of all is the

same why then the divergent opinions? A person fed up

of all these diverse arguments may try J.Krishnamurti,

who in turn considers the rest to be silly (which again

implies that he is right and the others are wrong).

Whom to follow and whom to believe? An openminded,

intelligent person, not blinded by blind faith will

certainly feel confused.

Might it not be that no single man till now has realised or

expressed the ULTIMATE TRUTH ? Truth or Reality is

Infinite and cannot be contained in any one single

tradition/person. Does it not look as if a Human being is

energy trapped/manifested in the field of the solar

system. The reason why he has manifested or is trapped

is unknown. It may be due to ignorance, or it may be

an opportunity to evolve etc. Does Liberation or Moksha

mean being free of the necessity to take birth/manifest

again in the Earth/solar system ? Maybe the liberated

energy moves on to other dimensions/systems to evolve

further. We can not even imagine what levels are there.

Might liberation/moksha/realisation/sahaja samadhi/

enlightenment all mean that the individual spark of

energy realises its connectedness with the cosmic

whole and thus frees itself of the necessity to

manifest again in earth (by intensifying its energy

more than the pull of the earth, i.e, in a way achieving

escape velocity!). Maybe this is what the great ones have

achieved, and maybe none has reached the state of

Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience etc. Of course

reaching the state of being free from the pull of the

earth itself is a great achievement!!!

Any comments/refutations/clarifications?

amaresh

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

Your use of is subject to

December 19, 2001

Namaste Harsha

It is true that the Atma is beyond thoughts, mind or body etc.... but the

means to know it is through the scriptures alone. I believe this has been

adequately discussed by Sadanandaji in his many posts regarding shaastra

pramana as the only means to know the self. Even Atmachaitanya has recently

discussed about this point.

But there seems to be another school of thought which says that Nirvikalpa

Samadhi is also another means of knowledge to know the Atma to be of the

nature of Sat-Chit-Ananda. I think it will be good to discuss how any

experience can deliver this knowledge of Atma being Satchitananda. What

happens in that state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi that makes the experiencer

conclude that Atma is indeed Satchitananda swarupam? Perhaps members who

have experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi can share their experience with us.

Thank you.

Kathi

>

> Harsha [sMTP:harsha-hkl]

> Thursday, December 20, 2001 11:51 AM

> advaitin

> RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> The subject line itself indicates something, "My thoughts on Samadhi &

> Advaita".

>

> True Samadhi transcends all thoughts and the feeling of "my thoughts",

> etc.

>

> Acquired knowledge, no matter how sublime, and from what sacred scripture

> or

> tradition, is completely and wholly foreign to the Self.

>

> The means used to indicate the Self are not the Self.

>

> Self-state is utterly pure, indifferent, outside the boundaries of

> intellect

> and argumentation.

>

> The goal for an aspirant is Self-Realization, not scripture-realization.

>

> What this or that Guru says about Samadhi or this or that state may be

> important. But ultimately the question comes to you. What do you say? What

> is your truth? What is your understanding? What is your experience? Do you

> know the Self?

>

> To Know the Self, One must Recognize the Self in One's Own Being. There is

> no other way.

>

> The ancients called it Sat-Chit-Ananda. Nityam, Poornum.

>

> Eternal and Whole Existence in unbroken and perpetual enjoyment of Its Own

> Nature.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

>

> amaresh [agni]

> Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:37 PM

> advaitin

> My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> Greetings to all,

>

> I have been going through the recent learned discussions

> on Samadhi & Advaita with great interest.

>

> I agree that attainment of Nirvikalpa Samadhi has been

> hyped up as the be-all and end-all of Advaita. As the

> statement by Sankara beautifully says - we come out of

> sleep & samadhi ignorant. There is a story of a yogi

> who before beginning to meditate asked his disciple to

> bring him some water to drink. Before the disciple

> could bring water the yogi went into Nirvikalpa samadhi.

> After 3 days when he came to normal consciousness, the

> first reaction he had was of anger, since his disciple

> had not yet brought him the water he had asked!! So much

> for the transformative power of samadhi.

>

> A few gurus do not give much importance to samadhi. No

> doubt it is a great and profound state. Sri Aurobindo

> for example doesnt consider samadhi to be necessary.

> He holds that it is more important to retain

> consciousness while exploring higher planes. This means

> that samadhi is nothing but falling into unconsciousness

> while in higher planes. My samadhi might be in the

> mental plane, while anothers may be in the ananda plane

> and so on depending upon our evolvement. Sadhu Santinatha

> in his autobiography "Experiences of a Truth Seeker",

> very logically debunks the great importance of

> Nirvikalpa Samadhi as the ultimate goal to be achieved.

>

> I feel this question is largely academic. Each guru

> holds his own version/path to be valid and the rest

> either false or at best a partial expression of the

> truth. Sankara holds his advaita to be true, Ramanuja

> holds his visistadvaita to be true, Aurobindo says his

> Integral yoga is true, Vivekananda holds his version of

> Vedanta to be valid, Ramana says his atmavichara is the

> ultimate and so on. If the basic experience of all is the

> same why then the divergent opinions? A person fed up

> of all these diverse arguments may try J.Krishnamurti,

> who in turn considers the rest to be silly (which again

> implies that he is right and the others are wrong).

> Whom to follow and whom to believe? An openminded,

> intelligent person, not blinded by blind faith will

> certainly feel confused.

>

> Might it not be that no single man till now has realised or

> expressed the ULTIMATE TRUTH ? Truth or Reality is

> Infinite and cannot be contained in any one single

> tradition/person. Does it not look as if a Human being is

> energy trapped/manifested in the field of the solar

> system. The reason why he has manifested or is trapped

> is unknown. It may be due to ignorance, or it may be

> an opportunity to evolve etc. Does Liberation or Moksha

> mean being free of the necessity to take birth/manifest

> again in the Earth/solar system ? Maybe the liberated

> energy moves on to other dimensions/systems to evolve

> further. We can not even imagine what levels are there.

> Might liberation/moksha/realisation/sahaja samadhi/

> enlightenment all mean that the individual spark of

> energy realises its connectedness with the cosmic

> whole and thus frees itself of the necessity to

> manifest again in earth (by intensifying its energy

> more than the pull of the earth, i.e, in a way achieving

> escape velocity!). Maybe this is what the great ones have

> achieved, and maybe none has reached the state of

> Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience etc. Of course

> reaching the state of being free from the pull of the

> earth itself is a great achievement!!!

>

> Any comments/refutations/clarifications?

>

> amaresh

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 20, 2001

Namaste,

The quotations are slef-explanatory.

Regards,

Sunder

The Mountain Path

Vol. 1 - APRIL 1964 - No. 2

Samadhi

By N. R. Krishnamurti

The enquiry 'Who am I?' plunges the mind into the Self. This is not

the nescience of sleep. One can abide as the Self in Nirvikalpa

Samadhi without the body-world dream or in Sahaja Samadhi with this

dream simultaneously witnessed. If the Lord Ramana-Dakshinamurti chose

to declare the Supreme State by silence only, it is not for us to

attempt a definition in words. It is the part of Wisdom to remain

still, as our Lord Sri Ramana ordained.

---

http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/m_path/1964_4/dilip.htm

How I Came to the Maharshi - IV

By Dilip Kumar Roy

Dilip Kumar Roy is known throughout India as a famous singer, apart

from which he himself composes

songs and writes poems, especially devotional songs and poems to Sri

Krishna. For many years he was an

inmate of Sri Aurobindo Ashram at Pondicherry. Now he is the head of

the Hari Krishna Mandir at Poona

where, aided by his foremost disciple, Indira Devi, he acts as guru to

the many Krishna bhaktas who

come. This account of his visit to the Maharshi is taken on his own

invitation, from his book The Flute Calls

Still, reviewed elsewhere in this issue.

It happened in 1945, I think. I was still living as an inmate of Sri

Aurobindo Ashram, even though I had

come to feel a growing sense of isolation and begun to surmise that I

was a misfit there. My sadness and

sense of dereliction only deepened with time till what little peace I

had left me completely and I felt all but

stranded. But I need not go into the why and wherefore of it all; I

would plunge straight into what keeps

me company as one of the most unforgettable experiences I have ever

had. It does, as it was a landmark in

my life.

After having been for weeks in the grip of a deep gloom, I … wrote

straight to Sri Aurobindo. He wrote back

at once giving me the needed permission, which I deeply appreciated.

I took the train to Tiruvannamalai where Ramana Maharshi lived. But as

the train rolled on I felt a deep and

growing malaise ... How could I win the needed peace at the feet of

one who was not my Guru when I

could not attain it at the feet of my revered Guru, Sri Aurobindo,

whose wisdom and greatness my heart

had never once questioned.

Well, I alighted at the station in a mixed frame of mind...

But it was too late then, for I was already at the gates of

Ramanashram. How could I return now, after

having crossed the Rubicon? Besides, I was driven by an irresistible

urge to meet in the flesh the great Yogi

who — unlike my own preceptor, Sri Aurobindo — was available to all at

all hours. And, to crown all, I

wanted to test the Maharshi for myself and see whether he, with his

magic compassion, could lift me out of

the deep slough I had landed in.

But he did, and against my worst prognostications at that, so that I

could not possibly explain it away as a

figment of autosuggestion. I mean — if there were any auto-suggestion

here it could only be against and

not in favour of my receiving the goods. But, as the Lord's ways are

not ours, I won an experience I could

never even have dreamed of. So listen with bated breath.

I can still recapture the thrill of the apocalyptic experience that

came to me to charm away as it were the

obstinate gloom which had settled on my chest like an incubus. But,

alas, words seem so utterly pale and

banal the moment you want to describe an authentic spiritual

experience which is vivid, throbbing and

intense. Still I must try.

I entered a trifle diffidently a big, bare hall where the Maharshi

reclined morning and evening among his

devotees and the visitors who happened to call. Accessible to all, the

great saint sat on a divan looking

straight in front at nothing at all. I was told he lived thus all the

time, in sahaja samadhi, that is a constant

super-conscious state. I was indeed fascinated by what I saw, but I

will not even attempt to portray with

words how overwhelmed I was (and why) by what met my eyes. For what is

it after all that I saw? Just a

thin, half-naked man, sitting silently, gazing with glazed eyes at the

window. Yet there was something in

him that spoke to me — an indefinable beauty of poise and a plenitude

that cannot be limmed with words. I

wrote afterwards a poem1 on him that may give a better idea, but I

must not get ahead of my story.

I touched his feet and then, without a word, sat down near him on the

floor and meditated, my heart

aheave with a strange exaltation which deepened by and by into an

ineffable peace which beggars

description. My monthold gloom and misgivings, doubts and

questionings, melted away like mist before

sunrise, till I felt I was being cradled on the crest of a flawless

peace in a vast ocean of felicity and light. I

have to use superlatives here as I am trying to describe as best I can

my experience of an ineffable bliss

and peace which lasted for hours and hours. I can well remember how

deep was the gratefulness I felt

towards the Maharshi on that sleepless and restful night as I

reclined, bathed in peace, in an easy chair

under the stars at which I gazed and gazed in an ecstasy of tears. And

I recalled a pregnant saying of his:

"Just be. All is in you. Only a veil stands between. You have only to

rend the veil and then, well, just be."

I had found this favourite remark of his rather cryptic heretofore.

But in that moment I understood for the

first time and wrote a poem in homage to the Maharshi.1

_________________________

1 - This poem has already been published in The Mountain Path of April

1964, p, 87

To Sri Ramana Maharshi*

By Dilip Kumar Roy

A face that's still, like silent cloudless blue,

And eyes that even as stars drip holiness

Won from a source beyond our ken — a new

Messenger Thou, in this age, of a grace

Men ache for and, withal, are terrified

When it shines near — wan puppets of fool senses,

That would disown the soul's faith — even deride

The Peace they crave yet fear — for Life's false dances

And siren rhythms beguile the multitude!

And there they woo Time's whirls and wheels — for what?

At best a reeling moment — an interlude

Of half-lit laughter dogged by tears — of Fate

O Son of Dawn! who only knowest the Sun,

And through His eye of Light see'st all that lies

Revealed — a flawless plenitude which none

But Son's own children ever might surmise

For only the chosen few so far have won

The Truth that shines beyond world's wounds and cries

Who see Thee throned in high dominion

Of Self's invulnerable Verities.

_____________

* From the Golden Jubilee Souvenir, Sri Ramanasramam, 1946.

advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote:

> Namaste Harsha

December 20, 2001

Namaste Sunder-ji

Thanks for the quotes. Nirvikalpa Samadhi must be a wonderful experience

from the way I see in the quotes. But the question is how is it possible

for a person to know the Self to be Satchitananda swarupam in Nirvikalpa

Samadhi. What happens in that state? If that mindless state confers

knowledge, then who is the knower?

>

> sunderh [sMTP:sunderh]

> Friday, December 21, 2001 12:47 AM

> advaitin

> Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> Namaste,

>

> The quotations are slef-explanatory.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

>

> The Mountain Path

> Vol. 1 - APRIL 1964 - No. 2

>

> Samadhi

> By N. R. Krishnamurti

>

> The enquiry 'Who am I?' plunges the mind into the Self. This is not

> the nescience of sleep. One can abide as the Self in Nirvikalpa

> Samadhi without the body-world dream or in Sahaja Samadhi with this

> dream simultaneously witnessed. If the Lord Ramana-Dakshinamurti chose

> to declare the Supreme State by silence only, it is not for us to

> attempt a definition in words. It is the part of Wisdom to remain

> still, as our Lord Sri Ramana ordained.

> ---

>

> http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/m_path/1964_4/dilip.htm

>

> How I Came to the Maharshi - IV

> By Dilip Kumar Roy

>

> Dilip Kumar Roy is known throughout India as a famous singer, apart

> from which he himself composes

> songs and writes poems, especially devotional songs and poems to Sri

> Krishna. For many years he was an

> inmate of Sri Aurobindo Ashram at Pondicherry. Now he is the head of

> the Hari Krishna Mandir at Poona

> where, aided by his foremost disciple, Indira Devi, he acts as guru to

> the many Krishna bhaktas who

> come. This account of his visit to the Maharshi is taken on his own

> invitation, from his book The Flute Calls

> Still, reviewed elsewhere in this issue.

>

> It happened in 1945, I think. I was still living as an inmate of Sri

> Aurobindo Ashram, even though I had

> come to feel a growing sense of isolation and begun to surmise that I

> was a misfit there. My sadness and

> sense of dereliction only deepened with time till what little peace I

> had left me completely and I felt all but

> stranded. But I need not go into the why and wherefore of it all; I

> would plunge straight into what keeps

> me company as one of the most unforgettable experiences I have ever

> had. It does, as it was a landmark in

> my life.

>

> After having been for weeks in the grip of a deep gloom, I ... wrote

> straight to Sri Aurobindo. He wrote back

> at once giving me the needed permission, which I deeply appreciated.

>

> I took the train to Tiruvannamalai where Ramana Maharshi lived. But as

> the train rolled on I felt a deep and

> growing malaise ... How could I win the needed peace at the feet of

> one who was not my Guru when I

> could not attain it at the feet of my revered Guru, Sri Aurobindo,

> whose wisdom and greatness my heart

> had never once questioned.

>

> Well, I alighted at the station in a mixed frame of mind...

>

> But it was too late then, for I was already at the gates of

> Ramanashram. How could I return now, after

> having crossed the Rubicon? Besides, I was driven by an irresistible

> urge to meet in the flesh the great Yogi

> who - unlike my own preceptor, Sri Aurobindo - was available to all at

> all hours. And, to crown all, I

> wanted to test the Maharshi for myself and see whether he, with his

> magic compassion, could lift me out of

> the deep slough I had landed in.

>

> But he did, and against my worst prognostications at that, so that I

> could not possibly explain it away as a

> figment of autosuggestion. I mean - if there were any auto-suggestion

> here it could only be against and

> not in favour of my receiving the goods. But, as the Lord's ways are

> not ours, I won an experience I could

> never even have dreamed of. So listen with bated breath.

>

> I can still recapture the thrill of the apocalyptic experience that

> came to me to charm away as it were the

> obstinate gloom which had settled on my chest like an incubus. But,

> alas, words seem so utterly pale and

> banal the moment you want to describe an authentic spiritual

> experience which is vivid, throbbing and

> intense. Still I must try.

>

> I entered a trifle diffidently a big, bare hall where the Maharshi

> reclined morning and evening among his

> devotees and the visitors who happened to call. Accessible to all, the

> great saint sat on a divan looking

> straight in front at nothing at all. I was told he lived thus all the

> time, in sahaja samadhi, that is a constant

> super-conscious state. I was indeed fascinated by what I saw, but I

> will not even attempt to portray with

> words how overwhelmed I was (and why) by what met my eyes. For what is

> it after all that I saw? Just a

> thin, half-naked man, sitting silently, gazing with glazed eyes at the

> window. Yet there was something in

> him that spoke to me - an indefinable beauty of poise and a plenitude

> that cannot be limmed with words. I

> wrote afterwards a poem1 on him that may give a better idea, but I

> must not get ahead of my story.

>

> I touched his feet and then, without a word, sat down near him on the

> floor and meditated, my heart

> aheave with a strange exaltation which deepened by and by into an

> ineffable peace which beggars

> description. My monthold gloom and misgivings, doubts and

> questionings, melted away like mist before

> sunrise, till I felt I was being cradled on the crest of a flawless

> peace in a vast ocean of felicity and light. I

> have to use superlatives here as I am trying to describe as best I can

> my experience of an ineffable bliss

> and peace which lasted for hours and hours. I can well remember how

> deep was the gratefulness I felt

> towards the Maharshi on that sleepless and restful night as I

> reclined, bathed in peace, in an easy chair

> under the stars at which I gazed and gazed in an ecstasy of tears. And

> I recalled a pregnant saying of his:

> "Just be. All is in you. Only a veil stands between. You have only to

> rend the veil and then, well, just be."

>

> I had found this favourite remark of his rather cryptic heretofore.

> But in that moment I understood for the

> first time and wrote a poem in homage to the Maharshi.1

> _________________________

> 1 - This poem has already been published in The Mountain Path of April

> 1964, p, 87

>

> To Sri Ramana Maharshi*

> By Dilip Kumar Roy

>

> A face that's still, like silent cloudless blue,

> And eyes that even as stars drip holiness

> Won from a source beyond our ken - a new

> Messenger Thou, in this age, of a grace

>

> Men ache for and, withal, are terrified

> When it shines near - wan puppets of fool senses,

> That would disown the soul's faith - even deride

> The Peace they crave yet fear - for Life's false dances

>

> And siren rhythms beguile the multitude!

> And there they woo Time's whirls and wheels - for what?

> At best a reeling moment - an interlude

> Of half-lit laughter dogged by tears - of Fate

>

> O Son of Dawn! who only knowest the Sun,

> And through His eye of Light see'st all that lies

> Revealed - a flawless plenitude which none

> But Son's own children ever might surmise

>

> For only the chosen few so far have won

> The Truth that shines beyond world's wounds and cries

> Who see Thee throned in high dominion

> Of Self's invulnerable Verities.

> _____________

>

> * From the Golden Jubilee Souvenir, Sri Ramanasramam, 1946.

>

> advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote:

> > Namaste Harsha

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 20, 2001

Namaste,

I can only recommend you to read Frank Maiello's description:

http://digital.net/~egodust/freedom.rtf

[Whether this meets the criteria of 'authenticity' determined by

scholars, you will have to decide for yourself!]

Regards,

Sunder

advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote:

>

December 20, 2001

The nature of Nirvikalpa is known clearly only when the Self is Known. Self

is Nirvikalpa. Nirvikalpa is simply a term which means "without kalpas" or

"without thoughts" or "without imagination", etc. Self is beyond words,

thoughts, feelings, and imagination. Yet, it is not a state of

unconsciousness like deep sleep. Those who equate Nirvikalpa Samadhi with

deep sleep and make all sorts of pronouncements have only known and enjoyed

the Self-bliss in complete unconsciousness of deep sleep. Self, however, is

never unconscious, its nature being pure consciousness itself.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is completely different from all types of Savikalpa

Samadhis. In Nirvikalpa, the seed "I" itself vanishes. No one remains to

know anything. There is only Pure Self-Knowledge, in continuous knowing of

It Self. Its nature is that of Sat-Chit-Ananda.

Self is fullness of consciousness, fully and perpetually transparent to

itself as one whole. That is Sahaj. Sahaj means natural. Consciousness is

the nature of Self. Consciousness is natural to the Self. When the Self

rests in its natural state spontaneously and all effort has disappeared,

that is called Sahaj. The beauty of Nirvikalpa Samadhi lies in allowing us

to clearly recognize the perpetual Self-knowing in all states as it is only

the Self knowing It Self in all states of modifications of the mind and all

states of consciousness.

The truth is Kathiji that no matter how clever the terminology and how

subtle the expression of the experience of the Self, it misses the mark. It

is because the Self has no point of Reference in experience being *It Self*

the very Foundation on which All experience appears to take place..

>From Atma Vidya states...(Sage of Arunachala).

"When you have not understood yourself, what is the point in understanding

other things? When you have understood yourself, what else is there to

understand?"

Love to all

Harsha

K Kathirasan NCS [kkathir]

Thursday, December 20, 2001 7:55 PM

advaitin

RE: Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

Namaste Sunder-ji

Thanks for the quotes. Nirvikalpa Samadhi must be a wonderful experience

from the way I see in the quotes. But the question is how is it possible

for a person to know the Self to be Satchitananda swarupam in Nirvikalpa

Samadhi. What happens in that state? If that mindless state confers

knowledge, then who is the knower?

December 21, 2001

hariH OM!

we're all living divine roles. we're *all* jnanis. no.

we're all alone -> al-one -> all one -> we're ONE jnani;

ONE brahman, the lone Reality. the teachings are clear.

as harshaji pointed out, nirvikalpa samadhi is our true

state, our substratum Self; whose relative jivatman in

space-time comes to believe in the works of ego-Mind,

fallen from that holistic Absolute. in the form of

brahman's [projection] leela, as eternal--yes, exactly!:

Entertainment. this is the best that can be alluded to

despite the arcane sophistry via poetic flights divined.

wherever the Mind goes or appears to take us; so long as

the Substratum connection is experientially maintained,

the events we're [*appearing* to be] witnessing can have

no abiding adverse effect on our awareness. no matter how

much it seems and we [in the moment] hence believe(!) in

the pangs of heartbreak, our source satchidananda--unalloyed

consciousness (shuddachit)--prevails. furthermore, as and

if they feign adversely affecting what seems [in awesome,

incomprehensibly strange yet mysteriously wondrous(!) AND

VITALLY NECESSARY moments of forgetfulness common to most

of us world jnanis] as an exclusive band of experiential

awareness, is in truth irrelevant anyway(!), simply because

our awareness is only ever a temporal appearance on its

foundation in pure Consciousness. snake on rope phenomenon.

this is all needs be learned .. so i say guru arunachalasiva

bhagavan ramana dakshinamoorthi drilled relentlessly into my

defiant skull 1968.

therefore at no time is suffering a reality, EVEN THOUGH

IT SEEMS TO BE BY ALL reasonable INCOMING DATA. (thing is,

the petty affair of Reason is not invited to the holistic

experience of parabrahmam's Reality.)

this, the sastras and sages tell us, is the unchallengeable

because inscrutable recognition had after moksha, in whose

wake flows unfathomable silence in the Heart of the zen idiot.

we are collectively THAT, regardless what we think or believe.

hariH hariH OM namo bhagavate sri ramanaya!

December 21, 2001

advaitin, "sunderh" <sunderh> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> The quotations are slef-explanatory.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

>

Thanks Sri Sunderji for posting the quotations. One significant

aspect of Sri Dilip Kumar Roy's experience narrated in your posting

is the experience of intense joy, bliss and peace in Samadhi.

>>

I have to use superlatives here as I am trying to describe as best I

can my experience of an ineffable bliss and peace which lasted for

hours and hours.

>>

Nothing is likely to help focus the mind and spur the sadhaka

(meditatior) forward as a direct experience of intense joy. Anybody

who has been initiated into true meditation would start experiencing

the peace and some level of joy even at a very early stage, long

before attaining any type of Samadhi.

On the subject of Experiences, while there are lots of books that

discuss Samadhi, there are very few actual, personal experiences

available to the average sadhaka.

I would like to post one such experience narrated in the commentary

on Yoga Taravali, a rare treatise on Yoga by Sankara. The book is

titled "Perfection through Yoga" published by Shri Sharada Trust,

Sringeri in 1994.

=====================================================================

Experiences (from page 141 of the book)

Depending on the technique of meditation employed and the person

practising, experiences do differ though the experience of the

highest Samadhi is similar. I shall confine myself to describing one

experience.

First the body is held erect and the gaze locked, keeping the eyes

more closed than open. After a few moments the thought, "I am of the

nature of consciousness and bliss" is cultivated. Gradually,

awareness of the surroundings and even that of the body fades away.

Breath becomes slower and slower. Great joy is felt as also a

sensation of unlimited expansion. Ignoring the delights of the

experience, the thought, "I am not the experiencer of bliss. I am

bliss itself", is induced. This has to be introduced at the right

time. When done, a sudden transition takes place. That thought works

like a thorn used to remove another thorn that has pierced the sole.

What follows is beyond words. All distinctions of the knower, known

and the act of knowing cease. There is unalloyed bliss, the

experience transcending the realm of the mind. This is Nirvikalpa or

Asamprajnata Samadhi. While initially effort is needed to propel

oneself into that state; subsequent continuance is ensured by the

initial effort aided by one's punya or merit. After a time, which

can be regulated by practice, the mind slowly descends. One feels

that there is nothing apart from oneself and that the world is

merely a bubble on the surface of the ocean that is oneself. Great

joy is felt and the mind is at peace. for a time the body feels as

if it were light like a piece of cotton wool. It takes a little time

before one can resume normal activity.

=====================================================================

Although the above narrative may appear simple and easy to do, one

should be aware that it requires tremendous, sustained efforts for

many, many years (may be even several births) to achieve even the

initial state of meditation where one loses awareness of the body

and surroundings, let alone Samadhi.

Those who are practicing can honestly ask themselves whether they

lose awareness of the surroundings and body completely during

meditation? Remember this is just a preliminary step in the whole

process.

The person who narrated this experience is a very great Yogi and a

disciple of the Sringeri Sankaracharya. About this person, the

Acharyal had this to say during a speech at Bangalore in 1989 in the

context of emphasizing the importance of Sandhya Vandana ( daily

worship):

=====================================================================

There is a discipline of mine. Owing to the special merit acquired

by him in his earlier birth, on his sitting in Samadhi, the acme of

Yoga, he does not get up even when three days have passed. One may

ask, "Has Sandhya Vandanam not got omitted?" He is doing something

that is far superior to Sandhya Vandanam.

LeeNa paRe BrahMani

(He is absorbed in the Supreme Brahman)

I: What was it like when you remained for three days in Samadhi?

Were you aware of day and night?

Disciple: No, I was aware of nothing external. I just abided in that

state.

I: How did you know that three days had passed?

Disciple: I had kept a watch with me. When I got up, I learnt from

it that three days had lapsed.

When he has attained a high state, is it necessary for him to

perform Sandhya Vandanam or to perform Abhisheka to a Shiva Lingam?

No.

On the other hand, suppose there is a person who desires to eat

tiffin, drink coffee and go out and wander in the streets, and also

does all this but remains without performing worship of God. What

can we say to him except "You are a thorough Nastika."

On the other hand, it must be said about this disciple of Mine that

he is the ultimate Astika. Why? Because in Samadhi, he does nothing.

if he were to engage in activities them it might be suggested to him

to do Sandhya Vandanam too. But he does nothing whatsoever; even

food is not needed by him. There do exist such persons.

-- extracted from Acharyal's discourse at Bangalore (2.7.1989) as

published in the book "Divine Discourses"

=====================================================================

posted by Sundar Rajan, a humble disciple

December 21, 2001

advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote:

> Namaste Sunder-ji>

> Thanks for the quotes. Nirvikalpa Samadhi must be a wonderful

experience

> from the way I see in the quotes. But the question is how is it

possible

> for a person to know the Self to be Satchitananda swarupam in

Nirvikalpa

> Samadhi. What happens in that state? If that mindless state confers

> knowledge, then who is the knower?

>

Namaste Kathirasan-ji,

As I had mentioned in my earlier post

advaitin/message/11692, it is indeed

true that there are very few actual narratives of experiences of

Nirvikalpa Samadhi. I had posted one such experience in that message.

Another rare narrative is found in the book "Yoga,

Enlightenment and Perfection" detailing the spiritual disciplines

practised by Sri Abhinava Vidyatheertha Mahaswamigal, 35th Pontiff

(Sankaracharya) of Sringeri Sarada Peetam. This narrative contains

the Acharyal's first experience of Nirvikalpa Samadhi (happened in

1935 when the Acharyal was about 18 years of age)

============ Quote from book =====================================

I reached My place of meditation on the hill around one and half

hours before sunset. Sitting in the siddhasana, I performed two

cycles of pranayama..(Acharyal then describes his meditation

technique on page 173. For sake of brevity I have continued the

narrative from page 174) I felt Myself expanding and becoming like

space. The sense of I nearly vanished and My mind entered Savikalpa-

samadhi.

The bliss was very great. However, with effort, I restrained Myself

from being overwhelmed by it and thought, "I am not the one

experiencing bliss but am bliss itself.". In a trice, a sharp change

occurred. Awareness of the distinction of the concentrator,

concentration and the object of concentration completely

disappeared.

No more was there any sense of individuality or of space,time and

objects. Only Brahman, of the nature of absolute existence, pure

consciousness and ultimate bliss, shone bereft of the

superimposition of even a trace of duality.

After about two hours, the mind descended to the level of savikalpa-

samadhi and mild awareness of the distinction of the

concentrator ,concentration and the object of concentration

reappeared. Though the bliss of savikalpa-samadhi was by far greater

than the joy of any worldly enjoyment, it was nothing compared to

the absolute, non-dual bliss of Nirvikalpa-samadhi. Gradually, I

became lightly aware of the body and of the build up of breathing

that must have almost totally stopped earlier.

When I opened My eyes, I could see the scene in front of Me and yet

did not see it, for I was quite indifferent to the apparent

diversity rooted in names and forms. So clear was the realization

that I was of the very nature of absolute existence that I

apprehended nothing whatsoever as existing apart from Me. Everything

was like bubbles on the ocean that was Myself. When I rose after

some time, My body felt light like cotton wool and as I walked down

the hill, it seemed as if I were on a moving canoe.

After about an hour the apprehension, "I am the Supreme Brahman

other than which there is nothing" stared to slowly weaken from

being on par with perceiving a fruit in one's open palm. However,

even when its attenuation stopped, it was much stronger than it had

been when I had sat down to meditate.

=========== Qute ends ===========================================

Quoted from pages 173-176 of the book "Yoga, Enlightenment and

Perfection" detailing the spiritual disciplines practised by Sri

Abhinava Vidyatheertha Mahaswamigal, 35th Pontiff (Sankaracharya) of

Sringeri Sarada Peetam.

December 25, 2001

Dear All Advaitins,

I am still waiting for the response to KK's question (see below)!

May be the members who experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi found it to be just a

transient state without any effect on the real mayic life and don't want to

speak about it or they found the experience so profound that they could not

describe or talk about it. In either case the silence is deafening!!

-- Vis

-

"K Kathirasan NCS" <kkathir

Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:08 PM

RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

> Perhaps members who

> have experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi can share their experience with us.

>

> Thank you.

>

> Kathi

December 25, 2001

Namaste Visji

Thanks for the reminder. My question still remains unanswered. In fact, my

question was not just limited to the experience of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. But

more of how the 'experiencer' actually concludes that the Atma is indeed

Satchitananda swarupam. Clearly I have understood from the many posts by

Sadanandaji and one more article by Swami Atmanandaji (i believe it was

posted by Sri Ram Chandran) that shastra pramana is the only means to know

the self. But now I am caught in a dilemma as I am increasingly feeling that

Nirvikalpa Samadhi too is another pramana, from the posts of many members

here. As I mentioned earlier, the question to be answered is: 'What happens

in the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi that makes the experiencer conclude that

Atma is indeed Sat (existence eternal), Chit (Consciousness, awareness) and

Ananda (Happiness).

>

> R. Viswanathan [sMTP:drvis]

> Wednesday, December 26, 2001 5:56 AM

> advaitin

> Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> Dear All Advaitins,

> I am still waiting for the response to KK's question (see below)!

> May be the members who experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi found it to be just

> a

> transient state without any effect on the real mayic life and don't want

> to

> speak about it or they found the experience so profound that they could

> not

> describe or talk about it. In either case the silence is deafening!!

> -- Vis

>

> -

> "K Kathirasan NCS" <kkathir

> <advaitin>

> Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:08 PM

> RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> > Perhaps members who

> > have experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi can share their experience with us.

> >

> > Thank you.

> >

> > Kathi

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 25, 2001

Shree KK

Experience is not knowledge. Nirvikalpa - if vikalpa stands of thought

process - nirvikalpa as it normally understood is a thoughtless state - that

eveyone experiences in deep sleep state - that does not involve knowlege.

If you ask anyone plese describe your experience of your deep sleep state,

what one can describe - description involves thought process and that which

is beyond the thought process is beyond expresssion.

If I or anyone can say something it has no meaning unless you have full

faith to accept that that is indeed true. Hence we normally study the

experience of the great saints whom we trust their experience is indeed true

and cofirm to the scriptues.

Please study the response to similar question in "I am that" by Nisargadatta

Maharaj.

We had some few months ago a gentleman who declared that he has realized on

such and such a day. Perhaps he can provide you his direct experience but

you should have complete faith in his words to accept that is what it is.

It is like putting ones finger in live electrical socket and experience the

shock and trying to describe that shoching experience to one nearby - all

that comes out of his mouth is haa haa huuu huuuu mantras only. That is

what is called electric yogo.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

>K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir

>advaitin

>RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:11:43 +0800

>

>Namaste Visji

>

>Thanks for the reminder. My question still remains unanswered. In fact, my

>question was not just limited to the experience of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. But

>more of how the 'experiencer' actually concludes that the Atma is indeed

>Satchitananda swarupam. Clearly I have understood from the many posts by

>Sadanandaji and one more article by Swami Atmanandaji (i believe it was

>posted by Sri Ram Chandran) that shastra pramana is the only means to know

>the self. But now I am caught in a dilemma as I am increasingly feeling

>that

>Nirvikalpa Samadhi too is another pramana, from the posts of many members

>here. As I mentioned earlier, the question to be answered is: 'What

>happens

>in the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi that makes the experiencer conclude that

>Atma is indeed Sat (existence eternal), Chit (Consciousness, awareness) and

>Ananda (Happiness).

>

> > -----Or

_______________

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

December 25, 2001

Namaste Sadanandaji

Thanks for the reply. With respects to you, here is another question sir. If

knowledge alone liberates and the Nirvikalpa Samadhi experience isn't

knowledge, then what is the value of Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

>

> Kuntimaddi Sadananda [sMTP:k_sadananda]

> Wednesday, December 26, 2001 9:45 AM

> advaitin

> RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> Shree KK

>

> Experience is not knowledge. Nirvikalpa - if vikalpa stands of thought

> process - nirvikalpa as it normally understood is a thoughtless state -

> that

> eveyone experiences in deep sleep state - that does not involve knowlege.

>

> If you ask anyone plese describe your experience of your deep sleep state,

>

> what one can describe - description involves thought process and that

> which

> is beyond the thought process is beyond expresssion.

>

> If I or anyone can say something it has no meaning unless you have full

> faith to accept that that is indeed true. Hence we normally study the

> experience of the great saints whom we trust their experience is indeed

> true

> and cofirm to the scriptues.

>

> Please study the response to similar question in "I am that" by

> Nisargadatta

> Maharaj.

>

> We had some few months ago a gentleman who declared that he has realized

> on

> such and such a day. Perhaps he can provide you his direct experience but

>

> you should have complete faith in his words to accept that is what it is.

>

> It is like putting ones finger in live electrical socket and experience

> the

> shock and trying to describe that shoching experience to one nearby - all

> that comes out of his mouth is haa haa huuu huuuu mantras only. That is

> what is called electric yogo.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

>

> >K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir

> >advaitin

> >RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

> >Wed, 26 Dec 2001 09:11:43 +0800

> >

> >Namaste Visji

> >

> >Thanks for the reminder. My question still remains unanswered. In fact,

> my

> >question was not just limited to the experience of Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

> But

> >more of how the 'experiencer' actually concludes that the Atma is indeed

> >Satchitananda swarupam. Clearly I have understood from the many posts by

> >Sadanandaji and one more article by Swami Atmanandaji (i believe it was

> >posted by Sri Ram Chandran) that shastra pramana is the only means to

> know

> >the self. But now I am caught in a dilemma as I am increasingly feeling

> >that

> >Nirvikalpa Samadhi too is another pramana, from the posts of many members

> >here. As I mentioned earlier, the question to be answered is: 'What

> >happens

> >in the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi that makes the experiencer conclude

> that

> >Atma is indeed Sat (existence eternal), Chit (Consciousness, awareness)

> and

> >Ananda (Happiness).

> >

> > > -----Or

>

> _______________

> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 25, 2001

Namaste Viswanathanji,

I experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi when I was 23. It happened after

many years of practice of meditation and self-enquiry. The normal

period of spiritual practice for me per day was between 6 to 12

waking hours and this often continued into sleeping hours.

If I can generalize from my own experience and that of sages who

engaged in long term practice, Nirvikalpa Samadhi comes usually after

going through many different kinds of spiritual experiences and other

Savikalpa Samadhis.

Although, it is not hard to talk of Samadhi and such things, without

actual experience such talk is not meaningful. I find many questions

and comments about Nirvikalpa Samadhi to rest purely on speculation.

Unless a person is a spiritual genius of the caliber of Sri Ramana,

long term spiritual practice of some type is needed to Recognize and

Realize the Self.

Nirvikalpa Samadhi and deep sleep are like night and day. In

Nirvikalpa Samahdi Self Knows It Self By It Self and Through It Self.

It is Fullness of Pure Consciousness and not unconsciousness.

Nirvikalpa takes one beyond intuitive knowledge and Reveals the Self

in Actuality as Pure Sat-Chit-Ananda.

The comments by Sri Shankra in Vivekachudamani on Nirvikalpa Samadhi

and those by Sri Ramana in his recorded conversations on Nirvikalpa

Samahdhi and Sahaj Samahdi are based on the authority of experience.

One can understand the practice the Sahaj state easily after

Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

Love to all

Harsha

advaitin, "R. Viswanathan" <drvis@h...> wrote:

> Dear All Advaitins,

> I am still waiting for the response to KK's question (see below)!

> May be the members who experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi found it to

be just a

> transient state without any effect on the real mayic life and don't

want to

> speak about it or they found the experience so profound that they

could not

> describe or talk about it. In either case the silence is deafening!!

> -- Vis

>

> -

> "K Kathirasan NCS" <kkathir@n...>

> <advaitin>

> Wednesday, December 19, 2001 8:08 PM

> RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> > Perhaps members who

> > have experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi can share their experience

with us.

> >

> > Thank you.

> >

> > Kathi

December 25, 2001

advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote:

> Namaste Sadanandaji

>

> Thanks for the reply. With respects to you, here is another

question sir. If

> knowledge alone liberates and the Nirvikalpa Samadhi experience

isn't

> knowledge, then what is the value of Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

Namasate Kathirasanji,

I think this is the most appropriate question to ask.

Here is my view on this. A few weeks ago I had presented

my views on deep sleep. On those lines and for the same

reasons, it is the transition from Nirvikalpa Samadhi

to and from the wakeup state that is of value to the

sadhana. If one could obtain some conrol on getting

into and out of the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi (which

should correspond with the state of the nirguna brahma)

it will be of great value. If one could get some control

on the process where we fall into the trap of ignorance

would it not be a percious attainment ?

Consider this: Agreed the state of deep sleep is of

little value. But if waking up from deep sleep refreshes

then value of deep sleep cannot be underestimated.

(I write this based on my limited experience with elementary

meditation. Advanced sadhakas with deeper experiences may

be able to provide insights into this.)

Best regards

Shrinivas

December 25, 2001

Namaste Srinivasji,

I agree that the value of deep sleep can only be appreciated when one wakes

up. But here the problem of samsara is not when the mind is absent (in deep

sleep), but when the mind is present in the waking state. In deep sleep

there are no problems for us. All erroneous conclusions like, 'I am a

mortal', 'I am useless', " I am ugly' etc... takes place only in the waking

state. And if these wrong notions are due to my self-ignorance which also

in my waking state, how can a 'mindless' state like Nirvikalpa Samadhi

remove my self-ignorance? This is my question sir. And I believe that for

knowledge to take place there must be a knower (pramata) and an object to be

known (prameya). If in the Nirvikalpa Samadhi state, the mind is negated

then who is the knower or the seer of the Self? I hope I am making sense so

far.

And please pardon me if I sound persistent but I believe I can learn alot by

getting answers from the list members.

>

> sgadkari2001 [sMTP:sgadkari2001]

> Wednesday, December 26, 2001 11:47 AM

> advaitin

> Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote:

> > Namaste Sadanandaji

> >

> > Thanks for the reply. With respects to you, here is another

> question sir. If

> > knowledge alone liberates and the Nirvikalpa Samadhi experience

> isn't

> > knowledge, then what is the value of Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

>

> Namasate Kathirasanji,

>

> I think this is the most appropriate question to ask.

>

> Here is my view on this. A few weeks ago I had presented

> my views on deep sleep. On those lines and for the same

> reasons, it is the transition from Nirvikalpa Samadhi

> to and from the wakeup state that is of value to the

> sadhana. If one could obtain some conrol on getting

> into and out of the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi (which

> should correspond with the state of the nirguna brahma)

> it will be of great value. If one could get some control

> on the process where we fall into the trap of ignorance

> would it not be a percious attainment ?

>

> Consider this: Agreed the state of deep sleep is of

> little value. But if waking up from deep sleep refreshes

> then value of deep sleep cannot be underestimated.

>

> (I write this based on my limited experience with elementary

> meditation. Advanced sadhakas with deeper experiences may

> be able to provide insights into this.)

>

> Best regards

> Shrinivas

>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 25, 2001

Dear KK,

Please see my response attached to your posting below (appropriately

edited)!

-- Vis

-

"K Kathirasan NCS" <kkathir

Tuesday, December 25, 2001 8:09 PM

RE: Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

> Namaste Srinivasji,

>

> And if these wrong notions are due to my self-ignorance which also

> in my waking state, how can a 'mindless' state like Nirvikalpa Samadhi

> remove my self-ignorance?

The mindless state as described with respect to Nirvikalpa Samadhi, I

believe, is a no thought (tranquil) state with total awareness. The normal

mind state (wakeful state as often referred to) is the state of ignorance!

The beauty and calmness of deep ocean is not seen through the constant and

continuous waves pounding on the shores. Same way the "mindless" state of

the Nirvikalpa Samadhi can not be seen through the normal mind.

To give an anlogy: If a cup is kept upside down on the table it can not be

filled with water. If it is set right side up then water can be poured into

it. Same way, the normal mind is so confused and ignorant that it can not

experience anything authentically. But when it is tranquil and with no

thoughts (right side up) then it is totally receptive and can be filled with

bliss etc. etc.

> This is my question sir. And I believe that for

> knowledge to take place there must be a knower (pramata) and an object to

be

> known (prameya). If in the Nirvikalpa Samadhi state, the mind is negated

> then who is the knower or the seer of the Self? I hope I am making sense

so

> far.

The knower or the seer of the Self is the Self itself. In the normal mind

state we have the knower and the known (at least in theory). That is how the

the normal mind (the knower) tries to "understand" Nirvikalpa Samadhi (the

known). It is like visualizing a clean mirror (Nirvikalpa Samadhi) through a

dusty and dirty mirror(the normal mind). When the dust and dirt is wiped out

(ignorance of the limted self is removed) the clean mirror shines

wonderfully (Nirvikalpa Samadhi State shines). The Self is the clean mirror

and it is always shining. However, the dust and dirt accumulated on the Self

by the "normal mind" makes that natural state look like an objective state.

-- Vis

December 25, 2001

Dear Sadanandaji,

"Experience is not knowledge". Can experience lead to knowledge by itself or

through strong faith?

Knowledge is also not experience. Can knowledge lead to experience by itself

or with strong faith?

Is not Nirvikalpa is a state of no thoughts, a state of tranquility, a state

of supreme receptivity, a state of full awareness without the body

reference? If so, how can it be the same as "thoughtless" deep sleep state

wherein there is no awareness whatsoever?

If Nirvikalpa and deep sleep states are same then there arises a real

question of authenticity of Ramana's and Yogananda's descriptions of

Nirvikalpa unless they referenced and conformed to the "right" scriptures.

Is that so?

The electric shock experience can not be described as one is experiencing

pain and suffering! After getting relieved from the plug point one can

describe the experience.

Same way, the Nirvikalpa samadhi can not be described as one experiences the

bliss and beauty. After coming out of it, I would think, one can describe

the experience to some extent. Is it not true?

If the electric shock experience does not conform to the precise definitions

that may be found in scientific papers by trust worthy and authentic

scientists that does not negate the experience.

Is not the same statement holds water for Nirvikalpa, specially when so much

of Scriptures have been destroyed or lost to humanity?

-- Vis

-

"Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda

Wednesday, December 26, 2001 1:44 AM

RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

> Shree KK

>

> Experience is not knowledge. Nirvikalpa - if vikalpa stands of thought

> process - nirvikalpa as it normally understood is a thoughtless state -

that

> eveyone experiences in deep sleep state - that does not involve knowlege.

> If you ask anyone plese describe your experience of your deep sleep state,

> what one can describe - description involves thought process and that

which

> is beyond the thought process is beyond expresssion.

>

> If I or anyone can say something it has no meaning unless you have full

> faith to accept that that is indeed true. Hence we normally study the

> experience of the great saints whom we trust their experience is indeed

true

> and cofirm to the scriptues.

> It is like putting ones finger in live electrical socket and experience

the

> shock and trying to describe that shoching experience to one nearby - all

> that comes out of his mouth is haa haa huuu huuuu mantras only. That is

> what is called electric yogo.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

December 25, 2001

Namaste Viswanathanji

By the very fact that I have to wipe the mirror to see the shine implies

that I am giving the status of Atma to the thoughts. But on the other hand

we say that Atma alone is Satyam and everything else is Mithya (a dependent

reality). Now if that is so, there is not a slight chance of mithya

negating Satyam. But if one contends that the removal of thoughts will

reveal the Atma, then we are giving the status of Mithya to Atma as well. A

simple example is a banana. If you say that to taste the banana I have to

remove the banana peel, then of course both the banana (Atma) and the peel

(thoughts or mithya) must be the same order of reality. But here we are

saying that Atma is Satyam, everything else is Mithya!! The thoughts, the

world, the act of removal etc... are all mithya. Nothing can cover the Atma

because it is Satyam. Can the wave negate water? It is water after all. it

is a matter of knowing NOT experience. Am I right?

>

> R. Viswanathan [sMTP:drvis]

> Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:57 PM

> advaitin

> Re: Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> Dear KK,

> Please see my response attached to your posting below (appropriately

> edited)!

> -- Vis

> -

> "K Kathirasan NCS" <kkathir

> <advaitin>

> Tuesday, December 25, 2001 8:09 PM

> RE: Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> > Namaste Srinivasji,

> >

> > And if these wrong notions are due to my self-ignorance which also

> > in my waking state, how can a 'mindless' state like Nirvikalpa Samadhi

> > remove my self-ignorance?

> The mindless state as described with respect to Nirvikalpa Samadhi, I

> believe, is a no thought (tranquil) state with total awareness. The normal

> mind state (wakeful state as often referred to) is the state of ignorance!

> The beauty and calmness of deep ocean is not seen through the constant and

> continuous waves pounding on the shores. Same way the "mindless" state of

> the Nirvikalpa Samadhi can not be seen through the normal mind.

> To give an anlogy: If a cup is kept upside down on the table it can not be

> filled with water. If it is set right side up then water can be poured

> into

> it. Same way, the normal mind is so confused and ignorant that it can not

> experience anything authentically. But when it is tranquil and with no

> thoughts (right side up) then it is totally receptive and can be filled

> with

> bliss etc. etc.

>

> > This is my question sir. And I believe that for

> > knowledge to take place there must be a knower (pramata) and an object

> to

> be

> > known (prameya). If in the Nirvikalpa Samadhi state, the mind is

> negated

> > then who is the knower or the seer of the Self? I hope I am making

> sense

> so

> > far.

> The knower or the seer of the Self is the Self itself. In the normal mind

> state we have the knower and the known (at least in theory). That is how

> the

> the normal mind (the knower) tries to "understand" Nirvikalpa Samadhi (the

> known). It is like visualizing a clean mirror (Nirvikalpa Samadhi) through

> a

> dusty and dirty mirror(the normal mind). When the dust and dirt is wiped

> out

> (ignorance of the limted self is removed) the clean mirror shines

> wonderfully (Nirvikalpa Samadhi State shines). The Self is the clean

> mirror

> and it is always shining. However, the dust and dirt accumulated on the

> Self

> by the "normal mind" makes that natural state look like an objective

> state.

> -- Vis

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 26, 2001

Shree KK

A quitened but vigilent (underline vigilent) mind is a pre-requisite for any

knowledge. Knowledge occurs by the teaching of 'tat tvam asi' that which

exists even in the state of quiet vigilent mind is one who is aware of the

quite and vigilent mind - that is the sat chit ananda swaruupa which is not

different from my own true nature - Bhagavaan Ramana answers this

beautifully in his upadeshasaara. The quieted mind will come back to old

state if t hat is not reinforced by the knowledge.

I could have provided more detailed answer but for the internet connection

from India here is quite slow and gettting cut frequently.

Hari OM!

Sadananda

>K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir

>advaitin

>RE: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:24:24 +0800

>

>Namaste Sadanandaji

>

>Thanks for the reply. With respects to you, here is another question sir.

>If

>knowledge alone liberates and the Nirvikalpa Samadhi experience isn't

>knowledge, then what is the value of Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

>

> >

>

_______________

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December 26, 2001

Dear KK,

If "I" have the knowledge that "I am Atma" through reading of Scriptures

and listening to teachers and gurus, is that sufficient to "know" the Atma?

That is the question.

Knowledge is accumulated information. The information is out there

externally (like politics, children's stories etc.) and its accumulation

becomes my knowledge. Any one else can also accumulate the same external

information and make it their knowledge. Such knowledge is necessary for

teaching. However the knowledge that "I am Atma" needs more than just

accumulated external information. It needs the totally subjective experience

like Nirvikalpa Samadhi to make that knowledge an absolute fact to the

normal mind. Just belief in the model "I am Atma" is not sufficient, I

think, for the knowing of Atma as a fact.

Sadanandaji probably has described the above point more eloquently and more

accurately in the past.

Given the above clarification to "my thought process" let me respond to some

of your important and interesting points raised in your posting.

-

"K Kathirasan NCS" <kkathir

Tuesday, December 25, 2001 9:30 PM

RE: Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

> Namaste Viswanathanji

>

> By the very fact that I have to wipe the mirror to see the shine implies

> that I am giving the status of Atma to the thoughts. But on the other

hand

> we say that Atma alone is Satyam and everything else is Mithya (a

dependent

> reality). Now if that is so, there is not a slight chance of mithya

> negating Satyam. But if one contends that the removal of thoughts will

> reveal the Atma, then we are giving the status of Mithya to Atma as well.

It is not "removal of thoughts" that will reveal Atma. It is the quietening

of the normal mind (natural cessation of thoughts) that reveal Atma since it

is then that there is full receptivity without interference.

The mirror analogy was to just give an example how we are clouded with our

ignorance (dust on the mirror) and how the shiny mirror (the substratum)

below the dust is shining by itself. My intention in that analogy was to

equate the removal of dust to removal of ignorance, not removal of thoughts.

The fact remains that we are in our body-mind complex with its ignorance and

this ignorance is so dense that it can hide the shining substratum, the

Self. It is similar to my small palm hiding the Sun and its brightness. It

does not mean that my palm has the same status as the luminous Sun. But it

only means that our perception (which include our normal mind) is faulty

(the Sun is luminous and "I" just don't know it yet).

> A simple example is a banana. If you say that to taste the banana I have

to

> remove the banana peel, then of course both the banana (Atma) and the peel

> (thoughts or mithya) must be the same order of reality.

For the ignorant mind-body complex the peel is the only reality. The banana

fruit itself is hidden and it does not exist! For a man with knowledge (from

books and otherwise) the fruit is as much a reality as the peel. He has the

knowledge, but not yet tasted the sweetness of the banana. The knowledge

helps. Is that knowledge sufficient for knowing the actual taste without

subjective experience?

>But here we are

> saying that Atma is Satyam, everything else is Mithya!! The thoughts, the

> world, the act of removal etc... are all mithya. Nothing can cover the

Atma

> because it is Satyam.

When I have just the information that Sun is luminous that knowledge in

itself is not sufficient to know that Sun is truely luminous, because I can

easily hide it with my palm. Once I remove the palm I can experience the

Sun. Now it becomes factual and subjective knowledge. Then I know the palm

is just ignorance and it has to be removed to see the Sun. Once I know

through knowledge and experience (or vice versa) that the Sun is luminous

then nothing can hide it! Same way once I know through experience and

knowledge (or vice versa) that Atma is the only Satyam then nothing can

cover that Atma. Knowledge gives a foundation and experience provides the

authenticity. That is the difference between me ( I can have the knowledge)

and the great Saints( they have the experience and knowledge)!!

> Can the wave negate water? It is water after all. it

> is a matter of knowing NOT experience. Am I right?

Even the Scriptures we believe in as Truth are based on the experiences of

great Saints, not just some revealed texts. The books came later!

The knowledge is different from knowing. The farmer can be obtained from

books and teachers. The latter can be only through experience.

To conclude this thought process -- Is it fair to say that experience is as

much necessary as knowledge for authenticity? It is that experience of

Nirvikalpa Samadhi you were asking for from the members. Atleast one

responded so far (Harsha, 12/25/2001). I hope many more will do so soon.

Pardon my lengthy response. I am still in the knowledge state.The experience

state may make me less wordy!!!

December 26, 2001

Dear Harsha,

Thanks very much for your info. on your personal experience of Nirvikalpa

Samadhi. Did the knowledge occur before or after your experience? That may

be an interesting and relevant point for this list.

It is true most discussions appear to be speculations (including mine!) on

Nirvikalpa Samadhi (and other topic also!!). However, some sound so

authentic and go to question the veracity of Ramana and others similar to

him. I often wonder where does Shridi Sai Baba fit in!!

I am glad you put it bluntly "Nirvikalpa Samadhi and deep sleep are like

night and day". Some Advaitin postings nearly condemned Nirvikalpa as

nothing more than deep unconscious sleep. That kind of woke me up and

triggered my postings, which are not necessarily based on referenced

Sanskrit Scriptures.

Thanks once again. Hope several other Advaitins will follow your example and

talk of their personal experiences in addition to their knowledge.

-- Vis

-

"harshaimtm" <harsha-hkl

Tuesday, December 25, 2001 7:38 PM

Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

> Namaste Viswanathanji,

>

> I experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi when I was 23. It happened after

> many years of practice of meditation and self-enquiry. The normal

> period of spiritual practice for me per day was between 6 to 12

> waking hours and this often continued into sleeping hours.

>

> If I can generalize from my own experience and that of sages who

> engaged in long term practice, Nirvikalpa Samadhi comes usually after

> going through many different kinds of spiritual experiences and other

> Savikalpa Samadhis.

>

> Although, it is not hard to talk of Samadhi and such things, without

> actual experience such talk is not meaningful. I find many questions

> and comments about Nirvikalpa Samadhi to rest purely on speculation.

>

> Nirvikalpa Samadhi and deep sleep are like night and day. In

> Nirvikalpa Samahdi Self Knows It Self By It Self and Through It Self.

> It is Fullness of Pure Consciousness and not unconsciousness.

> Nirvikalpa takes one beyond intuitive knowledge and Reveals the Self

> in Actuality as Pure Sat-Chit-Ananda.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

December 26, 2001

Namaste Viswanathanji

>From the discussions I learn that our premises are different. One school of

thought believes that thru Nirvikalpa Samadhi one can gain knowledge of the

Self while the other holds that Nirvikalpa Samadhi cannot deliver the

knowledge. The argument for the latter is strengthened with the conviction

that Atma can never be objectified or experienced because it is the ONLY

invariable experience in all the 3 states of experiences i.e. waking,

dreaming & deep sleep. So the Atma experience is 'accomplishing the

accomplished', like the 10th man story.

>From what I have learnt, knowing 'I am Atma' and being established in it is

enough to be released from Samsara. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not a

pre-requisite for Moksha. I believe we are also yet to discuss how the

Samadhi experience brings upon the experiencer the knowledge of Atma being

Satchitananda swarupam.

I have one more question. If Nirvikalpa Samadhi is all that is necessary,

then I don't understand why Lord Krishna wasted 17 chapters in the Gita

teaching Arjuna. If all our problems are solved just by Nirvikalpa Samadhi,

then what Lord Krishna should have done is to make Arjuna have that

experience of Samadhi.?

>

> R. Viswanathan [sMTP:drvis]

> Thursday, December 27, 2001 4:08 AM

> advaitin

> Re: Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> Dear KK,

> If "I" have the knowledge that "I am Atma" through reading of Scriptures

> and listening to teachers and gurus, is that sufficient to "know" the

> Atma?

> That is the question.

> Knowledge is accumulated information. The information is out there

> externally (like politics, children's stories etc.) and its accumulation

> becomes my knowledge. Any one else can also accumulate the same external

> information and make it their knowledge. Such knowledge is necessary for

> teaching. However the knowledge that "I am Atma" needs more than just

> accumulated external information. It needs the totally subjective

> experience

> like Nirvikalpa Samadhi to make that knowledge an absolute fact to the

> normal mind. Just belief in the model "I am Atma" is not sufficient, I

> think, for the knowing of Atma as a fact.

>

> Sadanandaji probably has described the above point more eloquently and

> more

> accurately in the past.

>

> Given the above clarification to "my thought process" let me respond to

> some

> of your important and interesting points raised in your posting.

>

> -

> "K Kathirasan NCS" <kkathir

> <advaitin>

> Tuesday, December 25, 2001 9:30 PM

> RE: Re: My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

>

> > Namaste Viswanathanji

> >

> > By the very fact that I have to wipe the mirror to see the shine implies

> > that I am giving the status of Atma to the thoughts. But on the other

> hand

> > we say that Atma alone is Satyam and everything else is Mithya (a

> dependent

> > reality). Now if that is so, there is not a slight chance of mithya

> > negating Satyam. But if one contends that the removal of thoughts will

> > reveal the Atma, then we are giving the status of Mithya to Atma as

> well.

> It is not "removal of thoughts" that will reveal Atma. It is the

> quietening

> of the normal mind (natural cessation of thoughts) that reveal Atma since

> it

> is then that there is full receptivity without interference.

> The mirror analogy was to just give an example how we are clouded with our

> ignorance (dust on the mirror) and how the shiny mirror (the substratum)

> below the dust is shining by itself. My intention in that analogy was to

> equate the removal of dust to removal of ignorance, not removal of

> thoughts.

> The fact remains that we are in our body-mind complex with its ignorance

> and

> this ignorance is so dense that it can hide the shining substratum, the

> Self. It is similar to my small palm hiding the Sun and its brightness. It

> does not mean that my palm has the same status as the luminous Sun. But it

> only means that our perception (which include our normal mind) is faulty

> (the Sun is luminous and "I" just don't know it yet).

>

> > A simple example is a banana. If you say that to taste the banana I

> have

> to

> > remove the banana peel, then of course both the banana (Atma) and the

> peel

> > (thoughts or mithya) must be the same order of reality.

> For the ignorant mind-body complex the peel is the only reality. The

> banana

> fruit itself is hidden and it does not exist! For a man with knowledge

> (from

> books and otherwise) the fruit is as much a reality as the peel. He has

> the

> knowledge, but not yet tasted the sweetness of the banana. The knowledge

> helps. Is that knowledge sufficient for knowing the actual taste without

> subjective experience?

>

> >But here we are

> > saying that Atma is Satyam, everything else is Mithya!! The thoughts,

> the

> > world, the act of removal etc... are all mithya. Nothing can cover the

> Atma

> > because it is Satyam.

> When I have just the information that Sun is luminous that knowledge in

> itself is not sufficient to know that Sun is truely luminous, because I

> can

> easily hide it with my palm. Once I remove the palm I can experience the

> Sun. Now it becomes factual and subjective knowledge. Then I know the palm

> is just ignorance and it has to be removed to see the Sun. Once I know

> through knowledge and experience (or vice versa) that the Sun is luminous

> then nothing can hide it! Same way once I know through experience and

> knowledge (or vice versa) that Atma is the only Satyam then nothing can

> cover that Atma. Knowledge gives a foundation and experience provides the

> authenticity. That is the difference between me ( I can have the

> knowledge)

> and the great Saints( they have the experience and knowledge)!!

>

> > Can the wave negate water? It is water after all. it

> > is a matter of knowing NOT experience. Am I right?

> Even the Scriptures we believe in as Truth are based on the experiences of

> great Saints, not just some revealed texts. The books came later!

> The knowledge is different from knowing. The farmer can be obtained from

> books and teachers. The latter can be only through experience.

>

> To conclude this thought process -- Is it fair to say that experience is

> as

> much necessary as knowledge for authenticity? It is that experience of

> Nirvikalpa Samadhi you were asking for from the members. Atleast one

> responded so far (Harsha, 12/25/2001). I hope many more will do so soon.

>

> Pardon my lengthy response. I am still in the knowledge state.The

> experience

> state may make me less wordy!!!

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

December 26, 2001

Namaskar Sri Viswanathanji and Sri KK,

I have been following this chain with interest. Here are a few of my

thoughts on this issue. Please note that these are only my viewpoints

and my current understanding of these things. I would appreciate if

any of the learned members and advanced Sadhaks would please correct

me where I am wrong:

1) Sankara has made it adequately clear everywhere, that

what liberates is Knowledge alone. The basic error, the ignorance,

which bestows Reality upon the unreal Snake when the Reality is the

underlying Rope, has to be corrected. The means may be many but in the

end, the Snake has to be seen as False in the Right Light. What

remains is the TRUTH.

2) Here, by Knowledge, we mean seeing the False as the False (seeing

all objectification as dependent reality, Mithya). The Self Evident

knower who sees the False as False alone remains as the Satyam. This

seeing is not 'Accumulated knowledge'. It is an Instantaneous Seeing

(Apperception, if I may use that word) and Abidance in That.

3) The only reason why experience (Nirvikalpa Samadhi) may be

necessary to re-inforce this Knowledge is that the Knowledge was not

complete to begin with and it needs further re-inforcement. It is akin

to 'heating' the uncooked clay pot in an oven to 'bake' it. If it is

already 'baked', do we need to heat it further?

4) The dangers of relying purely on experience to 'complete' ones

knowledge are:

a) It causes further 'Becoming'. I want to 'Become' the experiencer of

Nirvikalpa Samadhi. This becoming has given further reality to the

False notion of the 'Seeker' and further reality to the False notion

of the 'Sought Experience or State' as being something separate from

the seeker.

b) Even if I Now enter Nirvikalpa Samadhi, an hour later, or days

later, that experience would only be memory. This experience needs to

transform into firm unbroken abidance in That. Without that, the

experience gave me temporary Bliss of the Highest and left me

thirsting for more.

c) What happens when situations in life are not conducive to

Nirvikalpa Samadhi? Is one to rely only on memory for recalling that

experience and be convinced of the Truth? One needs to Know (or rather

Be) That Here and Now!

This is my understanding, but I may be wrong.

Warm Regards,

--Satyan.

advaitin, K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir@n...> wrote:

> Namaste Viswanathanji

>

> From the discussions I learn that our premises are different. One

school of

> thought believes that thru Nirvikalpa Samadhi one can gain knowledge

of the

> Self while the other holds that Nirvikalpa Samadhi cannot deliver the

> knowledge. The argument for the latter is strengthened with the

conviction

> that Atma can never be objectified or experienced because it is the ONLY

> invariable experience in all the 3 states of experiences i.e. waking,

> dreaming & deep sleep. So the Atma experience is 'accomplishing the

> accomplished', like the 10th man story.

>

> From what I have learnt, knowing 'I am Atma' and being established

in it is

> enough to be released from Samsara. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is not a

> pre-requisite for Moksha. I believe we are also yet to discuss how the

> Samadhi experience brings upon the experiencer the knowledge of Atma

being

> Satchitananda swarupam.

>

> I have one more question. If Nirvikalpa Samadhi is all that is

necessary,

> then I don't understand why Lord Krishna wasted 17 chapters in the Gita

> teaching Arjuna. If all our problems are solved just by Nirvikalpa

Samadhi,

> then what Lord Krishna should have done is to make Arjuna have that

> experience of Samadhi.?

>

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My thoughts on Samadhi & Advaita

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